Offending Christians

[Kirangel]

Genesis 1:31 "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day."

 

'and it was very good.'

 

 

There...I have given you more than enough proof to back up my claim, and no I am no apologizer I just like to actually know religions, I have no interest in twisting it around.

 

 

Wow....... You don't think any of us here KNOW religion? Again you are a know it all and are coming here to educate us ... this right here is a glaring example of how you come across.

 

Oh yeah - I love that one most of all :angry:

 

Kirangel, the passage cited from Genesis was real pretty, but how about going in chronological order with the Wholly Babble? In the end of that damned book, the story is clear - humanity has fallen far from the "goodness" of the Garden, and now needs the saviour, ol' Jebus o' Nazareth. Evidently, we are not good enough - and that is proof that Xianity teaches that humanity is inherently evil and in need of saving.

 

Damn, cherry-picking at its finest - and from a "non-xian" of all people

 

Yeah, coming here to educate us - hasn't lost that Xian superiority complex, either

 

We need to be redeemed because of our sins, it does not mean we are inherently evil. We were not created evil, according to Christianity. Your form of Christianity may teach that humanity is inherently evil...but not all.

[Kirangel]

Here's the link:

 

http://vampirefreaks.com/group_comment.php?entry=2009668

[Vigile]

*washing my hands of this thread*

 

Kir, you are as intellectually dishonest as any apologist we've had visit this site. You've been dismissive of every point we've made and have displayed more than one person's fair share of cognitive dissonance due to your preconceived notion that xianity is somehow misunderstood.

 

Further debate will surely be just as fruitless as the last 5-6 pages have been.

[Unknowing1]

We need to be redeemed because of our sins, it does not mean we are inherently evil. We were not created evil, according to Christianity. Your form of Christianity may teach that humanity is inherently evil...but not all.

 

As a former Catholic, I was taught that originally everything created by God was good, including man. Then came the original sin and the fall and that everyone born thereafter bears that sin which is the reason for the baptism of infants. My thesaurus lists evil as a synonym of sin. Therefore to me sin = evil. If I am born with the original sin then I am born with evil. While I can be baptised to *erase* that original sin, I still am inclined to evil, therefore I must fight those evil tendencies and when I have fallen off the right track confess my sins and seek forgiviness. That is what I was taught by the priests and nuns of the Roman Catholic Church. If that is not the message of the Catholic Church then the Vatican has some renegade priests and nuns out there and a whole hell of a lot of people who attended my church got the wrong message.

 

Now Kir I would like to see your answer to one question based on your Catholic beliefs. One reason I changed denominations was because of the Roman Catholic dogma. I married a non-catholic and was married by a minister of the United Methodist Church. Therefore under the catholic church I am living in sin. Two children have been born since I was married, neither have been baptised. However, according to the teachings I received from the Roman Catholic Church and what my Catholic mother and step mother in law said, each child is considered by the church to have been born with original sin and my sin. If one of my children die and have never committed a personal sin they will still go to Hell. If they never personally sinned why does the Catholic Church say they will go to Hell?

[Grandpa Harley]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_depravity

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_man

[crazy-tiger]

** Someone I believe it was CrazyTiger asked you to answer things about Mother Teresa. (To counter your claim that Catholics weren't like that or some such.. I forget now the exact but read thru the thread and see for yourself) You were asked a few times you ignored it and sidestepped it.

 

I don't remember it so if I missed it it wasn't on purpose. I've tried my best to respond to as many people as possible but I don't have the time to sit here all day and answer everything.

Oh, you didn't miss it at all... you DEFENDED IT! Then, when it's shown that you are defending it, you deny that you are, then ignore/conveniently miss the following post that highlights the lie.

 

 

Meanwhile, I still want an answer to something... if, as you claim, Man isn't inherently evil, why the need for the Crucifixion? Why the need to Salvation in the form of Human Sacrifice?

Why, if we aren't evil fuck-ups, are we told we are evil fuck-ups who are gonna burn for eternity unless we praise Jesus?

 

Christianity needs Humanity to be evil fuck-ups to justify the Crucifixion... because if we ain't evil fuck-ups, we don't need to accept Jesus's sacrifice to get into heaven... but Christianity teaches that we MUST accept that sacrifice to get into heaven because we are evil fuck-ups that God is going to cast into hell.

 

 

Ah... who gives a fuck anymore...? You'll either ignore what I've just said, twist what I've just said, or build yourself a strawman to answer... just like the typical Fundie Christian will do.

 

If it walks like a duck...

[Grandpa Harley]

mate of mine who is a Pastor in the US subscribes to the 'brokenness of mankind' but he also subscribes to a version of Pascal's wager which means, if someone asks about Christianity, he won't bother them with it. Nor does he try to tell you what he believes is right and you are wrong... simply because he isn't sure he's right and you're wrong... you could be right and there nothing, or maybe we're both wrong and Islam is right and we're going to the Hell of Allah...or perhaps we're all wrong and we're going to be confronted by Ahura-Mazda... more of a Roulette Wheel version of Pascal's wager than the coin flip of the original. He's of the opinion that Christianity works for him... but spirituality isn't a one size fits all deal. If one needs atheism, that's fine, Islam, fine, Jesus in one of his many forms... fine... et seq. Doesn't seem to go for converts... just 'missional' work... soup kitchens, secular counselling etc...

 

I suppose that means he's not Christian...

[Japedo]

I never made any claims to the contrary of what you just stated. What message...that I'm going to hell for not believing? It doesn't bother me because their God most likely (99% certainty) does not exist.

 

Wow Never isn't very long to you is it? Not only did you make the claims you also refuse to acknowledge the basic tenets of Christianity and then say it doesn't exist. Believing the bullshit is irrelevant to what the dogma teaches. I don't have to believe to know what they spew.

 

Humans sinning is not equivalent to humans being evil. What you are doing is taking a key tenet of Christianity and spinning it to suit your own paradigm.

 

Religion can offer hope to those who need it. It did with my mother. Roman Catholics aren't taught that humans are evil, nor are they taught that people deserve eternal damnation. They are taught that humans sin and need to repent. They make up the largest group of Christians in the world, therefore their views should not be ignored. I can't claim to know what the other denominations teach because I was never one of them, but the Christians I meet on-line have said things like, 'God is incapable of creating evil,' in that case humans were inherently good but corrupted...meaning not evil, just sinners who need to repent.

Your Quote

 

You did not just say in a round about way that I have to bash Christianity in order to be a real ex-Christian did you? I have stated my distaste for it already. I am not saying that you are misinformed, I do question your biases which is reasonable enough to do, you cannot fault me on that in the same way that I cannot fault you for questioning me. No, I would never make such a bold claim as you have said that I did. I only ask that you realize that your form of Christianity is not the only one out there.

 

 

Do I need a bouncing ball for you to follow along or what? You refuse to acknowledge any evil the church has done. You either claim we are misunderstanding, we are taking it out of context or some other bullshit. One doesn't need to "bash" to acknowledge the evils of the church. You are not a real ex-Christian, I hardly believe you were a Christian with your gross lack of understanding of the basic principles. I think your an uneducated troll if you want my opinion of things.

 

 

Another thing Miss Kettle, When have I ever only acknowledged "ONE" brand of Christianity? The only one only focusing on "ONE" Brand of Christianity in this joke of a thread is yourself..

 

 

I never denied that Christians use hell as an emotional tool to manipulate people. I should charge money for every time someone tries to put words into my mouth here, I would be a very rich person. It would be a very powerful tool, of course people would use it. I do not dismiss peoples claims I just question them. That's okay right?

 

Uhh you don't question you attempt to correct.

 

 

 

My claim was not debunked, no one could provide any real evidence to the contrary, you used your experiences and I used mine, and I got some others...as soon as the site decides to load for me I'll give a link.

 

Bullshit. Many of us posted you information using Christian websites on their doctrine. . You owe us an apology. I myself posted 3 different types of religions and their doctrine. Unknowing1 posted you information, Woodsmoke, Former Follier,Varokhar, Vigile, Grandpa Harley,Piprus, Crazy Tiger, Ruby and Evolution beyond have all given you evidence. I don't think any of us belonged to the same type of cult.

 

(ETA: Belonged as in the past tense.. )

 

 

 

oh...and I did the work and admitted that I couldn't find anything substantive (did you even look, it's not a core belief if there is not much to be found on it), and was wondering if anyone had any better luck.

 

Hey Lazy ass, why not go to the different cults themselves and look up their individual doctrine? Every one of them says... the basic fundamentals of Christianity is being saved. we are all evil unworthy sinners. Christ is the only way to heaven, Choose him and choose life, Reject him and Burn in eternal torment.

[Japedo]

I don't remember it so if I missed it it wasn't on purpose. I've tried my best to respond to as many people as possible but I don't have the time to sit here all day and answer everything.

 

Yeah... sure..

 

 

On the contrary, I think many of you must know Christianity, but only your version of it. Thanks for sidestepping my comment.

 

 

There was no sidestepping.. again... *I* don't have a sole version of Christianity... I was talking about basic fundamentals of the death/blood cult which you are completely oblivious to their existence.

 

 

 

Research supports me...the Catholic church SUPPORTS what I have said...

 

 

Hey Lazy ass... again... Unknowing1 for example has laid out basic Catholic information that you the all knowing of nothing Kir were mistaken about such as the reasons babies need to be baptized and so forth. What research... site your sources, Self conducted opinion polls on a internet forum do not constitute as research and information.

 

other denominations do as well but for some reason you all refuse to even acknowledge the possibility.

 

Such as what ones??

 

 

I have researched it.

 

Sources

I am trying to show you what actual Christians are saying...

 

Number one why? Number two... I already know what the majority of Christains say. It is you that are in complete denial of the need for faith, not us.

 

I have shown you what the bible has said,

 

We also showed you what the buybull says... what relevance is this? I'm not the one defending the faith.. You are. If you are going to use the buybull Kir and acknowledge it's relevance.. you need to take the good with the bad. This includes the talking donkeys and other bullshit stories. The book to me in fairytales and is in no sense founded in truth, You could quote peter pan and it would have the same meaning to myself. If you are going to use it as a tool to defend the cult, I'll use it to show you how the cult is lying.

 

I have shown you what the catechism said.

 

unknowing1 one showed you the flaw in your understanding... You choose to remain obtuse to the matter.

 

 

You have given me nothing.

 

I owe you nothing

[Japedo]

Yeah.. can I see your polling numbers ,(ages, race, country of origin et al) questioned asked and other denominations used in your study?

 

I was going to list it above but the site isn't loading right now. I'll get it up as soon as it does.

 

 

Here's the link:

 

http://vampirefreaks.com/group_comment.php?entry=2009668

 

 

What...... The.......... ....

 

**This** Is your source? A place called VampireFreaks? This is your source on the basic fundementals of Christainty?

 

You must be logged in to view this page

 

Hypothetical Hell will freeze over before I register to view your joke of evidence's. I'm sorry I wasn't clear to you at the forefront. When I wanted sources... I ment legitimate ones.

[Kirangel]

I do not dismiss what everyone says here. I take it all in, but you have to understand, all I’m asking you to realize is that there are many Christians out there who do not preach that humans are inherently evil. It’s not a core belief. I implore all too just consider this as a possibility.

 

I know that many of you question my intentions, and that probably makes you just disregard a lot of what I am saying, but I’m not on the side of the Christians, my only concern is with the truth…so if I see something that I do not believe is so then I have to question it. It is why I am no longer a Christian, and it is why I say that their religion brings some of them hope and peace, religion serves that function for many people. No I do not disregard the fact that it harms people, how could I honestly do that? I cannot and I will not. It can and has been a very damaging tool, as well as a very damaging philosophy.

 

I feel like we’re arguing over apples and oranges, because much of what I maintain to be true is similar to what you all do.

 

@unknowing1,

 

Very good point, it’s something that I was concerned over as well. Why does the RCC catechism teach that humanity is not inherently evil and yet maintain that we are all born with original sin, sin being an action contrary to the will of God? You are born with sin according to Catholicism and yes Baptism is used to wash it away. Being in sin however does not make someone evil (capable of doing evil acts…yes), but it does not make the whole individual an inherently evil being. You are concentrating on the bad, Catholicism also teaches that humans are capable of good, so if they are born tainted with sin and capable of good, then they are not born inherently evil. Were you taught contrary to this in the religion? It’s how the Catholics view things, the catechism does not support the idea of humans being inherently evil and Roman Catholicism is the largest group of Christians in the world. I highly doubt that they are alone in this.

 

 

Japedo, I’m not the one ignoring other Christian denominations, I have said time and again that I recognize that some of them teach that humanity is inherently evil but I will not say that they all do, because they don’t. All I’ve been trying to do is to get someone to admit, to realize this. I use Catholics because I know their dogma the most.

 

Someone asked to see the polls, I don’t remember if it was you, but it shows what some Christians themselves say, and I have provided the part of the catechism that touches on this subject and it says nothing of humanity being evil in fact it says this: “but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it” If they taught that human nature was evil then why do they say it has not been totally corrupted? I have given you evidence from the religion, and I tried to get individual Christian opinions, as for VF, it’s a good site, the Christian group in it has people from many different denominations that’s why I questioned them there, because it would cover more then just one group. Too bad no one can see it though; I didn’t know that you had to join in order to view it.

[Piprus]

Once again, Kir, you concentrate on the RCC, which many of us ex-fundies were taught from childhood to regard as apostate. To many of us former SBs, the RCC is the Whore of Babylon in the Book of Revelation. Here is another lesson in Fundieism for you:

Very good point, it’s something that I was concerned over as well. Why does the RCC catechism teach that humanity is not inherently evil and yet maintain that we are all born with original sin, sin being an action contrary to the will of God? Because the RCC is apostate, and has fallen away from the word of god.You are born with sin according to Catholicism and yes Baptism is used to wash it away.Wrong. Baptism is a gesture, it does not wash away sin. Only by inviting jesus into your heart is sin expunged. Baptism by immersion only, not sprinkling, is a profession of belief, not proof of redemption. Being in sin however does not make someone evil (capable of doing evil acts…yes), but it does not make the whole individual an inherently evil being. Wrong again. Humans are evil from birth, as the bible teaches. You are concentrating on the bad, Catholicism also teaches that humans are capable of good, so if they are born tainted with sin and capable of good, then they are not born inherently evil. Wrong. "Your deeds are as filthy rags" saith the lord.Were you taught contrary to this in the religion? Yes. Absolutely.It’s how the Catholics view things, the catechism does not support the idea of humans being inherently evil and Roman Catholicism is the largest group of Christians in the world. I highly doubt that they are alone in this.It doesn't matter how big the group is, but how the lord will judge them on that great and terrible day.

Actually, Kir, this is quite an amusing thread, as I see it. You are very ignorant of the fundamentals of xianity. I hope you've learned something here. This is the POV of those who are mounting an all-out attempt to impose dark age fundamentalist xianity on the social fabric of this country. And they are scary people. They are the taliban of the U.S.

 

So I will say it again. Xianity, whether in its fundie form or in the touchy-feely watered down counterfeit version you're so intent on defending, is malevolent.

[Kirangel]

Once again, Kir, you concentrate on the RCC, which many of us ex-fundies were taught from childhood to regard as apostate. To many of us former SBs, the RCC is the Whore of Babylon in the Book of Revelation. Here is another lesson in Fundieism for you:

Very good point, it’s something that I was concerned over as well. Why does the RCC catechism teach that humanity is not inherently evil and yet maintain that we are all born with original sin, sin being an action contrary to the will of God? Because the RCC is apostate, and has fallen away from the word of god.You are born with sin according to Catholicism and yes Baptism is used to wash it away.Wrong. Baptism is a gesture, it does not wash away sin. Only by inviting jesus into your heart is sin expunged. Baptism by immersion only, not sprinkling, is a profession of belief, not proof of redemption. Being in sin however does not make someone evil (capable of doing evil acts…yes), but it does not make the whole individual an inherently evil being. Wrong again. Humans are evil from birth, as the bible teaches. You are concentrating on the bad, Catholicism also teaches that humans are capable of good, so if they are born tainted with sin and capable of good, then they are not born inherently evil. Wrong. "Your deeds are as filthy rags" saith the lord.Were you taught contrary to this in the religion? Yes. Absolutely.It’s how the Catholics view things, the catechism does not support the idea of humans being inherently evil and Roman Catholicism is the largest group of Christians in the world. I highly doubt that they are alone in this.It doesn't matter how big the group is, but how the lord will judge them on that great and terrible day.

Actually, Kir, this is quite an amusing thread, as I see it. You are very ignorant of the fundamentals of xianity. I hope you've learned something here. This is the POV of those who are mounting an all-out attempt to impose dark age fundamentalist xianity on the social fabric of this country. And they are scary people. They are the taliban of the U.S.

 

So I will say it again. Xianity, whether in its fundie form or in the touchy-feely watered down counterfeit version you're so intent on defending, is malevolent.

 

You miss my point, I'm not trying to defend them but I am trying to understand. This isn't about the fundies, its about Christianity and what the core beliefs of it are. I don't care if you used to believe that Catholicism was apostate, it doesn't matter because you are no longer Christian and from an outsiders perspective catholics are Christians they believe in the trinity. What I'm trying to get across is simple enough, a certain sect of Christianity doesn't believe that humanity is inherently evil and it's not just a random small part of Christianity it's the largest group of Christianity. That's what I've been debating but for some reason many people try to turn it into something it's not. Where did I say that Christianity was benevolent? You can find good and bad in most anything.

[Ouroboros]

I do not dismiss what everyone says here. I take it all in, but you have to understand, all I’m asking you to realize is that there are many Christians out there who do not preach that humans are inherently evil. It’s not a core belief. I implore all too just consider this as a possibility.

That's very true. And not all Nazi soldiers under Hitler killed Jews, but it doesn't make Nazi ideology anything more palatable. If the core of a teaching has fundamental flaws that will eventually lead to destructive acts of the followers, then these teachings are not good and should be avoided. Remember, if you find anything good in the Bible, you can find the same ideas or sometimes even better in other religions or even in just straight philosophical ideologies. For instance the "do to others what yo want them do to you" is *not* a perfect rule. The rule "do not to others, what you don't want them do to you" is actually a tad better, but is based on pure philosophical thought. Christianity does not have a good track record in history, and neither does any other monotheism, since all of them got this fundamental idea that it requires people to change religion and faith to be "saved" and avoid "eternal punishment". Religions that approve and accept everyone for whatever they are or what they believe are less destructive.

 

When it comes to a Christian view if people are inherently evil or not, I think you have overlooked the teachings of the major author of the New Testament. St. Paul considered all humans, even himself, to be inherently sinful and act evil. If you meet Christians that do *not* believe this, they probably belong to a very watered down and liberal version of Christians that would be considered heretic by the fundamentalists.

[Ouroboros]

You miss my point, I'm not trying to defend them but I am trying to understand. This isn't about the fundies, its about Christianity and what the core beliefs of it are. I don't care if you used to believe that Catholicism was apostate, it doesn't matter because you are no longer Christian and from an outsiders perspective catholics are Christians they believe in the trinity. What I'm trying to get across is simple enough, a certain sect of Christianity doesn't believe that humanity is inherently evil and it's not just a random small part of Christianity it's the largest group of Christianity. That's what I've been debating but for some reason many people try to turn it into something it's not. Where did I say that Christianity was benevolent? You can find good and bad in most anything.

Okay. Fair enough. It's very true, some universalist version of Christianity even believe that you don't need to believe in Jesus and such to go to Heaven. There are groups that don't believe in Hell. And these variants might exist in Islam too. The question is, if just one person is good in an all bad religion, does it make the religion acceptable and that person gets a free pass from criticism? I don't think so. If the ideology is dangerous, it doesn't matter if one or more nice people happens to be part of that group.

[Piprus]

More lessons from fundyland:

 

You miss my point, I'm not trying to defend them but I am trying to understand. This isn't about the fundies, its about Christianity and what the core beliefs of it are.And you have been told what its core beliefs are. Do you still not understand? I don't care if you used to believe that Catholicism was apostate, it doesn't matter because you are no longer Christian and from an outsiders perspective catholics are Christians they believe in the trinity.That is not what makes a christian. Believing in the trinity is not enough. "Believe in the lord jesus christ and thou shalt be saved." What I'm trying to get across is simple enough, a certain sect of Christianity doesn't believe that humanity is inherently evil and it's not just a random small part of Christianity it's the largest group of Christianity.And I will tell you again, numbers is not what matters. "Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will be saved." "Straight is the path, and narrow is the way, and few there be that find it." That's what I've been debating but for some reason many people try to turn it into something it's not.No, you've been trying to show that humans are not inherently evil, and that is contrary to scripture. You are therefore a blasphemer. Where did I say that Christianity was benevolent? You are forgetting your own posts.You can find good and bad in most anything.Doesn't matter, if your name ain't written in the lamb's book of life.

Honestly Kir, you are real fundie-fodder. If you'd walk in to a good ol-fashion'd revival service, you'd either be crawlin' to the alter on your knees, or flyin' out the back door.

[Kirangel]

More lessons from fundyland:

 

You miss my point, I'm not trying to defend them but I am trying to understand. This isn't about the fundies, its about Christianity and what the core beliefs of it are.And you have been told what its core beliefs are. Do you still not understand? I don't care if you used to believe that Catholicism was apostate, it doesn't matter because you are no longer Christian and from an outsiders perspective catholics are Christians they believe in the trinity.That is not what makes a christian. Believing in the trinity is not enough. "Believe in the lord jesus christ and thou shalt be saved." What I'm trying to get across is simple enough, a certain sect of Christianity doesn't believe that humanity is inherently evil and it's not just a random small part of Christianity it's the largest group of Christianity.And I will tell you again, numbers is not what matters. "Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will be saved." "Straight is the path, and narrow is the way, and few there be that find it." That's what I've been debating but for some reason many people try to turn it into something it's not.No, you've been trying to show that humans are not inherently evil, and that is contrary to scripture. You are therefore a blasphemer. Where did I say that Christianity was benevolent? You are forgetting your own posts.You can find good and bad in most anything.Doesn't matter, if your name ain't written in the lamb's book of life.

Honestly Kir, you are real fundie-fodder. If you'd walk in to a good ol-fashion'd revival service, you'd either be crawlin' to the alter on your knees, or flyin' out the back door.

 

You're being obnoxious, thank you for skirting the main point I really appreciate it.

[Piprus]

And now I don't understand. Obnoxious How? All I'm doing is responding to your statements with bible quotes, which is exactly what you would get from a fundamentalist. You yourself alluded that you had not much exposure to that form of xianity, which is the "true" christianity because it's derived exactly from the bible, the very word of the deity. Not some worldly body of vatican scribblers. (Fundie POV)

 

I am not meaning to offend you, Kir. Rather, to educate you, and show you xianity's real face, without the pancake, rouge and lipstick.

[Kirangel]

And now I don't understand. Obnoxious How? All I'm doing is responding to your statements with bible quotes, which is exactly what you would get from a fundamentalist. You yourself alluded that you had not much exposure to that form of xianity, which is the "true" christianity because it's derived exactly from the bible, the very word of the deity. Not some worldly body of vatican scribblers. (Fundie POV)

 

I am not meaning to offend you, Kir. Rather, to educate you, and show you xianity's real face, without the pancake, rouge and lipstick.

 

Fundies are not the only Christians in the world, it's not true Christianity just another version of it. I thought I was discussing this with an ex-Christian I do not need to hear a fundies response. Obnoxious in that your fundie rhetoric is completely irrelevant. A very large sect of Christianity does not believe that humanity is inherently evil, others Christians believe the same, why people dismiss this is beyond me. People get frustrated with me for trying to limit the roll of fundies on Christianity, but many seem to blatantly ignore what other denominations teach. Or do you not consider Catholics to be Christians?

[Japedo]

Someone asked to see the polls, I don’t remember if it was you, but it shows what some Christians themselves say, and I have provided the part of the catechism that touches on this subject and it says nothing of humanity being evil in fact it says this: “but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it” If they taught that human nature was evil then why do they say it has not been totally corrupted? I have given you evidence from the religion, and I tried to get individual Christian opinions, as for VF, it’s a good site, the Christian group in it has people from many different denominations that’s why I questioned them there, because it would cover more then just one group. Too bad no one can see it though; I didn’t know that you had to join in order to view it.

 

Yes it was me who asked. I guess I was expecting you to cite an actual Christian site to uphold your claims. I honestly sat here and laughed and have been laughing all day at the thought of some Vampire site being referenced when we're talking about Christianity dogma stats and figures. You wont understand the humor and I don't feel like explaining.. I'm sure many here will see it though. I guess we are on completely two different playing fields here Kir. You are misunderstanding the differences between what the basic dogma teaches and who believes what parts of the dogma.. You assume they mean the same thing. They don't and I can't bend my mind enough for you to get you to comprehend where I'm coming from. None of us ever stated that everyone that attends the church believes 100% what they say... everyone draws their own conclusions of what they get out of particular sermons and what not. That part all of us get... You keep intertwining that with the basic building blocks of the faith and it is a no fly.

 

The rest of us are having one conversation (the fundamentals of basic Christianity) and you're having your own it seems (not everyone believes in the fundamentals.. or whatever it is you're trying to say). I'm bailing on this thread.... Not because I don't love a good debate, but because I'm not going to try to explain in my foreign tongue the American tax system to someone who can only understand Japanese. It is redundant and pointless... and this is how it is talking/typing to you on this thread.

[Lycorth]

We need to be redeemed because of our sins, it does not mean we are inherently evil. We were not created evil, according to Christianity. Your form of Christianity may teach that humanity is inherently evil...but not all.

 

Yes it does mean that we're inherently evil; Xianity teaches that among those hell-worthy sins is that someone who has never heard of Jebus is guilty of unbelief. The Babble makes no bones about it, nor provides any loopholes for how the innocently ignorant can be excused from torment, for the "crime" of unbelief.

 

My form of Xianity? I'm not a Xian - duh. But if you meant the form I was raised with or last professed, it was both Roman Catholicism and nondenominational evangelicalism. And the Catholics just did away with limbo, so there goes their loophole (which has no Babblical evidence for it, anyway - not that it matters).

 

*washing my hands of this thread*

 

Kir, you are as intellectually dishonest as any apologist we've had visit this site. You've been dismissive of every point we've made and have displayed more than one person's fair share of cognitive dissonance due to your preconceived notion that xianity is somehow misunderstood.

 

Further debate will surely be just as fruitless as the last 5-6 pages have been.

 

I cannot agree more :thanks:

 

Kir, you have no interest in learning or trying to understand anything. If you did, you'd alter your opinions based on the irrefutable evidence everyone here has provided. The only good thing that will come of this thread is that passers-by will read it, will see the proof of Xianity's insidious teaching regarding the inherent evilness of all humans, and will also see your utter inability to prove different - and will walk away, convinced as we are of the wickedness of Xianity.

 

It's sad that we have not been able to enlighten you, but then again, only a Xian apologist can enlighten herself - we've lead you to water but only you can drink.

 

May humanity quickly evolve away from such ignorance as yours.

[Piprus]

And now I don't understand. Obnoxious How? All I'm doing is responding to your statements with bible quotes, which is exactly what you would get from a fundamentalist. You yourself alluded that you had not much exposure to that form of xianity, which is the "true" christianity because it's derived exactly from the bible, the very word of the deity. Not some worldly body of vatican scribblers. (Fundie POV)

 

I am not meaning to offend you, Kir. Rather, to educate you, and show you xianity's real face, without the pancake, rouge and lipstick.

 

Fundies are not the only Christians in the world, it's not true Christianity just another version of it. I thought I was discussing this with an ex-Christian I do not need to hear a fundies response. Obnoxious in that your fundie rhetoric is completely irrelevant. A very large sect of Christianity does not believe that humanity is inherently evil, others Christians believe the same, why people dismiss this is beyond me. People get frustrated with me for trying to limit the roll of fundies on Christianity, but many seem to blatantly ignore what other denominations teach. Or do you not consider Catholics to be Christians?

I was just playing the fundie-advocate there, Kir. I'm an ex-fundie, ex-christian atheist, so I don't even have a personal belief. It seemed to me you were looking for debate and discussion, so I gave you the full court press in spades. And again, I'll tell you, if you tried to make the points you did in fundieville, that is what you would get. It would be signed, "Believe me, and if you don't you'll go to hell!"

 

In the real world it doesn't make a pinch of snuff to me if catholics think they're christians, pope-foot-lickers, or anything else. From my perspective, it all ends up the same way. Dead. My caution is: Don't discount the power of the fundies. They've got money, they've got organization, and they've got a mission. And they can burn the world, in the very same way as the islamo-radicals are trying to do. These religions are NOT kind, and they DON'T value human life, despite what they say. The catholics you seem to honor...SEEM to honor...were once the evangelizers who strangled bewildered South American natives, men, women, and children, who didn't instantly embrace their religion upon presentation. That is one reason why Latin America to this day is a catholic bastion.

 

Christianity, in all its forms; catholic, fundamentalist, new-age, revisionist, legalist, literalist, premillenial, postmillenial, is malevolent. It is built on a false, anti-humanist premise. I don't care about how good it makes some people feel about life. That doesn't make it good in itself.

[Kirangel]

Someone asked to see the polls, I don’t remember if it was you, but it shows what some Christians themselves say, and I have provided the part of the catechism that touches on this subject and it says nothing of humanity being evil in fact it says this: “but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it” If they taught that human nature was evil then why do they say it has not been totally corrupted? I have given you evidence from the religion, and I tried to get individual Christian opinions, as for VF, it’s a good site, the Christian group in it has people from many different denominations that’s why I questioned them there, because it would cover more then just one group. Too bad no one can see it though; I didn’t know that you had to join in order to view it.

 

Yes it was me who asked. I guess I was expecting you to cite an actual Christian site to uphold your claims. I honestly sat here and laughed and have been laughing all day at the thought of some Vampire site being referenced when we're talking about Christianity dogma stats and figures. You wont understand the humor and I don't feel like explaining.. I'm sure many here will see it though. I guess we are on completely two different playing fields here Kir. You are misunderstanding the differences between what the basic dogma teaches and who believes what parts of the dogma.. You assume they mean the same thing. They don't and I can't bend my mind enough for you to get you to comprehend where I'm coming from. None of us ever stated that everyone that attends the church believes 100% what they say... everyone draws their own conclusions of what they get out of particular sermons and what not. That part all of us get... You keep intertwining that with the basic building blocks of the faith and it is a no fly.

 

The rest of us are having one conversation (the fundamentals of basic Christianity) and you're having your own it seems (not everyone believes in the fundamentals.. or whatever it is you're trying to say). I'm bailing on this thread.... Not because I don't love a good debate, but because I'm not going to try to explain in my foreign tongue the American tax system to someone who can only understand Japanese. It is redundant and pointless... and this is how it is talking/typing to you on this thread.

 

You completely missed my point.

[Kirangel]

We need to be redeemed because of our sins, it does not mean we are inherently evil. We were not created evil, according to Christianity. Your form of Christianity may teach that humanity is inherently evil...but not all.

 

Yes it does mean that we're inherently evil; Xianity teaches that among those hell-worthy sins is that someone who has never heard of Jebus is guilty of unbelief. The Babble makes no bones about it, nor provides any loopholes for how the innocently ignorant can be excused from torment, for the "crime" of unbelief.

 

My form of Xianity? I'm not a Xian - duh. But if you meant the form I was raised with or last professed, it was both Roman Catholicism and nondenominational evangelicalism. And the Catholics just did away with limbo, so there goes their loophole (which has no Babblical evidence for it, anyway - not that it matters).

 

*washing my hands of this thread*

 

Kir, you are as intellectually dishonest as any apologist we've had visit this site. You've been dismissive of every point we've made and have displayed more than one person's fair share of cognitive dissonance due to your preconceived notion that xianity is somehow misunderstood.

 

Further debate will surely be just as fruitless as the last 5-6 pages have been.

 

I cannot agree more :thanks:

 

Kir, you have no interest in learning or trying to understand anything. If you did, you'd alter your opinions based on the irrefutable evidence everyone here has provided. The only good thing that will come of this thread is that passers-by will read it, will see the proof of Xianity's insidious teaching regarding the inherent evilness of all humans, and will also see your utter inability to prove different - and will walk away, convinced as we are of the wickedness of Xianity.

 

It's sad that we have not been able to enlighten you, but then again, only a Xian apologist can enlighten herself - we've lead you to water but only you can drink.

 

May humanity quickly evolve away from such ignorance as yours.

 

I have given you evidence of at least one very large Christian sect that teaches contrary to what you are saying, but maybe you still have some fundamental ideas entrenched in you, I recognize that some teach that humanity is inherently evil, but WHY can't you take your tinted glasses off and realize that your fundies are not the only ones out there.

[Kirangel]

And now I don't understand. Obnoxious How? All I'm doing is responding to your statements with bible quotes, which is exactly what you would get from a fundamentalist. You yourself alluded that you had not much exposure to that form of xianity, which is the "true" christianity because it's derived exactly from the bible, the very word of the deity. Not some worldly body of vatican scribblers. (Fundie POV)

 

I am not meaning to offend you, Kir. Rather, to educate you, and show you xianity's real face, without the pancake, rouge and lipstick.

 

Fundies are not the only Christians in the world, it's not true Christianity just another version of it. I thought I was discussing this with an ex-Christian I do not need to hear a fundies response. Obnoxious in that your fundie rhetoric is completely irrelevant. A very large sect of Christianity does not believe that humanity is inherently evil, others Christians believe the same, why people dismiss this is beyond me. People get frustrated with me for trying to limit the roll of fundies on Christianity, but many seem to blatantly ignore what other denominations teach. Or do you not consider Catholics to be Christians?

I was just playing the fundie-advocate there, Kir. I'm an ex-fundie, ex-christian atheist, so I don't even have a personal belief. It seemed to me you were looking for debate and discussion, so I gave you the full court press in spades. And again, I'll tell you, if you tried to make the points you did in fundieville, that is what you would get. It would be signed, "Believe me, and if you don't you'll go to hell!"

 

In the real world it doesn't make a pinch of snuff to me if catholics think they're christians, pope-foot-lickers, or anything else. From my perspective, it all ends up the same way. Dead. My caution is: Don't discount the power of the fundies. They've got money, they've got organization, and they've got a mission. And they can burn the world, in the very same way as the islamo-radicals are trying to do. These religions are NOT kind, and they DON'T value human life, despite what they say. The catholics you seem to honor...SEEM to honor...were once the evangelizers who strangled bewildered South American natives, men, women, and children, who didn't instantly embrace their religion upon presentation. That is one reason why Latin America to this day is a catholic bastion.

 

Christianity, in all its forms; catholic, fundamentalist, new-age, revisionist, legalist, literalist, premillenial, postmillenial, is malevolent. It is built on a false, anti-humanist premise. I don't care about how good it makes some people feel about life. That doesn't make it good in itself.

 

Yeah, they are dangerous and it's frustrating as hell to know that such a large number of them are out there influencing my country.

 

All I wanted was for someone to admit that a large number of Christians do not see humans as inherently evil. I mean, the largest group in Christianity teaches that we are not inherently evil. Very simple, it's very easy to figure out what Catholics main beliefs are since they are written down in the catechism. The only way you could deny this is if you denied that the catholics are Christians, and by doing that means that the fundie Christian influence still rests inside you and affects your views on other denominations.