Guest Christianity? Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 I am currently a Christian although for the last few years I have bordered on agnosticism. I will happily leave my faith if I am presented with one or more solid reasons why I should. Logically, morally,scientifically, rationally or otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 You go first, give us one valid logical, rational, moral, or scientific reason you should believe the xian claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 I am currently a Christian although for the last few years I have bordered on agnosticism. I will happily leave my faith if I am presented with one or more solid reasons why I should. Logically, morally,scientifically, rationally or otherwise. Welcome to Ex-C! It takes some seeking on your own and arriving at your own conclusions to arrive at lack of belief. The most convincing argument I can give that Christianity is BS is... Read and question the bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosingMyReligion Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 Reading the Bible in it's entirety deprogrammed me. Ironically, the most devout Christians never do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 I am currently a Christian although for the last few years I have bordered on agnosticism. I will happily leave my faith if I am presented with one or more solid reasons why I should. Logically, morally,scientifically, rationally or otherwise. Why should I give you any reasons to leave your faith? I don't even see how this would be possible. Now, if there is a particular topic, or topics, that you'd like to discuss that might have some bearing on your "faith" then by all means post them but I cannot give you any reasons that you cannot discover on your own. You sound very "troll-ish" to me at this point but maybe you'll show me to be wrong. I hope so. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 I am currently a Christian although for the last few years I have bordered on agnosticism. I will happily leave my faith if I am presented with one or more solid reasons why I should. Logically, morally,scientifically, rationally or otherwise. Each of us have left the faith for different reasons. However, we did the hard work of deprogramming ourselves and didn't have anyone just hand it to us, which seems to be what you are asking. We don't have a lot of tolerance for people who are intellectually lazy and rely on others for their information, which is what Christianity does. If you want intellectually lazy then go to church or visit a Christian site where they would be more than happy to tell you how to think and what opinoins to have. You will not find that here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Follier Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 Biting reply, Taph, and every word of it true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Follier Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 I am currently a Christian although for the last few years I have bordered on agnosticism. I will happily leave my faith if I am presented with one or more solid reasons why I should. Logically, morally,scientifically, rationally or otherwise. As MWC pointed out, your first post sounds very "troll-ish" in that you didn't necessarily introduce yourself, explain your background or any of the other more usual ways that people ease themselves into a new community. I won't completely discount your plea because it may come from a genuine feeling of frustration. I have been there so I believe I could relate if that is genuinely where you currently are. How about this? How about starting over... forget your first post and try something more along the lines of, "I'm a nominal Christian but feel I am losing my faith because..." or "My name is ****** and I am a member of ********* denomination. They teach such-and-such but I am starting to question it. Can anyone recommend any resources or have any personal experience?" As everyone else has mentioned, we aren't necessarily here to readily supply you with answers. We offer mental and emotional support (both are often needed upon deconversion), opinions, personal experiences that might relate to your own, reference material, etc. If we were to tell you what to think then Dave might as well change the name of this site to Church of Ex-Christians.net. At least that way he would have a more favorable tax position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 Great reply, Former Follier. That gives this person a fair chance while also laying out the parameters. As near as I can tell, people leave because they cannot reconcile the theology with their personal convictions. But I have yet to see two people who have the exact same problem with the exact same point of theology. Christian?, I'm looking at the title. You seem to be asking if there are any intelligent atheist you can talk to. You decide what counts as intelligent to you. Find a conversation you feel comfortable with. Post a response. Get a feel for the place. There are more "atheist" groups in the world than you can count. This may or may not be the right one for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 I am currently a Christian although for the last few years I have bordered on agnosticism. I will happily leave my faith if I am presented with one or more solid reasons why I should. Logically, morally,scientifically, rationally or otherwise. Do you need to leave your faith? Frankly, maybe yes, maybe no. The claim "I'm a christian" really means almost nothing. There are christians who almost literally live for "love your neighbor" and "judge not". I may not agree with the doctrine of their faith, but I do respect them and I won't demand that they change. There are also christians a la freddie "gawd hates fags" phelps. I trust you can imagine what I think of that one. If you're one of the "former kind", I say go ahead. We do disagree on some things, but this is what makes life interesting. If you're one of the "latter kind" of course... well... you know what I mean, don't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolution_beyond Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 I am currently a Christian although for the last few years I have bordered on agnosticism. I will happily leave my faith if I am presented with one or more solid reasons why I should. Logically, morally,scientifically, rationally or otherwise. The bible says that homosexual activities are wrong. As far as I can see such activities don't do anyone any harm, can be an expression of love every bit as valid as that between a man and a woman, and many of the people who perform such activities cannot get sexual and romantic satisfaction from the opposite sex because they honestly prefer the same sex. This is a wrong form of morality and it is intolerant towards a group of people who cannot help being the way that they are. So there is one very good moral reason. A logical reason. The christian faith makes no logical sense. God gave human beings free will and then when they make mistakes and do wrongful things he decides that they cannot be with him when they die so they have to suffer in hell instead. Then at some point in history God decides that he wants to forgive people. So does he simply relax his standards (which were pretty unfairly tough to begin with)? No he decides that somone will have to pay for the sin, so he comes down as a human being to die for our sins (even though hell is what the penalty is supposed to be, not death). Only then can he let himself forgive us (who is forcing his hand on this? why does he make the rules and then hold himself to them? It's crazy!). And even then he doesn't forgive everyone. You have to come to him and ask forgiveness - and most importantly of all - you have to believe that he did this thing that makes absolutely no sense. That is an insane God that doesn't make any sense. Also, the idea of God being born as a human being makes no sense either. How can the infinite become something finite without also losing its infinity and so not being God anymore? So either something truly illogical has happened (an infinite being that is somehow finite as well) or else Jesus wasn't God anyway. By the way, there is a difference between something being illogical and something merely being impossible. It is the difference between somebody suddenly sprouting wings and flying away and somebody making a square triangle. The first thing is merely impossible and presumably an omnipotent being could theoretically do that if it chose. But a square triangle just doesn't make sense. Even an omnipotent being couldn't make a square triangle because it isn't really a matter of what is possible or not but whether the concept even makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolution_beyond Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 I also thought that maybe this is a troll-ish christian who wants a fight. But maybe it is someone who is genuinely looking for answers because they are at that turning point. Either way I like the chance to put across my key reasons for disbelieving in christianity. If the post is genuine then it may be of some use to them. If not, then I enjoy a good argument I can sink my teeth into anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 I am currently a Christian although for the last few years I have bordered on agnosticism. I will happily leave my faith if I am presented with one or more solid reasons why I should. Logically, morally,scientifically, rationally or otherwise. Solid reason number one: Does it work for you? Yes or no? Are you growing, or are you stagnated by it, or even find it hindering you? That's the question that will answer for you whether or not it's something leave or stay in. That's the real reason why anyone either stays or leaves Christianity, or any religion or philosophy for that matter. I can't stress that enough. I can only tell you why for myself I felt it didn't work for me, and if it means something to you, then great, I'm glad my experience is helpful to you. I left because it failed to satisfy my own intellectual curiosity. I found its apologetics and attitudes towards science and culture outside itself to be arrogant and intellectually indefensible. This hindered my personality both intellectually and emotionally from finding the value and meaning in life for me that I feel compelled towards. In short, it didn't work as a system. It may work for some who don't require what I do. If those things aren't important to you and don't have a negative effect on you in them being part of that system, then maybe it satisfies you? But the fact that you said you have bordered on de-conversion for several years and would happily leave if you had a reason to, sounds to me like something isn't working very well for you in it. May I ask why might that be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 I am currently a Christian although for the last few years I have bordered on agnosticism. I will happily leave my faith if I am presented with one or more solid reasons why I should. Logically, morally,scientifically, rationally or otherwise. Well, honestly I don't care what you think or believe, as long as I give you the right to believe whatever you want, then I hope you will give me the same right. When it comes to evidence against your faith, I think that's a bit difficult since the "God of the gaps" can always be used in every argument. Even if I knew everything there is to know in the universe and I gave you that information, you could still claim that there is something that I don't know and I wouldn't be able to prove to you that what I know is everything there is to know. How does one know if there is a lack of knowledge in some area? How does one know if he doesn't know something? So in the end, there's no evidence that pixies causes the effects that we call graviational force, but I can still claim it regardless if you manage to present the science and evidence for quantum gravity. It come all down to this: there is no solid evidence for God, or for Jesus, or for miracles, or for the Bible being a book inspired by a ghost, so there's no need to believe in things we can't see, can't comprehend, can't prove (actually not even allowed to prove), can't find evidence for etc. The evidence for the invisible pink unicorn is just as compelling as the evidence for your faith, or for Allah, or for the Jews Jahweh, or for any other religion out there. You would have to come up with some other reason to why your particular religion is true and the others aren't, but your evidence would be just as fragile as what the other religions present as evidence. In the end, no one got it right. If you want a good evidence, read the Bible, literally, with an honest and open mind, and read it as you would read a book from another religion and don't make any excuses for what the Bible say or when you see contradictions. Just read it like a book, and you might see that your own holy book debunks your religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 I am currently a Christian although for the last few years I have bordered on agnosticism. I will happily leave my faith if I am presented with one or more solid reasons why I should. Logically, morally,scientifically, rationally or otherwise. "Rational"? How about virgin births, talking donkeys, talking snakes, flying horses, angels, demons, devils, sticks turning into snakes, whores riding around on seven headed dragons, zombies, ghosts, space travel to heaven, etc. etc. etc. Which of these absurdities did you think were rational enough for you to remain a Christian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Follier Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 Ever the voice of reason, Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Ever the voice of reason, Mike. Er, but wait..... I really do find all of those things rational! Seriously! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poonis Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 I am currently a Christian although for the last few years I have bordered on agnosticism. I will happily leave my faith if I am presented with one or more solid reasons why I should. Logically, morally,scientifically, rationally or otherwise. I prefer you stay a christian because hell is packed already as it is. Land down there will come at a premium by the time I die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soor Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 I will happily leave my faith if I am presented with one or more solid reasons why I should. Logically, rationally The only logical and rational reason you will ever need.......Has God ever shown himself to you that you knew it was him?? This site is full of ExChristians..ex pastors, exministers, very devout God fearing exChristians. some well scholared in the bible and church history. God never spoke to them while they served him and gave their life to serving him, me included. Don't you think the freaking least God could have done is not give prosperity or fame or health or even well being, but what about just freaking telling us after years of faithful service and sacrifice..how but just " hey bud I am really here" . But no! He if he is real can't even tell people that they are not serving in vain. the truth is God doesn't talk to Christians either. that is what I have seen through the last 30 years of belief. Why the hell do Christians need to go to other Christians to know what God wants? If the good Christian God is there why not just lead the sheep? it is bs. Too bad it takes so long for so many to find out. If you do hear from him though, you tell him I've been waiting for decades to hear from him, so has everybody else. I lost my faith in God when I genuinely went and searched for him. Read the bible from beginning to end and study it. NO ANSWERS,NO ANSWERS, NO ANSWERS! If you knock and no one answers means no one is home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 I am currently a Christian although for the last few years I have bordered on agnosticism. I will happily leave my faith if I am presented with one or more solid reasons why I should. Logically, morally,scientifically, rationally or otherwise. "Rational"? How about virgin births, talking donkeys, talking snakes, flying horses, angels, demons, devils, sticks turning into snakes, whores riding around on seven headed dragons, zombies, ghosts, space travel to heaven, etc. etc. etc. Which of these absurdities did you think were rational enough for you to remain a Christian? Why is it that every single time someone brings all of this ridiculous shit to somebody else's attention, THEY ALWAYS FORGET ABOUT THE SATYRS ?!?!?!?!?! :banghead: :banghead: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Well, OK??? So where is the guy who asked the question? Was he just trying using the guise of a sincere question, for an insincere reason? Christians! Insincerity under the cloak of religion. Man, you want your answer why we left them? It's right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolution_beyond Posted July 1, 2007 Share Posted July 1, 2007 It's been a real eye-opener for me in the few months I have been on this site. Despite having been something of a heretic for many years - and now a full fledged atheist, I like to discuss matters of a philosophical or theological nature and have been desperate for a really involved debate with a christian who can answer many of my questions or objections. Now obviously i wouldn't believe what i believed if I thought that a christian would be able to answer my queries succesfully. But I am continually disappointed that they don't even want to stick around for the discussion. Is it that they know they can't back up their beliefs with rational thought? Or is it that they are not really as lovingly concerned about our spiritual well-being as they make out? They would rather protect their feeling that they are right to believe what they believe than actually help us out. It's been an eye-opener anyway and i am more determined than ever that the way to truth and the way to being a better person to your fellow human beings is not christianity Darwin is more of a hero to me than Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted July 1, 2007 Share Posted July 1, 2007 I am currently a Christian although for the last few years I have bordered on agnosticism. I will happily leave my faith if I am presented with one or more solid reasons why I should. Logically, morally,scientifically, rationally or otherwise. I think you should remain a Christian. In many ways it's much easier for us if you don't think for yourself. Please keep up the good work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perianwalsh Posted July 1, 2007 Share Posted July 1, 2007 check out on jewish site whatjewsbelieve jewsforjudaism.org also infidel guy's links(including prophecies & other issues) exchrisitan links(look 4 serious links) I suggest u look over theology issues in christianity first.And not just look into christian site read skpetic blogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted July 1, 2007 Share Posted July 1, 2007 It's been a real eye-opener for me in the few months I have been on this site. Despite having been something of a heretic for many years - and now a full fledged atheist, I like to discuss matters of a philosophical or theological nature and have been desperate for a really involved debate with a christian who can answer many of my questions or objections. Now obviously i wouldn't believe what i believed if I thought that a christian would be able to answer my queries succesfully. But I am continually disappointed that they don't even want to stick around for the discussion. Is it that they know they can't back up their beliefs with rational thought? Or is it that they are not really as lovingly concerned about our spiritual well-being as they make out? They would rather protect their feeling that they are right to believe what they believe than actually help us out. It's been an eye-opener anyway and i am more determined than ever that the way to truth and the way to being a better person to your fellow human beings is not christianity Darwin is more of a hero to me than Jesus. This can be almost a topic unto itself, but I've found in my time here on this site that those who are most passionate about "sharing" their faith are those who seem the least interested in us as people. They stand for "The Truth" which gives them this sense of rightness - in their own eyes. You sense over and over again the common theme that they are about supressing their humanity with something that allows them to feel good about themselves, rather than their religious experience being something moves them out of themselves into a bigger world that includes us. Empathy is sign of emotion/spiritual maturity. But their evangelism is all about them trying to convince themselves they are doing something good in the act of being a "witness for the Lord". They aren't. They are an insult to what the sign "God" is supposed to point to - even according to their own Bible. As I said above, I left Christianity because it didn't allow me to grow beyond this pretense of compassion. And that's all it is when you apply commandments to morality. Their "compassion" is insincere. It's not genuine. So if our original poster is in fact sincere and I am mistaken he isn't, then this is probably the biggest reason for him to consider leaving it. But as I said, if you're comfortable in that place, then to leave that system of rules and regulations might seem too frightening for some people to endure emotionally. Not me, however. "Truth" is too big to put a face on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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