The Unforgivable Sin

[Taphophilia]

I was thinking about the unforgivable sin. The sin is so heinous that it warrants any hope of salvation by the Christain God and null and voids any past, present, and future hope of said salvation. If you commit this horrible act, you are damned for all eternity with no hope of redemption.

 

It is not murder of the innocents, genocide, child molestation, or even brutal torture. You can commit an act that would make all humans (but not the Christian god) recoil in horror, still receive forgivness and spend eternity in heaven. You can murder children and babies, brutalize and torture them even and god will forgive you, all you have to is repent. No sin is too severe in nature for god to forgive. Except one.

 

The one thing humans cannot do, the one sin that causes god to recoil in horror so much so he won't forgive it, the only sin that warrants eternal censequence of which there is no hope, is to deny the Holy Spirit.

[HuaiDan]

Well that's cool. "No sense debating the existence of god now is there? I'm going to hell anyway."

[OnceConvinced]

It's his ego problem, you see?

 

(Yep, it's sickening alright. Hard to believe I once thought that was reasonable.... actually no I didn't. I always thought it was screwed up, I just accepted it and tried to get beyond it. That's all you can really do as a Christian.... and of course try to justify it with a whole lot of crap.

[michie_s]

It's his ego problem, you see?

 

(Yep, it's sickening alright. Hard to believe I once thought that was reasonable.... actually no I didn't. I always thought it was screwed up, I just accepted it and tried to get beyond it. That's all you can really do as a Christian.... and of course try to justify it with a whole lot of crap.

 

I agree Once, in order to keep believing you have to overlook or justify a lot of horrible things. I think I honestly and wholeheartedly believed that the christian god was just in handing out punishment to the heathen unbelievers, it did not even prick my conscience in the beginning because I wanted to be saved. Later when I started questioning all of the atrocities in the buybull or those committed in the name of christianity it was too much to overlook or turn away from.

 

Now I commit the unpardonable sin everyday...and I will continue to do so, because it's better than trying to rationalize why a supposed loving god is such a heartless tyrant. It sickens me to think that I once professed to love it/him/them.

 

Michie

[Luke Wolf]

Yup. I have made many Christians panick when I tell them if there Bible is true, then I will tell God:

You egotistical FUCK! You have no reason to punish people forever for what we did for a very short period of time. You fucking big head won't allow you to let people into heaven who didn't follow you. GUESS WHAT FUCKHEAD! I'm more forgiving than you! I believe in second, and sometimes third chances. You give us ONE!

FUCK YOU!

When you get your head out of your own ass, which might take a very long time since we all know just how far up there it is, you can take your "salvation" and shove it up your ass sideways."

I get many stars, jaws dropped, stutters and jibberish words being uttered from that.

[Mike D]

The one thing humans cannot do, the one sin that causes god to recoil in horror so much so he won't forgive it, the only sin that warrants eternal censequence of which there is no hope, is to deny the Holy Spirit.

Yet another absurdity in that big book of absurdities.

 

We're taught that god, jebus and the holy spirit are all one. And they're not. But their the same dude. Except when they aren't. So we can deny two of the dudes that are seperate but together, however if we deny the third ghostie dude who's also the other two dudes but not, then one of the other dudes of the same dude won't forgive us for denying that other dude who's the same dude but not.

 

Have I got it about right?

[Ouroboros]

Another of those contradicting ideas in the Bible. How can something be unforgivable if Jesus died to give everyone a salvation for every sin? In the end, God couldn't fix some things. It was out of his power. Omnipotence only reaches as far as God's pride.

[R. S. Martin]

The way I always made sense of it was that it was the spirit of the matter more than the actual person that was being rejected. And if we reject the desire to know god we will never know god. It's simple as that.

 

Somehow, I feel like I'm missing the entire concept here. I still can't bring myself to blaspheme the holy spirit. Nor do I really know why I would do it. If hell is real, and if my people are right about what god wants, then there is no need to blaspheme the holy spirit; I will go to hell no matter what. I have rejected the one true faith to follow my own lusts and desires (apparently that is what higher education is: selfish lusts and desires) and that is about all there is to it. And if they are not right but some other Christian group is right--my logic on that is: When we start eliminating certain Christian groups, where are we going to stop? How will we know we are eliminating the right group? How can we know that this one true church actually is the one true church?

 

Maybe this is more a Mennonite problem than a general Christian problem because there are very many different kinds of Mennonites and a large number of them live in this one community. And pretty much every single one of them is convinced that they are the one true church or at the very least considerably better than the others in some significant way that counts big time with god.

 

Sorry if this is off-topic. The holy spirit is just such a major part of christian life as it was taught to me that I am not sure how to separate the one true church issue from the blaspheming the holy spirit issue. If you reject all the promptings of the spirit, so they say, "My spirit will not always strive with man." That is in the bible and I have heard it many times. "Opportunity knocks once at the door." Seems if we neglect to heed its knocking we're toast.

 

My dad said that really is true. The church where he (and later I) grew up baptized young people once a year and it's believers or adult baptism based on confession of faith. While there is a pretty strict age group that is expected to be convicted of sin and therefore baptized, there are a few years variation (about ages 17-20). My dad says he felt prompted to ask for baptism one year but he was advised to wait another year. By the next year the prompting was no longer so strong. And this prompting or knocking is supposedly the Holy Spirit. So it seems there are a variety of ways of rejecting the Holy Spirit, depending on what you were taught.

 

Now if only this holy spirit were something other than a part of the human brain, it might well be worth checking out and making sure we've got it right.

[Kirangel]

I was thinking about the unforgivable sin. The sin is so heinous that it warrants any hope of salvation by the Christain God and null and voids any past, present, and future hope of said salvation. If you commit this horrible act, you are damned for all eternity with no hope of redemption.

 

It is not murder of the innocents, genocide, child molestation, or even brutal torture. You can commit an act that would make all humans (but not the Christian god) recoil in horror, still receive forgivness and spend eternity in heaven. You can murder children and babies, brutalize and torture them even and god will forgive you, all you have to is repent. No sin is too severe in nature for god to forgive. Except one.

 

The one thing humans cannot do, the one sin that causes god to recoil in horror so much so he won't forgive it, the only sin that warrants eternal censequence of which there is no hope, is to deny the Holy Spirit.

 

I was discussing the blasphemy challenge in a few of my religious groups a little while back. A lot of Christians were pretty appalled by it, I don't see the point of the challenge, it seems like a waist of time to me. Anyways, they got into this conversation about it and I think most of them said that it doesn't matter, they can still be forgiven for it if they asked. I don't get it though, I don't remember their reasoning but the bible seems pretty clear about it, it's unforgivable .

[essence]

The act is blasphemy, which is speaking against the HS [god]. Those who speak against the HS will not be found guiltless, and this in reference to taking the name of the Lord God in vain. This seen in strategy of loyalty to that God. The law is a Jewish precept, not a Gentile observance as Gentiles did not claim the God of Israel. (Unless they converted).

 

Taking the name, becoming the namesake of God identified the people of Israel. Those who were born in the house or those bought with money from any foreigner were to be circumcised. The tradition of Israel/Jewish people in their loyalty ruled as obedient compared to disobedient.

 

The definition of sin was transgression of law, and commandments of law was given only to the 12 tribes of Israel. So where there is no law there is no sin. One cannot be judged without law. Gentiles have no laws. Are you then a sinner?

 

The unpardonable sin is a Jewish concept and shown in treason, for speaking against the word of God [law] was showing oneself to be a traitor to Israel. The Jew was then condemned and his name blotted out of the book of life - no more considered as a citizen of Israel - he then became as though he had never been [born]. The death penalty then applied to the person committing blasphemy.

 

A Jew could speak against Jesus but not against the law of commandments - word of God.

[Guest BibleThumper]

IMO, that's just their way of scaring their mindraped members into not leaving the faith. The "Holy Spirit" is your conscience preaching to you what the church programs you into doing (attend church every sunday, pay tithing, fast, pray, etc). If you can see past all the propaganda, and refine those words a little, all you have left is "do what we say, or go to hell".

[Poonis]

I am interested in knowing exactly how blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is committed. I mean, what is the exact process? The bible doesn't say deny, or swear at, or whatever.

 

How does one actually physically blaspheme the holy ghost?

[Everglaze]

While I was a Christian, one of the many things that I knew deep down inside that eventually turned me away from the faith was the realization that not only was I not going to be forgiven for a sin like this, but also from not being baptized (full immersion). Everyone was saying something differently. It was impossible to keep up. What a strain.

[Grandpa Harley]

I have the guts of an idea for a short story (fantasy) that involves heaven being unable to take him, and hell not wanting him... during the battle of the fall, he's on the side of angels, he wins the battle for God, but in the process, he does something terrible...

[Garnet]

I've found that the no one really knows what blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is. I've heard:

 

1. Denying the Holy Spirit.

2. Cursing the Holy Spirit.

3. Unbelief.

4. Attributing an act of Jesus to evil.

 

This last one is what my church believed. In a way, it makes the most sense to me given the entire context of the chapter in Matthew.

 

Regardless, it's just another thing that shows the moral bankruptcy of the Christian position. JESUS DIED FOR YOUR SINS! YOU ARE SAVED! Well, except if you do this one thing....that no one knows for sure what it is....but really...YOU'RE SAVED!

[Vigile]

Unbelief would actually make sense. For as long as you are in the state of unbelief you can't be forgiven. Ala, the unforgivable sin. Mystery solved.

 

In my case I can no longer believe even if I wanted, thus I'm doomed. Good thing I have some nice company.

[Taphophilia]

I remember hearing a minister say to the congregation that no one there had committed the unpardonable sin, or they would be there, and they wouldn't be concerned or care if they had. He was right.

[מה טבו]

The unpardonable sin is a Jewish concept and shown in treason, for speaking against the word of God [law] was showing oneself to be a traitor to Israel.

 

Actually, that particular unpardonable sin is a Christian concept. The scripture is in the book of Matthew, not in the Tanakh.

 

Your definition of "unpardonable" is a bit different here, as you reference the death penalty. In ancient Israel, you got the death penalty for picking up firewood on Shabbat. There were a lot of capital crimes - they're not described as unpardonable in the Christian sense. What Christians refer to here is being condemned to eternal Hell - a concept which does not exist in Judaism (or, AFAIK, anywhere else outside of Christianity).

 

To a Jew, murder is more unforgivable than blasphemy. You can make atonement for sins against the Deity on Yom Kippur, but to atone for a crime against a human, you have to first seek that human's forgiveness. Since a dead person can't forgive you, there is no atonement for murder.

[LithaB]

I don't see the point of the challenge, it seems like a waist of time to me. Anyways, they got into this conversation about it and I think most of them said that it doesn't matter, they can still be forgiven for it if they asked. I don't get it though, I don't remember their reasoning but the bible seems pretty clear about it, it's unforgivable.

 

It seems that the religious folks have redefined the unforgivable sin by reinterpreting that bit of scripture. When I was growing up, I was told that no one really knew exactly what Jesus meant when he said that. But it seems that the bible scholars have figured it out since then:

 

This blasphemy has to do with someone accusing Jesus Christ of being demon-possessed instead of Spirit-filled. There are other ways to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, but this was "THE" unpardonable blasphemy. As a result, the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be duplicated today. Jesus Christ is not on earth. but seated at the right Hand of God. No one can witness Jesus Christ performing a miracle and then attribute that power to Satan instead of the Spirit.

 

from the Got Questions? website

 

So the challenge really is pointless, although it certainly did get Christians' attention.

[deepblue]

Two years ago I believe I reached the final point of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. It happened because I mixed porn with Bible reading and prayer. Sometimes when I read the Bible, I felt an impression on my conscience. But I would ignore it and go back to looking at porn. Eventually, I got so weak inside that I experienced a complete breakdown. It's hard to describe how it feels, but it felt like a very physical thing, and left a large void inside. I was catapulted into major suicidal depression, from which I am still trying to recover.

 

According to scripture I had blasphemed the Holy Spirit. It was the end result of a long process of internal weakening of conscience. I guess when your conscience blows, that's the end. You can't be saved because you will never feel any pang of conviction again. And, just as the preachers say, I feel no concern about it. I have no desire to read the Bible or pray ever again, and if I can help it, I will never set foot in a church for the rest of my life.

 

I think my experience goes to show that Christianity can end up screwing you up completely. A mixture of isolation from the world, temptation, self-loathing, unregulated internet access, and above all, Christian religion, proved to be a fatally toxic mix.

 

The question I have though is this: if I resisted the movings of the Holy Spirit to such a final degree, doesn't that make me stronger than God???

[Deva]

Two years ago I believe I reached the final point of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. It happened because I mixed porn with Bible reading and prayer.

 

I think my experience goes to show that Christianity can end up screwing you up completely. A mixture of isolation from the world, temptation, self-loathing, unregulated internet access, and above all, Christian religion, proved to be a fatally toxic mix.

 

The question I have though is this: if I resisted the movings of the Holy Spirit to such a final degree, doesn't that make me stronger than God???

 

franknhonest: You interpreted your own actions as the unpardonable sin. Please try to understand that there are many interpretations of that passage of scripture. I have never heard one which said that Jesus was talking about "mixing porn with Bible reading and prayer." What you describe is not the unpardonable sin, according to xianity. The whole notion of the unforgivable sin is contradictory to the rest of the xian message, which is that the death of Jesus paid for all sins. I don't buy any of it, but that is what it says.

 

Yes, Xianity can screw you up, if you let it.

 

Your last question shows you are moving in the right direction. Think it through and you will be able to answer it for yourself, which is much more valuable than anyone telling you.

[justin01]

Hi Frank,

 

This is Jasonwhatever. You and I had an incredibly similar experience. Mine was in Nov, 2005. It is amazing, in fact, at how similar our experiences are. I know EXACTLY what you mean when you say that you just broke down and felt a loss of consciousness. I too felt like a ton of bricks hit me. I felt completely empty and it manifested in a very physical way as well. I literally thought my spirit was slipping out of my body, just totally dead inside. An empty shell, that's how I felt exactly. Terror, dread, fear, anxiety, hysteria. I remember I would stare blankly for at times for what was probably hours. I felt a buzzing and tingling in my head. I felt just utterly crushed, lifeless, dead. I also equated it with blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, with losing the Holy Spirit. I had to quit my job because I couldn't function at work. I fully expected I was about to be stricked to death by God. At one point, I really thought I was going to just spontaneously combust from the wrath of God. I cannot explain to people enough the amount of absolute terror I was going through. There was a point where I was hallucinating a little. There was a pool of water in a parking lot and I thought it was a dog. Insanity. Fortunately, I'm still alive three years later. I went through periods of mostly calm since that very hard time. But every once in a while, the fear and torment comes back, to a lesser extent.