F*ck! I Still Believe In Some Of It?!

[ToHellWithMe]

I'm 22 and I've not professed any religion, least of them Christianity, in three and half years. I never was a bible-reader, I just adopted the morals and everything from what I was told by my parents and christian summer camp teachers and such. When I finally tried to do some bible reading and thinking on christian issues, like there being both evil and suffering in the world and in the other hand the creator of it is supposedly a good, omnipotent, omniscient god. Based on that and a few similar, strictly logical issues (I believe in logic), I rejected what I was taught.

 

Now I'm beginning to see that I still profess a lot of the christian morals and ethics and ideals and such. And they HURT. I fear they hurt so much because they're TRUE. Well, true as much as ethics can be 'true', like, correspond well enough with reality and with universally or generally accepted ideal behaviour.

 

What hurts me so much now is what Jesus said about adultery. Even looking at other women than your own wife means that you've committed adultery in your heart, if not physically. But I can't help it! I have had my girlfriend for 5 months now but still perceive other women sexually appealing, too. And when i look at them, i sometimes dream of touching and kissing. I told about this to my girlfriend who's never been a christian and she took it very badly. She cried and refused to talk to me at all for a while and after a few days told me maybe we should break up and that i should find someone perfect, with whom i won't even think of other women as women.

 

According to Jesus i've sinned. According to my girlfriend i've sinned. I haven't given shit about Jesus in a while, but my girlfriend is a goddess and an angel to me, and SHE, TOO, thinks i've sinned. It hurts. I want to change. I don't know how. I don't want to go to christians and ask them to teach me to play Jesus to get me rid of this filthiness. I also never want to give up my girlfriend who's perfect in nearly every way, but very strict. I love my girlfriend much more than i hate Christianity.

 

This isn't all there is to the splendour of christian ethics, i think. There's also the wonderful altruism and the pointer that one should perfect one's own faults before accusing others of them (something i've found very wise in this love thing), the fact that true greatness is found and realized in serving others, the need for belief in whatever you're doing to make it happen and i guess there's much more, i just can't think of more for this list now.

[OnceConvinced]

Now I'm beginning to see that I still profess a lot of the christian morals and ethics and ideals and such. And they HURT. I fear they hurt so much because they're TRUE. Well, true as much as ethics can be 'true', like, correspond well enough with reality and with universally or generally accepted ideal behaviour.

 

Some of it is good. And as you say, they are unversally accepted ethics. Some of it is just common sense.

 

What hurts me so much now is what Jesus said about adultery. Even looking at other women than your own wife means that you've committed adultery in your heart, if not physically. But I can't help it! I have had my girlfriend for 5 months now but still perceive other women sexually appealing, too. And when i look at them, i sometimes dream of touching and kissing. I told about this to my girlfriend who's never been a christian and she took it very badly. She cried and refused to talk to me at all for a while and after a few days told me maybe we should break up and that i should find someone perfect, with whom i won't even think of other women as women.

 

This is just human nature. We were born that way. If we didn't have sexual desires, then we wouldn't be human. One could even say (if they believed in God) that God made us that way, so why should we feel guilty about it?

 

As for telling your girlfirend, I commend you for wanting to be open with her about everything, but unfortunately many women are unable to face the fact that it's human nature for a man to find other women sexually appealing. One would hope that she would be able to trust you not to act on those urges. Unfortunately I think (something I have only recently learnt) that we as men just need to keep our mouths shut about such things, because many women have the crazy notion that you don't love or desire them enough if you look at other women, which of course is nonsense. My current partner is particularly difficult when it comes to that sort of thing and actually asks me whether I look at other women sometimes. Knowing full well she will go through the roof if I say yes, I have to tell white lies instead, just to keep the peace. Oh why oh why do women ask questions when they don't really want to hear the truth? sigh!

 

According to Jesus i've sinned. According to my girlfriend i've sinned. I haven't given shit about Jesus in a while, but my girlfriend is a goddess and an angel to me, and SHE, TOO, thinks i've sinned. It hurts. I want to change. I don't know how. I don't want to go to christians and ask them to teach me to play Jesus to get me rid of this filthiness. I also never want to give up my girlfriend who's perfect in nearly every way, but very strict. I love my girlfriend much more than i hate Christianity.

 

Wow, this sounds like my girlfriend. She wasn't a Christian but came along to church once and heard the scripture read about how if you think about committing adultry in your heart, then you have committed it. Then she had a go at me accusing me of being unfaithful because I had admitted once (like you did) that I sometimes looked at other woman!

[ToHellWithMe]

Thankyou for your reply! It calms me down. At least I'm not alone with this problem. And yes, I can't live if i'm not honest. I never ever want to lie to my girlfriend and I want to tell here every single thing that matters to me or that might matter to her. I just go crazy for a while and can't sleep my nights if I can't be honest. (Last night i waited 6 hours for sleep, these thoughts racing in my head with gazillions of others, equally scary possibilities.)

Still, what Jesus said about adultery by just looking... was bible perhaps partially written by women?!

[mwc]

Now I'm beginning to see that I still profess a lot of the christian morals and ethics and ideals and such. And they HURT. I fear they hurt so much because they're TRUE. Well, true as much as ethics can be 'true', like, correspond well enough with reality and with universally or generally accepted ideal behaviour.

First of all...there's nothing wrong with morals or ethics. The fact of the matter is that the xian religion has been around long enough in Western society that even if you hadn't been taught any of it the morals and ethics would have still got to you since they exist in the ambient society around you. More so in the USA right now but even in Europe and all the other places where the religion had been so dominate at any point. That's just the way it is but don't let people, including yourself, twist it so that this general atmosphere is somehow used to "prove" how "right" the bible and its teachings are. If they were so "right" these morals and ethics wouldn't exist without the bible and likewise they wouldn't have needed to been forced onto people how they were.

 

What hurts me so much now is what Jesus said about adultery. Even looking at other women than your own wife means that you've committed adultery in your heart, if not physically. But I can't help it! I have had my girlfriend for 5 months now but still perceive other women sexually appealing, too. And when i look at them, i sometimes dream of touching and kissing. I told about this to my girlfriend who's never been a christian and she took it very badly. She cried and refused to talk to me at all for a while and after a few days told me maybe we should break up and that i should find someone perfect, with whom i won't even think of other women as women.

Whether jesus even existed aside let's look at this. First of all to "sin" against a "god" there needs to be a "god." Do you believe in a "god?" Do you believe that you somehow broke its rule? If so, then you "sinned." If not, then you did not "sin." You claim that you do not believe in a "god" so therefore you did not "sin" since there was nothing to "sin" against in the first place. So far so good on the "sinning" issue.

 

I hate to tell you this, but, looking at other women is normal and natural. By trying to make it something it is not (unnatural) you are fighting an uphill battle and really causing a lot of problems for yourself. You are creating guilt that doesn't need to be there for one thing. You are going to make it a lot worse since you are always going to be focusing on it so what might have been a fleeting thought will become an obsession for another.

 

Now, that aside, maybe you're not entirely committed to your girlfriend but want to convince yourself you really are. I don't know but this could be your sub-conscious telling you something you don't want to hear. Why do I say that? Your GF is obviously very insecure. Now, I'm not saying you should have shared all that with her just to clear your conscious (you probably shouldn't have since it served no real purpose) unless you know she's insecure and you wanted to send her packing.

 

According to Jesus i've sinned. According to my girlfriend i've sinned. I haven't given shit about Jesus in a while, but my girlfriend is a goddess and an angel to me, and SHE, TOO, thinks i've sinned. It hurts. I want to change. I don't know how. I don't want to go to christians and ask them to teach me to play Jesus to get me rid of this filthiness. I also never want to give up my girlfriend who's perfect in nearly every way, but very strict. I love my girlfriend much more than i hate Christianity.

Does your GF think you've sinned or does she think you want to 1) have an "open" relationship where you screw around (and she doesn't or the old 3-way fantasy) or 2) dump her because you find other women more attractive? Like I said above, you told her this to "absolve" yourself but I'm guessing she was probably pretty happy in the relationship up until that point. This came out of nowhere in her eyes and so she's probably thinking you don't find her as good as these other women. If she wasn't insecure before she is now but I imagine you knew she was insecure her body/sex before and this is why you chose this route.

 

Putting someone on a pedestal and then knocking them off for no reason is not the nicest of things to do by the way. She surely didn't deserve it from what I've read.

 

This isn't all there is to the splendour of christian ethics, i think. There's also the wonderful altruism and the pointer that one should perfect one's own faults before accusing others of them (something i've found very wise in this love thing), the fact that true greatness is found and realized in serving others, the need for belief in whatever you're doing to make it happen and i guess there's much more, i just can't think of more for this list now.

Hurting others in the name of "perfecting" yourself is not, by any means, fixing your faults but simply hurting others.

 

I realize that this all sounds quite harsh but I've seen play out more than a few times in my life where someone who tried to "get themselves together" simply used that as an excuse to hurt everyone around them. I really hope I'm mistaken about you but if you were really serious you would have said nothing to your GF, "fixed" yourself in silence and kept the relationship going without hurting her. She didn't have to know what went on in your head nor did she have to "absolve" you or share in your "sin" since the relationship would never benefit from that. You never touched another person. She never had to make a choice to stay or go since there was never another person in the relationship. It was all in your head but you put it on her anyway. You're making her deal with your problem. That's more selfish and "sinful" that any "thought" you had about another women...especially for such a young relationship.

 

Oh, by the way, welcome to the site.

 

mwc

[ToHellWithMe]

don't let people, including yourself, twist it so that this general atmosphere is somehow used to "prove" how "right" the bible and its teachings are. If they were so "right" these morals and ethics wouldn't exist without the bible and likewise they wouldn't have needed to been forced onto people how they were.

Thankyou. I kind of sensed there was something wrong with my reasoning, but couldn't quite put my finger on it.

 

 

I hate to tell you this, but, looking at other women is normal and natural. By trying to make it something it is not (unnatural) you are fighting an uphill battle and really causing a lot of problems for yourself. You are creating guilt that doesn't need to be there for one thing. You are going to make it a lot worse since you are always going to be focusing on it so what might have been a fleeting thought will become an obsession for another.

I don't hate to hear that. Admitting that will hurt but still I needed to hear that from another man, too.

 

The rest i don't quite understand.

It's obvious you think there's something wrong with me, but the expressions "Putting someone on a pedestal and then knocking them off for no reason is not the nicest of things to do by the way." or "It was all in your head but you put it on her anyway. You're making her deal with your problem." don't quite dawn on me.

 

Well let's start with the first one.

 

Putting someone on a pedestal and then knocking them off for no reason is not the nicest of things to do by the way.

I suppose that the fact that i often see her as an angel could be seen as putting her on a pedestal. If this is not what you meant, correct me, please. I don't see how i have knocked her off that pedestal. Well in my head, yeah, i guess. She seems to me less godly and more human as our relationship develops, but that doesn't make me love her less. I suppose you should blame nature, not me, really, if this kind of worship-turning-to-disillumination is common to many men in love. I'm just expressing openly what i feel.

 

On to the second one.

 

It was all in your head but you put it on her anyway. You're making her deal with your problem.

Well, the only problem is that you see this as a problem. Yes, i perceive the problems in my head. And yes, i'm making her deal with my problem, like i'm making you deal with my problem now, because i'm incapable of and going crazy trying to solve it alone. She, too, gives me her problems to deal with, as i have asked her to. I think that's what people taking responsibility of each other should do. And yes, that's how i'm trying to find peace through this. When she's not able to deal with my problem anymore, i want her to return it right back at me.

 

What you suggest, that i should keep some things to myself, is unacceptable to me. I want a relationship with ultimate openness and trust and honesty. If you can't help me with that or tell me why that is wrong, please wish me luck.

 

One final note:

Now, that aside, maybe you're not entirely committed to your girlfriend but want to convince yourself you really are.

Yes, this is a problem to me. I don't want to think i'm just convincing myself that i really am committed. I want to work toward REAL commitment. I do have some trust issues, but i am trying to solve them.

 

I don't know but this could be your sub-conscious telling you something you don't want to hear. Why do I say that? Your GF is obviously very insecure. Now, I'm not saying you should have shared all that with her just to clear your conscious (you probably shouldn't have since it served no real purpose) unless you know she's insecure and you wanted to send her

I don't quite understand your reasoning here, sorry. Why would it follow from my girlfriends insecurity (which is a fact i acknowledge) that i don't want to commit myself to her?

[Robbobrob]

You were dating her for 5 months and this is how she reacted to your honesty? Dude, that is not a good sign.

 

Like my WIFE says, "As long as you only look at the menu." And she looks at the menu too. The idea that we stop all interest because we find the right person to be our partner in life is foolish and dangerous to building a happy life.

 

And there is no "perfect woman" out there that stops all looking. There is the right woman, who you can focus those feelings onto, if you are so inclined to not "sleep around".

 

As far as what Jesus said...he was specifically targeting people who he needed to cast away all their human feelings, and follow him as he tried to build an army to defeat the Romans and become ruler of Isreal. Can't have your minions checking out the local chicks when you are trying to incite a revolution.

 

I do think people need to program themselves in order to create a good life, a life worth living. All self-mastery requires it. But I don't see where you need to be so brutal with yourself about looking at beautiful woman. In fact, I bet, if you let go of the whole Jesus said it's bad, you would find you crave those feelings less. Remove the feeling that it is the forbidden fruit, and you won't focus on it in your own mind. What you actively try to avoid only ssticks to you closer, is ALWAYS on your mind, instead of out of your head.

 

I know once I dropped all deities as moralistic "you are going to Hell" super policemen, my life got much better, and I make choices based on whether it adds real value to my life, not whether I'm making the Invisibles happy.

 

PLUS, you are 22. Don't be so hard on yourself. You are still young. You have lots of time to work on how you want to be, how you want to think.

[Vigile]

According to Jesus i've sinned. According to my girlfriend i've sinned.

 

And according to your natural biological makeup, you are perfectly normal. Religion creates false dillemas in order to keep you feeling guilty and under the thumb of the church. What you are experiencing is mild sexual repression you inherited from growing up in a sexually repressed society. Your urges and thoughts and feelings are natural and you have nothing to feel guilty about.

[ToHellWithMe]

Thanks, Vigile!

 

In fact, I bet, if you let go of the whole Jesus said it's bad, you would find you crave those feelings less. Remove the feeling that it is the forbidden fruit, and you won't focus on it in your own mind. What you actively try to avoid only ssticks to you closer, is ALWAYS on your mind, instead of out of your head.

Whoa, this I like! There's something for me to think about and aim to: removing the forbiddenness! X)

[Heimdall]

Now I'm beginning to see that I still profess a lot of the christian morals and ethics and ideals and such. And they HURT.

Morals and ethics are not dependent on religion. Every society has them, they are the grease that oil the wheels of social intercourse/interaction. Morals are common sense rules that allow groups of people to live together without general anarchy and mayhem and existed long before organized religions existed. To assign the term “Christian” to a moral, it must first be obvious that that particular rule originated with Christianity and off hand I can think of none that did. Most were in existence centuries and millennia before the Holy Spook got a hard-on for Mary the wife of Joseph!

 

What hurts me so much now is what Jesus said about adultery. Even looking at other women than your own wife means that you've committed adultery in your heart, if not physically. But I can't help it!

A couple of points here…(1) We have no idea of what Jesus said, the gospels were written long after (several generations later) Jesus supposedly walked this earth and were written by individuals who were not witnesses nor had access to witnesses of the events and speech recorded in them. This is evident in the unreliability of the NT to pin down a birth year (or for that matter century) for their little tin-plated godling. (2) When the gospels were written (as I said, long after the fact), they were written by male members of a patriarchy, either a Jewish patriarchy, a Greek patriarchy or a Roman patriarchy. Patriarchies are “hell on wheels” when it comes to asserting a man’s rights towards his spouse(s), daughters and female relatives. Jesus’ supposed words only reflect that patriarchal attitude in which women are chattel and no man had the right to look at (lust after) any woman that was not “his”. You are trying to abide by a system of morals that died millennia ago (with the exception of our Islamic brethren), it is time to move into the 21st century and “shake the dust of 150 CE from your sandals”.

 

I told about this to my girlfriend who's never been a christian and she took it very badly.

Well DUH!!! This is the advice of an old man (I am 65 years of age), Never, never, never ever admit to even looking at another woman to your spouse/girl friend/mistress! That is tantamount to asking to have your head handed to you on a silver tray! Women (as are men) are very unsecure folk and take it personally if they think that you aren’t satisfied with them in any way! They tend to take it personally and even sometimes violently (oh, the scars I could show you) when faced with such comments! Religion has nothing to do with this insecurity, it is a human trait, not a Christian or Moslem or Jewish or Buddhist trait! Never ever let a woman catch you looking and never make off hand comments about how pretty another woman is. While I am at it, Never respond to such questions as, “Do these pants make my butt look big.” These are the things that can get you killed or in very serious relationship troubles. LOL

 

 

It hurts. I want to change. I don't know how.

You are a typical male of the species…the females have us totally “whipped” and running in circles to please them (I am as guilty as anyone because I love my Lady). You can never change enough to satisfy them, just as they can never be physically or mentally perfect enough for us, so your best bet is to not let them know what you think and watch every word you say – else it will be couch time for you! LOL

 

 

I don't want to go to christians and ask them to teach me to play Jesus to get me rid of this filthiness.

Sex and sexual desire are not filthy…suppressing them, as do the Christians, if what is filthy! The Creator/Evolution gave us that desire as a method to insure the continuation of the species (and if you buy the Creator bit, to provide us with titillation and maybe a bit of fun). Christians on the whole have a worse track record than do Deists, Agnostics and Atheists, so I wouldn’t ask for their help. That would be like asking Barney Fife of Mayberry for shooting lessons! LOL

 

This isn't all there is to the splendour of christian ethics, i think. There's also the wonderful altruism and the pointer that one should perfect one's own faults before accusing others of them (something i've found very wise in this love thing), the fact that true greatness is found and realized in serving others, the need for belief in whatever you're doing to make it happen and i guess there's much more, i just can't think of more for this list now.

If you will look at ancient history, most ancient religions were as altruistic as Christianity and must less likely to judge others. All religions emphasize service of others (usually others being served give the clergy amble opportunity to skim some of the funds), so this too isn’t a concept that is specific to Christianity. Hell, even us Deists, Agnostics and Atheists are as altruistic as any Christian. Just hang in there, you will learn soon that none of us males will ever understand the female of the species, all we can do is lie and cope! - Heimdall

[R. S. Martin]

Still, what Jesus said about adultery by just looking... was bible perhaps partially written by women?!

 

WHOA!

 

I know you're hurting and for good reason, but PLEASE don't EVER suggest that it's bad for the Bible to have been written in part by women. I am a woman. Society is patriarchal enough. We don't need the men suggesting that it's bad if there is some feminine input. And that is what I hear you saying.

[R. S. Martin]

I have now read the rest of this thread. I think it's very sad if men and women can't be honest and open with each other. On the other hand, I am also learning in my own life that there are things that are of such a personal nature that sharing them tends to be counterproductive.

 

I am also getting the impresssion that the need to be super-honest tends to be a sign of insecurity. In other words, what you needed in this case was your girlfriend's permission to look at other women. You needed that permission because you weren't sure that you measured up to your own inner standards.

 

Apparently your own insecurities around this comes from religious dictates. The men here have addressed that issue. I echo their sentiments that morals pre-existed religion. Somewhere I started a thread on that but I'm not sure where it is by now.

 

The Maiden's Dreams

 

Here's another thought. I have never seen you and don't know your physique. However, I know that men in general are rather insignificant creatures, but once in a long while a really stunning stag does show up. He looks like the "knight in shining armour" or "Prince Charming" that every princess or penniless maiden wants for a lover. Tall, rugged, strong jaw line, broad shoulders, confidence to take on the world--fit to lead an army. But for some inexplicable reason he's content with ME?!?!?!

 

If he manages never to disillusion me--blissful wonderful ignorance! I feel totally cared for. Totally secure. Never will I want for food or love or any worldly comfort.

 

There you've got the maiden's dreams--for those of you men who think women are so unpredictable and unknowable. She's been looked after and cared for--more or less--all her life. Suddenly she comes face to face with the fact that she is growing up and--HORROR!--must look after herself. However, if she is lucky enough to land some "knight in shining armor" with MONEY--or just a regular hard-working man who will provide food and home, life will be a lot easier.

 

The Charming Chick

 

Or perhaps she's been a charming chick from Day 1. Born cute. Enraptured grandparents and other relatives. Did great in school. Got the cutest boyfriend at the youngest age.

 

The Ordinary Girl

 

Or maybe she was just an ordinary girl with ordinary desires. Ordinary girls want all the things a "Prince Charming" can provide but they don't expect a Prince Charming to ever notice them. But ordinary boys do notice. Various ordinary boys take her out. She is used to being treated fair by peers of both genders as well as by elders and mentors of both genders.

 

Female Fears

 

According to the things I've read, even "Charming Chicks" feel ordinary, and that is what counts. Ordinary girls have ordinary fears. The pains of divorce are normally feared by normal young people so they try to make sure it doesn't happen to them. Along comes this ordinary young man who is a potential mate for herself and father for her children. Just when she is beginning to trust that he really is happy with her, along about five months or so into the relationship, he tells her upfront that he often looks at other women and dreams of fondling them.

 

WHOA! Red Herring! GET OUT!

 

Heart-breaking as this may be, she knows that for her own good and for the good of her children (if ever she finds a suitable man to have these kids with), she will leave him. She figures out how to put it to him in the least hurtful way: She will let him find the perfect woman for him.

 

Facing the Future

 

There! That should not make him feel so terribly bad. It puts the blame on herself. She is not faulting him for being less than she had hoped and dreamed for, though she is very deeply hurt that he isn't. She consoles herself that, no matter how much it hurts, it's better to find out now than later.

 

*****************

So there you have it. What's so difficult about that, O ye manly men-creatures of the human species? It sounds to me like the logic that is posted on here by both genders of all ages every day. I guess it might be elusive to a jilted lover. Hope it helps sooth the pain. Perhaps it will serve as a guiding star for next time.

 

I know, right now you don't feel like there possibly could be a next time. Even if there isn't, life with her would not have been "happily ever after" because real life is not that way. We just wish it were. And if you're an ordinary guy I think there will be a next time for you. But maybe not tomorrow.

[R. S. Martin]

And since your insecurities came from religion, and she is not religious, she probably cannot understand the impact religion had in this matter.

[ShackledNoMore]

I know that others have said much the same sort of thing, but I'll pitch in too.

 

It's true that the bible hit on some decent moral/ethical precepts, not because it is the word of any God that is not imaginary, but because it drew from various sources, and like any religious tradition, some of what it says involves behaving well and treating others well.

 

I do NOT consider the spiel about adultery something that got right. The feelings that you have--they're absolutely normal. If you did NOT possess this sort of sexuality, you never would have been attracted to your gf in the first place. Trust me--that verse did a lot of damage to me, and it was long before I ever had a girlfriend.

 

The important questions are, how do you treat your girlfriend, how do you behave in your relationship, are you true to her? (I believe one can be true in a closed OR open relationship, but not by cheating on a partner/spouse/gf/SO.) Is there honesty and respect?

 

Expectations that you do not feel churnings for other women are unrealistic either from any god or from a gf/spouse/SO. You get too obsessed about that sort of thing with a partner that you have no reason not to trust and you start having problems with jealousy issues.

[mwc]

Putting someone on a pedestal and then knocking them off for no reason is not the nicest of things to do by the way.

I suppose that the fact that i often see her as an angel could be seen as putting her on a pedestal. If this is not what you meant, correct me, please. I don't see how i have knocked her off that pedestal. Well in my head, yeah, i guess. She seems to me less godly and more human as our relationship develops, but that doesn't make me love her less. I suppose you should blame nature, not me, really, if this kind of worship-turning-to-disillumination is common to many men in love. I'm just expressing openly what i feel.

What I meant by this is that you are building her up (she's an "angel" so I can imagine you've told her other things like how beautiful she is and how sexy and wonderful and all those things so that she feels she is the only one for you) which sounds innocent enough but then you give her this contradictory message that you desire these other women. Wham! You knock her right off that pedestal you placed her on. What did she do to deserve this other than exist in your life? Nothing. She never asked to be put on the pedestal (some people do demand such treatment so please correct me if I'm wrong and your GF is like this). But now she's not sure where she stands with you. Is she this "angel" or this less than adequate other being? How can she ever know for sure? I'm willing to bet she just wanted to be your GF which is just someone special, but just equal, to you and nothing really more.

 

I fully understand that in the early phases of a relationship we all tend to see the other person through those rose colored glasses so I can cut you a little slack on all of this. It's just that normally when we have someone who supposedly means this much to us we don't do things that hurt them if we can avoid doing so.

 

Well, the only problem is that you see this as a problem. Yes, i perceive the problems in my head. And yes, i'm making her deal with my problem, like i'm making you deal with my problem now, because i'm incapable of and going crazy trying to solve it alone. She, too, gives me her problems to deal with, as i have asked her to. I think that's what people taking responsibility of each other should do. And yes, that's how i'm trying to find peace through this. When she's not able to deal with my problem anymore, i want her to return it right back at me.

 

What you suggest, that i should keep some things to myself, is unacceptable to me. I want a relationship with ultimate openness and trust and honesty. If you can't help me with that or tell me why that is wrong, please wish me luck.

Yes, I am telling you to keep some things to yourself.

 

When I was about your age I had just gotten married to the first girl I had dated and pretty much everything else first time with. I had this very same issue. Thinking was as bad as doing. I was so far gone that I even stopped have sexual dreams (I can lucid dream) and so I became a huge basket case over this issue. I told my wife, but I did it a whole lot differently than you did. I told her that I refused to think/dream/whatever of other women since I thought it was cheating and a sin...all that stuff...and she told me basically all the stuff I told you. She told me what went on in my head was my business and that was that (of course I don't know if she still thinks that ) but the floods gates opened and all the pressure was off. I was back to "normal" for myself.

 

The point being is that if it goes on in YOUR head and it is only going on in YOUR head then there's no point in making it HER problem. If you can tell me how this was HER problem so much so that you had to discuss it with her then I'll understand but looking back on my own issues I looked to MY WIFE for PERMISSION to THINK and that is just plain WRONG. It was never my wife's problem but my problem. My hangup. I lookup to her to absolve me of a crime I never committed. You looked to your GF to do the same but you basically told her that you did a crime (from what I've read) and she believed you. Now you are looking to her to absolve you...for THINKING. You don't need ANYONE'S PERMISSION but YOUR OWN to THINK. It's is not a CRIME to THINK. It doesn't matter what the thought is. If you ACT on that thought then and only then do you have a problem, and so if you feel you are about to act on a thought (a "bad" thought) you should maybe inform someone, but until then you are simply THINKING. Does this make sense?

 

So tell me. You want to be totally open and honest. Do you tell your GF when you THINK, not actually DOING but ONLY thinking, about taking a shit? Picking your nose? Jerking off? Or any of those other filthy or embarrassing things that EVERYONE (including HER) do? If the answer is NO then you did NOT need to tell her about this since it is the SAME THING. Being open and honest means knowing what to say and what not to say...it does not mean saying every single thing that crosses your mind. That's why people will tell you that there is such a thing as "too much information." It's not a "lie" to respond that you weren't thinking anything when she asks if you were really thinking about that nasty fart building up in your gut. It's not a "lie" to tell her she's the prettiest women in the world when, odds are, she's not. If she is TO YOU then she IS...even if you jerk off to anyone/everyone but her. You already called her an "angel" but unless she really is...you're a liar. Being open and honest are good but know where to draw the line. Also, lies are relative to the situation. Hopefully my examples here have shed some light on these things.

 

I don't quite understand your reasoning here, sorry. Why would it follow from my girlfriends insecurity (which is a fact i acknowledge) that i don't want to commit myself to her?

You acknowledge you have trust issues. You acknowledge your GF is insecure. Usually someone who has trust issues will push their partner away when things get too serious for them. One method that is used is they will target a weakness of the partner causing the partner to withdraw so that the person with the trust issues can then justify their trust issues by telling themselves "See? I knew they couldn't be trusted." When, in fact, it was that person who really drove the other person off. So in your case you are "coming clean" to your GF and she leaves. You "opened" yourself to her and she leaves you. Your trust (or lack thereof) is now justified. Being "honest" doesn't pay. In reality you knew that she was insecure on this issue and your "honesty" was really used to play on her insecurity to (hopefully) force her away since the relationship was getting to serious for you. You sabotaged the relationship but can blame her since she is the one who "left." She's "bad" for leaving you for being "honest" when, in fact, you "attacked" her insecurity and drove her away out of fear. But perception is reality and you end up looking "good" and she ends up looking "bad." Now since she didn't leave yet this is all speculation but I'm just using it as an example of how these things play out. What appears quite simple on the surface is usually reversed behind the scenes.

 

mwc

[Robbobrob]

What I meant by this is that you are building her up (she's an "angel" so I can imagine you've told her other things like how beautiful she is and how sexy and wonderful and all those things so that she feels she is the only one for you) which sounds innocent enough but then you give her this contradictory message that you desire these other women. Wham! You knock her right off that pedestal you placed her on. What did she do to deserve this other than exist in your life? Nothing. She never asked to be put on the pedestal (some people do demand such treatment so please correct me if I'm wrong and your GF is like this). But now she's not sure where she stands with you. Is she this "angel" or this less than adequate other being? How can she ever know for sure? I'm willing to bet she just wanted to be your GF which is just someone special, but just equal, to you and nothing really more.

 

This pedestal thing has bitten me in the ass a couple of times. Even had one gf tell me to stop putting her on a pedestal. And I'm pretty sure that my first marriage ended because I could not stand up for myself, due to her pedestal being too high (but she was the type who wanted to be there and waited on hand and foot, mostly foot).

[ToHellWithMe]

Thanks for the replies! I am thankful for your sincerity! A lot of the points hurt me but that doesn't mean you want to hurt me. Yesterday i thought it might be so, for which i apologize, and got angry and didn't reply.

 

I simplifiend things to make my first message shorter. I did not tell my girlfriend out of blue "btw just fyi, other women are attractive to me, too". My girlfriend first told me about her (male) friend who is married and whose commitment to the marriage she despises, because he has, despite the marriage, sometimes taken to other women, too. He hasn't acted upon it, though. I don't remember the discussion entirely from that point, but i kinda went defensive and told that it is normal as far as i know, and after a while i ended up telling that i, too, do perceive the beauty and sex appeal in other women now even though i love her most, and still briefly experience various, including sexual, thoughts about them. She told that she feels cold in her heart and that what i told about myself disgusts her. I told that i don't plan taking someone else nor do i dwell upon those thoughts, but that i have no control over them. This didn't calm her down.

 

Especially your reply angered me, RubySera. That's good, I think. It shows me something.

 

Yes, my super-honesty probably is indeed a sign of insecurity. So what? I don't see any point in pointing that out, except hurting me. Can't honesty also be a way to fix that insecurity? I think it is, because i'm making sure those close to me accept me as I am. When i always tell everything i think might matter to me or them, they can trust me. I also want that they tell me everything that might matter to them or me, so i can trust them. I accept their imperfections that can't be helped and i want them to accept mine.

 

By the way, i dont think it's a bad for women to have influence in society. I'm surprised my line could be read that way. I just meant that i find it weird that the misogynic and patriarchal bible would have something in it that would instill feelings of guilt particularily in MEN. I wondered if that particular "sin" was designed by a woman.

 

I now understand the asking for permission thing. That shaked me most yesterday. I realized that's really what i've been doing when i demand an answer to the question whether she accepts that fault or not. I really should leave it to her, it's her responsibility to accept me as i am.

Now i wonder how many of other things that i've asked for are things that i really should ask permission for and how many are things i have natural right to and should just do if i want to.

 

Mwc,

Actually she has said to me that she wants me to see her as most perfect of all women in both body and mind. She says she sees me as the best of all men in all aspects. I call her angel because i don't want to lie. 'Angel' is also true: I sense more divinity in her than i ever sensed in religion and i worship her more than i ever worshipped jebus or sky daddy. Her mind is most brilliant and the most desireable to me, and i also desire her body, because she's very beautiful. Still, she's kinda small and my idea of the perfect womanly physique would maybe be a bit taller. Also, she has minor acne, and i can't honestly say that's part of my idea of perfection. I've once mentioned the fact that i don't like pimples (i, too, have acne) to her, and she refused to talk to me for a while after that... I was deeply hurt, too, but decided I won't give up on my principles on honesty.

[Japedo]

Thankyou for your reply! It calms me down. At least I'm not alone with this problem. And yes, I can't live if i'm not honest. I never ever want to lie to my girlfriend and I want to tell here every single thing that matters to me or that might matter to her. I just go crazy for a while and can't sleep my nights if I can't be honest. (Last night i waited 6 hours for sleep, these thoughts racing in my head with gazillions of others, equally scary possibilities.)

Still, what Jesus said about adultery by just looking...

 

 

Uhh No.

Can you be arrested and serve time for theft if you think about stealing something but you don't act on it? A zillion thoughts go thru our minds a day. Things sometimes pop into our heads for no rhyme or reason. Day dreaming or whatnot is not a crime. Everyday we are presented with choices. It is up to us to exercise both the choice and the consequences of those choices.

 

Not divulging every minute, infinitesimal, irrelevant detail that passes thru your thoughts is not lying. Why do some people feel the need to confess every thought that goes thru their head and act as though those thoughts are equivalent to actions?

 

Sometimes I feel like slapping people, It runs thru my head how good it might feel to punch them in the nose. Does my thought of hitting someone equal assault? Common now...

 

According to What Jesus said about adultery, I guess he failed the test in the garden when Satan tempted him? Why? Because Christ would actually have to contemplate acting on for it to be temptation. In him doing that he entertained the idea. It was his bottom line of choice what he did or didn't do when it came down to making the choice. How the heck do you propose to live life with out thinking or entertain other ideas? Do Christians use that same measuring stick to Judge Christ? No.. they don't. I'd like to also state that I don't believe the buybull to be true in any form of the word. But if you're going to live around a verse and obsess over it, I don't mind pointing out other stories to give you peace of mind.

 

Your GF probably thinks your trying to break it to her that you want to see other people, You're attempting to let her down easy, as in the old It's not you its me type of excuse. That's how I'd take it. You need to find the art of keeping irrelevant details to yourself. If you don't wish to hurt or upset the girl, then telling her you wanna bang some hot chick.. but don't worry you wont isn't the road to go down. She'll feel like it's what your not saying that upsetting her . Everyone reads between the lines.

 

 

 

Thoughts are not actions... Please write 1000 times.

[Lycorth]

Welcome, ToHellWithMe!

 

First off, do NOT put your lady on a pedestal. Your love for her is admirable, but she isn't perfect, and neither are her opinions. As has been said, she's probably not aware how much the Xian brainwashing of the Western world has affected her - most of us aren't, even years after dumping Xianity.

 

And it can't be said enough times - looking at other women isn't a sin (there is no such thing as "sin" anyway), and nor is it wrong. It's a natural thing for heterosexual and bisexual men to enjoy the sight of a pretty female human - by fighting this and trying to "change" it you're just fighting against human nature, in fact, fighting against that very lustfulness within us that is so very vital to the existence of humanity.

 

Yes, lust is necessary for human existence. If we didn't get all hot and bothered for each other, enough to stir our sexual organs to life, we wouldn't have sex, and there is no procreation without sexual activity. And sex is fun, moreover - one of the oldest and most potentially rewarding human pasttimes.

 

But back on track here - the best thing for you to do is just throw out everything this so-called "saviour" said. It's nothing more than the scribblings of clearly deranged human beings. Cease fighting your perfectly natural and normal self and just enjoy who you are. It doesn't mean you love your girlfriend any the less or love yourself any the less - it's just being human.

 

My wife and I look at other people all the time. The list of people we would like to bed is ever-growing, it seems. But it doesn't detract from the love we have for each other. We know where our hearts and commitments are, and we know that sex doesn't always equate to "I love you and want only to be with you" - it can also equate to simple lustful indulgence and release, which is a perfectly amoral thing.

 

Sounds like your beloved is the one who needs the talking to.

[R. S. Martin]

Especially your reply angered me, RubySera. That's good, I think. It shows me something.

 

Yes, my super-honesty probably is indeed a sign of insecurity. So what? I don't see any point in pointing that out, except hurting me.

 

I guess if you want to see it that way you can. But it's not how I meant it. I thought you were asking for an analysis. If that is not what you meant, I apologize.

[ToHellWithMe]

Oops! My bad, RubySera.

 

I forgot to remove that sentence today when i completed and re-wrote the reply. I wrote half of my previous post yesterday when i was spouting flames of anger, and finally couldn't even finish it in a civilized way, so i just stopped writing and proceeded to hit walls with my bare fists, lol. I am on SSRI medication because of moderate depression, but maybe that medication really does NOT suit me well... gotta talk to my shrink in September, which when i'll meet her the next time. ><

 

I'm really thankful for your analysis. Today i realized finally that what hurt me, hurt me because it totally hit the sore spot, and i became irreversibly aware of that. First i thought that maybe you just were plain evil and enjoy hurting sensitive people on the internet. Hence that sentence.

 

Now, this problem is shot down and i'm currently stomping it dead. Big thanks to you all.

 

Now for some news:

 

Yesterday evening this shit culminated by making me tell every single thought that passed my mind to my girlfriend. She just stopped listening and went carrying on her usual stuff while i somewhat continuously babbled to her. Then, after a hour or so, self-reflection hit me and i wondered (aloud, of course) whether she even understands anything of my train of thought. She replied "no, when i try to listen, something just starts buzzing inside my head". I then fell silent for a few minutes and asked if she would mind it if i shut up and contemplated alone and told things to her only when they've become clear to me. She said she wouldn't mind. I asked whether it would be dishonest do do so, and to that she also said no. I lost control and started crying then. Because of the great relief i felt.

 

A short analysis (and the moral of the story as i perceive it) follows:

For some reason, the last week my sense of the virtue of honesty has been bloating up and twisting somehow. Last couple of days i thought it was the single most important thing in any relationship: ultimate openness. I forgot about patience. Totally. Now, since six hours ago or so, i acknowledge that while honesty is important, happiness is more important. Sometimes keeping happy requires honesty, sometimes what you need is patience and maturing of thoughts that may first contain scary and undesirable elements, sharing of which only causes more unneeded confusion and grief.

[R. S. Martin]

thwm,

 

Thank you for that post. I really got the feeling that you meant exactly what you said. It hurt me very deeply. But I have learned the best way to handle that sort of thing is to either not respond at all and put it out of my mind, or to respond politely. This time it paid off very well. Thank you!

 

I did note a lack of consistency between that sentence and the one following and I could not make sense of it. What you say now explains it very well.

 

I was touched by the last half of your post. That level of insight shows you are an intelligent man. Your girlfriend is a jewel. Is she taking you back?

 

I am not a doctor and don't know anything about medication beyond my own. All the same, I would suggest if you lose control often you might want to see a doctor before September. Misdirected violence could get you into big trouble and I would hate to see that.

[dr_funkenstein]

Female Fears

 

According to the things I've read, even "Charming Chicks" feel ordinary, and that is what counts. Ordinary girls have ordinary fears. The pains of divorce are normally feared by normal young people so they try to make sure it doesn't happen to them. Along comes this ordinary young man who is a potential mate for herself and father for her children. Just when she is beginning to trust that he really is happy with her, along about five months or so into the relationship, he tells her upfront that he often looks at other women and dreams of fondling them.

 

WHOA! Red Herring! GET OUT!

Therein lies the breakdown in logic that we men lament. You claim that it's logical for a woman to assume that because her mate admits to being attracted to other women that it's better for herself and her future children to leave the relationship.

 

This is based on a couple of really bad assumptions.

 

Firstly - if the woman in your story finds a man who says he is not attracted to other women, all she has done is trade in a man who is honest for a man who is a liar.

 

Secondly - to assume that just because a man admits to feelings of attraction to other women means that there is a danger of him acting on those instincts is a fallacy. Feeling attracted to many women is natural for men - and yet many of us prefer monogamy, choose monogamy and are able to remain monogamous for our whole lives. In fact, the man who admits that he looks at other women and experiences attraction should be considered a far more suitable mate than the one who lies about it. He admits to his natural urge that runs counter to the principle of monogamy - and a hazard known about is a hazard that can be managed.

 

The main problem with the woman in your story is that she has an unrealistic idea about men. We are not creatures of monogamy by instinct - none of us. Many - if not most - of us though, choose monogamy because of the immeasurable benefits it gives us, not least of which is the love and companionship we experience with our partner.

 

Another way for a woman to take it when her man tells her of feelings of attraction towards other women might be to think that of all the attractive women this man sees in the world, he has chosen ME above all others!

 

However your perspective tells me that perhaps as a man it's better to simply avoid the issue about feelings of attraction towards other women, as some of the wiser men in this thread have suggested.

[mwc]

Yes, my super-honesty probably is indeed a sign of insecurity. So what? I don't see any point in pointing that out, except hurting me. Can't honesty also be a way to fix that insecurity? I think it is, because i'm making sure those close to me accept me as I am. When i always tell everything i think might matter to me or them, they can trust me. I also want that they tell me everything that might matter to them or me, so i can trust them. I accept their imperfections that can't be helped and i want them to accept mine.

You're young. I know that sounds trite on my part but it's true and you'll learn that discretion is an important thing in life. Perhaps this will be one part of that lesson? As I pointed out, sharing every single thought that enters your head isn't the same as people accepting you for who you are. I know from personal experience that it does seem that way but it's not. Some thoughts simply don't need to be shared for you to be who you are. I thought I made that point in my last message. It would be the same as opening your house to everyone who wanted to see inside. Do you do that? If not, why not? Don't you want people to know who you are? All your neighbors and all the strangers need to know so fling open the door and just let them come it and go through your house, but not only that but your cabinets, files, bank and medical records and your computer...every single aspect of your life. You don't do this and so why let them into the most personal thing you possess which is your mind? It's the same exact thing even if you can't see it now.

 

I now understand the asking for permission thing. That shaked me most yesterday. I realized that's really what i've been doing when i demand an answer to the question whether she accepts that fault or not. I really should leave it to her, it's her responsibility to accept me as i am.

Now i wonder how many of other things that i've asked for are things that i really should ask permission for and how many are things i have natural right to and should just do if i want to.

I'm glad some of these things are starting to become clear for you. Sometimes what seems "right" and "honorable" your whole life turns out to be "wrong" in practice. Finding out the hard way isn't always pleasant.

 

Mwc,

Actually she has said to me that she wants me to see her as most perfect of all women in both body and mind. She says she sees me as the best of all men in all aspects. I call her angel because i don't want to lie. 'Angel' is also true: I sense more divinity in her than i ever sensed in religion and i worship her more than i ever worshipped jebus or sky daddy. Her mind is most brilliant and the most desireable to me, and i also desire her body, because she's very beautiful. Still, she's kinda small and my idea of the perfect womanly physique would maybe be a bit taller. Also, she has minor acne, and i can't honestly say that's part of my idea of perfection. I've once mentioned the fact that i don't like pimples (i, too, have acne) to her, and she refused to talk to me for a while after that... I was deeply hurt, too, but decided I won't give up on my principles on honesty.

This changes a few things. If she *wants* to be seen as perfect and so on then you've got problems coming your way. I would say it would be in your best interest to move along because if you fail at this task you will likely be punished (and so taking this new info in with what has been said I'd say you're seeing a little preview of what awaits you whenever you don't stay on her message). She punished you once for the "pimples" comment and now you're getting another lesson with this "thought crime" of yours.

 

mwc

[mwc]

Now for some news:

 

Yesterday evening this shit culminated by making me tell every single thought that passed my mind to my girlfriend. She just stopped listening and went carrying on her usual stuff while i somewhat continuously babbled to her. Then, after a hour or so, self-reflection hit me and i wondered (aloud, of course) whether she even understands anything of my train of thought. She replied "no, when i try to listen, something just starts buzzing inside my head". I then fell silent for a few minutes and asked if she would mind it if i shut up and contemplated alone and told things to her only when they've become clear to me. She said she wouldn't mind. I asked whether it would be dishonest do do so, and to that she also said no. I lost control and started crying then. Because of the great relief i felt.

 

A short analysis (and the moral of the story as i perceive it) follows:

For some reason, the last week my sense of the virtue of honesty has been bloating up and twisting somehow. Last couple of days i thought it was the single most important thing in any relationship: ultimate openness. I forgot about patience. Totally. Now, since six hours ago or so, i acknowledge that while honesty is important, happiness is more important. Sometimes keeping happy requires honesty, sometimes what you need is patience and maturing of thoughts that may first contain scary and undesirable elements, sharing of which only causes more unneeded confusion and grief.

Why don't you go look up my old messages...from about two years ago? They'll show a guy who was in a world of shit that thought that openness and honesty would help the situation but instead just gave ammunition to the "enemy" who otherwise ignored him while he was pouring out his heart to her. You're required to take her "needs" as highly important but when you start talking you're told you're just rambling and you buy into that lie since you're emotional enough to not be entirely sure. You're not married or very invested in this relationship. Run away! And I mean that literally. It WILL get worse and her double-standards will allow her to get away with things that you most certainly will not but your "code of honor" will bite you so hard on the ass that you WILL forgive her for it over and over again. So, if what you're telling me here is all the info (as opposed to just more little snippets) then just tell this smart, cute but not quite perfect gal (which sounds so familiar to me), that it's been nice but you've got to be going now.

 

Then find another person and try to keep your thoughts in your head where they belong.

 

mwc

[ToHellWithMe]

Thanks again for the replies!

 

Your girlfriend is a jewel. Is she taking you back?

She never quite left me, she just threw that idea on the table.

A jewel she is!)) A child genius but nowadays depressed. I'm going to help her fix that.

I am not a doctor and don't know anything about medication beyond my own. All the same, I would suggest if you lose control often you might want to see a doctor before September. Misdirected violence could get you into big trouble and I would hate to see that.

I'm totally opposed to abuse of power. I don't intend to hit even walls when in presence of or especially if talking to somebody physically weaker, because that could be seen as intimidation. But yes, if i'll break that rule of mine, i'll definitely hurry up.

 

I would say it would be in your best interest to move along

My best interest still is she.

So, if what you're telling me here is all the info (as opposed to just more little snippets) then just tell this smart, cute but not quite perfect gal (which sounds so familiar to me), that it's been nice but you've got to be going now.

 

Then find another person and try to keep your thoughts in your head where they belong.

I'm not leaving her. I don't even want to leave her. I'm just going to change my attitude totally. I'm going to prepare myself mentally against all that kind of unfairness that i've faced before, and refuse to accept it.

 

She's young, too, (17), and her ideals are probably more unrealistic than mine. I won't leave her. She may leave me if she cannot stand me as i am. If it comes to that i will tell her i've not left her and that i still love her. If her love for me hasn't faded away she'll think about things.