Jump to content
Goodbye Jesus

Ongoing Conversation With My Fundie Dad


Former Follier

Recommended Posts

You aren't prying or prodding, you hit the nail on the head. He was always expressed his disapproval of my decisions in a passive aggressive way, cloaked behind his piety. That is why I'm confronting him now. I've healed enough to try to show him that his spiritual worldview notonly influences his desion-making poorly but all of his relationships as well. By attributing everything good to God and everything evil to Satan, he is not living his life but biding his time... the only time he will ever get. His life is completely without substance. I'm trying to show him that it can be substantial if he only opens his eyes and his mind.

May I make a bold suggestion? If you focus on his spiritual views as being wrong, in that it influences him, you're doing what he's doing which is shifting the focus away from his choices to religion having the power. He is evading personal responsibility in a sense by claiming to be obeying God, and you are allowing him to continue not looking at himself by focusing on God as influencing his choices. You need to focus on him as a human, not the merits of belief or disbelief in God. Lots of people believe in God and can be gracious and open-minded individuals. This is about his responses to you, and that comes from him - not his belief in God.

 

It's a hard thing to differentiate sometimes, but how I look at it is that people choose an image of God that fits them. If they are gracious and understanding, their God will be too. If they are uptight about sticking close to the traditions and conventions of their culture and are frightened by variation, the God the cling to will look a lot like them. Each of these Gods will reinforce the beliefs they want to choose because it suits their personalities. By focusing on God with them, you allow them to externalize and excuse their actions. The argument then becomes about the merits of that "God" (which has as many faces as every human alive does), and much less about them. This is about him and your relationship with him. Don't make it about God. Talk to him about him, not his beliefs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 66
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Former Follier

    18

  • Grandpa Harley

    9

  • R. S. Martin

    8

  • Kirangel

    6

I absolutely respect your advice and appreciate you for offering it. The one thing that hinders that kind of exchange between my father and I is his belief in God. It is his sole means with which he excuses any and all of his actions. He lives according to God's Word. If I object to the way in which he lives then I am, by association, objecting with God's Word. This is his understanding, anyway. Remember, he is a fundamentalist. His God is a loving and gracious God but he is also a God of wrath, anger and envy. Somehow this all makes sense to him. He can justify any of his actions with his God belief.

 

In order to make him turn to introspection, I need to make a few good direct hits at his foundational views... his God belief. Once it is shaky, I may be able to sneak in a few punches about his own personal outlook on life and how he has made his God in his own image, not vice versa. Perhaps then he will be able to see that his God is merely a convenient construct to shift the blame to someone who is, by definition, blameless. He can't be held culpible in his actions if he is living according to God's Word, now can he?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I loved it when your father said:

If the Bible means nothing, then you won't have to answer to God for the way you've chosen to live your life.

It's ironic because it is Christians who imagine that they will be able to escape the divine judgement for sin. They believe that they will be justified by faith. So, Christians believe the Bible, and for this reason, they are sure that they won't have to answer for the wicked things they have done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How about a don't ask don't tell policy? B) It'll work fine, for at least a little while...as a quick fix.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On wanting to convert parents away from xianity as they want to convert you back to xianity:

 

The peril here, and also what makes it more difficult to actually succeed, is that almost certainly xianity fulfills some kind of need in a lifelong fundy your father's age. I've noticed a curve here. Lots of us on this board deconverted in our teens, there's still a pretty strong showing in our 20s, a weak showing in our 30s, the odd person who became an apostate in his/her 40s. There are a few who deconverted after many years, but to hold on so long, so strongly typically indicates:

 

1) A fundamental fear of having to figure out the answers yourself rather than having them handed to you in black and white.

 

2) A need to have an external structure imposed on you and your base instincts.

 

3) A need to the comforts and security xianity has given you, eternal life in paradise, the illusion of a god to help you through the bad times, etc.

 

4) After this many years on the fundy end of religion, you also have an extreme amount of indoctrination to overcome.

 

It's not GOOD to subscribe to fairy tales and be condemned to live in bondage to them, but it's more than most can handle to confront and free themselves from them.

 

On grandparents taking a softer stance on discipline with their grandchildren than they did with their children:

 

That may depend on the grandparent. When my daughter was two before last contact with my mother, she criticized us for not hitting our daughter.

 

On coming across to sound as though you were questioning:

 

You don't sound to me like you're questioning TOO much. You sound like you're coming off more as fair and open to whatever REASONABLE argument you may hear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is his sole means with which he excuses any and all of his actions. He lives according to God's Word. If I object to the way in which he lives then I am, by association, objecting with God's Word. This is his understanding, anyway. Remember, he is a fundamentalist. His God is a loving and gracious God but he is also a God of wrath, anger and envy. Somehow this all makes sense to him. He can justify any of his actions with his God belief.

 

In order to make him turn to introspection, I need to make a few good direct hits at his foundational views... his God belief. Once it is shaky, I may be able to sneak in a few punches about his own personal outlook on life and how he has made his God in his own image, not vice versa. Perhaps then he will be able to see that his God is merely a convenient construct to shift the blame to someone who is, by definition, blameless.

 

FF, I can relate, my mother bless her heart lives by the same standard. Only.. usually when I point something out that is against her faith, or something that questions it... she doesn't blame me persey, she believes Satan is using me as a tool to get her to slip-up. If I help her, she believes gawd used me as a tool to assist her. I'm merely a pawn in her spiritual war games. She doesn't think I have any control over myself I guess..

 

She has in the past started praying out loud to prevent from hearing me. This particular battle of logic will never be won with her. I know in my heart of hearts if she would only listen to reason she wouldn't be the emotional hostage she is to this crippling dogma. Anything in life that goes bad, she believes gawd is telling her to repent for something or other. On the same venue however, she will do whatever she 'feels' gawd wants her to.. even if it defies logic and informs us all that she's doing it for the greater glory, if we have questions we can talk to gawd.. she only needs to answer to the father. The more I press the more she feels it's gawd testing her.

 

Religion (faith) is her crutch. I detest it more then I can type out here. Maybe for reasons unknown to me, she needs that crutch as a way to see a light at the end of the tunnel, Or maybe she holds on to it dearly as a get out of hell free card. I hate the fact that she deludes herself. I hate the fact that she believes lies and fear mongering. I detest the fact that she gives more credit and respect to an imaginary being. I will never be able to compete with "god". He isn't built on facts or reason he's built on emotional bullshit. I wish you much luck in opening your dad's eyes. One less person in the dogma the better. I hope your dad is more grounded in truth and reason then in faith and emotion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You don't sound to me like you're questioning TOO much. You sound like you're coming off more as fair and open to whatever REASONABLE argument you may hear.

 

The entire post is Outstanding SNM!! You're very wise! :)

 

I also agree with how FF came across as reasonable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Former Follier, that scene where you took your daughter away from the party and then your dad came along and corrected you--that really got to me.

 

1. I respect him for waiting to criticize you till your daughter went to play.

 

2. I thought he would say you should have spanked her.

 

3. It's NONE OF HIS BUSINESS.

 

Whew! What does he expect of you? You teach your child to be a disciplined person and he says you're expecting too much. You ask him honest questions about his beliefs and he says you're justifying your sinful life. Which is it? Are atheists good or are they evil? If an atheist is evil, why would he teach his daughter self-discipline? If an atheist is good, then why accuse him of a sinful life?

 

Sorry, this is your family. It just sort of got personal for me. It does give me some idea of the "oppressive influence" your father is in your life.

 

I am also thinking if he were in any kind of hurry to back up his religious claims he would have thought about it while he was doing all these other things, then when he had a minute to sit at the computer he could have answered one of your questions. All he did was make excuses for not answering. I am somewhat surprised, though, that he keeps responding at all, that he pretends to want to respond. I don't quite understand what's going on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't quite understand what's going on.

That makes two of us, Ruby. I'm just trying to sow seeds of doubt in him though not overtly. I am attempting to come of as "questioning" or "searching" in order to keep the lines of communication open. As you've all read in the first post, he will shut down when he feels threatened. However, I'm appealing to his pride by asking him for guidance and wisdom. Tactics... that's all it is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hope your dad is more grounded in truth and reason then in faith and emotion.

Thanks for the post, Japedo. I was almost certain that no one would be able to relate before I decided to start this topic but have been pleasantly (or unpleasantly, rather) surprised.

 

What's funny is that my dad is such a rational, analytical person in every other facet of his life. He is a design engineer and is the most methodical and skeptical person I've ever met... except with his faith. When I was living at home, he would always scrutinize and discredit tales depicted on shows like "Unsolved Mysteries"... especially when they were stories about the paranormal. He refused to believe in extraterrestrial life but believes in a Jewish savior that was born of a virgin, who was fully human and fully God and sent himself to die for a race of creatures that he knew would warrant his suicidal blood in order to escape a place of eternal torment that he created for with us in mind. Sounds plausible. :twitch:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Somewhere on this forum I read a post from a person who said what her mind was like when she was a Christian. She said there was a partition--one for religion and another for everyday life and analysis. Sounds like your father does the same.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

Sorry to rehabilitate this topic but I just wanted to let everyone know that it's an ongoing deal with my dad. He purchased several apologetic books on Amazon and had them shipped to me so I'm in the process of reading them. I only made it through the first chapter of More Than A Carpenter by Josh McDowell before I had pages of highlighted material to bring to my dad.

 

Now, for those of you who think I may be backing him into a corner, he sent me these books of his own volition and I take that to mean that continued dialogue on these topics are welcomed; my email states as much:

 

Regarding our discussion last Saturday, I felt I needed to clarify one of many points: When I stated that it's likely that Jesus never existed, you've got to understand that I'm speaking from a historical perspective. He absolutely exists in the Bible and in the minds of his followers; whether or not he truly lived and breathed is up for debate.

 

The reason why I bring this up is because in reading Josh McDowell's little apologetic handbook More Than A Carpenter, he makes the presupposition that the reader believes in the literal existence of Jesus. Now, I've been accused by you of holding presuppositions but this example is on the grandest scale. As a thinking person, you can understand that when you posit a claim you bear the burden of proof. In essence, you make the claim you back it up with supporting evidence.

 

So my question to you, can you provide me with any contemporaneous accounts supporting the existence of Jesus. Be careful to do your research before directing me to the Gospels. If you look at the dates of the Gospels, they were written decades after Jesus' purported resurrection. McDowell claims that there are three questions you could ask about Jesus, "Lord, liar or lunatic" however these questions are based on the aforementioned presupposition. There are other options; he could've been a fictitious character created by men with definite motivations, a real person who was posthumously attributed with supernatural powers by perhaps the same people that created him as a person with much of the same motivations, etc.

 

I would also like to point out that Christianity is a religion, contrary to what you would like to believe. McDowell found it necessary to differentiate between Christianity and all other world religions in his book however, if you were to look the word up in the dictionary, my claim would be found to be substantiated due especially to the shared dogmatic views held by most Christians. I am reading the book you sent me and understand it as a welcome for further dialogue. I am disappointed that you feel the need to direct me to literature and websites and can't give me your honest opinion on things. It feels as though you are trying to slough me off. Try to set something up with (a mutually respected fundamentalist Christian acquantiance -- his name was omitted for privacy's sake).

My dad's response follows:

 

I'll respond first to your last comment. There are several reasons why I respond to your questions by directing you to literature and websites.

 

First, because I have trouble conversing with you about these topics. You continually cut me off in mid-sentence, and then move on to another topic before you give me a chance to fully address the previous one.

 

Second, because I continue to have strong doubts about your sincerity. You seem to already have a strongly-held opinion about every topic we discuss. Why discuss any issue if your mind is already closed and nailed shut to other opinions or evidence?

 

Third, to fully address any major topic to the extent it deserves requires a lot of research to back it up adequately. I might be willing to do more of that if I had the perception that my work would truly be given due consideration. Also, I am a slow typist, and it is difficult and time-consuming to study up on a topic, digest it fully and then type it out in a readable and lucid manner. Why should I go to that trouble when others have already done the research, formed the thoughts and written the books?

 

And last, it is just very troubling to me to be continually bombarded by you with opinions, accusations and assertions that are offensive to me. And all of this coming from my very own son! You would have had all the answers to your questions already if you had only been listening during the first 18 years of your life.

 

As far as setting something up with Mr. Silvey, I don't think I want to be a party to that, given my own experiences with trying to discuss spiritual things with you. But you are of course free to contact him and meet with him on your own. He has told me that he was willing to talk with you.

 

Regarding your comment about the existence of Jesus, I think if you will do a modest amount of research you will find there is more verification of the fact that Jesus existed than any other major figure in the ancient world. I know of no scholarly research that claims otherwise. Very simply, the fact that Jesus existed is essentially unquestioned, regardless of which belief system is subscribed to.

Thoughts?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One comment, you don't have to apologise for revisiting this topic matey... it's what the board's about.

 

 

 

I can't see why he played the 'Dad' card...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, he played the "Dad card" as a sort of supplementary action to his "I'm not judging you, God is" method of conveying disapproval which was attested to earlier in the thread. It seems as though he can only tell me what Jesus wants him to tell me but when I reject those teachings I am attacking him, not his God-belief. Did that make any sense? Probably not. :sighs:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's a better way of saying it: He expects me to take his chastising impersonally because they're God's words, not his. He further expects me to not question his beliefs because of our relationship and the fact that he takes it personally. The Christian dichotomy.

 

This post just goes to show that it pays to wait until after you've had that (name your vice here... for me, cigarette) to post to a public forum.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First one made perfect sense... then point up that Dad... you ain't dissin' him, but if he wants to tell you what Jesus told him then he can tell Jesus that you're dissing Jesus, but you're not dissing him...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I understand. My mother takes it as a personal attack if I disagree with her. Perhaps, your father doesn't see you as being your own person, but as an extention of himself.

 

Josh McDowell? Oh, that's so bad. In my determination to hang on to my Christian faith, I read him. I wouldn't even call him an apologist, dipshit idiot would be a better term. Reading his books helped me deconvert even faster.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Former Follier, that made perfect sense. Your dad writes quite well. His feelings really came through. I think he meant for it to be that way. All he's got left is the guilt trip tactics. You're your own man and he knows it on some level but he can't have it. Like someone said, he sees you as an extension of himself. I don't understand that but it's the only thing that makes sense in some cases. Not only my mom, but also my siblings (who are all younger than me) seem to see me as an extension of themselves, someone they need to control and keep out of the public eye because I'm an embarrassment to the family. Have you got sibs? How do they feel about your dad?

 

My mom's gone and dad's old but my sisters still get to me. I resolved not ever to get involved emotionally with them. But somehow, when stuff shows up in my mailbox when my guard is down, it still gets to me. WHY CAN'T THEY RESPECT ME? Telling others what to believe is disrespectful.

 

I had some straight talk with my sister next to me in age. Was it ever difficult. We've been almost like twins since we were little but we grew apart in our late teens. She got promoted in the community and I got shoved into the back corner. But I've always hoped that someday we could get close again. It's not working. Here's a post from another thread that shows how I summed up the most recent situation:

 

This morning I finally got an idea on how to handle the issue. I prepared all my lines ahead of time, rung them up, and "bit the bullet." I asked, "What do I have to do to satisfy you so that there won't be any more letters like this?"

 

That opened the way for some really frank conversation. She found it really difficult to answer my question and respond to further comments and questions from me. I gave her all the time she needed to figure out what to say and it worked. She seemed really distressed, though, to just let me go, given the way she sees the situation. I then reminded her of her beliefs--maybe I put it as a question so as not to build on presumptions. When it was clear that she believed in God's power and ability to communicate directly with me, I suggested about committing me to God. That seemed to give her peace.

In case you haven't seen it and want to read the whole thing, it's here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Former Follier, It is a personal attack, I don't know about your father but many Christians establish a very personal relationship with their God. You attack that God then you are attacking them as well since it is such a large part of them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Former Follier, It is a personal attack, I don't know about your father but many Christians establish a very personal relationship with their God. You attack that God then you are attacking them as well since it is such a large part of them.

 

Wow! That makes sense. I never thought of it that way. Thanks for the insight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's why I classify what a lot of Christians have as some form of mental illness... They have a 'personal' relationship with something that, unlike even the imaginary friend of child hood, they can't even see or hear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Former Follier, It is a personal attack, I don't know about your father but many Christians establish a very personal relationship with their God. You attack that God then you are attacking them as well since it is such a large part of them.

Until you ask them to actually explain this relationship and then it starts to unravel.

 

Then it seems they (read: not all) just like to have this all-powerful creature that they can appeal to on their side that they feel cannot be contradicted (ie. the "highest authority" which is just them of course). So, of course, challenging their god would be a major blow to their ego since you are really challenging them...the "highest authority." I'd call it a form of narcissism.

 

mwc

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When it was clear that she believed in God's power and ability to communicate directly with me, I suggested about committing me to God.

 

"It is between me and God, and none of your business." That is a good idea. Then, it all depends on your definition of God, be it all powerful deity, or imaginary friend, or just a projection of your own ego, on how you relate to it all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Former Follier, It is a personal attack, I don't know about your father but many Christians establish a very personal relationship with their God. You attack that God then you are attacking them as well since it is such a large part of them.

I know where he stands in that he views Christianity as a personal relationship and not a religion but, by very definition, it is. When he takes offense when his "relationship" with Jesus is called into question and needs to see the flip-side of that coin and understand that, as the mouthpiece of his "relationship", he is likely to offend others when spreading his intolerance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rob, that one occurred to me, too. However, given the level of distress she was feeling I felt to be more sympathetic and help her find something within her religion that allows her to let me go without feeling she has abandoned me. You know, she feels responsible before her god, like God charged Cain with being responsible for his brother, and in Ezekiel it talks about being responsible--if you see danger and don't warn people the blood will be required of your own hand. That's heavy stuff for them to live with.

 

Given that god is imaginary and does not actually deliver, demanding her to draw strength from the Lord to bear her burden is probably not being all that decent. Even so, it seemed like it was really difficult for her to accept. And I don't trust that it will hold. After she thinks things over and talks things over with the others, I won't be surprised if they think up some excuse as to why just committing my spiritual well-being to God is not going to keep them feeling happy and at peace.

 

I can't take responsibility for that. I have enough to just deal with my own life. "Mind your own business" is going to be a good response depending on the situation, and I have sisters to whom I would have no problem telling that--people who have been antagonistic toward me most of their lives, are much younger than me, and take it upon themselves to try and control me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.