Heaven and Hell

[Lokmer]

and then I'm use to....

 

I read along with everything she types. I hardly recognize anything as scriptural....which is where I believe Christianity comes from.

 

I'm not judging........just making an observation.

 

It took me a while to figure it out too. But it's a well established tradition in Christianity, going back to Origen and Augustine at least. It basically maintains an approach to scripture similar to what the Jews have always taken - that it is a living document rather than a static revelation - a vehicle by which God communicates to the believer, rather than beign the sum total of God's communication itself. In other words, Scripture as a *vehicle* of revelation rather than revelation itself. Currently the neo-orthodox, the Catholics, and to a lesser extent the orthodox, quakers, lutherans, and episcopalians maintain this approach to scripture. The "Common-sense plain reading of the text" that you hold to comes out of the Second Great Awakening in the early 10th century, and the traditional Protestant reading of scripture comes from an older catholic approach that is somewhere in between the two extremes.

 

-Lokmer

[DeathWorship]

heaven is an eternal mushroom trip

hell is being stuck inside a giant army ant bed...

 

actually... i only believe in total oblivion, so i can't seriously answer this question.

[thomas]

Thomas, she's a gnostic Christian - totally different animal than you're used to.

-Lokmer

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Thanks

[thomas]

Thomas, I am not a "traditional" Christian. I, 'personally' seek for knowledge of Jesus with conclusions that often are not in harmony with "traditional" Christianity. Meaningful concepts for meaningful communication about life in this world is without offense to me.

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Amanda

 

I was wondering if you were some kind of a universalist, but now I understand that you are a gnostic Christian. I do not know much about your kind of Christianity. I believe that search for wisdom and deep insights into the real (spiritual) world are important to you, but if I am right, thats all I know.

 

Do you believe in some kind of universal salvation? or ....?

[Guest bdp]

Jean Paul Sarte postulated that hell is other people. I would assert that hell is the absence of other people. And I'm not talking about afterlife, I'm talking here and now as here and now is all we can know and verify ('The Matrix' was fiction, a challenging fiction but fiction nonetheless).

 

bdp

[Amanda]

Thomas, she's a gnostic Christian - totally different animal than you're used to.

-Lokmer

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Hello Lokmer.

Gnostic Christian? I had to look that up. One who adheres to gnosticism.

 

gnos·ti·cism 

: the thought and practice especially of various cults of late pre-Christian and early Christian centuries distinguished by the conviction that matter is evil and that emancipation comes through gnosis

gno·sis 

: esoteric knowledge of spiritual truth held by the ancient Gnostics to be essential to salvation

 

Matter is not evil! How could that make sense? Salvation is not esoteric, not for a few but for ALL.

No secret to my interpretations. I study the Bible based on two postulates.

1. Everything in the original text is true.

2. Truth never contradicts truth.

And this method:

Research each word's complete evolution for a more comprehensive meaning. I use to use resources for a sense of ambiance for the time of Christ, yet rarely do that any more. I recommend bible tools on crosswalk.com

 

Is gnostic still the label of choice for me?

[Guest vanesa]

Heaven to me is where I am ruler of the world.

[Lokmer]

Gnostic Christian? I had to look that up. One who adheres to gnosticism. 

 

Matter is not evil! How could that make sense? Salvation is not esoteric, not for a few but for ALL.

No secret to my interpretations. I study the Bible based on two postulates.

1. Everything in the original text is true.

2. Truth never contradicts truth.

And this method:

Research each word's complete evolution for a more comprehensive meaning. I use to use resources for a sense of ambiance for the time of Christ, yet rarely do that any more. I recommend bible tools on crosswalk.com

 

Is gnostic still the label of choice for me?

 

There are a few senses of the word "gnostic." One is in reference to the Gnostic Religion as expressed through the gnostic gospels, and an offshoot of classical platonism. Another is as a coloquial term - one who holds to a secret knowledge. A third is a reference to the mystical/monistic tradition that has run parallel to the church from its inception and is an offshoot of the Gnostic way of thinking. Not in the sense that matter is evil, but in the sense that the knowledge of God imbues all creation - as Schleirmacher said "The world is alive with the grandeur of God."

 

You seem to be the third type If I'm wrong, let me know.

 

-Lokmer

[chefranden]

I don't think so JP. I think it's going to be just like right now only everything in it's perfect state.

 

Imagine everything you do...........now imagine it "perfect".

 

Sounds boring to me. I like to play chess. If everything is like now except perfect, how can I play chess? If everyone plays chess perfectly the only possible outcome will be a draw. If every time I cast a plug I catch a fish where is the sport?

 

Things wouldn't be perfect if my best buddy and my beloved wife didn't make the cut, therefore many sinners will have to be let in or heaven won't be perfect. Therfore in order for heaven to be perfect it must be imperfect. Didn't Kirk make some robot's head smoke with that one?

[Amanda]

There are a few senses of the word "gnostic."  One is in reference to the Gnostic Religion as expressed through  the gnostic gospels, and an offshoot of classical platonism.  Another is as a coloquial term - one who holds to a secret knowledge.  A third is a reference to the mystical/monistic tradition that has run parallel to the church from its inception and is an offshoot of the Gnostic way of thinking.  Not in the sense that matter is evil, but in the sense that the knowledge of God imbues all creation - as Schleirmacher said "The world is alive with the grandeur of God."

 

You seem to be the third type   If I'm wrong, let me know.

 

-Lokmer

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Plato, I like his allegory of the cave... there's an insight there. There are hidden truths, yet I wouldn't consider them secret... if so I've shared the method for access. Well, we're defining my beliefs by narrow perameters... but, "The world is alive with the grandeur of God" is a statement I would claim. You are wise and discern in an incredibly decisive manner. I like how you are starting... can you categorize me more specifically now?

 

And if you'd be so kind to allow me to reciprocate... with my virtual obscurity to the knowledge of labels... is their more to your belief than 'what is the point?' I'm sure that is a narrow representation to something much more pervasive... no? Is their a philosopher with which you closely identify?

[Lokmer]

I think you would enjoy Barth and Tillich, though would agree completely with neither.

 

Myself, I enjoy Schopenhaur, Voltair, Camus, Kierkegaard, Neitzche, Hobbes, and a handful of others. Any gods: "What's the point?" is an honest statement - I've been down that road and I don't think there's a lot that's profitable in that question. Whether there is a god or not, the approach to life - one of gratitude and wonder - is the same. I'm intellectually an atheist, and emotionally a panentheist, which is a side effect of being an artist with a naturally philosophical and contemplative bent. Philosophically, I'm a metaphysical naturalist, intellectually I'm a skeptic, and emotionally I'm a mystic.

 

Does that help?

 

-Lokmer

[Guest Rufus]

According to the Bible Heaven is full of feasting, ever flowing booze and parties.

[Amanda]

Philosophically, I'm a metaphysical naturalist, intellectually I'm a skeptic, and emotionally I'm a mystic.

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Hey Lokmer... I could say that about me! Only you said it much better than I could. Maybe you DO know me better than I know mysef!

 

Now let me ask you this... as I now regard you as an expert ... there isn't much difference between the metaphysical and mystic, is there? Metaphysical is of what is beyond the physical, and a mystic seeks those mysteries.... you haven't ruled out the "Book" have you? There are some wonderful metaphysical revelations in the study of the mystic works of Jesus, if one approaches the face value of the teachings as a skeptic, causing one to go down deeper.

[Amanda]

Amanda, you can do as you like, but I have to interject that this is a very dishonest way to study.  You are basing your study on circular logic.  On what premise have you determined that the Bible is true?  You are not supposed to come to the conclusion before you do the research, or your research will be skewed to fit your predetermined outcome.  That is a very dishonest way to go about researching.

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Thank you Madame M for sharing that with me! (I could of been more specific if I thought someone was really listening!) Yet, this is more pervasive than you accredited it. Everything in the Bible is true, yet everything that is true is not in the Bible, although there is enough in the Bible to let us know what IS true. Truth does not contradict truth... no matter where the truth comes... including science. Truths outside the Bible, example science, are always helping expose/define the truths IN the Bible meant for our time. This is not to imply the Bible is wrong... just sometimes our interpretations are... and this process lends its way to reveal a closer accuracy to what the Bible is saying. This could also be said of science, our interretations are not always right, we are always transforming to a more closely accurate interpretation of science. Perhaps a way of revealing truths meant for our time by a higher power, and the Bible as a way of validating there is a higher power?

 

So, how can one presuppose a conclusion before the research... as a final conclusion is constantly manifesting itself... hence, the Living Bible.

[Vixentrox]

See many four legged insects running around lately?

[Mr. Neil]

No, but I saw a rabbit chewing his cud and a snake eating dirt the other day.

 

[Reach]

Now let me ask you this... as I now regard you as an expert  ...

With all due respect, Amanda, you should exercise great caution in attributing to others, worthy as they may be, the title of expert. I do not wish to be unkind here, whatsoever, but you have repeatedly revealed to the rest of us that you are simply too gullible.

 

I caution you to not put people on pedestals; they will always fall off of them, if you give them enough time.

 

Your childlike trust and open-heartedness can look adorable on you but it's dangerous ground. Be careful, ok? Be careful who you worship.

 

I apologize if you think I've overstepped some boundaries by saying this. I have your best interests at heart, not that I know what they are specifically, but I wish you safe and well.

 

-Reach

[Mr. Neil]

Absolutely right, Reachie! Even Neil can be wrong sometimes.

 

Like this one time, I was totally wrong about something. I thought I made a mistake, but I didn't.

[Cerise]

[Amanda]

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but what?  See, you are doing it again, you are presupposing the Bible as true and using it as a knowledge filter.  You are determining beforehand that the Bible is the truth, and then whatever outside the Bible doesn't line up, is thus discarded. 

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Madame M, I don't think you are trying to give me a hard time! I think you are trying to help me explore what you think may be a blind spot in my vision so that I can see more clearly. Thank You!

 

What I am saying is that I do consider the Bible, in its deeper meanings... has a harmony, a unification with truth. If something outside the Bible doesn't agree with what I've interpreted, I can go two ways. I can research and refine MY INTERPRETATION of the Bible, and/or I can research and continue to consider the validity of the outside source. Truth, where ever it comes, can not contradict itself... can it? The amazing accuracy of the Bible is always presenting itself through science, perhaps validating a supreme being?

[Alice]

Vigile,

I have never thought of it like that.  Yes, eternal perfection would get old fast and start to suck.  Actually, I think that living forever would start to suck too.  I really don't want to live forever...that's why I hope that there's nothingness at the end.

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Sounds boring to me.  I like to play chess.  If everything is like now except perfect, how can I play chess?  If everyone plays chess perfectly the only possible outcome will be a draw.  If every time I cast a plug I catch a fish where is the sport?

 

Things wouldn't be perfect if my best buddy and my beloved wife didn't make the cut, therefore many sinners will have to be let in or heaven won't be perfect. Therfore in order for heaven to be perfect it must be imperfect. Didn't Kirk make some robot's head smoke with that one?

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Ok ... I'm just postulating here but if in order to be 'perfect' - heaven would have to be imperfect .... does that apply to earth as well?... all those arguments where people say if god created the world then he created evil as well so he must be bad if indeed he exists at all ... well is that really true? or is this (a world in which there is both good and evil) at some base level - how we like it?

 

Ok for a moment there I thought I'd stumbled on something new ... then I remembered I've seen the 'matrix' more than once .... but what are we saying ... that we want Heaven to be just a little bit imperfect ... or just like the world is now?

 

I guess most of us would think that we would want there to be no incurable disease, no terrible accidents, no torture, no murder, no child abuse ...

 

Is heaven having occasions when you lose a game of chess or fluff the pool shot but nothing much worse than that ever happens ...Would that produce enough of the adrenaline rush that life here can give ... would learning have the same kick if there was nothing really bad to make good as a result of your research? Would love have the same intensity if there wasn't a chance that one day the one we love would be gone?

[Lokmer]

With all due respect, Amanda, you should exercise great caution in attributing to others, worthy as they may be, the title of expert. I do not wish to be unkind here, whatsoever, but you have repeatedly revealed to the rest of us that you are simply too gullible.

 

Amanda, listen to Reach. She is one of my closest friends and respects me well enough to know that I'm not worthy of worship. I am a well-read and intelligent man, but I am not to be taken without due dilligence. There are many people here who are wiser than I, and many other people on many sides of every issue I feel passionate about who are smarter and better educated than I am.

 

Develop a critical mind, don't just grab anything that comes by that sounds good.

 

----

 

Reach, thanks for saying this - I didn't know quite how to respond.

-Lokmer

[Amanda]

With all due respect, Amanda, you should exercise great caution in attributing to others, worthy as they may be, the title of expert. I do not wish to be unkind here, whatsoever, but you have repeatedly revealed to the rest of us that you are simply too gullible.

 

I caution you to not put people on pedestals; they will always fall off of them, if you give them enough time.

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Thank you Reach... Maybe, more appropriately, I should just be more recognizant of what seems to be a more extensive background in that area, compared to myself, and will therefore give their input more consideration... not absolute validity.

 

It seems that each and every person here operates out of their own unique position of 'power', or an area of greatest knowledge unique to that person... which gives wonderful insights to the rest of us, of these many different perspectives.

 

You're right in that a mindset of trusting the many experts existing today would set anyone up for disappointment or either diminish their own existence... wouldn't it? That's one good point about atheism as it pertains to the evaluation of existence, there are no other 'gods' before ME, I am?.... and perhaps validates my own view that my individual spiritual awakening must be a personally explored journey that gaurds what constitutes my own uniqueness.

 

Sure YOU'RE not an expert? Just kidding! hehe Thanks again.... and please continue to offer your input.

[cyberdiva113]

Heaven to me is where I am ruler of the world.

[Amanda]

Just pointing out that most atheists don't consider a god at all, including themselves, so there are no other gods.  As an agnostic/atheist, I don't consider myself a "god" either and have nothing to put before me.

 

However, I assume that you're just being funny. ... And that's okay.

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Thank you Thankful... finally someone is beginning to understand me a bit better... understanding that gods (jestfully) in regards to people we put on pedestals. Thank you for setting my record straight!