woodsmoke Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 Kirangel, Xianity is built on the idea that human beings are all wickedly evil and deserving only of eternal punishment. This is not us twisting Xian concepts of "sin" and "hell" but merely properly understanding them as they have been traditionally taught for over two thousand years. The fact that you have a very liberalized and untraditional take on Xianity does not alter the fact that traditional Xian teaching is precisely as everyone else here has summed up. Like Vigile said, it's right from the Babble - all have sinned and fallen short - what about that don't you understand? ------------- Your own spin on Xianity doesn't change what Xianity really is. Exactly. Vigile, Japedo, Varokhar, GH; they're not the ones misunderstanding and misrepresenting here, Kir. You are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirangel Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 Kirangel, Xianity is built on the idea that human beings are all wickedly evil and deserving only of eternal punishment. This is not us twisting Xian concepts of "sin" and "hell" but merely properly understanding them as they have been traditionally taught for over two thousand years. The fact that you have a very liberalized and untraditional take on Xianity does not alter the fact that traditional Xian teaching is precisely as everyone else here has summed up. Like Vigile said, it's right from the Babble - all have sinned and fallen short - what about that don't you understand? ------------- Your own spin on Xianity doesn't change what Xianity really is. Exactly. Vigile, Japedo, Varokhar, GH; they're not the ones misunderstanding and misrepresenting here, Kir. You are. I've already stated that christianity teaches all have sinned and all have fallen short, what people here seem not to understand is that what I'm arguing in favor of is different. Christians are creations of God, most christian groups will tell you that God does not create evil. Sin is perversion of the good that God created, but the fact that humans sin and christians recognize it doesn't make it so that Christians teach that humans are evil being. What I said in the original statement got COMPLETELY twisted around. Christianity does not tell you that you are evil, it tells you that the sin is, it tells you that you are an imperfect being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirangel Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 Japedo, you would have to be blind to not realize the positive aspects of hope that's found in religions, it's a place where people can turn to to escape the miserable world that we live in. Hope of a more promising future of something better to come...that's what makes it appealling to people. If a persons world is a living hell and the hope brought to that person by a religion is the only thing helping them to get by then great, good for them I'm all for it. False hope is as harmful as no hope at all. Delusions are not healthy. What you are describing here is the same kind of escapism found in most drug addicts. A good philosophy should give you the tools to deal with reality, not try to change the nature of reality to make it more palatable. Personally, I don't teach unless asked. But if I'm asked, hells yes I will do all in my power to show them what I see as the fallacies of their position. IMOHO, Believing that you are going to be in heaven with God when you die and using that belief to make your life a little less miserable is not harmful. Drug addictions are, you cannot compare the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 Japedo, you would have to be blind to not realize the positive aspects of hope that's found in religions, it's a place where people can turn to to escape the miserable world that we live in. Oh boy, I missed this one. My own mother has to live in dire fear that her son is going to burn in hell for all eternity because he now rejects the claims of xianity. And from what I've read on this board from other members, she's not alone. When I was a xian with hope for my own soul, I lived in dire fear for the souls of all the unsaved. Unless one is totally selfish and can be satisfied only with the salvation of their own skin, then others suffer from the same fears. Hope doesn't get any better than this. As far as escaping the world, the truth is, it puts a spin on the world outside of the xian faith in such a way that believers fear the world and see it as something that is cursed and wicked. Are there positive psychological impacts of belief? Sure, no one would deny this. We just argue that the price for these is pretty darn high and that they must be weighed against the negatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 Christianity does not tell you that you are evil, it tells you that the sin is, it tells you that you are an imperfect being. And what we are telling you is that you are wrong on this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirangel Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 You paint religion as some savior from the dark cold cruel world. No I don't but I maintain that it can be for some people. I'm not going to sit here and defend christianity as a whole. My beliefs are up in the air, they change as I learn more and right now I'm more of a deist, but if I ever accepted anything similar to christianity it would be gnosticism. If the OT God exists then it is a cruel being. People have had their Gods throughout history, it's not just something that is there to explain the way things work...some people need their sky Gods, it's always been that way. The lady was insane... I watched Borat the other night, that Church looked like a lot more fun then any of my Catholic ones. I'm usually good at maintaining my composure but I don't think I would be able to keep a straight face in a situation like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirangel Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 Are there positive psychological impacts of belief? Sure, no one would deny this. We just argue that the price for these is pretty darn high and that they must be weighed against the negatives. I never made any claim as to whether or not the price would be to high, yet whenever I said that there were positive influences people made long posts of how horrible christianity was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirangel Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 Christianity does not tell you that you are evil, it tells you that the sin is, it tells you that you are an imperfect being. And what we are telling you is that you are wrong on this point. Prove it. The only websites that I can find which state that christianity teaches that humans are evil are atheist and anti-christian ones. *edit* I can't find much at all on it which suggests that either my research skills in this case are lacking (if you find anything good let me know what you searched for), or it's just not important enough to discuss, meaning it is not a key tenet of their faith...which was the original claim. All fall short of God, all humans sin and need to repent....those are more important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodsmoke Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 I've already stated that christianity teaches all have sinned and all have fallen short, what people here seem not to understand is that what I'm arguing in favor of is different. Then what you're arguing in favor of is not Christianity. Christians are creations of God, most christian groups will tell you that God does not create evil. And those Christian groups would be wrong. According to their own Holey Babble, God created everything. Sin is perversion of the good that God created, but the fact that humans sin and christians recognize it doesn't make it so that Christians teach that humans are evil being. What I said in the original statement got COMPLETELY twisted around. Except that's exactly what Christianity teaches. Without God to hold our hand and prevent us from stepping out of line, humanity is nothing but a bunch of filthy, no good shits capable of nothing more than dishonesty, abuse, depravity and general wickedness. There's no manipulation going on there. That is the cornerstone of Christianity; the very core principle upon which it is founded. Christianity does not tell you that you are evil, it tells you that the sin is, it tells you that you are an imperfect being. Now you're the one manipulating, though probably not maliciously given what seems your obvious ignorance of true Christianity. You're right, Christianity teaches sin is evil. It also teaches humanity is an imperfect, sinful creature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Follier Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 To bring it down a couple notches, what do Christians attribute all of mankind's wicked actions to? Our "sin nature." By definition, nature means that we have no choice in the matter but will follow along a predestined path... the path that our "nature" intends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodsmoke Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 Edit: To bring it down a couple notches, what do Christians attribute all of mankind's wicked actions to? Our "sinful nature." By definition, nature means that we have no choice in the matter but will follow along a predestined path... the path that our "nature" intends. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 Prove it. What proof would be sufficient? You are on a website full of people who used to practice this belief. I was raised in it and practiced it for 25 years. I'm fairly well read on the topic, have done my time with the apologetics, comparative religions, etc. Others here went to bible school, were pastors, etc. We are telling you that you are wrong, so it seems that you are the one making the extraordinary claim, not us, the X's who are in a consensus on this issue. It seems to me you need to prove your claim, not us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolution_beyond Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 Christianity does not tell you that you are evil, it tells you that the sin is, it tells you that you are an imperfect being. ok, so according to you: christianity tells us that human beings are flawed - no arguments there it also tells us that the 'sin' is what is evil - I assume this means that the action itself is what is evil (harmful, dangerous). Again, I agree but if that is the case then why does God send the sinner to hell? Why punish people for being flawed? If the person is not evil, merely the actions they perform - then how can a compassionate God set things up so that they will be punished for all eternity? That is a cruel and intolerant God. And Christianity is a cruel and harmful creed for supporting such an abusive deity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Follier Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 Due to time constraints, I haven't been catching or contributing to nearly as many topics as I would like to recently so this question may have an obvious answer in previous threads; if so, I apologize. Could Kirangel possibly be tagged incorrectly as an Ex-C or is he/she just playing the devil's advocate? I always find it helpful to have accurate generalized tags on other posters so I can modify my contributions accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirangel Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 "I've already stated that christianity teaches all have sinned and all have fallen short, what people here seem not to understand is that what I'm arguing in favor of is different." Then what you're arguing in favor of is not Christianity. No, I did not make that very clear. What I meant is that I am not challenging that Christians teach all have sinned and fallen short, I was challenging the claim that all Christians view humanity as evil. And those Christian groups would be wrong. According to their own Holey Babble, God created everything. Irrelevant, interpret it that way too, they do not. It's Christian apologetics 101. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodsmoke Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 No, I did not make that very clear. What I meant is that I am not challenging that Christians teach all have sinned and fallen short, I was challenging the claim that all Christians view humanity as evil. Ah, I see. It seems we may be arguing past each other. You're stating most Christians don't think of humanity as inherently evil, and I'm stating the core doctrine of the Christian religion is the sinfulness/wickedness of humanity's nature. In which case, we're both right. Irrelevant, interpret it that way too, they do not. It's Christian apologetics 101. It's not irrelevant, it's the exact content of their own gorram sacred text! If Christians interpret it differently, they're being disingenuous and manipulating the clear meaning thereof to fit their personal bias (which is, of course, nothing new). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirangel Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 Prove it. What proof would be sufficient? You are on a website full of people who used to practice this belief. I was raised in it and practiced it for 25 years. I'm fairly well read on the topic, have done my time with the apologetics, comparative religions, etc. Others here went to bible school, were pastors, etc. We are telling you that you are wrong, so it seems that you are the one making the extraordinary claim, not us, the X's who are in a consensus on this issue. It seems to me you need to prove your claim, not us. So I take you couldn't find anything either? Did your pastors preach that you were all evil beings, did he/she say it in those exact words? My priests never did, they would say to hate not the sinner but the sin, that we all need to repent for our actions (not for our being), theres nothing on-line that I can find that suggests one thing over another, and the bible could be interpreted in a way to support both. The simple fact that the Christians where I am from (and all of the catholics that I have asked in person...all two of them , I'll get more opinions tonight) have stated that Christianity does not teach that humans are evil. There are some out there who believe this so it is not a core belief of Christianity if some Christians have opinions that are contrary to it. I might take polls in a few christian forums...I'll let you all know what I find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 I'm not sure... I can usually spot another Devil's Advocate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 OK - Original sin According to Christian theology, original sin (also called ancestral sin, hereditary sin, birth sin, or person sin) is the fallen state of humanity. In the history of Christianity this condition has been characterized as something as insignificant as a slight deficiency to something as drastic as total depravity. Western Christian tradition regards it as the general condition of sinfulness (lack of holiness) into which human beings are born, distinct from any actual sins that a person may or may not commit later. Eastern Christian Tradition too identifies Original Sin as physical and spiritual death, the spiritual death being the loss of "the grace of God, which quickened (the soul) with the higher and spiritual life"[1] Others see original sin also as the cause of actual sins: "a bad tree bears bad fruit" (Matthew 7:17, NIV), although, in this view, original and actual sin may be difficult to distinguish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piprus Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 So I take you couldn't find anything either? Did your pastors preach that you were all evil beings, did he/she say it in those exact words? My priests never did, they would say to hate not the sinner but the sin, that we all need to repent for our actions (not for our being), theres nothing on-line that I can find that suggests one thing over another, and the bible could be interpreted in a way to support both. The simple fact that the Christians where I am from (and all of the catholics that I have asked in person...all two of them , I'll get more opinions tonight) have stated that Christianity does not teach that humans are evil. There are some out there who believe this so it is not a core belief of Christianity if some Christians have opinions that are contrary to it. I might take polls in a few christian forums...I'll let you all know what I find. Perhaps this will help you, Kir... I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7) The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth. (Genesis 8:21) It seems to me, Kir, that you've never been to Fundieville. You keep coming up with RC views, and in the Fundieland I grew up in catholics were seen as idol-worshippers, bound for hell, and not even considered christians. And to answer your question, oh yes...it was preached to me every sunday that we were evil beings, deserving of hellfire from birth, and that the only remedy was pleading the shed blood of jesus to "wash away" the sin for "without the shedding of blood there is no remission". In other words, repentance isn't good enough. "Ye must be born again". The fact that humans are evil IS a core belief of fundamentalist xianity, and many of us ex-christians are ex-fundies. Look at the quotes above. To a fundy, that is literally God speaking. Don't try to parse the words, for it is a grievous sin to alter even one punctuation mark of the inerrant and infallible word of god. This is the crap we learned as children. Do you still want to try and convince me and the others that such a horror-construct for living is in any way beneficial? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 Believing that you are going to be in heaven with God when you die and using that belief to make your life a little less miserable is not harmful. Drug addictions are, you cannot compare the two. Um, Kir, to accept that statement I would need to accept that life on this earth is miserable. When I kicked Jesus to the curb and got rid of god, life started looking up for me. Things might work the same way for you if you ever dared try it. In other words RELIGION MAKES PEOPLE MISERABLE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 Funny... since you support their right to their beliefs, you are supporting their 'right' to be offensive pricks... Belief does not equal action. You're logic in this case is non-existant. If they've got a firm belief that they have the RIGHT to spread their beliefs around, and they do have that belief, (hell, it's something they believe their Messiah COMMANDED them to do) and if that belief is offensive, then by supporting their right to those beliefs you are indeed supporting their right to be offensive pricks. Do you get it? Their belief gives them the right to be offensive... hell, it's a fucking GOD-GIVEN RIGHT! Their belief is that EVERYONE is an evil, worthless fuck-up that deserves to be tortured for all eternity No it's not, that's just your spin on it. Go read the fucking Bible sometime... the constant message is that Humans are nothing more than evil sinners and that the vast, vast majority of them are going to be tortured for eternity. If someone came up to you and said "You're an evil, worthless fuck-up who deserves to be tortured for all eternity" you'd be offended... yet you support their 'right' to do that. Once you cut away the chaff, once you look at the very base of it, you spot the problem. By supporting their right to an offensive belief, you are supporting their right to be offensive. Depends, but probably not. People who say that to me are not worth my time or my concern. No I do not support their right be verbally abusive, but I do support their right to believe that. *sigh* Once more... their belief, the one you support their right to, COMMANDS THEM to spread the belief. The belief is offensive, especially when it's so prevalent that you can't get away from it. You support their right to an offensive belief... you support their right to spread that belief... (if you don't, so fucking much for free speech and how you only debate HOW they spread it) you are supporting, whether you like to admit it or not, their "right" to be offensive to others. (and perpetuating an offensive belief IS offensive, by the way) Core belief... Humanity is an evil, worthless fuck-up that deserves to be tortured for all eternity. You want to come up with some examples of just how that has helped people? It saved my mother. People who go through very difficult times need some way to cope with it, religion can serve as that coping method and when it helps to lesson suffering in their lives then I am all for it. Your mother was comforted by the belief that that she was an evil, worthless fuck-up that deserved to be tortured for all eternity?? I'm sorry to say but I very much doubt your mother had THAT belief in mind... all she was doing was taking comfort from a false belief. (harsh, but true) Now, this is fun... but since I'm not trying to force my beliefs on others, you're barking up the wrong fucking tree. I view religion as a barrel of apples... you need to get rid of the rotten ones before they taint the rest. Since Christianity and it's beliefs are rotten at the core, out it goes. Not just the ones that show just how rotten they are, but also the ones that have a nice pretty outside... just because it looks good on the outside doesn't mean the rot at the core is suddenly gone. “out it goes” To do that you would have to influence them in their beliefs in the same way that they try to influence you with yours. Nope... no influence at all... But, no longer tolerating the offensiveness of those beliefs and their 'mission' to spread that offensiveness around. After a while, the religion will fade into the mists of history... and it'll be one less cult that celebrates human sacrifice staining Humanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 Japedo, you would have to be blind to not realize the positive aspects of hope that's found in religions, it's a place where people can turn to to escape the miserable world that we live in. Hope of a more promising future of something better to come...that's what makes it appealling to people. If a persons world is a living hell and the hope brought to that person by a religion is the only thing helping them to get by then great, good for them I'm all for it. That my friend, is the kind of hope that I was talking about. Hope? Yeah, it gives hope... Right after it's ground any kind of self-confidence, self-esteem, sense of worth, sense of personal responsibility out of a person. It leaches anything good out of a person, pounds a message of evil, worthless humanity into them... then, when they're at their lowest point, holds out a helping hand. The same methods are used to brainwash people... also used to 'groom' victims for sexual abuse, along with make sure it's very hard for spousal abuse victims to even think about leaving. Yeah, if a person's world is a living hell, chances are Christianity is the thing that made it that way! Yes christianity has had a negative impact on people and caused a great deal of grief for many...but it has helped as well not just on small individual levels but on a larger scale like with their charity work. Mind if I quote Mother Teresa..? "suffering is good for the soul" How about that? Something that's a fucking core belief of Catholics... and it's not gonna help that many people, is it? (one reason why so many people hate the way she worked... doing harm to "help" them after they die) Defend it all you like... the simple fact is, Christianity is an offensive, despicable belief at heart. If you can't see that, you really need to look a little closer. Oh, and the few Christians who hang around here... (you know who you are) You guys are so far from the typical Christian in your beliefs I cannot in good conscience class you as Christians. I wouldn't want to insult you with that label... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 Christianity does not tell you that you are evil, it tells you that the sin is, it tells you that you are an imperfect being. And what we are telling you is that you are wrong on this point. Prove it. The only websites that I can find which state that christianity teaches that humans are evil are atheist and anti-christian ones. Hey Kir, How about stepping into a church sometime. WTF? You can't find a website so you disbelieve claims of Dogma that you sit here in denial and defend. Oh Yes only the wicked Atheist and Anti-Christian websites spread lies about the 'righteous dogma'. I'm sorry but you might not call yourself a Christian but you most certainly are an apologist. I refuse to allow you to color Atheists and non-Christians with a tainted brush that we attack innocent places like the Cult, Ask and you will receive. All Bold emphasis are mine, All --- means different/separate clips of the particular page but I cut things out that weren't relevant to the topic at hand. Click on the links to view it in it's full. Lets first look at your Catholice Encyclopedia: Evil, in a large sense, may be described as the sum of the opposition, which experience shows to exist in the universe, to the desires and needs of individuals; whence arises, among humans beings at least, the sufferings in which life abounds. Thus evil, from the point of view of human welfare, is what ought not to exist. Nevertheless, there is no department of human life in which its presence is not felt; and the discrepancy between what is and what ought to be has always called for explanation in the account which mankind has sought to give of itself and its surroundings. For this purpose it is necessary (1) to define the precise nature of the principle that imparts the character of evil to so great a variety of circumstances, and (2) to ascertain, as far as may be possible, to source from which it arises. With regard to the nature of evil, it should be observed that evil is of three kinds -- physical, moral, and metaphysical. Physical evil includes all that causes harm to man, whether by bodily injury, by thwarting his natural desires, or by preventing the full development of his powers, either in the order of nature directly, or through the various social conditions under which mankind naturally exists. Physical evils directly due to nature are sickness, accident, death, etc. Poverty, oppression, and some forms of disease are instances of evil arising from imperfect social organization. Mental suffering, such as anxiety, disappointment, and remorse, and the limitation of intelligence which prevents humans beings from attaining to the full comprehension of their environment, are congenital forms of evil each vary in character and degree according to natural disposition and social circumstances. Catholic Encyclopedia The Assembly of God Chruch's Doctrine: 4. The Fall of Man - Man was created good and upright; for God said, "Let us make man in our own image, after our likeness." However, man by voluntary transgression fell and thereby incurred not only physical death but also spiritual death, which is separation from God. (Genesis 1:26,27, Genesis 2:17, Genesis 3:6, Romans 5:12-19) 5. The Salvation of Man - Man's only hope of redemption is through the shed blood of Jesus Christ the Son of God. Conditions to Salvation - Salvation is received through repentance toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ. By the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, being justified by grace through faith, man becomes an heir of God, according to the hope of eternal life. (Luke 24:47, John 3:3, Romans 10:13-15, Ephesians 2:8, Titus 2:11, Titus 3:5-7) The Evidence of Salvation - The inward evidence of salvation is the direct witness of the Spirit. (Romans 8:16) The outward evidence to all men is a life of righteousness and true holiness. (Ephesians 4:24, Titus 2:12) --------- Since God's purpose concerning man is to seek and to save that which is lost, to be worshipped by man, and to build a body of believers in the image of His Son, the priority reason for being of the Assemblies of God as part of the Church is: To be an agency of God for evangelizing the world. (Acts 1:8, Matthew 28:19,20, Mark 16:15,16) To be a corporate body in which man may worship God (1 Corinthians 12:13) To be a channel of God's purpose to build a body of saints being perfected in the image of His Son. (Ephesians 4:11-16, 1 Corinthians 12:28, 1 Corinthians 14:12) -------- 15. The Final Judgment - There will be a final judgment in which the wicked dead will be raised and judged according to their works. Whosoever is not found written in the Book of Life, together with the devil and his angels, the beast and the false prophet, will be consigned to the everlasting punishment in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. (Matthew 25:46, Mark 9:43-48, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:11-15, Revelation 21:8) ass of god on wikip. Baptist Man is the pinnacle of God's creation and the only being on the earth whom God made in His own personal image, with the moral ability to choose right from wrong. Every person, although endowed with the image of God, inherited a disobedient heart from Adam, the very first man. This attitude of disobedience (called sin in the bible) - unless rectified through Jesus Christ - forever keeps man from forming a relationship with his Creator. This attitude also keeps us from being the kind of person God created us to be.---- While God will one day do away with all evil, He currently allows evil in the world - which provides mankind with a choice. Satan is the source of all evil and will suffer an eternity of separation from God for his choices. (Hell was originally prepared for the devil and his demons). Evil is present in the world because of mankind's choice in the Garden of Eden. Because of Jesus, we have the opportunity to choose the goodness of God's grace over evil. While God could eliminate evil immediately, He endures the grief of waiting to do so in order to give more people the opportunity to come to faith in Him. God is able to cause all things, even the evil in this world, to work together for the good of those who love Him. ----- God made you to exist forever. Heaven is a perfect place, and since none of us is perfect we were all headed for an eternity of seperation from God. That's why God sent Jesus: to pay the price for our sins so that we can spend eternity with Him. What you decide about Jesus Christ in this life will determine where you will spend eternity. If you reject Him, you'll spend it eternally seperated from God in Hell. If you accept Him (please read the paragraph on salvation above), you'll spend it eternally connected with Him in Heaven. Hell is a place of separation, suffering and darkness. Heaven is a place of eternal joy in God's presence. Community Baptist Beliefs Will this suffice or are do you want more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 The thing is, Kir doesn't seem to understand the harshness of the religious rhetoric of 2000 years ago. The Xianity of today is often watered-down, espeically on most websites, since it's hard for humans to be as harsh and extreme as the teachings of traditional Xianity require. Still, the bulk of Xian history is riddled with such extremism, and while many Xians humanize the idea of original sin and our need for a saviour, generally it's regarded much more akin to the harshness of the Wholly Babble itself. Some people will just say that we're prone to evil and therefore need to be saved, since we don't know how to be good on our own. Usually, this is the version of the teaching I received - but it's hardly better or more accurate than the most pure interpretatation, that being that we are evil from the get go. Either or, this teaching is still very prevalent. Like it or not, Kir, it's real - and your personal spin on Xianity, however decent, in no way erases this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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