Jump to content

Help, My Husband Thinks I'm the Devil's Puppet


Recommended Posts

  • Admin

Sent in by Kelli

 

Hi, I'm a 29-year-old, happy agnostic. My struggle with the faith began about two years ago. Up until then I was insanely devout. I had accepted the fact that most of the people I love will probably spend eternity in hell and tried not to think about it except when I was busy blaming myself for not being able to convince them of God's saving truth. I read my Bible, sometimes for hours a day. I prayed, for around an hour every day and still it was never enough. If I woke in the middle of the night, it was because God wanted me to pray more, and so I did. My husband and I were "equally yoked," and spent many hours discussing God's purpose for our lives and our terrible failure to live up to His standards of purity and devotion.

 

Yet despite all this, the truth somehow got to me. Around two years ago I began to have doubts which felt like moments of clarity — moments where the fog of self brainwashing lifted and I saw reality — moments where I perceived Christianity to be just like all the other false belief systems and superstitions. I quickly apologized to God whenever this happened and begged His forgiveness. I began fasting and decided to read the Bible strait through to try and fight the satanic attack against my faith. Of course, you all know what happened next. Every day there was something else in the Bible I had to ignore to keep believing in God. I was a living paradox. Part of me knew I was really alone when I prayed and what a foolish waste of precious time it was to talk to myself for an hour a day, repeating the same prayer I said yesterday and the day before and the day before. This other part grew in "faith" until I was almost ready to raise the dead. (Or just make a real spectacle of myself at a funeral.)

 

Then last year my cousin actually died. (Don't worry, I didn't try to raise him.) He was a non-believer. At first I cried for him, believing him to be in hell. People tried to say he could have asked Jesus into his heart in those last moments before his death. Isn't it convenient that you can do that? You can just assume all the non-believers who you love actually did accept Christ at the last second, and then you don't have to face the actual scary, cruel teachings of your religion.

 

So there was an internal struggle between someone I'd actually known and loved and the imaginary being I thought I knew and loved. I felt it was a test. The ultimate test. I had to accept God's divine wisdom and goodness for sending my unbelieving relative to hell just because he didn't believe. I turned to the Bible for comfort but for the first time I couldn't just bury all the disturbing things I saw there. Even the good parts were disturbing. For example the Bible says we're going to spend all of eternity singing praises to god. Just standing there singing praises to God is not my idea of a happy eternity. It's just better than hell, right? And what kind of being creates other beings just to do that? And how could the same being who created other beings to worship Him for all eternity have to create me with the internal logic that makes that seem crazy?

 

I could go on forever but the real reason I wrote this is actually to ask for some advice. My husband can't accept my loss of faith. He can't accept it because it's messing with his faith. I'm happy, I'm agnostic, I'm still a good person. This is all too much for him. He says seeing what's happened to me and hearing all my arguments against the Bible is bringing his faith down. I say we just shouldn't talk about it anymore but then he puffs his chest out like a rooster and says he will not remain quiet about his God in his home. I try not to laugh.

 

He can't believe I don't realize that the Devil is using me to bring down his faith. He says that the Devil uses women to get to men, as in Eve with the apple and Solomons wives. He said the very fact that I'm so good to him and have always been such a good person is what will make it the ultimate trick when he goes to hell because of me.

 

I'm trying to be patient because I know he's brainwashed. It's amazing how I can show him out right contradictions in the Bible and he'll twist them to try and make sense. What's worse is when he's doing it and I'm seeing myself two years ago doing the same thing.

 

He has two arguments that I'm hoping someone will be able to help me with. One is if they didn't actually see Jesus resurrected then why did they martyr themselves for their faith. I'm not entirely sure where he's getting his facts from but he's sure all the original disciples died for refusing to deny Christ and can't see why they would if they hadn't seen him resurrected. Does anyone know anything about this? The other question he posed has to do with prophesies. He says Jesus fulfilled all these Biblical prophesies and that's one of the reasons he can't stop believing. Can anyone give me any ideas of where to go in my research to come up with answers to these challenges?

 

To monitor comments posted to this topic, use comment-ful.gif.http://exchristian.net/testimonies/2007/06...ils-puppet.html

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's probably plenty of information on the net showing the failed prophesies of Jesus.

 

 

Also, one needs only to consider the legitimacy of the ****** resurrection story ****** in order to invalidate the supposed martyrdom that took place.

 

Keeping in mind that, these are all just make-believe words written together into one big make-believe story.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Greetings, Kelli :wave:

 

Jebus fulfilling prophecy? That's a laugh - even if he existed, he couldn't possibly be the Jewish messiah Xianity claims he is. Just read what the Jews themselves have to say about that.

 

Or there's Brad's wonderfully handy website, Agnostic Review of Xianity - more holes to blow in the Jebus story.

 

I mentioned Jebus didn't exist - here are some reasons.

 

And even if he did exist and did fulfill all these supposed "prophecies" this so-called "savior" is one of the worst monsters to have ever existed.

 

Ok, so I strayed a little, but I hope those sites are helpful :)

 

Nothing hurts like a loved one flying off the handle and accusing you of all sorts of crazy shit. My ex was like that; we'd have religious discussions, we'd disagree, and all of a sudden I was "persecuting" her for her beliefs. Yes, WTF indeed :shrug:

 

I hope you can help enlighten your husband, and I hope your own newfound path is a more joyful one to walk :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest zarathustra
Sent in by Kelli

 

 

 

I could go on forever but the real reason I wrote this is actually to ask for some advice. My husband can't accept my loss of faith.

 

He has two arguments that I'm hoping someone will be able to help me with. One is if they didn't actually see Jesus resurrected then why did they martyr themselves for their faith. I'm not entirely sure where he's getting his facts from but he's sure all the original disciples died for refusing to deny Christ and can't see why they would if they hadn't seen him resurrected. Does anyone know anything about this? The other question he posed has to do with prophesies. He says Jesus fulfilled all these Biblical prophesies and that's one of the reasons he can't stop believing. Can anyone give me any ideas of where to go in my research to come up with answers to these challenges?

 

To monitor comments posted to this topic, use comment-ful.gif.

 

http://exchristian.net/testimonies/2007/06...ils-puppet.html

 

Welcome. This is a good site to find knowledgable people with answers. I have actually run into collegues who have raised the martyr argument with me. As they put it, "who would die for a belief if it wasn't true?" "Therefore," they continue, "Christianity must be true." I simply point out that Muslims are blowing themselves up all over the mideast and were responsible for the 9/11 attacks. "Does this mean that Islam is true?" I reply. This usually shuts my collegues up, but if they continue I then point out how much more prevalent martyrdom is in the Muslim world as compared to the Christian world and it would seem that Islam would have a greater claim to truth than christianity based upon shear numbers of people willing to die for the cause. And mind you its not just Muslims and Christians that have martyred themselves. There are also Buddists and Hindus tha have done the same. There are even "true believers" with secular idealogies that martyr themselves - Kamikaze piots, communists, "freedom fighters" etc. So while I really don't know whether or not the 12 disciples were martyred, it doesnt matter. Being a suicidal true believer is not evidence of the belief itself it is merely evidence of the gullibility of the believer.

 

As for the prophecies fulfilled I would recommend visiing a jewish website and you will see that the same verses used by christians have been either 1. intentionally changed by christians so as to make it seem as though Jesus fillfulled a prophecy, 2. totally misinterpreted or 3. the writers of the new testament embellished their gospels to make the story of Jesus seem to fulfill the prophecies of the old. A good and well known example which falls under both #2 and 3 is the prophecy in Isaiah which states that "he will be born of a virgin." Christians point to this old testament verse to show that Jesus fulfilled it as is described in the gospel of Matthew. The problem is that the "he" is not referring to Jesus, its just that christians mistakenly interpret it as though it does. Moreover, the verse in hebrew actually states that "he is to born of a young maiden." Young maiden is clearly not the same as virgin. Biblilcal scholars have pointed out that the hebrew term for "young maiden" is "almah" and that "almah" is used many time in the old testament to descibe several women -none of whom were virigins. The question becomes why would Matthew say Jesus was born of a virgin when Isiah makes no such reference. Its because he was relying upon the septuigent (the Greek translation of the hebrew bible made in the first or second century BC) which had a mistranslation of the term almah when it was rendered from the hebrew. Thus, when Matthew (a greek speaker)went looking for old testament verses he could rely on to bolster the claim of Jesus as Messiah he happened upon Isiah in the septuagint and assuming the greek translation was correct unwittingly relied upon it. By attemting to make Jesus fit a prophetic verse in the old testament, he unwittingly reveals the fact that the "prophecy" of the virgin birth was nothing more than an attempt by him to concot a fulfilled prophecy.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Z

Link to comment
Share on other sites

>>He has two arguments that I'm hoping someone will be able to help me with. One is if they didn't actually see Jesus resurrected then why did they martyr themselves for their faith. I'm not entirely sure where he's getting his facts from but he's sure all the original disciples died for refusing to deny Christ and can't see why they would if they hadn't seen him resurrected. Does anyone know anything about this?

 

The simple answer is legend. There is no good reason to believe the Gospels contain records of actual events or the real words of CHrist. It is also clear that the Christian story is stolen from other myths like Mythras and Attis. Google them. Those may shock him I think.

 

Sent in by Kelli

 

Hi, I'm a 29-year-old, happy agnostic. My struggle with the faith began about two years ago. Up until then I was insanely devout. I had accepted the fact that most of the people I love will probably spend eternity in hell and tried not to think about it except when I was busy blaming myself for not being able to convince them of God's saving truth. I read my Bible, sometimes for hours a day. I prayed, for around an hour every day and still it was never enough. If I woke in the middle of the night, it was because God wanted me to pray more, and so I did. My husband and I were "equally yoked," and spent many hours discussing God's purpose for our lives and our terrible failure to live up to His standards of purity and devotion.

 

Yet despite all this, the truth somehow got to me. Around two years ago I began to have doubts which felt like moments of clarity — moments where the fog of self brainwashing lifted and I saw reality — moments where I perceived Christianity to be just like all the other false belief systems and superstitions. I quickly apologized to God whenever this happened and begged His forgiveness. I began fasting and decided to read the Bible strait through to try and fight the satanic attack against my faith. Of course, you all know what happened next. Every day there was something else in the Bible I had to ignore to keep believing in God. I was a living paradox. Part of me knew I was really alone when I prayed and what a foolish waste of precious time it was to talk to myself for an hour a day, repeating the same prayer I said yesterday and the day before and the day before. This other part grew in "faith" until I was almost ready to raise the dead. (Or just make a real spectacle of myself at a funeral.)

 

Then last year my cousin actually died. (Don't worry, I didn't try to raise him.) He was a non-believer. At first I cried for him, believing him to be in hell. People tried to say he could have asked Jesus into his heart in those last moments before his death. Isn't it convenient that you can do that? You can just assume all the non-believers who you love actually did accept Christ at the last second, and then you don't have to face the actual scary, cruel teachings of your religion.

 

So there was an internal struggle between someone I'd actually known and loved and the imaginary being I thought I knew and loved. I felt it was a test. The ultimate test. I had to accept God's divine wisdom and goodness for sending my unbelieving relative to hell just because he didn't believe. I turned to the Bible for comfort but for the first time I couldn't just bury all the disturbing things I saw there. Even the good parts were disturbing. For example the Bible says we're going to spend all of eternity singing praises to god. Just standing there singing praises to God is not my idea of a happy eternity. It's just better than hell, right? And what kind of being creates other beings just to do that? And how could the same being who created other beings to worship Him for all eternity have to create me with the internal logic that makes that seem crazy?

 

I could go on forever but the real reason I wrote this is actually to ask for some advice. My husband can't accept my loss of faith. He can't accept it because it's messing with his faith. I'm happy, I'm agnostic, I'm still a good person. This is all too much for him. He says seeing what's happened to me and hearing all my arguments against the Bible is bringing his faith down. I say we just shouldn't talk about it anymore but then he puffs his chest out like a rooster and says he will not remain quiet about his God in his home. I try not to laugh.

 

He can't believe I don't realize that the Devil is using me to bring down his faith. He says that the Devil uses women to get to men, as in Eve with the apple and Solomons wives. He said the very fact that I'm so good to him and have always been such a good person is what will make it the ultimate trick when he goes to hell because of me.

 

I'm trying to be patient because I know he's brainwashed. It's amazing how I can show him out right contradictions in the Bible and he'll twist them to try and make sense. What's worse is when he's doing it and I'm seeing myself two years ago doing the same thing.

 

He has two arguments that I'm hoping someone will be able to help me with. One is if they didn't actually see Jesus resurrected then why did they martyr themselves for their faith. I'm not entirely sure where he's getting his facts from but he's sure all the original disciples died for refusing to deny Christ and can't see why they would if they hadn't seen him resurrected. Does anyone know anything about this? The other question he posed has to do with prophesies. He says Jesus fulfilled all these Biblical prophesies and that's one of the reasons he can't stop believing. Can anyone give me any ideas of where to go in my research to come up with answers to these challenges?

 

To monitor comments posted to this topic, use comment-ful.gif.

 

http://exchristian.net/testimonies/2007/06...ils-puppet.html

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kelli, some very good answers have been given, esp. about martyrdom and prophecy. When the Bible is studied the same way other ancient literature is studied, then it becomes obvious that Moses did not write the Pentateuch (first five books of the Bible) and that the prophecies were probably written after the fact. It also becomes obvious, like Zarathustra said, that the entire Jesus story is based on a mistranslation of the Hebrew scripture.

 

How to get chest-puffing fundamentalist Christians to accept this without knocking out what brains they have is not a question I can answer. I can see the justification of your husband claiming the right to talk about his god in his own home. It makes less sense, though, that a loving and dedicated husband would be so disrespectful of his wife. In other words, he's not being very loving and respectful and humble at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that you are exactly right that it is "messing with his faith." He doesn't want to hear anything that might make him change his mind. My husband is a Christian and I have been an ex-Christian for only about a month. He is totally freaking out. His answer to everything that doesn't make sense is "You just have to have faith that God can do anything." My interpretation- if something doesn't make sense, just turn your brain off. I can understand why it's threatening because I'm going through it right now myself. When Christianity is all you have ever known, that's where all of your friends are, that's where all of your answers are, that's where your comfort is. It is scary to change the whole foundation of your life. I'm still walking on eggshells with my husband and he doesn't want to hear any of my reasons for not believing. A couple of days ago I was able to make a point by telling him that I couldn't remember what the Christian reason is for believing that the Bible is perfect, inerrant, with no contradictions. He quoted the verse in II Timothy about "all scripture is inspired....." I innocently pointed out that that verse was written before there was a New Testament, so why did that apply to the whole Bible? That stumped him. When I asked about the contradictions in the Bible, he said that there weren't any. I offered to show him my list, but he left the room. Hopefully with time he will be willing to listen to a little reason. In the meantime, I am trying to be as non-threatening as I can. It is so hard not to shake him and make him listen!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow Kelli,

 

Your story sounds much like mine, except for the whole gender reversal. My wife went so far as to try to control what sort of music I listened to in my home or around my children. There was a lot of conflict for a long time after I told her about my deconversion. It took quite a while to somewhat move beyond it. There are still moments. There are still ideological stumbling blocks we have to go up against, especially concerning our children, but it has gotten better.

 

I wish you luck! It is a tough situation to be in! As far as the questions, you have gotten good answers, but the prophesies thing is really one of the early biblical problems I had to try to cope with, before my faith was gone. I started looking at the prophecy references from the gospels and looking at the old testament sections referred to. It really started to eat at me how very un-prophetic the original text really was in many cases. I believe that Matthew in particular disturbed me in the things that it references in the old testament as being prophecies and the weird ways in which it is said to be fulfilled in jesus.

 

Anyway, again I wish you luck!

 

~Libertus

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest resonate11

Kelli,

 

I am glad you are a “happy agnostic”! I wish you and your husband well in your respective searches for truth and wisdom.

 

Farrell Till is a former Christian preacher and bible college (Harding University) professor who, for many years now, debunks Christianity in an intellectually rigorous manner. He wrote an article about Biblical prophecies. Here is the link.

 

 

prophecies

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He has two arguments that I'm hoping someone will be able to help me with. One is if they didn't actually see Jesus resurrected then why did they martyr themselves for their faith. I'm not entirely sure where he's getting his facts from but he's sure all the original disciples died for refusing to deny Christ and can't see why they would if they hadn't seen him resurrected. Does anyone know anything about this? The other question he posed has to do with prophesies. He says Jesus fulfilled all these Biblical prophesies and that's one of the reasons he can't stop believing. Can anyone give me any ideas of where to go in my research to come up with answers to these challenges?

 

http://exchristian.net/testimonies/2007/06...ils-puppet.html

 

The answer to the first question is simple. The validity of a belief bears no relation to somebody's willingness to die for it. The Jim Jones example in Guyana, or the Heaven's Gate cult - both of those groups believed fervently in their cause - enough to die for it - but that didn't make it true.

 

The other answer is that "how do you know that they died?" It's not like there's a county registrar's office you can go to to check on how the disciples died, or if they even existed. That could be just because it makes a good story.

 

The question of prophesy is a harder one to answer, simply because prophecies tend to be vague and therefore easily fit to whatever situation you want them to fit.

 

Good luck. I'm happy to hear that you are happy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The question of prophesy is a harder one to answer, simply because prophecies tend to be vague and therefore easily fit to whatever situation you want them to fit.

 

I read the article Resonate linked. It is heavy reading but it is well-researched and makes a really good argument against the reality of prophecy. Till (author's name) uses a variety of examples from the Bible and points out all the reasons why it is not a genuine prophecy. The simplest explanation is that they were written after the fact, or missing names (such as Josiah, whose name was seemingly prophecied three hundred years before his birth) were probably inserted later, or after the fact.

 

Till also argues that prophets had great political power and exploited it for their own personal agendas. He takes examples from the OT to make his points. He also shows prophecies that are nothing but empty threats, such as Egypt being desolate for forty years, with neither human nor beast walking in it all that time. Till says history does not bear out that this ever happened. (Extremists would probably say this is a prophecy for the future. Yeah, right. See the article to find out what Till thinks of that kind of thinking.)

 

In response to your charge that prophecy is vague, he addresses this. Apparently, some scholar has indicated that we look for specific details in prophecy to declare them true or false. Till bases his argument on that criteria. One of the prophecies he explores in a lot of depth is the Isaiah "prophecy" of Jesus. He claims there is no connection between the Isaiah passage and Jesus, that the NT writers, esp. Matthew, were so desperate to see OT fulfilments in Jesus that they twisted OT passages totally out of context, and (this is my idea; not Till's) sometimes it seems like nothing but word association.

 

The Isaiah prophecy referred to a child that was going to be born that same year. The woman was already pregnant. The king came to Isaiah for advice on how to deal with his enemies. (Till explains that it was because kings trusted the prophets to give good advice in times of political crisis that the prophets had so much political power.) Isaiah consoled him with the prophecy that before this child that was already conceived could say mama or daddy, long before this child could tell good from evil, his enemies would be gone and peace restored. He talks about the child eating honey and curds. This was peace-time food.

 

Till points out that Jesus was not born for another seven hundred years; hence it would not have been any consolation to the king of his own time to know that seven hundred years after his death, the enemy would be defeated.

 

For anyone who wants the indepth explanations Till gives, I suggest to read the article. These are but a few of the examples Till uses but he basically refutes all prophecy on some ground or another. He uses logic, so it's not for the believing christian folk who sometime frequent this forum.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.