Kirangel Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 Former Follier, It is a personal attack, I don't know about your father but many Christians establish a very personal relationship with their God. You attack that God then you are attacking them as well since it is such a large part of them. I know where he stands in that he views Christianity as a personal relationship and not a religion but, by very definition, it is. When he takes offense when his "relationship" with Jesus is called into question and needs to see the flip-side of that coin and understand that, as the mouthpiece of his "relationship", he is likely to offend others when spreading his intolerance. I agree. Do you talk mostly about this on-line with your father? When I bring it up with my mother it is always in person and I can see how much it hurts her when I say anything negative about her God. The don't ask don't tell policy is working fine for me, at least for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Follier Posted July 20, 2007 Author Share Posted July 20, 2007 I agree. Do you talk mostly about this on-line with your father? When I bring it up with my mother it is always in person and I can see how much it hurts her when I say anything negative about her God. The don't ask don't tell policy is working fine for me, at least for now. Actually, I try to avoid talking to him through emails; I'd much rather talk to him in person because so much meaning can be lost when communicating in any way other than orally. When I first "came out" to him about my lack of belief, he was emotionally distraught. He's gotten used to the idea (he's had years to do it). When we speak now, instead of getting red around the eyes and tearing up he just shakes his head in disbelief and tries to put up weak defenses. To be honest with you, the "don't ask, don't tell" method would work fine for me... except the fact that he goes out of his way to make sure I know that he's praying for me. He has all of my life's woes figured out and is certain that they stem from my "rebellion to God" but when I start to question him about his God he clams up or puts minimal effort into a defense. As I mentioned earlier, he took it upon himself to drop-ship four apologetics books to me from Amazon.com... three by Strobel and one by McDowell. He's using the hit-and-run tactics. That's not how I roll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 STROBEL! Ye Gods! The man (Strobel, not your dad) is an ASS... I'd hate to have him on the jury if I was in the dock if that little evidence convinces him of the existance of Jesus from being Atheist.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Follier Posted July 20, 2007 Author Share Posted July 20, 2007 I haven't even cracked any of his three books. I have The Case For Faith, The Case For Christ and The 10 Most Common Objections With Christianity. I'll probably start with one I mentioned last after I've finished Josh McDowell's little over-sized Gospel tract, More Than A Carpenter (assuming of course that you believe in the man's existence). It kind of sucks that he sent me all this stuff because I had to push all of my other reading to the back burner out of a sense of obligation. After all, my dad undoubtedly shelled out a good $80 for those books. I'm not a complete jerk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 You could return the compliement... Deconstructing Jesus The Pre-Nicene Testament The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man: How Reliable Is the Gospel Tradition? All by Rev. Doctor Robert M. Price... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Follier Posted July 20, 2007 Author Share Posted July 20, 2007 I'd also add The Reason Driven Life. I've actually thought about it but, to be honest, I don't need to present my views through someone else. That's his modus operandi, not mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 It may not be yours but it's taking his method of communication back to him, thus one he may more readily understand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 At some point, if he never gives in, you may have to draw the line and not let him cross it. In other words, this time you are reading the books out of obligation. If this opens up communication, great. If not, you may not want to go this far next time. No point in re-inventing the wheel, or trying the same old thing if it never works. Harley, I think you have a good point. However, it could also end up turning into an expensive game of tug-of-war where only the book companies win. Several years ago someone pushed Lee Strobel's Case for Christ on me. I could not make myself read it. One day I was cleaning out bookshelves and found the book. I decided to give it to my family. I figured someone might get value out of it. Biggest mistake I ever made. I was moving along in my deconversion. It so happened that this book grabbed their attention like few books do and they were all taking a turn at reading it. More than one person hinted that I should read it. No one openly told me to, nor did they ask if I wanted to. It was all just subtle hints--it was easy to take it as a casual comment. It is mainly in retrospect that I can see that it was supposed to be hints, if not strong suggestions. By about October last year my deconversion was official and most of them had read the book. This combination of events made for conversation that got me kicked out of the family. No, they would not let me put it that way if they had any say in it. They would probably say I was pushing my unbelief on them and they were merely taking a stand for the faith. So be it. I still have the letter that they took offense with. I simply stated where I stand on some issues. Others were openly telling people how to live. My baby brother said question can be okay but we need to be careful what kind of questions we ask. I was seriously disturbed that he takes such a harsh stand. My mother asked: What do unbeliever think happens when we die? I answered that they believe death is the end. I also mentioned that if we don't look for life after death we take more responsibility for this life. There has been very little positive communication between myself and my family since then. I keep feeling that I have to convince them that I am a good person, but it's not worth the effort. I have to live my life and let them live their life. I will settle for them returning the favor. Things may or may not come to this pass for you, Former Follier. I hope they don't, but please know that you are not the only one if they do. I've come across other equally painful stories on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Follier Posted July 20, 2007 Author Share Posted July 20, 2007 Here's the thing, Ruby: My parents and I have a fairly decent relationship until God is thrown into the mix. I was going through (and am continuing to go through) some very difficult times in my life to the extent of leaving a physically abusive wife and fighting her for sole custody of my daughter. Rather than being compassionate and empathetic, they have taken the stance that the legal battle I am currently enduring and even the abuse I suffered was a result of my rebellion toward God. They have tried to stay so "neutral" through the proceedings, in fact, that it has actually been a detriment to my grounds for custody because they won't affirm that my ex-wife was abusive. All this they do in the name of Christian love and charity toward my ex-wife in the hopes that they can maintain a good relationship with her and someday lead her to Christ. I guess blood isn't thicker than water. As a sidenote, I'm not just claiming that me ex was abusive; if you look at the pictures I've posted you will notice that I always tilt my face downward in photographs to make the scars less aparent. I have one photo that was taken a couple days after she last attacked me; if anyone's curious, I'll post it. The funny thing is, my ex is a (non-practicing) theist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 Family is as family does. If they don't behave like family, then, when the ugly shit is over, however it turns out, drop them like a hot brick. If their fucking cult is more important to them than their (perhaps only) son then they can rot in the nether most pit of their vision of hell forever... I avoided calling your dad an ass... The man is an ass. Sorry, I come from a family that is both close and cohesive. We gripe and argue from time to time, but if shit hits the fan we tend form a unified front. By 'tend' I mean the sort of cohesive fron the the Spartans formed. It angers me when family, who tries to act as family, is hung out to dry. When it's over, unless there's money or property, then let em rot... otherwise, get your pound of flesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Follier Posted July 20, 2007 Author Share Posted July 20, 2007 I do have two brothers, for those who inquired about my siblings, both older, one seven years older and the other four years older. The oldest is actually a member of the forums here but is solely an observer. He's a good guy and is a Reformist. My other brother is, well... I don't know. Perhaps you could call him a non-practicing, nominal Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirangel Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 STROBEL! Ye Gods! The man (Strobel, not your dad) is an ASS... I'd hate to have him on the jury if I was in the dock if that little evidence convinces him of the existance of Jesus from being Atheist.... Have you read his Case for Christ book? This one Christian was advocating it, they love throwing the fact that Strobel was an atheist into your face. When I was at the book store with my friend last week I grabbed the book and a strawberry mocha frappuccino (so good) and sat down and read through a little of it. The very first impression that I go was that he was pushing a strong Christian agenda. I read in reviews that he failed to present interviews who took up opposite views, I didn't have time to read through it all to see if it was the case but that's pretty sad Journalism if it is the case. I don't know, maybe I'll get it from the library and read through it at some point just to see for myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirangel Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 I agree. Do you talk mostly about this on-line with your father? When I bring it up with my mother it is always in person and I can see how much it hurts her when I say anything negative about her God. The don't ask don't tell policy is working fine for me, at least for now. Actually, I try to avoid talking to him through emails; I'd much rather talk to him in person because so much meaning can be lost when communicating in any way other than orally. When I first "came out" to him about my lack of belief, he was emotionally distraught. He's gotten used to the idea (he's had years to do it). When we speak now, instead of getting red around the eyes and tearing up he just shakes his head in disbelief and tries to put up weak defenses. To be honest with you, the "don't ask, don't tell" method would work fine for me... except the fact that he goes out of his way to make sure I know that he's praying for me. He has all of my life's woes figured out and is certain that they stem from my "rebellion to God" but when I start to question him about his God he clams up or puts minimal effort into a defense. As I mentioned earlier, he took it upon himself to drop-ship four apologetics books to me from Amazon.com... three by Strobel and one by McDowell. He's using the hit-and-run tactics. That's not how I roll. That sucks, and what you said in the other posts about your Dad blaming your troubles in life on your falling away from the Christian faith is really horrible. It must be extremely frustrating for you. My mom is more subtle, I came home from college last year and found religious items under my bed. This summer after I came home I found Catholic metals pinned to my mattress. It kind of creeped me out a little, I felt like she was sneaking around behind my back...who knows what else is in my room, I hope there isn't a priest hiding in my closet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 STROBEL! Ye Gods! The man (Strobel, not your dad) is an ASS... I'd hate to have him on the jury if I was in the dock if that little evidence convinces him of the existance of Jesus from being Atheist.... Have you read his Case for Christ book? This one Christian was advocating it, they love throwing the fact that Strobel was an atheist into your face. When I was at the book store with my friend last week I grabbed the book and a strawberry mocha frappuccino (so good) and sat down and read through a little of it. The very first impression that I go was that he was pushing a strong Christian agenda. I read in reviews that he failed to present interviews who took up opposite views, I didn't have time to read through it all to see if it was the case but that's pretty sad Journalism if it is the case. I don't know, maybe I'll get it from the library and read through it at some point just to see for myself. I polished off in the Starbucks in Borders. Three Grandes. There was nothing that troubled me or challenged me, beyond the fact that I some sucker PAID him for that shit. The only positive I can give is that it is readable. The scholarship is poor, the arguments, old. If that convinced him of Cyraast then he'd been in solitary confinement for many years. Even desultory reading of primary sources invalidated a lot of what he said. I believe Earl Doherty has produced a rebuttal of the book. I confess to be enjoying his 'The Jesus Puzzle', although he's not as readable as Strobel (IMO)... ED suffers what I call the Price syndrome, of hitting you about the head a little bit with too much information all at once... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoomonkey Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 It kind of sucks that he sent me all this stuff because I had to push all of my other reading to the back burner out of a sense of obligation. I am in the same spot with my dad. I made a promise once - back when I was a Christian - that I would read anything he sent me. The reason was, he used to own a number of bookstores and had a ton of books that I wanted. He then used it as a way to get me to read a lot of stuff on the Messianic movement - which is basically nothing more than the same pig dressed in hassidic garb. I visited him recently and he gave me yet another book - again focusing on the Messianic church - to try to change my mind regarding my new agnostic beliefs (actually, I am more pagan than anything, but seriously don't want to go there with him). What funny is that it wasn't a book of apology - having a pretty good background in ministry, he knows I have read those. Instead, he simply writes it off as I was in the wrong church (the same shell game they always play - right? Find the real Christian). I hate reading the book because I have read it all before. It is a terrible book that is utterly meaningless, even if I were looking at it from a Christian perspective - just another "our way of believing is better than yours" type rag. But - I made a promise and I am a man of my word... Damn residual ethics... I think to me - it doesn't bother me that he is praying for me. Becuase he isn't - he is praying for himself - to make himself feel better. I am okay with that. I don't want my decisions to hurt him, you know? I want it to be a non-issue. Mine - not his - and none of his business. So, what do I do? I just listen, tell him I understand his position and concern and then - refuse to budge. So far, so good... Spoomonkey PS - It is funny - I came today looking to post my struggles with my dad. Thanks for making that unnecessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nomadic techno-gypsy Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 That sucks, and what you said in the other posts about your Dad blaming your troubles in life on your falling away from the Christian faith is really horrible. It must be extremely frustrating for you. My mom is more subtle, I came home from college last year and found religious items under my bed. This summer after I came home I found Catholic metals pinned to my mattress. It kind of creeped me out a little, I felt like she was sneaking around behind my back...who knows what else is in my room, I hope there isn't a priest hiding in my closet... Don't worry, the priests are too busy hiding in their own closets. And FF, I understand how you feel man. . .my dad is the same way. . .as is my sister, and my brother. Suprisingly, my mom has become much more liberal and almost Universal Unitarian in her beliefs since I came out of my non-theistic closet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light_of_Reason Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 Strobel stinks. His investigative and research skills border on nil. He is a good writer and a good interviewer, however. But those are his only strengths. My father in law sent me a copy of his "Case for a Creator" a few years ago. All the interviewees were or have been part of the Discovery Institute at some time in their careers. But what I found even weaker was that they didn't present a coherent positive argument for a creator. They merely laid out negative arguments against evolutionary theory, and bad ones at that. After reading that book, I came to the undeniable conclusion that Strobel's arguments and apologetics are not aimed at non-Christians. They are aimed at questioning Christians as a means to reinforce their faith. As has already been said, even a cursory examination of Strobel's interviews and research shows the extreme weakness of his arguments. But most of his intended audience will not do the work to discover this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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