Former Follier Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 I've been thinking quite a bit lately about my lack of belief and, if asked by a Christian, what I could point to as my main "stumbling block", so zu sagen. If I were to whittle it all down, strip away all of the coincidental inaccuracies, semantic arguments and idiosyncracies in the Bible, I would be forced to point to the very implausibility of God (YHWH) as portrayed in His own "inspired and infallible" Word. Here's the thing, God cannot be omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent (even to include the implied attribute of omnibenevolence) and allow the world to exist in the condition that it is currently in. It logically follows to assume that God in his infinite perfection and wisdom would have no need for corrections as corrections are made to exemplify the making right of mistakes. God's perfection disallows His making mistakes. Consider this (imperfect) analogy: The history and future of mankind can be likened to boats. A God-guided creation would be far more efficient than a speedboat with twin engines that was capable of keeping a straight course with no need for adjustment. A creation (or evolution) without the direction interaction of God would be more akin to a canoe that needs constant effort and adjustment, paddle mightily on the starboard side and then correct on the other to keep a relatively straight heading. Let me wrap my analogy up. Had God allowed his new creations, Adam and Eve, the ability to sin and thus fall along with all future generations, His perfection would at the very least allow for a once-for-all salvation immediately after the act of the fall. As it was, God required burnt offerings, sacrifices and abject humiliation before Him only to be followed 4,000 years later (depending on which creationistic views are held) by the giving of His son as the atonement for sin. Why would God need to "update" or "upgrade" the means by which humans could attain salvation? Did he make such a poor decision after the original sin that he felt the need to revamp his salvation plan? If we were to look at humanity on a broader scale, God has supposedly "paddled mightily" against the waves of human progress and regress to effect small-scale (and in some cases, large-scale) changes but they are essentially met by the same outcome: a morally corrupt creation that has no time or need for God. He allowed his people to defeat entire nations via indirect intervention. He destroyed an entire city because of its wickedness via direct intervention. He even went so far as to kill ever human on Earth except for one morally upright family. If we are to believe that the God of Christians is perfect, why the need for all of the corrections? Food for thought: Why are there no longer natural or even supernatural forces that affect our world that God could take credit for? It seems as if He tired of his playthings immediately after effectively committing suicide on the cross for us. **These are just my ramblings. Don't feel obligated to reply.** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 That's the big thing that proves no such being as the Abrahamic deity can exist. A god with the attributes of the god of the Wholly Babble simply wouldn't have made a world like this one, a dog-eat-dog survival of the fittest extravaganza. He wouldn't have let Lucifer rebel in the first place or would've eradicated him at the very least, so he could not lead us astray and cause millions to burn in Hell for all time. Or, he would've made the message of salvation easy to understand and live by, and able to be understood by all people in all times and places, not entrusting it to the fallible vehicle of human language. The problems are legion, and virtually every fact of the universe as well as Xianity's own mythology proves that its god cannot possibly exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnceConvinced Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 Some great thoughts there Former Follier and some good points. Let me wrap my analogy up. Had God allowed his new creations, Adam and Eve, the ability to sin and thus fall along with all future generations, His perfection would at the very least allow for a once-for-all salvation immediately after the act of the fall. As it was, God required burnt offerings, sacrifices and abject humiliation before Him only to be followed 4,000 years later (depending on which creationistic views are held) by the giving of His son as the atonement for sin. Why would God need to "update" or "upgrade" the means by which humans could attain salvation? Did he make such a poor decision after the original sin that he felt the need to revamp his salvation plan? Yes, that is a good point, which Christians don't seem to consider. It also begs the question of why Christian's believe the quote "God is the same yesterday, today and forever", when he radically changed his system of atonement. In fact he changed his ways of doing things completely. And of course that brings us to the questions you are implying. Does it mean the old system didn't work? Wasn't God's plan good enough to keep in place? If we were to look at humanity on a broader scale, God has supposedly "paddled mightily" against the waves of human progress and regress to effect small-scale (and in some cases, large-scale) changes but they are essentially met by the same outcome: a morally corrupt creation that has no time or need for God. He allowed his people to defeat entire nations via indirect intervention. He destroyed an entire city because of its wickedness via direct intervention. He even went so far as to kill ever human on Earth except for one morally upright family. A thought occurred to me here. God is so willing to destroy to sort out man's problems, but for some reason he isn't willing to actually try any non-violent methods. Another reason to question how he can be all powerful. Food for thought: Why are there no longer natural or even supernatural forces that affect our world that God could take credit for? It seems as if He tired of his playthings immediately after effectively committing suicide on the cross for us. Yep. God for some reason gave up that approach, even though it would result in millions believing in him. Funny how God changes and doesn't remain the same yesterday, today and forever, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Follier Posted July 18, 2007 Author Share Posted July 18, 2007 That's the big thing that proves no such being as the Abrahamic deity can exist. A god with the attributes of the god of the Wholly Babble simply wouldn't have made a world like this one, a dog-eat-dog survival of the fittest extravaganza... That's my position as well. You would assume that if a supreme being not only oversaw but interacted in the day-to-day lives of anyone or anything wouldn't the scales be tipped more in favor of order and less in favor of chaos? I suppose Christians could just attribute that to The Fall. Because that makes sense, right? When Adam and Eve disobeyed, there was something that changed within them genetically that would cause them to physically die, be embarrassed by their nudity and furthermore cause all other animals throughout the world to die. Hmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Follier Posted July 18, 2007 Author Share Posted July 18, 2007 Yes, that is a good point, which Christians don't seem to consider. It also begs the question of why Christian's believe the quote "God is the same yesterday, today and forever", when he radically changed his system of atonement. That's great! I never even thought of the "...same yesterday, today and forever" claim that most Christians make. Remember, I've been out of Christianity for somewhere around seven years and am gradually losing the ability to think like them. How can anyone claim God's eternality when he has clearly changed throughout the Bible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbobrob Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 The problem that the Christians have is that they are trying to make a regionally created god into a universal concept. As a god that oversees one tribe of people, all its killing and separtist rules make sense, it is there for its chosen people, and no other. Once it is elevated above its original design to a universal deity, it runs into lots of problems making itself acceptable based on its previous exclusive stance. The Christians, through the initial efforts of Paul, try to make the leap to universal, but they kept the tribe mentality by making the division not racial or cultural, but those who are "saved" and those who are not. It is still a tribal religion, being played out on a much grander scale. And anyone who does not adhere to the tribal rules are considered enemies of the tribe. But, unlike tribal days, those marked as enemies can not run away to escape, because of the universal reach. Even death is not an escape, because they have made that a place of tribal warfare too. A true universal god can not afford to be tribal in mentaility. It would see all divisons as illusions within the confines of the entire universe. Exactly how the laws of nature work. (sometimes it amazes me where I go when I let my brain flow) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 If we're just tossing things out there to ponder then maybe this is a good place to put this since it sort of ties in with the character of god and all. These verses from Genesis: 9:1 And God gave his blessing to Noah and his sons, and said, Be fertile, and have increase, and make the earth full.... 24 And, awaking from his wine, Noah saw what his youngest son had done to him, and he said, 25 Cursed be Canaan; let him be a servant of servants to his brothers. 26 And he said, Praise to the Lord, the God of Shem; let Canaan be his servant. 27 May God make Japheth great, and let his living-place be in the tents of Shem, and let Canaan be his servant. Noah does the cursing and god goes along with it but just before that old god seems to be wishing them all well. So I guess Noah cursed his grandson since his son was blessed and god just went along with that? What a weak set of ethics not to mention poor leadership skills. Obviously, the whole flood story points out a lot of shortcomings but this just seems odd that this curse is given by a (hung over) human and passively gone along with by the most powerful being anywhere. I wonder if I can get drunk and curse people (and have it supernaturally stick that is )? mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 Food for thought: Why are there no longer natural or even supernatural forces that affect our world that God could take credit for? It seems as if He tired of his playthings immediately after effectively committing suicide on the cross for us. It looks like god takes less and less of a direct hand to the goings on of the world from the OT through the end of the NT. To me it looks like the writers as well as the audience was/were becoming more and more incredulous, and as information and critical thinking increased, so too did god's need to be more "subtle". Of course, christians I've talked to would say the reality is that god was trying to give us more freedom as we 'grew' as a species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kingdom_of_Peas Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 A thought occurred to me here. God is so willing to destroy to sort out man's problems, but for some reason he isn't willing to actually try any non-violent methods. Another reason to question how he can be all powerful. Long before I gave any great thought to the inconsistencies in the bible I was aware of the violence in it, and I always wondered why any all powerful and benevolent being would consistently choose violence to solve problems - that's what man does, not what a benevolent god would do. I always go back to pharaoh and the turning of his heart... why harden it when it could be softened instead? There's so much violence in the book... it seems that the two things god likes most are a sharp blade (or large rocks) and the smell of blood (especially when it's burning). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 I always go back to pharaoh and the turning of his heart... why harden it when it could be softened instead? This one's answered in the text. So his wonders would be magnified in the land of course. Haven't you ever noticed how those Egyptians just couldn't shut up about the god of the Hebrews after he did this? It's written all over the land of Egypt after all. You can't hardly turn around with some monument to the great god of Israel...Erm...never mind. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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