Offending Christians

[R. S. Martin]

Anti- T???

 

Anti-Testimony. See the section for Testimony of Former Christians. It's where you tell your story. We can't tell where you're coming from. You talk like a fundy but you claim not to be a fundy. So what are you? Why are you here? What do you expect to accomplish by talking with us? We get the feeling you're trying to convert us to your way of thinking. That ain't gonna happen. Read up on our testimonies before you try any dirty tricks. We've seen them all.

 

The town story was supposed to make a point that yes there are bad Christians who are obnoxious, try to profit off of the religion, and end up causing emotional pain to others and sometimes worse.

 

And this is not what you are trying to do? Perhaps you haven't bothered reading many posts before you started posting. Major mistake. With so many of us seriously worried about a hot shooting bombing war going on in another part of the world by top national leaders we are not going to be quick to see any "metaphors" in language about destroying towns.

 

There are also kind Christians who have the right to quietly worship in peace

 

Says who? Moreover, why do you take it upon yourself to inform us?

 

who do not run around shoving their beliefs down other peoples throats. Then there are those who rely heavily on the religion because it makes up their social network and provides emotional support for them. Some people need a God or two to to help them cope with their lives. So what I was saying is that I would not try to disband Christianity because of the positive effect it can have on peoples lives. I would never take that away from anyone, the world is difficult enough as is.

 

You got some explaining to do Kir. Religion is not necessary for a social network. Mature humans can figure out how to live without god. If you need god just maybe you haven't quite grown up yet. Your pic looks like you're about 13 and you're telling us what to do???

 

I have talked to a few Christians about their methods of proselytizing. I'll get into debates with them and present my views but never with the goal of trying to convince them that they're wrong.

 

Christians tend not to like being told by their kids how to act.

 

Okay I'll back off. You're probably older than you look. But still, who are you? Why are you here? What do you intend to accomplish? What puts you on the impression that you know some secret knowledge that we don't? Again, READ OUR STORIES before you make assumptions.

 

Lots of xians take half a look at the name of our website, then come barging in here telling us what we should be doing. You look an awful lot like them. Enlighten us so we don't get wrong impressions. Write your anti-testimony.

[Kirangel]

The town story was supposed to make a point that yes there are bad Christians who are obnoxious, try to profit off of the religion, and end up causing emotional pain to others and sometimes worse. There are also kind Christians who have the right to quietly worship in peace who do not run around shoving their beliefs down other peoples throats. Then there are those who rely heavily on the religion because it makes up their social network and provides emotional support for them. Some people need a God or two to to help them cope with their lives. So what I was saying is that I would not try to disband Christianity because of the positive effect it can have on peoples lives. I would never take that away from anyone, the world is difficult enough as is.

 

I have talked to a few Christians about their methods of proselytizing. I'll get into debates with them and present my views but never with the goal of trying to convince them that they're wrong.

Kirangel, we have heard this "good christian-bad christian" argument before. Yes, there are kind christians. And kind muslims. And kind Buddhists. And kind atheists. At the end of the day, the christian message remains the same: "God loves you, but only if you accept Jesus as the blood sacrifice for your sins (because you were created by the omnipotent god who knew beforehand that you would be born sinful and therefore cursed by this god and deserving of eternal damnation, etc. etc.) What "positive effect" could such a damnable doctrine have on anyone's life outside of fostering complacency and obedience to the dictates of church elders?

 

If you enter into debate with these fools about their proselytizing with no goal in mind, what would you be debating about? Or is it that you're not really debating or confronting, but enabling?? Really, Kirangel, I'm not understanding here. Do you take a position, or are you trying to fence-sit? I just would like to know where you stand. Are you an apologist, or what?

 

If you do not believe then why do you care so much about what they think? It's the ones who make an impact on the laws of the state/nation that you should worry about.

 

I debate about how they go about proselytizing. I don't believe in their God, I don't believe in trying to stop them from worshiping their God, I don't agree with the way that their beliefs in their God affect my Country. I can't stand it when Muslims say they are fighting Christians when they fight the US because I myself and others in my country are not Christian.

[Kirangel]

Anti-Testimony. See the section for Testimony of Former Christians. It's where you tell your story. We can't tell where you're coming from. You talk like a fundy but you claim not to be a fundy. So what are you? Why are you here? What do you expect to accomplish by talking with us? We get the feeling you're trying to convert us to your way of thinking. That ain't gonna happen. Read up on our testimonies before you try any dirty tricks. We've seen them all.

 

I posted about myself in the 'Not a Christian' thread in this same section. If you have any more questions feel free to ask, I tried to make it as short as possible.

 

Says who? Moreover, why do you take it upon yourself to inform us?

 

I personally know them...family and friends (plus people online who seem to fit that category).

 

You got some explaining to do Kir. Religion is not necessary for a social network. Mature humans can figure out how to live without god. If you need god just maybe you haven't quite grown up yet. Your pic looks like you're about 13 and you're telling us what to do???

 

It's not about maturity. Thanks for the compliment though...just add 10 years to that number.

 

Christians tend not to like being told by their kids how to act.

 

Okay I'll back off. You're probably older than you look. But still, who are you? Why are you here? What do you intend to accomplish? What puts you on the impression that you know some secret knowledge that we don't? Again, READ OUR STORIES before you make assumptions.

 

Lots of xians take half a look at the name of our website, then come barging in here telling us what we should be doing. You look an awful lot like them. Enlighten us so we don't get wrong impressions. Write your anti-testimony.

 

I know more Christians than not who are kind, compassionate, and do not run around emotionally terrorizing other people. They are kind people but from being in this group I have to recognize that there is a very good chance that I'm not in the majority and if that is the case then neither are the Christians that I know. I'm an International Studies Major with a concentration in globalization and culture so I end up viewing different cultures and belief systems from an outsiders perspective. Christianity is no exception to me. I give it the same respect that I give all the other religions that I look at.

[Japedo]

If you do not believe then why do you care so much about what they think? It's the ones who make an impact on the laws of the state/nation that you should worry about.

 

Kir, . We "Care" because many of our family members, friends and ourselves have been effected by the death cult. Not to mention as you have stated as we do worry... they have a huge influence on laws and infringements on our nation.

 

I debate about how they go about proselytizing. I don't believe in their God, I don't believe in trying to stop them from worshiping their God, I don't agree with the way that their beliefs in their God affect my Country.

 

 

I'm interested in what particulars you debate, it seems you do nothing but defend them here as being nice and misunderstood. In fact it's us you try to paint as being unreasonable. I don't believe I have read from you an attempt to understand where we're coming from, it seems it is us you want to change. You also claim to have never met a fundy so you statement here is contradictory.

 

I can't stand it when Muslims say they are fighting Christians when they fight the US because I myself and others in my country are not Christian.

 

I'll let you in on a secret. Many Christians also believe this to be a war over beliefs. You should be angry at anyone who supports this war, it's all bullshit reasons anyways.

 

Example:

"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war."

Ann Coulter

[Kirangel]

I'm not out to change anybody, all I care about is getting and keeping them out of power. I've debated about a lot of things with them, the problem of evil in this world and the way that fits into the Christian paradigm is one of the bigger ones.

 

Ann Coulter is obnoxious, she also said that Canada is lucky we don't role over and crush them.

[crazy-tiger]

If you do not believe then why do you care so much about what they think? It's the ones who make an impact on the laws of the state/nation that you should worry about.

If they believe, why do they care so much about what we think? Since only Christians have any impact on the Laws of the US, why do they react so angrily if a non-Christian gets into Congress/Senate?

 

They insist on trying to run OUR lives according to THEIR beliefs. That kind of thing needs to be stopped and that is a very good reason to hate the Institution.

I debate about how they go about proselytizing. I don't believe in their God, I don't believe in trying to stop them from worshiping their God, I don't agree with the way that their beliefs in their God affect my Country. I can't stand it when Muslims say they are fighting Christians when they fight the US because I myself and others in my country are not Christian.

So, you will grant most of them the respect that they deny you... You allow them to get away with what we're talking about doing here, yet take us to task for just talking about retaliating when they offend us??

 

 

You exhibit a set of nasty, hypocritical double standards there... typical of Fundie behaviour. Typical of the crap that gets shoveled onto most of us on a daily basis!

[Kirangel]

What do I allow them to get away with?

 

What double standards?

 

 

I think you misunderstand me.

[Robbobrob]

Garnet, I just wanted to add my name to the list of people who understand your anger. That pastor has added a component to your grief that you did not need. You now are stuck with not only working through the justifiable grief about losing your mother, but have towork through the anger you feel toward that Nitwit pastor.

 

It reminds me of a funeral I attended a few years ago. It was my grandfather-in-law (at the time). My ex-wife's family is mostly Jewish. Her father was CAtholic, and it was his father that had died. The service was obviously held in a Catholic church. Many of my ex's relatives on her mom's side (all Jewish) came out to the service.

 

For those of you how may not have seen Catholic services, they have a lot of standing, sitting, kneeing, etc. We always kid that we are going to our exercise class when we attend for family events.

 

The priest knew the family dynamic. The grandfather had been in that church for decades. He knew he had a large non-Catholic group in the church.

 

HE GAVE NO INSTRUCTIONS to when we should stand up, sit down, etc. In fact, he got all irritated that most of the people did not know what to do. HE huffed and frowned at times.

 

He ruined the funeral. After the service, everyone was talking about his arrogant behavior, and not about the great man who had passed away. It was awful.

 

That was several years ago. And my anger can be just as furious now as it was then.

 

I hope you can find a daily peace in your own mind for what happened to you. The anger will hang around, but try to focus on the love of your mother, not the idiocy of the pastor. It helps.

[Vigile]

all I care about is getting and keeping them out of power.

 

If you live in a democracy where the majority of the voters are christian, then they are already in power.

 

What's wrong with improving the education system so that 21st century citizens living in a technologically and economically advanced country do not continue to be duped by bronze age superstitions?

[Garnet]

Robbobrob,

 

Your post hit the nail right on the head. It's the arrogance and the rigidity of the pastor in my case and the priest in yours that is really astonishing when you think about it without the filters of religion in place. If an atheist had stood up at either funeral and said, "This is all a bunch of hogwash, really. There's no such thing as heaven, they're just dead," the condemnation would have been nearly universal. But when it's a Christian person, particularly a Christian leader, most people don't bat an eyelash. An the receiver of such "love" is considered to be out of line if they get upset.

 

It's as if my mourning is less important, somehow less justified, because I'm an atheist. Well, bullshit.

[Lycorth]

If you do not believe then why do you care so much about what they think? It's the ones who make an impact on the laws of the state/nation that you should worry about.

If they believe, why do they care so much about what we think? Since only Christians have any impact on the Laws of the US, why do they react so angrily if a non-Christian gets into Congress/Senate?

 

So very true :angry:

 

I don't think Kir understands why it is necessary to oppose certain things. Not believing in them has nothing to do with it. Cops don't believe in murder, yet they oppose murderers - but that's one example out of many.

 

If something is wrong, we have a moral obligation to oppose it. Not just say we don't want them in power, but to say that we oppose their ideology and want it gone. It's not about being consumed with hatred to the point of not being able to function unless we dwell upon it, it's about taking the proper moral stance on an issue. Simple as that.

 

Kir, go to a Xian website and try to sell them the tripe that since they don't believe as we do that they should not worry about converting non-xians. See how far you'll get

[crazy-tiger]

What do I allow them to get away with?

 

What double standards?

You tried reading what you post? You're taking people to task for TALKING about giving Christians a taste of their own medicine, while allowing said Christians the freedom to be offensive...

I think you misunderstand me.

No, I understand you alright... and I see through the crap you're spouting.

 

 

I've read almost all your posts and all I see is a Christian Apologiser... one that's not doing a good job of hiding.

[Lycorth]

I've read almost all your posts and all I see is a Christian Apologiser... one that's not doing a good job of hiding.

 

I'm starting to think the same. Hell, I wondered from the very beginning. And she wonders why we hate Xianity; now that they can't force us to kneel and accept Jebus at sword point, all they can do is sneak around in the shadows like spiritual drug pushers, trying to trick us into buying their poison.

 

Fucker :angry:

[Kirangel]

all I care about is getting and keeping them out of power.

 

If you live in a democracy where the majority of the voters are christian, then they are already in power.

 

What's wrong with improving the education system so that 21st century citizens living in a technologically and economically advanced country do not continue to be duped by bronze age superstitions?

 

How many schools teach bronze age superstitions? The education system could definitely stand for improvement at least in the US, our ranking in the world is not the greatest.

[Kirangel]

No crazy-tiger, you do not understand me correctly.

 

I do not support a lot of what Christians do, I support their right to their own beliefs, I even commend the ones who actually put a hell of a lot of effort into examining their religion and their beliefs.

 

I do not support emotional trauma caused by Christians. I do not support the extreme views such as those held by WBC members who go around emotionally terrorizing others, marching outside of the funerals of grieving families saying their child is going to go to hell. I do not agree with Christians when they say that AIDS is the cure to homosexuality, it is despicable. What that pastor did to Garnet was absolutely deplorable, Garnet reacting in anger was completely justified.

 

I have spent time trying to understand where you guys come from. I have not come across too many Christians like those described here. When I left Christianity I agreed to talk to a priest for my moms sake. All I really remember him saying was that God is good and God is love. I just sat there, thinking its all lies...that the God described in their holy book is a cruel being.

 

I do not appreciate getting practically attacked in these forums for expressing my views, discuss things with me if you want...ignore me completely but do not call me something that I have fought long and hard to disassociate myself from. (This goes for Varokhar as well)

 

NO, I do not hate Christianity and I do not think that it should be abolished. There's good and evil in everything, religions are no exception. I lay the blame at the feet of human beings and not the world paradigms that they construct, without religions they would find another way to manipulate and control people. The fact that I actually find some Christian traditions interesting, and do not hate the religion does not make me one of them. I've always enjoyed studying different belief systems, Native American Spirituality is really interesting.

 

If there's something that I've missed that has people confused then please let me know and I will try to clear it up (in another thread). I'm not sure which is worse having people call me a Christian when I'm not one, or having people believe that I have come here to deceive them.

 

 

@ Garnet, I'm sorry for taking this a little bit off track from your original post. I don't know what else to say to you though, all I can do is give you my condolences and reaffirm what others have said, that your reaction was justified and what the pastor did was terrible.

[R. S. Martin]

How many schools teach bronze age superstitions?

 

HUH????

 

Do as I advised you--READ OUR POSTS.

 

You're up to your eyeballs in bronze age superstitions.

 

So you think your post Not a Christian is your ex-T?

 

Okay-dokey fine!

 

On that thread you claim that you are not a christian. On this thread you talk like the most thoroughbred fundy we have ever seen. Nowhere do you tell us why you believe what you believe. You brag about how much you fight. You put us down for not measuring up to your ideals. Maybe if you had not tried to make it so short we could have gotten a better sense of who you are. You know, you can still post an ex-T.

 

You're only twenty-three (yes I finally thought to check your profile) but you pretend to have so much wisdom. We know wisdom when we see it.

 

You're on a new forum. Allow us to get a good impression.

[R. S. Martin]

Kirangel, I apologize. I looked up your post Not a Christian. I see you were unable to post on all the forums at the time. Sorry.

[Kirangel]

How many schools teach bronze age superstitions?

 

HUH????

 

Do as I advised you--READ OUR POSTS.

 

You're up to your eyeballs in bronze age superstitions.

 

So you think your post Not a Christian is your ex-T?

 

Okay-dokey fine!

 

On that thread you claim that you are not a christian. On this thread you talk like the most thoroughbred fundy we have ever seen. Nowhere do you tell us why you believe what you believe. You brag about how much you fight. You put us down for not measuring up to your ideals. Maybe if you had not tried to make it so short we could have gotten a better sense of who you are. You know, you can still post an ex-T.

 

You're only twenty-three (yes I finally thought to check your profile) but you pretend to have so much wisdom. We know wisdom when we see it.

 

You're on a new forum. Allow us to get a good impression.

 

That's the thing though, I am not up to my eyeballs in bronze age superstitions, I come from a very liberal town and in my experiences here most Christians I know do not even go to church regularly. Yes I've always known that fundies were out there, but I never realized how many. They are dying breed here. The ones I know, even the ones I've met on-line do not fit the categories that many of you describe. I talked about the numbers in another post, it is a bit disturbing, especially the speech I saw by Huckabee about evolution. I admit though it appears I have underestimated the amount of evolution rejecting fundies out there.

 

I've bragged about nothing.

 

I do not pretend to have wisdom, I just state my views.

 

I think many of you have already put me into a certain category and read what I write in a different light so that the message gets changed.

 

Where do I talk like a fundie? Can you point out one or two specific statements in this thread that I've made which lead you to make that claim so that I can see it?

[Kirangel]

Kirangel, I apologize. I looked up your post Not a Christian. I see you were unable to post on all the forums at the time. Sorry.

 

Yeah, that was kind of my fault and the point of my Not a Christian post. I guess I haven't really given an ex-T.

[crazy-tiger]

No crazy-tiger, you do not understand me correctly.

 

I do not support a lot of what Christians do, I support their right to their own beliefs, I even commend the ones who actually put a hell of a lot of effort into examining their religion and their beliefs.

When part of their beliefs is the command to go out and convert others to their beliefs, you support them being offensive to others...

 

That's the double standard, the one you asked about... by supporting Christians in being offensive, yet taking us to task for talking about doing the same, you show a double standard. Although, this one might be one you didn't even know you had...

I do not support emotional trauma caused by Christians. I do not support the extreme views such as those held by WBC members who go around emotionally terrorizing others, marching outside of the funerals of grieving families saying their child is going to go to hell. I do not agree with Christians when they say that AIDS is the cure to homosexuality, it is despicable. What that pastor did to Garnet was absolutely deplorable, Garnet reacting in anger was completely justified.

It doesn't have to be extreme to cause emotional trauma!

What are the core beliefs of Christianity? That all Humanity is an evil, worthless fuck-up that deserves to be tortured for eternity...

 

Offensive? Sure is! Something that should be supported and allowed to be spread about, making people feels like they're worthless shits? Hell no!

Yet you support that... you believe that it's fine for people to spread that belief around, offending people left, right and center.

I have spent time trying to understand where you guys come from. I have not come across too many Christians like those described here. When I left Christianity I agreed to talk to a priest for my moms sake. All I really remember him saying was that God is good and God is love. I just sat there, thinking its all lies...that the God described in their holy book is a cruel being.

 

I do not appreciate getting practically attacked in these forums for expressing my views, discuss things with me if you want...ignore me completely but do not call me something that I have fought long and hard to disassociate myself from. (This goes for Varokhar as well)

Amazing... you realize that Christianity is bollocks. But you didn't notice just what harm the core beliefs do... This is the problem. You apologize for the beliefs, trying to blame it on the people instead.

 

You were right, in a way... you're not a Christian Apologizer... you are a Christianity Apologizer!

NO, I do not hate Christianity and I do not think that it should be abolished. There's good and evil in everything, religions are no exception. I lay the blame at the feet of human beings and not the world paradigms that they construct, without religions they would find another way to manipulate and control people. The fact that I actually find some Christian traditions interesting, and do not hate the religion does not make me one of them. I've always enjoyed studying different belief systems, Native American Spirituality is really interesting.

Go take another look at the core belief of Christianity... then come back and tell us that it should be allowed to stay.

 

Quite frankly, it's a brain-washing system... and the only people who can see any good in that are the people who have something to gain from people being brain-washed.

If there's something that I've missed that has people confused then please let me know and I will try to clear it up (in another thread). I'm not sure which is worse having people call me a Christian when I'm not one, or having people believe that I have come here to deceive them.

Well, either you're here trying to deceive us... or you're deceived yourself and don't know it.

 

 

Do you know that by supporting the 'less' offensive parts of Christianity, you are legitamizing the more offensive parts? Did you know that what you support allows things like the extreme views such as those held by WBC members who go around emotionally terrorizing others, marching outside of the funerals of grieving families saying their child is going to go to hell, and what the Pastor did to Garnet?

 

Horrifying, isn't it? To discover that the very thing you say you're against, that is deplorable... is the very thing you're helping to continue...

[Vigile]

How many schools teach bronze age superstitions?

 

You miss the point. The US is the current hegemony. It is an industrialized nation with the leading economy. At the same time, it is swimming with citizens, products of their education, who are still bedazzled by ancient superstition. This glaring level of ignorance is a stain on the education system. These ignoramuses in turn vote and because the US is a democracy, they necessarily hold a significant portion of the reigns.

[Vigile]

I support their right to their own beliefs,

 

So do I and probably every last person on this board. Supporting their rights and liking or even tolerating their beliefs are two different animals.

[Vigile]

NO, I do not hate Christianity and I do not think that it should be abolished. There's good and evil in everything, religions are no exception.

 

Where have you seen anyone on this board discuss abolishing religion? Educated it away, yes, legislate it away, or force it away by any means, no.

 

There are some, probably many, xians who don't digest the meaning of their beliefs and as such their religion is probably not necessarily a harmful thing to themselves or society. Nevertheless, is there good in the belief of racism? This is an example that eradicates your premise that there is good and bad in everything. The basic tenets of xian belief are bad (man is evil in need of redemption, saved vs. unsaved, etc.), whether the individual parishioner examines them or not.

[Vigile]

come from a very liberal town and in my experiences here most Christians I know do not even go to church regularly. Yes I've always known that fundies were out there, but I never realized how many. They are dying breed here. The ones I know, even the ones I've met on-line do not fit the categories that many of you describe.

 

Lucky you. Could it be then that your views could be described as quite provincial and that they don't reflect the reality that exists on a larger scale across the US?

[Japedo]

come from a very liberal town and in my experiences here most Christians I know do not even go to church regularly. Yes I've always known that fundies were out there, but I never realized how many. They are dying breed here. The ones I know, even the ones I've met on-line do not fit the categories that many of you describe.

 

Lucky you. Could it be then that your views could be described as quite provincial and that they don't reflect the reality that exists on a larger scale across the US?

 

 

I don't know how much more liberal one can get then the godless Northeast New England. There are fundys everywhere even in liberal cities. Either Kir doesn't discuss religion and has no idea about the degree of fundys around her, or willingly turns a blind eye to it. Either way, I'm willing to bet she has fundy churches in her town/city.