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Offending Christians


Garnet

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So I take you couldn't find anything either? Did your pastors preach that you were all evil beings, did he/she say it in those exact words? My priests never did, they would say to hate not the sinner but the sin, that we all need to repent for our actions (not for our being), theres nothing on-line that I can find that suggests one thing over another, and the bible could be interpreted in a way to support both. The simple fact that the Christians where I am from (and all of the catholics that I have asked in person...all two of them , I'll get more opinions tonight) have stated that Christianity does not teach that humans are evil. There are some out there who believe this so it is not a core belief of Christianity if some Christians have opinions that are contrary to it. I might take polls in a few christian forums...I'll let you all know what I find.

Perhaps this will help you, Kir...

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7)

 

The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth. (Genesis 8:21)

 

It seems to me, Kir, that you've never been to Fundieville. You keep coming up with RC views, and in the Fundieland I grew up in catholics were seen as idol-worshippers, bound for hell, and not even considered christians. And to answer your question, oh yes...it was preached to me every sunday that we were evil beings, deserving of hellfire from birth, and that the only remedy was pleading the shed blood of jesus to "wash away" the sin for "without the shedding of blood there is no remission". In other words, repentance isn't good enough. "Ye must be born again". The fact that humans are evil IS a core belief of fundamentalist xianity, and many of us ex-christians are ex-fundies. Look at the quotes above. To a fundy, that is literally God speaking. Don't try to parse the words, for it is a grievous sin to alter even one punctuation mark of the inerrant and infallible word of god.

 

This is the crap we learned as children. Do you still want to try and convince me and the others that such a horror-construct for living is in any way beneficial?

 

 

Yep bingo, that's part of my problem and I probably would have a greater distaste for christianity if I was among those types of crazy fundies like so many here seem to be. As a catholic I always viewed those types of christians as wayward children and that definitely stuck with me, I won't make excuses for it, it's just where I come from. I have disregarded them before, the ones that strayed farther away...some of them should probably be labeled as critically insane. It is foreign. Don't get me wrong, I always knew the other types, I just didn't know how many in number until I came here.

 

The religion still has me in that way, and I know that. Just know that my type exists as well, I obviously cannot disregard yours...but do not overlook mine.

 

I NEVER tried to convince you that your experiences with it was beneficial, but some are. All I'm asking is for you to understand that.

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Believing that you are going to be in heaven with God when you die and using that belief to make your life a little less miserable is not harmful. Drug addictions are, you cannot compare the two.

 

Um, Kir, to accept that statement I would need to accept that life on this earth is miserable. When I kicked Jesus to the curb and got rid of god, life started looking up for me. Things might work the same way for you if you ever dared try it. In other words

 

RELIGION MAKES PEOPLE MISERABLE

 

eh, I'm a pessimist in this case. The whole world is foul.

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If they've got a firm belief that they have the RIGHT to spread their beliefs around, and they do have that belief, (hell, it's something they believe their Messiah COMMANDED them to do) and if that belief is offensive, then by supporting their right to those beliefs you are indeed supporting their right to be offensive pricks.

 

Do you get it? Their belief gives them the right to be offensive... hell, it's a fucking GOD-GIVEN RIGHT!

 

Once they spread in an offensive manor then they cross the line, simple. What I said before holds true.

 

you are supporting, whether you like to admit it or not, their "right" to be offensive to others.

 

No I'm not. I won't admit because it's not the case.

 

Your mother was comforted by the belief that that she was an evil, worthless fuck-up that deserved to be tortured for all eternity??

 

I'm sorry to say but I very much doubt your mother had THAT belief in mind... all she was doing was taking comfort from a false belief. (harsh, but true)

 

You're spinning it to fit your own personal views about the religions. No, I actually questioned my mother on this (I try to limit religious conversations in order to maintain the status quo) and she said that according to Christianity humans are not evil. So obviously not every christian sees that as the case. She took comfort in the hope provided by the religion. It still helped her.

 

 

Mind if I quote Mother Teresa..? "suffering is good for the soul"

 

How about that? Something that's a fucking core belief of Catholics... and it's not gonna help that many people, is it? (one reason why so many people hate the way she worked... doing harm to "help" them after they die)

 

eh, I was never a big fan of suffering for salvation but again, this idea, this construct serves its purpose. To make a long story short, I used to play soccer in travel teams, high school, college. Training was hell but I loved it because in the end all of the suffering I went through was worth it. I was faster then most of the other players I went against. Suffering in my opinion is oftentimes an unnecessary evil, but it's not always the case. (It's a completely different discussion). I guess my point is that suffering can bring out positive ends.

 

I wouldn't want to insult you with that label...

 

In my opinion the fundamentals who stress in your face proselytizing methods are not the ones who really deserve it.

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I was challenging the claim that all Christians view humanity as evil.

 

To prove that you would need a poll I would guess. However, as Woody pointed out, it is a core teaching that humanity without christ is evil. The bible is very clear on this as are the charters of most, if not all major sects. How the pew warmers perceive this is another question. As I said, you would need a poll.

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So I take you couldn't find anything either?

 

I can find plenty. I'm just not patient enough to teach you xianity 101. What I'm saying is you are walking into a room full of experts on the subject and claiming that we just don't understand one of the core beliefs of the subject of our expertise.

 

My priests never did, they would say to hate not the sinner but the sin

 

Certainly, xianity and its teachings are riddled with contradictions. This doesn't take away from the fact that it is foundational to the belief that man is born evil and that unsaved man is evil and deserving of punishment.

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eh, I'm a pessimist in this case. The whole world is foul.

 

Sounds like you believe exactly what you are arguing against.

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Here is an excert from a websit that says how this particular Christian group views man and sanctification. I am also including a link to there website where I pulled the quotes. This same group will eventually hate the sinner and not just the sin. If the person doesn't conform to the pastors way of thinking, it's brought before the whole congregation and the congregation is actually told to treat this person as a non-christian. Friends and family will not by any means associate with you. I think the part I italicized in Sanctification shows that this particular group believes that "sin" resides within man...a synonym of sin is evil. So if evil resides within man to me that means man is evil and must constantly fight that evil within him.

 

Honestly I think if people really investigated their faith, really read what their particular denomination is about instead of getting caught up in the feel good music and the social camaraderie they may realize exactly what is wrong with religion. The true eye opener for me was when I went to switch denominations. I looked at a lot of the different denominations and dug through all of their statements of belief, I didn't take them at face value. Had I just settled on a denomination without the actual research I would have never have known because while the bad stuff is touched upon during service, it isn't expressed as fully in that 1 hour time period and not always is it preached back to back. It's subtle, very subtle and once you are hooked into the social aspects it is very hard to give it up.

 

Man - Statement of Faith

 

Man

 

God made man—male and female—in his own image, as the crown of creation, that man might have fellowship with him. Tempted by Satan, man rebelled against God. Being estranged from his Maker, yet responsible to him, he became subject to divine wrath, inwardly depraved and, apart from a special work of grace, utterly incapable of returning to God. This depravity is radical and pervasive. It extends to his mind, will, and affections. Unregenerate man lives under the dominion of sin and Satan. He is at enmity with God, hostile toward God, and hateful of God. Fallen, sinful people, whatever their character or attainments, are lost and without hope apart from salvation in Christ.

 

Sanctification

 

The Holy Spirit is the active agent in our sanctification and seeks to produce his fruit in us as our minds are renewed and we are conformed to the image of Christ. Though indwelling sin remains a reality, as we are led by the Spirit we grow in the knowledge of the Lord, freely keeping his commandments and endeavoring to so live in the world that all people may see our good works and glorify our Father who is in heaven. All believers are exhorted to persevere in the faith, knowing they will have to give an account to God for their every thought, word, and deed. The spiritual disciplines, especially Bible study, prayer, worship and confession, are a vital means of grace in this regard. Nevertheless, the believer’s ultimate confidence to persevere is based in the sure promise of God to preserve his people until the end, which is most certain.

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I NEVER tried to convince you that your experiences with it was beneficial, but some are. All I'm asking is for you to understand that.

 

 

 

Do Christians believe that people who don't take Jesus Christ as their personal savior spend eternity in hell? A simple yes or no will suffice.

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If they've got a firm belief that they have the RIGHT to spread their beliefs around, and they do have that belief, (hell, it's something they believe their Messiah COMMANDED them to do) and if that belief is offensive, then by supporting their right to those beliefs you are indeed supporting their right to be offensive pricks.

 

Do you get it? Their belief gives them the right to be offensive... hell, it's a fucking GOD-GIVEN RIGHT!

 

Once they spread in an offensive manor then they cross the line, simple. What I said before holds true.

So, rather than supporting their right to their beliefs, you actually support their right to their beliefs AS LONG AS THEY ARE NOT OFFENDING OTHERS.

 

That's LIMITING their rights, not supporting them... which is the crux of the problem. Thanks to Freedom of Speech, limiting them isn't an option. All we can do is make sure they understand that we will be offensive if they offend us, and that them moaning about it won't wash anymore.

you are supporting, whether you like to admit it or not, their "right" to be offensive to others.

 

No I'm not. I won't admit because it's not the case.

Support their right to believe the way they do, support them being offensive... since the way they believe IS offensive.

 

I take your argument now to be an admittance that you DON'T support their right after all...

Your mother was comforted by the belief that that she was an evil, worthless fuck-up that deserved to be tortured for all eternity??

 

I'm sorry to say but I very much doubt your mother had THAT belief in mind... all she was doing was taking comfort from a false belief. (harsh, but true)

 

You're spinning it to fit your own personal views about the religions. No, I actually questioned my mother on this (I try to limit religious conversations in order to maintain the status quo) and she said that according to Christianity humans are not evil. So obviously not every christian sees that as the case. She took comfort in the hope provided by the religion. It still helped her.

Yep... False Belief.

 

It amazes me that people still fall for the "slap a fresh coat of paint on something to hide the rot inside" trick... then again, some people WANT to be tricked.

Mind if I quote Mother Teresa..? "suffering is good for the soul"

 

How about that? Something that's a fucking core belief of Catholics... and it's not gonna help that many people, is it? (one reason why so many people hate the way she worked... doing harm to "help" them after they die)

 

eh, I was never a big fan of suffering for salvation but again, this idea, this construct serves its purpose. To make a long story short, I used to play soccer in travel teams, high school, college. Training was hell but I loved it because in the end all of the suffering I went through was worth it. I was faster then most of the other players I went against. Suffering in my opinion is oftentimes an unnecessary evil, but it's not always the case. (It's a completely different discussion). I guess my point is that suffering can bring out positive ends.

You have just defended the practice of refusing food and medicine to children so that they would be "good" Christians...
I wouldn't want to insult you with that label...

 

In my opinion the fundamentals who stress in your face proselytizing methods are not the ones who really deserve it.

Why not? The Bible does command them to do just that...

 

 

 

All through this, you've been using the No True Scotsman Fallacy... the only reason it's not obvious is you've been avoiding using the phrase "No True Christian" though your last statement makes it plain.

You've used many of the arguments that Christian Apologizers use, you're constantly defending Christianity... you'll have to excuse people if they mistake you for a flipping Fundie Apologizer!

 

If it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, acts like a duck... then it's no surprise if people say it's a flaming duck!

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Things in the Old Country tended to be run by people taught in Ireland... Irish Roman Catholicism, certainly in my life time, is a death cult where everyone is a black hole of fallenness in the body of Jesus, and if you don't confess every week, and shrive, you're hell bound (this is taught to five year olds...)

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About the Great Commision and Christianity. Some Christians strongly oppose mission work but they sure are dedicated religionists. The horse and buggy Mennonites are among these. I asked my deacon why we don't take that verse seriously and he said, "That was fulfilled long ago."

 

He meant that Christianity had already been preached to the ends of the earth.

 

My problem with that kind of reasoning was that it may have been preached to former generations, but what about the present generation? The faith was not kept in many places, which means today's generation doesn't know about it. I dared not say all this because I was just a young girl and he was a seasoned church leader. Besides, I was at his home to visit his daughters who were my age and good friends.

 

What I do know is that anyone who wanted to go into mission work was despised as loving the world. Mission work used such worldly equipment as air travel, telephone, and automobile. There were no churches for our kind of Mennonites in the places where mission work was being done. This being the case, anyone who did mission work would be cut off from the church and exposed to worldly equipment, including radio.

 

Let me repeat, being a Christian does not necessarily mean evangelizing.

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I can find plenty. I'm just not patient enough to teach you xianity 101. What I'm saying is you are walking into a room full of experts on the subject and claiming that we just don't understand one of the core beliefs of the subject of our expertise.

 

All I am asking is that you recognize that not all Christians view humanity as evil therefore it is not a core belief of Christianity. They may believe that humanity is inclined to do evil, but not all believe that humans in and of themselves are evil.

 

I questioned Christians on this in a Catholic forum and a general Christian one...so far 3 have similar views to mine in that humans are not basically evil, while 2 maintain views similar to most of the people in this cult, that humans are evil according to Christianity. The numbers mean nothing except that it verifies that some Christians do not believe that humans in themselves are evil.

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I NEVER tried to convince you that your experiences with it was beneficial, but some are. All I'm asking is for you to understand that.

 

 

 

Do Christians believe that people who don't take Jesus Christ as their personal savior spend eternity in hell? A simple yes or no will suffice.

 

It's not a simple yes or no. I would say that most would say yes (it's in the bible) but some would claim that there is the justice of God and no one can really judge who makes it or not...that only God would know .

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All I am asking is that you recognize that not all Christians view humanity as evil therefore it is not a core belief of Christianity. They may believe that humanity is inclined to do evil, but not all believe that humans in and of themselves are evil.

 

Just because some can't comprehend what it is their church is teaching them doesn't mean that this is not a core tennet of xian belief. In the end though, this nit picking you are doing on this topic doesn't really change a whole lot about how stupid this belief is. Since xianity defines sin in the first place, it is creating artificial reasons for humans to feel bad about their human condition. "Oh god, I looked at her and felt lust in my heart! :eek: Off to see Father Joe to get 20 hail Marys." Ever heard the term "Catholic guilt?"

 

You argue that xianity offers some hope? Here's what false hope gets people: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?show...c=17443&hl=

 

You may have been lucky enough to escape the grips of this religion, but those of us on this board who were not know what its like to suffer horrible amounts of guilt based on the false premises established by that insipid belief system. Many, if not most of those still inside are just in denile about this. Frankly, you coming in here and apologizing for this belief system to us who have bloodied our knees in effort to escape the indoctrination of our youth is like going to a synagog and trying to convince them that National Socialism was just misunderstood. You shouldn't be surprised by the reaction you are getting. In fact, you've been handled with kid gloves.

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I take your argument now to be an admittance that you DON'T support their right after all...

 

That's your mistake, not mine.

 

You have just defended the practice of refusing food and medicine to children so that they would be "good" Christians...

 

No I didn't.

 

Why not? The Bible does command them to do just that...

 

Where does the bible stress the 'in your face' sort of proselytizing?'

 

 

You've used many of the arguments that Christian Apologizers use, you're constantly defending Christianity... you'll have to excuse people if they mistake you for a flipping Fundie Apologizer!

 

If it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, acts like a duck... then it's no surprise if people say it's a flaming duck!

 

I do not have to excuse anyone for making false assumptions about me. It happens, but when I am against something I examine all reasonable possibilities...it's just how I am.

 

I HAVE to look at everything, I will not twist it around to suit my own needs and views. I've said this before...there are Christians who do not say that humans are evil. That's a fact, they are out there. Roman Catholics say this in their Catechism:

 

" Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin" (from 405)

 

The RCC is the largest denomination in the world and they teach what I have been saying all along so don't act like I'm making it up.

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Someone should tell their clergy when they're alone with children... There again, it's not uncommon for an organisation's PR to be wholly at odds with the product they sell...

 

Effectively, what you're saying (and using their sale materials to back up) is at odds with the bulk of experience of users here... but I'm sure that we're all sanguine with being called hypocrites, fools and liars...

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I take your argument now to be an admittance that you DON'T support their right after all...

 

That's your mistake, not mine.

So you DO support their right to an offensive belief... and you don't see anything wrong with them spreading that belief?

 

See, you did say that you debate about HOW they spread the word... but not about the fact that they spread the word. From that, the only conclusion is that you have no problem with them spreading an offensive belief... which mean you have no problem with them being offensive.

 

 

You contradict yourself...

You have just defended the practice of refusing food and medicine to children so that they would be "good" Christians...

 

No I didn't.

Did you or did you not state that suffering can bring out positive ends?

That is the reasoning behind what MT did... and you have just defended what she did.

Why not? The Bible does command them to do just that...

 

Where does the bible stress the 'in your face' sort of proselytizing?'

Depending on what you class as 'in your face'... which in my case includes the twerps who insist on knocking on my door early in the morning and asking "have you thought about Jesus recently?"... then simply saying that Christians should go to others homes and "spread the word" is commanding them to do just that.

 

Anything that involves pushing something at me that I really have no need for, or want, is 'in your face'... which is what the Bible commands Christians to do.

You've used many of the arguments that Christian Apologizers use, you're constantly defending Christianity... you'll have to excuse people if they mistake you for a flipping Fundie Apologizer!

 

If it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, acts like a duck... then it's no surprise if people say it's a flaming duck!

 

I do not have to excuse anyone for making false assumptions about me. It happens, but when I am against something I examine all reasonable possibilities...it's just how I am.

Right... portray a false image, and it's their fault for not seeing the real you.

 

 

Hang on... there's another group of people who do just that... now who were they again...?

 

Oh yeah... Fundie Apologizers!

I HAVE to look at everything, I will not twist it around to suit my own needs and views. I've said this before...there are Christians who do not say that humans are evil. That's a fact, they are out there. Roman Catholics say this in their Catechism:

 

" Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin" (from 405)

 

The RCC is the largest denomination in the world and they teach what I have been saying all along so don't act like I'm making it up.

I do believe someone pointed out that we're not talking about what the Christians try to teach, but what CHRISTIANITY ITSELF teaches... and that is that ALL humanity deserves eternal torture.

 

 

If you want to claim that the core belief of Christianity (not Christians... don't mix them up again) is something other than how all Humanity deserves eternal torture because we're all evil, worthless fuck-ups, then you are claiming that the Crucifixion is NOT needed to bring Salvation from eternal torture...

 

Go ahead... make the claim. Just remember that it'll leave you denying the very thing the whole religion is named after as well!

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I've said this before...there are Christians who do not say that humans are evil. That's a fact, they are out there. Roman Catholics say this in their Catechism:

 

" Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin" (from 405)

 

The RCC is the largest denomination in the world and they teach what I have been saying all along so don't act like I'm making it up.

 

You missed part of it, the part that says "....-an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle".

 

You can't discount the others in The Fall either. The message it imparts is quite clear, evil lives within man and is constantly at war between good and bad. Also look at (I believe) 403 that goes into the need to baptise infants not due to personal sin but because of original sin and without the baptism of the infant "death" due to original sin is a certainty.

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Do Christians believe that people who don't take Jesus Christ as their personal savior spend eternity in hell? A simple yes or no will suffice.

 

It's not a simple yes or no. I would say that most would say yes (it's in the bible) but some would claim that there is the justice of God and no one can really judge who makes it or not...that only God would know .

 

It is a simple answer to the question. Most Christians would give you a definitive answer to accepting Christ into your life will save you from hell. Most will defend that god sent the buybull and the church to be the messenger as to how to obtain being saved from the pits of hell.

 

Listen Kir, Like any apologist what you can't defend you sidestep or change the subject. So far you have completely dismissed information posted to you and yet again changed the subject. Say a 100 People go to a particular church and the church preaches One needs Jesus Christ to have eternal life, He is a savior of sin , those who reject this dogma will spend eternity in hell.. yada yada yada. If out of that 100; 3 don't believe necessarily what's being taught in the literal sense it doesn't change the message of the church. You're trying to sit here and tell us because the 3 don't believe it means that not all Christians are followers of what the church preaches. Oddly enough the 3 will still attend Church/Mass regardless, and still defend the cult at all costs. (Take note of yourself for example)

 

You are a masterful cherry picker. Parts of the dogma that make you uncomfortable you either deny it's existence or interpret things in an extremely liberal view. You view is not the norm of Christianity, you have a liberal view and are probably classified as a liberal Christian. I have not even seen many Christians attempt to defend their particular dogma when coming here, they attempt to try to witness about Christ but leave their particular cult at the door.

 

It seems you want to come here under the guise of not being a Christian but want to convince us all that Catholicism is the one True ™ Religion, the most loving and so forth. We are all just misunderstood lost souls and so forth.

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Sorry, double post.

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Do Christians believe that people who don't take Jesus Christ as their personal savior spend eternity in hell? A simple yes or no will suffice.

 

It's not a simple yes or no. I would say that most would say yes (it's in the bible) but some would claim that there is the justice of God and no one can really judge who makes it or not...that only God would know .

 

It is a simple answer to the question. Most Christians would give you a definitive answer to accepting Christ into your life will save you from hell. Most will defend that god sent the buybull and the church to be the messenger as to how to obtain being saved from the pits of hell.

 

Listen Kir, Like any apologist what you can't defend you sidestep or change the subject. So far you have completely dismissed information posted to you and yet again changed the subject. Say a 100 People go to a particular church and the church preaches One needs Jesus Christ to have eternal life, He is a savior of sin , those who reject this dogma will spend eternity in hell.. yada yada yada. If out of that 100; 3 don't believe necessarily what's being taught in the literal sense it doesn't change the message of the church. You're trying to sit here and tell us because the 3 don't believe it means that not all Christians are followers of what the church preaches. Oddly enough the 3 will still attend Church/Mass regardless, and still defend the cult at all costs. (Take note of yourself for example)

 

You are a masterful cherry picker. Parts of the dogma that make you uncomfortable you either deny it's existence or interpret things in an extremely liberal view. You view is not the norm of Christianity, you have a liberal view and are probably classified as a liberal Christian. I have not even seen many Christians attempt to defend their particular dogma when coming here, they attempt to try to witness about Christ but leave their particular cult at the door.

 

It seems you want to come here under the guise of not being a Christian but want to convince us all that Catholicism is the one True Religion, the most loving and so forth. We are all just misunderstood lost souls and so forth.

 

 

The Christian God does not exist. If religions contain parts of the truth and this holds true for Christianity the God described in the OT is a malevolent force and it would not bear much of a resemblance to the God that they preach about. I doubt that that makes me a Christian. I dismiss the religion for many reasons but I refuse to dismiss it and demonize it just because I had a bad experience with it. I love observing some of the traditions of Catholicism, they are beautiful and I would love to see a Latin Mass someday especially if it's in an old Cathedral but where have I ever stated that it's the most loving and so forth? Have fun finding it because I have never claimed that. If I mention it more then other Christian groups it is because I know a lot more about it then the other ones.

 

You claim that I sidestep or change topics...when have I done that give me an example. In this thread the two things that I have basically maintained is that harboring hate can be dangerous, and that saying that man is evil is not a key tenet of the faith since not all Christians hold it as true. The bible concentrates on the evil actions of man, sin...that is core to the faith, saying that man is evil is not. How many times does it teach that in the bible?

 

Genesis 1:31 "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day."

 

'and it was very good.'

 

 

There...I have given you more than enough proof to back up my claim, and no I am no apologizer I just like to actually know religions, I have no interest in twisting it around.

 

Look, if you are right and its not just your bias towards the religion that is slanting your opinion then fine I can accept that as soon as I find reason enough to believe that you are correct. I still have polls out to see if I am completely off but I have been given no good reason to believe that it is a core belief that humans are evil. I was never taught that, no one in my family was taught that they looked at my like I was insane when I asked if humans are evil and they basically said 'no, humans do evil acts but they in and of themselves are not evil'. People from other denominations have said the same thing I have. The answers are varied.

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The Christian God does not exist. If religions contain parts of the truth and this holds true for Christianity the God described in the OT is a malevolent force and it would not bear much of a resemblance to the God that they preach about.

 

Are you willingly being obtuse here? Bottom Line: The Only reason they need Jesus Christ is to wash away their sin and have eternal life... he came to do away with (uphold) the law so man no longer had to. If they choose to walk the 'wayward path' aka not with the church, they will be cast in the pits of fire for all eternity. It is the long and short of it. Just because you close your eyes and put your fingers in your ears and refuse to hear Their message doesn't mean they don't have that message. :banghead:

 

 

 

 

I doubt that that makes me a Christian. I dismiss the religion for many reasons but I refuse to dismiss it and demonize it just because I had a bad experience with it. I love observing some of the traditions of Catholicism, they are beautiful and I would love to see a Latin Mass someday especially if it's in an old Cathedral but where have I ever stated that it's the most loving and so forth? Have fun finding it because I have never claimed that. If I mention it more then other Christian groups it is because I know a lot more about it then the other ones.

It is a free country, you are free to worship or believe anything you wish. The Issues *I* have are that you come across as an apologist all the while claiming you are no such thing. I have not seen you say Jack diddly anything remotely negative about the Church. The Catholic church at that... The most you will concede is that... and I'm paraphrasing here.. *** People that you know aren't like that*** or ***** That's not what I was taught or anyone I know was taught, you all have been misinformed****

 

 

You are extremely dismissive of anyone here's claims and come across as defending actions or interpretations of the church. such as ***** I'm sure you're misreading, misunderstanding, no one's a literalist.. so on and so forth **** These come across as you're putting the blame on the victims of the cult for not seeing things the way *you* see them. So basically .. it's our fault for not having the liberal eyes to see the wonderful bullshit brainwashing you call Church. You also deny that Christian churches uses Hell as an emotional tool to win people over and manipulate them.

 

You claim that I sidestep or change topics...when have I done that give me an example. In this thread the two things that I have basically maintained is that harboring hate can be dangerous, and that saying that man is evil is not a key tenet of the faith since not all Christians hold it as true. The bible concentrates on the evil actions of man, sin...that is core to the faith, saying that man is evil is not. How many times does it teach that in the bible?

 

 

Three things off the top of my head without reading back thru the Thread.

 

* The only place you can find that any claim that man is evil is on atheists and/or anti-Christian websites.

You almost come across as antagonistic as in...' I suppose you didn't find any either' mantra when people didn't Rush and give you information that you were to lazy to do the leg work to find it yourself.

Your claim was debunked and you have still yet to apologize for painting atheists or anti-Christians in a negative light. You made an accusation, were proven wrong and moved on to the next thing with out even acknowledging you were wrong.

 

** Someone I believe it was CrazyTiger asked you to answer things about Mother Teresa. (To counter your claim that Catholics weren't like that or some such.. I forget now the exact but read thru the thread and see for yourself) You were asked a few times you ignored it and sidestepped it.

 

*** You refuse to acknowledge any harmful dogma even when it's pointed out to you using the Churches reference books. It is sidestepped as You believe it is not to be taken in the literal sense..

 

 

Genesis 1:31 "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day."

 

'and it was very good.'

 

 

There...I have given you more than enough proof to back up my claim, and no I am no apologizer I just like to actually know religions, I have no interest in twisting it around.

 

 

:Doh: Wow....... You don't think any of us here KNOW religion? Again you are a know it all and are coming here to educate us ... this right here is a glaring example of how you come across.

 

Look, if you are right and its not just your bias towards the religion that is slanting your opinion then fine I can accept that as soon as I find reason enough to believe that you are correct.

 

 

 

Again, how about doing your own freaking studies and stop relying upon us? It is clear that you are completely ignorant in even the basics beliefs of Christianity. What little you do seem to know you turn and twist more then a spring to defend it.

I still have polls out to see if I am completely off but I have been given no good reason to believe that it is a core belief that humans are evil.

 

:Doh: Who here does believe that Kir? WTF? Glad to know you make choices based on popular vote instead of actual research and information. :twitch:

 

I was never taught that, no one in my family was taught that they looked at my like I was insane when I asked if humans are evil and they basically said 'no, humans do evil acts but they in and of themselves are not evil'. People from other denominations have said the same thing I have. The answers are varied.

 

Yeah.. can I see your polling numbers ,(ages, race, country of origin et al) questioned asked and other denominations used in your study? :thanks:

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Genesis 1:31 "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day."

 

'and it was very good.'

 

 

There...I have given you more than enough proof to back up my claim, and no I am no apologizer I just like to actually know religions, I have no interest in twisting it around.

 

 

:Doh: Wow....... You don't think any of us here KNOW religion? Again you are a know it all and are coming here to educate us ... this right here is a glaring example of how you come across.

 

Oh yeah - I love that one most of all :angry:

 

Kirangel, the passage cited from Genesis was real pretty, but how about going in chronological order with the Wholly Babble? In the end of that damned book, the story is clear - humanity has fallen far from the "goodness" of the Garden, and now needs the saviour, ol' Jebus o' Nazareth. Evidently, we are not good enough - and that is proof that Xianity teaches that humanity is inherently evil and in need of saving.

 

Damn, cherry-picking at its finest - and from a "non-xian" of all people :rolleyes:

 

Yeah, coming here to educate us - hasn't lost that Xian superiority complex, either :jerkit:

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I know people are going to start breakin' my balls for bringing House of Yahweh up so much, but something comes to my notice. See, this guy, Iyyob (Jacob, obviously) fancies himself a non-christian, by a. his group's particular outlook, both on interpretation of the bible, and their reading of history, considering christianity to be a corruption of Jesus intentions, and b. because of the interpretation itself, as well as their own very unique translation.

 

In much the same way that protestants consider catholics non-christian, or all 'other' christians consider JW's and Mormons untrue christians, so does the HOY consider itself separate from christianity. So this guy was a so-called ex-christian, but, having had experience with that group, I outed him as the apologist he was.

 

Kirangel might not be christian, she doesn't have to be, but she is an apologist. Sorry, Kir, but when you say one thing, and the body of amassing evidence says otherwise, you lose your entitlement to being taken at your word. At least on that subject. :)

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Are you willingly being obtuse here? Bottom Line: The Only reason they need Jesus Christ is to wash away their sin and have eternal life... he came to do away with (uphold) the law so man no longer had to. If they choose to walk the 'wayward path' aka not with the church, they will be cast in the pits of fire for all eternity. It is the long and short of it. Just because you close your eyes and put your fingers in your ears and refuse to hear Their message doesn't mean they don't have that message. :banghead:

 

I never made any claims to the contrary of what you just stated. What message...that I'm going to hell for not believing? It doesn't bother me because their God most likely (99% certainty) does not exist.

 

It is a free country, you are free to worship or believe anything you wish. The Issues *I* have are that you come across as an apologist all the while claiming you are no such thing. I have not seen you say Jack diddly anything remotely negative about the Church. The Catholic church at that... The most you will concede is that... and I'm paraphrasing here.. *** People that you know aren't like that*** or ***** That's not what I was taught or anyone I know was taught, you all have been misinformed****

 

You did not just say in a round about way that I have to bash Christianity in order to be a real ex-Christian did you? I have stated my distaste for it already. I am not saying that you are misinformed, I do question your biases which is reasonable enough to do, you cannot fault me on that in the same way that I cannot fault you for questioning me. No, I would never make such a bold claim as you have said that I did. I only ask that you realize that your form of Christianity is not the only one out there.

 

You are extremely dismissive of anyone here's claims and come across as defending actions or interpretations of the church. such as ***** I'm sure you're misreading, misunderstanding, no one's a literalist.. so on and so forth **** These come across as you're putting the blame on the victims of the cult for not seeing things the way *you* see them. So basically .. it's our fault for not having the liberal eyes to see the wonderful bullshit brainwashing you call Church. You also deny that Christian churches uses Hell as an emotional tool to win people over and manipulate them.

 

I never denied that Christians use hell as an emotional tool to manipulate people. I should charge money for every time someone tries to put words into my mouth here, I would be a very rich person. It would be a very powerful tool, of course people would use it. I do not dismiss peoples claims I just question them. That's okay right?

 

 

Three things off the top of my head without reading back thru the Thread.

 

* The only place you can find that any claim that man is evil is on atheists and/or anti-Christian websites.

You almost come across as antagonistic as in...' I suppose you didn't find any either' mantra when people didn't Rush and give you information that you were to lazy to do the leg work to find it yourself.

Your claim was debunked and you have still yet to apologize for painting atheists or anti-Christians in a negative light. You made an accusation, were proven wrong and moved on to the next thing with out even acknowledging you were wrong.

 

My claim was not debunked, no one could provide any real evidence to the contrary, you used your experiences and I used mine, and I got some others...as soon as the site decides to load for me I'll give a link.

 

oh...and I did the work and admitted that I couldn't find anything substantive (did you even look, it's not a core belief if there is not much to be found on it), and was wondering if anyone had any better luck.

 

 

 

** Someone I believe it was CrazyTiger asked you to answer things about Mother Teresa. (To counter your claim that Catholics weren't like that or some such.. I forget now the exact but read thru the thread and see for yourself) You were asked a few times you ignored it and sidestepped it.

 

I don't remember it so if I missed it it wasn't on purpose. I've tried my best to respond to as many people as possible but I don't have the time to sit here all day and answer everything.

 

*** You refuse to acknowledge any harmful dogma even when it's pointed out to you using the Churches reference books. It is sidestepped as You believe it is not to be taken in the literal sense..

 

Like what? Obviously there is harmful dogma, I do not deny that...I never did, and I never will. Pointed out when? People point it out and oftentimes I agree with them...no one seems to acknowledge that though.

 

 

 

:Doh: Wow....... You don't think any of us here KNOW religion? Again you are a know it all and are coming here to educate us ... this right here is a glaring example of how you come across.

 

On the contrary, I think many of you must know Christianity, but only your version of it. Thanks for sidestepping my comment.

 

 

 

Again, how about doing your own freaking studies and stop relying upon us? It is clear that you are completely ignorant in even the basics beliefs of Christianity. What little you do seem to know you turn and twist more then a spring to defend it.

 

 

 

Research supports me...the Catholic church SUPPORTS what I have said... other denominations do as well but for some reason you all refuse to even acknowledge the possibility. I have researched it. I am trying to show you what actual Christians are saying... I have shown you what the bible has said, I have shown you what the catechism said. You have given me nothing. That's what a discussion is all about right? I give you proof and ask for some in return. The bible quote from genesis supports what I have said about Christianity. It's not like anything I am arguing for is a radical idea.

 

 

Yeah.. can I see your polling numbers ,(ages, race, country of origin et al) questioned asked and other denominations used in your study? :thanks:

 

I was going to list it above but the site isn't loading right now. I'll get it up as soon as it does.

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