Antlerman Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 OK, from now on, when faced with the no-ex-Christians blather, I'm pointing said blatherer to Antlerman. You're free to cut and paste my response when they come here next time. I'm so tired of hearing that irrational nonsense. Honestly I believe it's totally motivated by the fear it causes them. They want to believe it and we give them reason to think they too could loose their faith. They need us to be something not like them, never a true believer like they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garnet Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 OK, from now on, when faced with the no-ex-Christians blather, I'm pointing said blatherer to Antlerman. You're free to cut and paste my response when they come here next time. I'm so tired of hearing that irrational nonsense. Honestly I believe it's totally motivated by the fear it causes them. They want to believe it and we give them reason to think they too could loose their faith. They need us to be something not like them, never a true believer like they are. *chuckle* Thank you. I agree with you. To me, soundbytes like, "There are no ex-Christians," or "You never were a True Christian," are just self-defense mechanisms. As someone did in this thread, sound-bite blatherers typically point me to scriptures that support these notions. As if an atheist will be swayed by Bible quotes! Oy. As far as I'm concerned, it's just another schoolyard bully tactic. If you can't defeat someone with a decent argument, resort to name calling and insults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 10 out of 10 ex-Christians recommend bitchslapping evangelical Christians. Make that 9 out of 10. Count me outta "bitchslapping" anyone. Would that be due to the temptation to be holding a katana while doing it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Follier Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 GARNET and ANTLERMAN: Start copying and pasting... we've got a prime example in the "Five Questions Christians Can't Answer" thread that is currently being posted to. We've got an apologist in there pulling out all the stops. Lion's Den! Come join the fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garnet Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Meh. I'm not into shooting fish in a barrel anymore. The guy's a moron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Just say "Well, there's no such thing as Jesus, either" I nominate this as the future official answer to this moronic claim. This is the best answer I've seen. You were never a xian. So, there was never a Jesus (at a minimum, not the one you claim). Slam dunk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Follier Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Meh. I'm not into shooting fish in a barrel anymore. The guy's a moron. You've got to admit that it's fun. Better than ants under a magnifying glass even. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garnet Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 Meh. I'm not into shooting fish in a barrel anymore. The guy's a moron. You've got to admit that it's fun. Better than ants under a magnifying glass even. Nah It would be more like repeatedly banging my head against the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 Just say "Well, there's no such thing as Jesus, either" I nominate this as the future official answer to this moronic claim. This is the best answer I've seen. You were never a xian. So, there was never a Jesus (at a minimum, not the one you claim). Slam dunk. I second that. Except, I would first decide whether or not I wanted to fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurari Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 \I throw it back in their face with "there's no such thing as a Christian." This really gets them pissed off, and it's actually true! There is no such thing as a Christian in the sense that they think. (I.e Sealed byt the Spirit, Born AGain. Its all imaginary) So they are right when they say there are no Ex-Christians in the sense they mean, because there never were any CHristians by that standard in the first place. This is a good way to address it, because it is true, and it serves the purpose. You have thrown the fustration back at them. That's kind of fascinating. Could you expand on that argument, Mick? What are the points that make them "Not Christian?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 Kurari, I think he means that no one is reborn and that it's all in the imagination. I don't fully get it, either, because I thought being Christian means believing one is saved through belief in Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chibiabos Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 If I had money to bet, I'd put it on there being more ex Christians than "ex gays." Anyone know of any place that's done research to find such numbers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 If I had money to bet, I'd put it on there being more ex Christians than "ex gays." Anyone know of any place that's done research to find such numbers? hmm...no but that would be interesting though. I don't think anyone can be an ex-gay anymore than anyone can be an ex-left handed. If you are left-handed you can be conditioned to use your right hand, but it will never be your natural tendency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chibiabos Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 If I had money to bet, I'd put it on there being more ex Christians than "ex gays." Anyone know of any place that's done research to find such numbers? hmm...no but that would be interesting though. I don't think anyone can be an ex-gay anymore than anyone can be an ex-left handed. If you are left-handed you can be conditioned to use your right hand, but it will never be your natural tendency. Exactly. I should feel lucky I wasn't alive in pre-Kinsey America, the "cures" that were prescribed for the homosexuality "disease" ... *shudder* Its heartbreaking to me that Christians still drive those born gay to find a way to "cure" their "disease" ... it may be hard to fathom, I dunno how many others on these forums are gay/bi/les/trans ... but put to the test, if I were re-incarnated and had the option, I would definitely choose to be straight. I don't see how anyone in their sane mind would ever say "Yes, I want to be bigoted against, oppressed, shot at, and for most people to just quietly look on by as it happens." I have been shot at by redneck neighbors who managed to figure out that I wasn't straight after I had been living there for a couple years with all male housemates. I see the "gay = anti-family" messages way too often and I wish I could do what so many in the U.S. say and simply not care ... but it hurts, every time. I've somewhat re-closeted, I never come out to employers or coworkers, I fear people on the street I come across knowing. I'm sure many would be okay, but I'm afraid of the few who wouldn't ... How do we ever break out of this barbarism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Sorry, I have no answers. All I have is a lot of sympathy for people like you. Being hated for being me is an all too common experience. I think that is what people do to homosexuals, too, and that this is what has prompted me to stand up for gay rights in churches and classrooms. It probably did no good but it was one more voice out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Follier Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 "Better to be right by yourself than wrong in a crowd." That was a very feeble attempt at paraphrazing the famous quote by... oh... whoever it was. Leave me alone. It's twenty after one in the morning here. *yawn* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMathGuy Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 The one statement that pisses me off when talking to xtians is: "There is no such thing as a former Christian." How do you respond to this? I've heard this argument before when debating the "Once saved, always saved" theology. Those who follow it would say that a so-called ex-Christian is either a Christian who is in a period of temporary sin and backslidden from God, or else they never truly surrendered their heart to Jesus in the first place. My answer would be "Assuming Christianity is actually true, you might have an argument, but if it's not, then it's entirely possible to be an ex-Christian. God can't protect people from leaving the fold if he doesn't exist. I think this gets to the real heart of that sentiment--people are afraid of losing the faith and so they speculate that God would never allow a Christian to lose faith (gulp! I hope!) so I'm safe in God's arms and your arguments cannot hurt me. You so called "ex-Christians" can't really have had the deep personal relationship with the Lord that I have (I think. ... I hope! Let it be true! Please God! Please God!) [As fundie Christian's pulse begins to quicken] I think my response is the very thing they are hoping not to hear. It gives them no reassurance to calm their fears (or at least I like to imagine that's what's going on in their minds). It makes debates much less nerve-racking when you imagine your opponent internally terrified but trying desperately not to let it show. There are certain places fundamentalists simply can't go in an argument, and it makes them squirm. I have nothing to lose by continuing any debate with anyone who cares to debate me. If the real truth is what I'm after, and I'm open-minded enough to be willing to change any belief if the evidence warrants it, then I literally can't lose! It's great! If I am right I will either convince my opponent, we will get tired of debating and postpone it until a later time, or he will become frustrated and give up. If I am wrong and discover this fact, well then I've learned something in the process. Either way I come out ahead in the end. I have nothing to fear but the truth, and I've chosen not to fear the truth. The same cannot be said of a fundamentalist Christian. -- Nate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMathGuy Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 That being said, I can imagine my father yelling at me in a very threatening voice, "Then your beliefs are wrong! You better change them NOW or the day will come when you will wish you had." If you wanted to have some fun with them, you could always play the "Why" game, or a more intellectually varied version of it. Every young child knows the "Why" game, and probably plays it with his or her parents at some point, perhaps at the age of 2 or 3. When it first occurs to a child that every answer to a question can always be replied to with a "Why?", it makes for endless fun (until the kid or his parents finally get bored or frustrated with it). It can really test the patience of some parents! If I had a kid who insisted on playing the "Why" game with me I think I'd find it more amusing than frustrating, but maybe that's just the sort of laid-back personality I tend to have. It would be great to have kids some day. I'd love to raise a new generation without them having to go through all the religious indoctrination crap I had to put up with and that it took me more than two decades to free myself of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightbearer Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 The one statement that pisses me off when talking to xtians is: "There is no such thing as a former Christian." How do you respond to this? "There is no such thing as God" OH SHIT, PIME TARADOX! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light_of_Reason Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 I walk slowly away never turning my back to them until I know I am a safe distance away. At this point in a conversation, I know I am not dealing with a person with the capacity for rational and safe thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mankey Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 The one statement that pisses me off when talking to xtians is: "There is no such thing as a former Christian." How do you respond to this? I would say that this person would have to be a mind reader in order to really know if some truly believed or not. Besides: Mathew 7 16 By their fruits you will know them. Do you gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree produces good fruit; but the corrupt tree produces evil fruit. 18 A good tree can't produce evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. If you know of another Ex-Christian who not only believed but was just as good a Christian as the person who said this then that would be proof that there are former Christians who truly believed. I really got to say that this is the one thing that really causes the most hurt and resentment between apostates and Christians. Now, not only is your world turned upside down after having lost faith, but you are also called a lier and are blamed for feelings you just can't help... Been there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mankey Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 The one statement that pisses me off when talking to xtians is: "There is no such thing as a former Christian." How do you respond to this? I would say that this person would have to be a mind reader in order to really know if some truly believed or not. Besides: Mathew 7 16 By their fruits you will know them. Do you gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree produces good fruit; but the corrupt tree produces evil fruit. 18 A good tree can't produce evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. If you know of another Ex-Christian who not only believed but was just as good a Christian as the person who said this then that would be proof that there are former Christians who truly believed. I really got to say that this is the one thing that really causes the most hurt and resentment between apostates and Christians. Now, not only is your world turned upside down after having lost faith, but you are also called a lier and are blamed for feelings you just can't help... Been there. I was the type of Christian that pretty much just parroted what other Christians said. I never really read the bible. Reading the whole bible a few times is what did me in. The Old Testament was really hard to take. Still my memory isn't the best, but I do not recall the bible really addressing this issue of "no such thing as a former Christian". Theology is pretty much bullshit and the bible says what it says regardless of church dogma, and the bible just doesn't address some issues. I think the bible really does not address this issue as far as I can recall. If thats true God does not say either way. Hehe. I still say that if you were seen as a good Christian or some other apostate that you all know was seen as a good Christian then that should be proof enough for this theist of yours who claimed that. It says that Christians can know Christians by their fruits. Christians can know them by their fruits. Nuff said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Wolf Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 THe last church I went to taught both sides of OSAS. The more common believe was that you can loose your salvation. Allthough I can say I was in the position of not being able to comprehend why someone would cease to be a Christian, and give up the gift of eternal life in bliss with God. I just tell them I know the state of my former "relationship" with Jehova, they don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red_Pyramid Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 "Well, then how does God honor freewill???" end game, argument won... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 That being said, I can imagine my father yelling at me in a very threatening voice, "Then your beliefs are wrong! You better change them NOW or the day will come when you will wish you had." If you wanted to have some fun with them, you could always play the "Why" game, or a more intellectually varied version of it. Every young child knows the "Why" game, and probably plays it with his or her parents at some point, perhaps at the age of 2 or 3. When it first occurs to a child that every answer to a question can always be replied to with a "Why?", it makes for endless fun (until the kid or his parents finally get bored or frustrated with it). It can really test the patience of some parents! If I had a kid who insisted on playing the "Why" game with me I think I'd find it more amusing than frustrating, but maybe that's just the sort of laid-back personality I tend to have. It would be great to have kids some day. I'd love to raise a new generation without them having to go through all the religious indoctrination crap I had to put up with and that it took me more than two decades to free myself of. Won't work... some 'families' aren't above enforcing their beliefs with fists. As I've said before family is as family does... and a lot here don't have families... just people with similar DNA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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