F*ck! I Still Believe In Some Of It?!

[mwc]

I'm not leaving her. I don't even want to leave her. I'm just going to change my attitude totally. I'm going to prepare myself mentally against all that kind of unfairness that i've faced before, and refuse to accept it.

 

She's young, too, (17), and her ideals are probably more unrealistic than mine. I won't leave her. She may leave me if she cannot stand me as i am. If it comes to that i will tell her i've not left her and that i still love her. If her love for me hasn't faded away she'll think about things.

Egad. She's not just young, she's a child. I'm not talking about what legal ages might be here or there or anything like that but she's just plain immature. No wonder she wants to be on a pedestal and the like.

 

This is really just too much. Are you even reading what you're writing here? You, a supposedly grown man, are telling me that you will changing your attitude entirely, for a child, so that this child will accept you, a grown man and won't leave him. What's wrong with this picture? Hell, being a man aside. Being older aside. You've said you wanted her to accept you for you and now you're saying that you are going to change so she'll accept you. So which is it? Are you going to put up yet another wall, another mental block, to try to make some fantasy relationship work or are you going to really be YOU and try that course of action?

 

I'm not sure what to make of you. You're letting a 17 year old girl call the shots in your life. She disapproves of what you think? Well, no problem. You'll just "change" that. Presto. You'll now just think "approved" thoughts. What a great relationship. Now what happens when you weren't "thinking" anything "wrong" but she simply decides you were because when you were out you happened to be looking in the wrong place at the wrong time and someone "better" than her was in that general direction? You're already guilty of "thought crimes" so you must have been doing something wrong. So, it sounds like, to keep the peace, you'll do whatever she demands after taking her "punishment" because you can't risk "losing" her perverted "love."

 

Again, I really have to question why you'd want to be in a relationship with someone who is just a child. She needs time to mature.

 

mwc

[Grandpa Harley]

I've been with Grandma Harley since forever (we met in when we were both 19, and have been an item since), and I've never had trouble with looking... touching would result in me being handed the soggy end of the ripped off member, but those are the ground rules, and I don't feel deprived.

 

Thing is, hitting one's head against someone else's neuroses is pretty difficult at times, and I know neuroses better than most.

 

BTW

 

"Still, what Jesus said about adultery by just looking... was bible perhaps partially written by women?!"

 

Unlikely. It's more along the Islamic lines of looking with lust on someone else's (woman) property. The line is possibly a later interpolation, along with stuff about fasting. It's more Pauline than early sayings gospels fodder, although it may (in Aramaic) be an imprecation toward something like the Buddhist 'Right Thought'. As a side bar, a lot of the actual sayings of Jesus, if you look at them with Arab eyes, and ignore the theology, is not a 1000 miles from what the Buddha taught. In fact in terms of man's relationship to the Cosmos, there are parallel readings of the Aramaic that read much like the Buddha's comments on interconnectedness and dependent arising... A leaf depends on a tree the depends on soil, sun, water, and air, that depends on the configuration of our solar system that depends on the death of the right type of stars that... all the way back to whatever was at the beginning, if that means anything...

[Grandpa Harley]

On topic... at 17 she needs to get over herself.

[Vigile]

I agree with MWC here. She's just 17. She isn't supposed to be dealing with serious relationship drama. She's supposed to be out having fun and discovering who she is. She's supposed to be out testing the water, gaining new experiences, deciding where to go to college. You are fretting over this stuff like it's related to a committed long term relationship. You guys are both too young for this stuff and she much much more so than you. Lighten up on both yourself and her.

[ToHellWithMe]

mwc,

 

Nono, you got me wrong. By attitude change i mean that my new princible will be that i won't try to suppress my thoughts and that she has to accept that as only fair. I definitely don't mean that i'm going to try and change my natural feelings.

 

It's all just snippets, always. I can't explain my whole life here. I can expand on things that are unclear, but that's all.

 

Yeah, she's only 17, so not all aspects of her thinking are very mature. However, i don't think i would call her love 'perverted'. In some way she might think she lives in a rosy world of princes and princesses, but 'perversion' is not a word i would use to describe love in that world. Instead of that, maybe 'wishful thinking'.

 

Also, she's not child in many ways. Physically she's been a woman for a few years now and has her own sexual needs. She's smarter than most of my friends and she can discuss my parents' businesses with me, and when i convey what we talked, they get new ideas from her (she and my parents haven't really met properly yet). It's just that despite her smartness, not all of her thinking develops faster than usual. On the contrary it seems to me that because of her quick wits, she has been able to do well enough without new patterns of thinking, and because of that she hasn't developed them, yet.

 

I don't think she should be mature in everything before i can develop a relationship with her. Besides, her mother has already left her once for a while, but now houses her again, and is waiting til she's 18 so she can drive her away from home. I'm also the only legal adult that cares about her. I don't want to leave her. She needs me.

 

Btw, now get what you mean with that open-house example. My neighbours should accept me even if what happens inside my house is not perfectly plain for them to see.

[ToHellWithMe]

Vigile, she has few friends and wants to meet them only rarely. She feels none of them really cares about her. And she's certain that those who did care, now have deserted her.

 

She doesn't go out, she fears places where there's a lot of people she doesn't know. Because of that, when she was ten, she didn't go out of her room in a year. Her mom didn't get it. She herself now realizes that it was a sign of serious mental problems. I'm not sure whether her mom really does even now. She's not the brightest mom i've met. It's not college she should worry about. She finished her junior high last month. She's not retarded. When she did do something, she got the best grades of her class, but most of the time she didn't care and didn't get up in the morning to go to school. So, she's now finally passed junior high, with excellent grades, but taking five years.

 

Like i said, she needs me. She has been too difficult for most people to understand. She's definitely not understood by teachers and other pupils that are couple of years younger than her in school.

[mwc]

Nono, you got me wrong. By attitude change i mean that my new princible will be that i won't try to suppress my thoughts and that she has to accept that as only fair. I definitely don't mean that i'm going to try and change my natural feelings.

Okay, so if I'm now reading this correctly she needs to basically just grow up emotionally and accept the situation as-is. And if she can't/won't?

 

It's all just snippets, always. I can't explain my whole life here. I can expand on things that are unclear, but that's all.

Fair enough. It just seems that some key elements weren't revealed is all.

 

Yeah, she's only 17, so not all aspects of her thinking are very mature. However, i don't think i would call her love 'perverted'. In some way she might think she lives in a rosy world of princes and princesses, but 'perversion' is not a word i would use to describe love in that world. Instead of that, maybe 'wishful thinking'.

Perverted means different things to different people and usually takes on a sexual overtone. But as you describe it, it is "perverted," as it is not healthy. She isn't seeing reality if this is accurate at all. This isn't a good basis upon which to build a relationship. Just as you putting her on a pedestal, intentionally or not, is also not a good idea, what happens when she realizes you aren't a "prince" and she isn't living in a "fairyland?" Reality can be cruel. It's better to establish those facts now instead of having them crash into both of your lives later.

 

Also, she's not child in many ways. Physically she's been a woman for a few years now and has her own sexual needs. She's smarter than most of my friends and she can discuss my parents' businesses with me, and when i convey what we talked, they get new ideas from her (she and my parents haven't really met properly yet). It's just that despite her smartness, not all of her thinking develops faster than usual. On the contrary it seems to me that because of her quick wits, she has been able to do well enough without new patterns of thinking, and because of that she hasn't developed them, yet.

Intelligence and the ability to have intercourse has nothing to do with maturity. Sadly, your inability to understand this may do her great harm...I really hope I am wrong about this.

 

I don't think she should be mature in everything before i can develop a relationship with her. Besides, her mother has already left her once for a while, but now houses her again, and is waiting til she's 18 so she can drive her away from home. I'm also the only legal adult that cares about her. I don't want to leave her. She needs me.

Why shouldn't she be mature before getting into a relationship with you? What makes a relationship with you so special that she should not be given the opportunity to "grow up" that (I'm assuming) you, and others, were given? Isn't that selfish on your part? Is this a control issue? You're immature yourself and someone on your own (supposed) level intimidates you so finding someone you can "mold" seems a better course of action?

 

Also, the moment she hits 18 (at least where I'm from) she's a legal adult and she'll have to care about herself. She needs herself. Let's say your "plan" works out. Now you're hit by a bus and die. She's immature and has no clue since she "had you." Now what? I suppose you're going to help train her to be independent while, at the same time, work on making her dependent in this strange "she needs me" scenario you've got in your head. Obviously, if she gets a good job and becomes a strong individual you will become threatened because she won't need you anymore so that can't be allowed to happen. I guess she can only be allowed to get only so successful/independent that she can't stray, but if she tries, you'll be there to help pick up the pieces. Seems like a good "plan." Tell you what though. Teach her not to need you at all (get her a job, her own place which means you two aren't always at the same place, etc.), and if she actually sticks around, then maybe she actually likes you. Right now it sounds like she just needs an escape plan and you're it. You could be on fire and it still sounds like you're better than old mom. Is that really "love?" Maybe by modern terms but not when I was growing up.

 

Btw, now get what you mean with that open-house example. My neighbours should accept me even if what happens inside my house is not perfectly plain for them to see.

Well, I'm glad some of this is sinking in because I don't have much more of this left in me.

 

mwc

[Vigile]

ToHellWithMe,

 

I'm just trying to get this straight. Are you in a relationship with this girl or just her friend? She just finished Jr. High? Some things just don't add up here. Or if they do, they raise some serious red flags.

[ToHellWithMe]

Okay, so if I'm now reading this correctly she needs to basically just grow up emotionally and accept the situation as-is. And if she can't/won't?

Those thoughts are not new to me. If she can't, i'll be very, very sad. So sad i already sometimes fear whether i will be able to get over it.

If she won't, she won't be able to keep me. It's that simple. It's her will to stay with me against her will to not change her thinking. In that case, it's really her choice. I really hope this will be the case should our paths separate eventually.

 

Fair enough. It just seems that some key elements weren't revealed is all.

Yeah, sorry. I didn't feel the same level of need for honesty toward you as i felt toward my girlfriend, so i didn't tell everything but just what i felt important then. It's the reader's responsibility to point out that what i told seems to miss something crucial.

 

Perverted means different things to different people and usually takes on a sexual overtone.

Why did you say 'perverted', then? To me it seems the sexual overtone doesn't bother you at all. On the contrary, you seem to find it very relevant.

 

Intelligence and the ability to have intercourse has nothing to do with maturity. Sadly, your inability to understand this may do her great harm...I really hope I am wrong about this.

Do you find it irrelevant that i've been very willing to have sexual intercourse since i was 13. I don't. Also, my gf matured earlier than i did. She told me how she was bullied about her breasts on fifth grade.

 

 

Also, the moment she hits 18 (at least where I'm from) she's a legal adult and she'll have to care about herself.

You present me the problem of any caretaker. "What if something happens to me." You're correct, i have to think about that. And i have already thought about that a little bit. Not acted much on it, yet, though. I think i might ask my best friend to house and feed her should something happen to me and she have no place to go. That's not really a likely scenario, with Finnish welfare system, so i'm not taking it too seriously. It IS possible, though, that my girlfriend will fail to use the welfare system because of her unwavering principles, so it's not completely irrelevant to think about this.

 

When she becomes independent, i'm happy. From that point on she doesn't have to rely on me in anything crucial to her most basic needs (like eating and having a dry, warm place to sleep in) but can develop our relationship from a completely equal ground. I'm trying to make it so as if that ground existed already. I've promised she can come and live in my place, regardless of whether she's angry at me or i at her. The problem is she doesn't take that promise as i mean it. She feels she has to entertain the one who keeps her alive.

 

Tell you what though. Teach her not to need you at all (get her a job, her own place which means you two aren't always at the same place, etc.), and if she actually sticks around, then maybe she actually likes you.

Yes, this is exactly the principle i'm acting on. I intend to help her with learning anything i've already learned. Be it school, be it human relationships. I can't force that on her, though.

 

If, in the end it turns out she's just been using me without any deep feelings, it would crush me. That would be unfortunate for me, yes... Thing is, i care as much for her as i care for myself.

[ToHellWithMe]

Vigile,

Yes. I'm in full romantic relationship with this girl. She's 17, just finished jr. high. I'm 22 and in university. There. If you want to place red flags, go ahead. I'm talking about the same thing with mwc now, so you might want to read my most recent couple of posts.

[Vigile]

Ok, no problem. This isn't my business. The red flags would worry me if I were your dad, but since I'm not no worries mate. I'll let you and MWC work through whatever it is you are working through.

[ToHellWithMe]

Well, too bad you're not my dad. You leave me interested.

For what it matters, my dad indeed does know about my relationship. As does my mom. As does my gf's mom and dad (who's an alcoholic living rather far away, so he doesn't matter).

[R. S. Martin]

However your perspective tells me that perhaps as a man it's better to simply avoid the issue about feelings of attraction towards other women, as some of the wiser men in this thread have suggested.

 

That was the purpose of my story--to help the men see how things may look from the female perspective. I've never been married, not even had a boyfriend, so I don't know how the women really feel. That story is based on stories I've read. One or two of the men on this thread said they can talk to their wives about feelings of attraction to other women and that the women express the same kind of attraction to other men, so it seems the more mature and secure men and women have no problem with it.

 

This has been an educational thread for me.

[Grandpa Harley]

In the UK 17 to 22 isn't regarded as 'sordid'... 17 to 42 would be... but our age of consent is 16.

[ToHellWithMe]

Age doesn't matter. Except in court room. What really matters is consent. About this i'm quite firm. I have to be, many like to take jabs at our age difference.

[mwc]

Those thoughts are not new to me. If she can't, i'll be very, very sad. So sad i already sometimes fear whether i will be able to get over it.

If she won't, she won't be able to keep me. It's that simple. It's her will to stay with me against her will to not change her thinking. In that case, it's really her choice. I really hope this will be the case should our paths separate eventually.

So, you'll just keep saying whatever and expect her to deal with it? You're not going to learn any discretion? She's the one that has to filter your thoughts for you? Do you have a disorder of some kind? At least I could find a little sympathy for you if you did (and you've made her aware of it so that she was in this relationship fully informed).

 

Yeah, sorry. I didn't feel the same level of need for honesty toward you as i felt toward my girlfriend, so i didn't tell everything but just what i felt important then. It's the reader's responsibility to point out that what i told seems to miss something crucial.

So you do have the ability to apply discretion? Would you say you lied to me? I notice you used the word "honesty" which implies a lack of truth but I feel you don't mean that.

 

Why did you say 'perverted', then? To me it seems the sexual overtone doesn't bother you at all. On the contrary, you seem to find it very relevant.

I only introduced the relationship to the sexual aspect of the word after your reply. It was because I noticed that you seemed to think I was using it in that fashion that I made the comment after the fact. There was no sexual overtone at all in my original statement. You could substitute "twisted" and the meaning would remain approximately the same. What I was essentially trying to say was her immaturity was possibly causing her to have a warped sense of what love in this type of relationship should be like. Not that she was some sort of sexual deviant (I neither know nor care to know).

 

Do you find it irrelevant that i've been very willing to have sexual intercourse since i was 13. I don't. Also, my gf matured earlier than i did. She told me how she was bullied about her breasts on fifth grade.

Actually I would find these things relevant but we're heading quite a ways away from the original topic and I think finding someone who is a professional to deal with these problems would be a much better idea. I've seen a number of things that are "red flags" and I'm not simply talking the physical age difference since that is something that is a cultural issue more than anything.

 

You present me the problem of any caretaker.

You put yourself in that role when you told me that she needed you. I'm sure you meant emotionally but that carries with it so much more. It also means that you need to be on firm footing emotionally and, it seems, that you have some issues yourself (this thinking is as bad as doing hangup that started this all off). If the health care system where you at supports it you might want to talk to a professional about this since I'm sure they can offer much more insight than I. However, as I said, if you truly want to be someone that is reliable then you need to be emotionally sound because two "broken" people will never be able to "fix" each other. Not ever.

 

I've promised she can come and live in my place, regardless of whether she's angry at me or i at her. The problem is she doesn't take that promise as i mean it. She feels she has to entertain the one who keeps her alive.

Inviting the ex-GF over to live with you is just a plain bad idea. I know it sounds like the right thing to do from a humanitarian stand point (and it might be) but it's a bad idea. The rest of what you say adds up to just more red flags.

 

Yes, this is exactly the principle i'm acting on. I intend to help her with learning anything i've already learned. Be it school, be it human relationships. I can't force that on her, though.

Are you her boyfriend or her mentor? You're one or the other...not both.

 

mwc

[ToHellWithMe]

Nono, you got me wrong. By attitude change i mean that my new princible will be that i won't try to suppress my thoughts and that she has to accept that as only fair. I definitely don't mean that i'm going to try and change my natural feelings.

In post 30 with this i meant that i won't suppress my thoughts or feelings that occur when i see anyone i find beautiful. I didn't mean that i would utter all of those feelings out verbally.

[Luke Wolf]

I don't mean to be a dick, but I am guessing your girlfriend is full of shit. I'll bet she has looked at few guys and thought sexual thoughts about it.

There is nothing wrong with that though. Our brains and bodies are wired for sex. Too not have sexual desires or thoughts is actually considered a physcological disorder.

 

As far as morals and ethics go, everyone has to find what works for them, without going insane. I personally would rather die than live a life based on Christian morals and ethics. I am going to drink, smoke, use drugs, swear, fuck, and I'll be damned if I forgive everyone that has wronged me, and I turn the other cheeck to everyone.

 

My own golden rule, is be your own fucking self.