Messianic Prophecies

[Brother Jeff]

I found this long list of biblical prophecies separated by bible book a good while back. I was just looking through it again tonight, and I realized that it proves that Jesus is God! Hallelujah!

 

Um, no, not really... but it is interesting. Here's the link:

 

http://www.shalach.org/PropheciesTable/prophecieslst1.htm

 

Anybody have any thoughts on it?

 

Glory!

[mwc]

I've went through lists like these before. One from this list I like is this one:

 

The Messiah would successfully defeat Satan. Genesis 3:15b 1 John 3:8

 

Genesis 3:15b

 

15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

Okay. Snakes and people don't like each other. Quite the "prophecy."

 

But even better is the "fulfillment" (where I read past the one verse they want me to read):

1 John 3:8

 

8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.

 

9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

Ahhh...crap. You mean the devil is dealt with (what about the shit in Revelation?) and so xians are all literally perfect now? Nah, that can't be right. Satan is a roaring lion waiting to devour us and xians can't help but be tricked into sinning since no one is perfect...yet here John says xians are perfect in that they are sinless. I guess it's time to for some apologetics to magically explain this away.

 

mwc

[perianwalsh]

Here,I refer to this hebrew translated english Hebrew bible :http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0.htm (it's called tanach rit?)

 

The Messiah would be born of the "seed" of a woman.

Genesis 3:15a Luke 1:34-35

The Messiah would successfully defeat Satan.

Genesis 3:15b

1 John 3:8

The Messiah would suffer when redeeming man to God.

Genesis 3:15c

1 Peter 3:18

 

13 And the LORD God said unto the woman: 'What is this thou hast done?' And the woman said: 'The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.'

יד . 14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent: 'Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou from among all cattle, and from among all beasts of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; they shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise their heel.' {S}

ט} 16 Unto the woman He said: 'I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy travail; in pain thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.' {S}

 

It's they shall bruise thy heqad-they.THEY.If this sentences refers to him,it will be he not they.And does the snake bruise his heel?

 

I think this quote referes to the situation lo.

you can get ref:BE magazine

I dunno why,but how could they always do niptakking?

Could someone hepl[ me to do this?

 

Let's read the niv version about this

New International Version)

New International Version (NIV)

 

15 And I will put enmity

between you and the woman,

and between your offspring /seed[a] and hers;

he will crush/strike your head,

and you will strike his heel."

Strange!!aS i TYPE TRHOUGH here,I saw the difference.He and They!

 

KJV is more strange

Link

 

The Messiah would come from the lineage of Seth.

The Messiah would come from the lineage of Shem.

Genesis 9:26

Luke 3:23-36

The Messiah would come from the lineage of Abraham.

Genesis 12:3

Matthew 1:1

The Messiah would come from the lineage of Isaac.

Genesis 17:19

Luke 3:23-34

The Messiah would come from the lineage of Abraham.

Genesis 18:17-18a

Matthew 1:1

 

Bible:23 And Lamech said unto his wives: Adah and Zillah, hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech; for I have slain a man for wounding me, and a young man for bruising me;

כד 24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.

25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bore a son, and called his name Seth: 'for God hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel; for Cain slew him.'

26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enosh; then began men to call upon the name of the LORD. {S}

 

 

20Added yet this above all, that he shut up John in prison.

 

21Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,

 

22And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

 

23And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

 

24Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,

 

25Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,

 

26Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,

 

27Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,

 

28Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er

29Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,

 

30Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,

 

31Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,

 

32Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,

 

33Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,

 

34Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,

 

35Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,

 

36Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,

 

37Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,

 

38Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.[/i]

I havent give this a thought yet

 

The Messiah would be the redeemer for all nations.

Genesis 18:17-18b

 

13 And the LORD said unto Abraham: 'Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying: Shall I of a surety bear a child, who am oldי

14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD. At the set time I will return unto thee, when the season cometh round, and Sarah shall have a son.'

15 Then Sarah denied, saying: 'I laughed not'; for she was afraid. And He said: 'Nay; but thou didst laugh.'

16 And the men rose up from thence, and looked out toward Sodom; and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.

17 And the LORD said: 'Shall I hide from Abraham that which I am doingי

18seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him

19For I have known him, to the end that he may command his children and his household after him, that they may keep the way of the LORD, to do righteousness and justice; to the end that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which He hath spoken of him.'

20And the LORD said: 'Verily, the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and, verily, their sin is exceeding grievous.

21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto Me; and if not, I will know.'

 

 

children and household-this is about they ,not a HE

1And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

 

2And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

 

3And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.

 

4Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.

 

5And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.

 

6And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.

 

7And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?

 

8And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

 

9And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.

 

10And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

 

11And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

 

12And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

 

13And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

 

14And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

 

15And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,

 

16And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

 

17That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

 

18And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

 

19So Abraham returned unto his young men, and they rose up and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham dwelt at Beersheba.

 

20And it came to pass after these things, that it was told Abraham, saying, Behold, Milcah, she hath also born children unto thy brother Nahor;

The ram/lamb is offered-unless the apologist want to say that the ram is not equal to lamb(which i must say i dunno the difference between them)

And this is th KJV VERSION

Please add details if you knew more

[a skeptical believer]

The early Christian belief that Jesus fulfilled prophecy arose after and because of the belief that he was the promised messiah. This very important finding needs to be emphasized. The belief that Jesus was the messiah was the basis for the belief that he was the fulfillment of prophecy. It was not that people noticed that Jesus had fulfilled a series of prophecies and so concluded that he must be the messiah. The process worked the other way around. It was because Christians were convinced that Jesus was the messiah that they went searching through the scriptures to discover which prophecies he had fulfilled. The proclamation that Jesus fulfilled prophecy is a testimony to Christian faith, not a description of its origin.

 

Did Jesus Fulfill Prophecy? Probing Matthew's Gospel by Robert J. Miller

[Rhia]

Here's my easy answer to the whole thing: if the messiah is supposed to be on both sides (but especially his father's) a descendant of the house of David, Christ is therefore not the messiah; because if indeed the prophesy of the virgin birth had come to pass, then Christ would not have been of Joseph's blood - and therefore would not be the messiah.

 

However, the jewish messiah was supposed to be a prince, and the circumstances are just way too fucking screwy for me.

 

Also, the other problem is that the word used in the hebrew talking about the "virgin" is alma, not betulah. Alma is a nuance word that means a woman of a young age that was married and had a firstborn the "normal way" - that is, she was a virgin when she was married; and therefore her firstborn is her "virgin birth" because it's her first. It in NO WAY means a young woman who was engaged, not married and a virgin. It's simply implying a young married woman who was a virgin in her father's house.

 

Betulah (I'm hoping I'm spelling that right, it's been a few years since I took hebrew) on the other hand means virgin. It's a very young woman, unmarried, unengaged, who has not had sex, and the implication is that she's typically still living in the solitary protection of her father's house.

 

So what's the problem? Well, the original texts in Isaiah in hebrew mention the "virgin" who bears the messiah as being an Alma. Therefore, either Christ's mother really was impregnated by Joseph, or she was raped. 'Cause remember, one of the Torah rules is that if a woman is raped, and she screams out and no one comes to her aid, or if she screams out and someone does rescue her - there is no fault found - the only time that fault would have been found would have been if she had not said a word and was found; but anyway, her status would ultimately change from Betulah to Alma; and hence why Joseph may have been anxious to marry her.

 

The Jewish messiah's birth circumstances are NOT supposed to be a rape, it's supposed to be two of the lineage of David, legally married under Torah law, who consummate the marriage and have a son - end of story.

 

So either way, god-rape or man-rape, he can't be the messiah, because the lineage is not there - especially with a man-rape, seeing as at that time if she was just randomly accosted, and then the man was killed; there may not have been a way to tell what house his family had come from - especially if he was foreign.

 

So that's my theory, destroy it if you wish - but I go to a christian college, and I have had to take theo classes, and I've addressed that with all of mine so far - without dispute. They usually just end class and ask me later not to bring that up. Then again, they're not all exactly the smartest of their kind. So again, please pick it apart if you wish.

 

Sorry if this sounds like rambling, but I'm trying to finish this up at work before a scheduled power outage, and I didn't want to lose what I was saying.

[Luke Wolf]

Okay. Snakes and people don't like each other. Quite the "prophecy."

Hey, I love snakes.

 

 

Talk about alot of very vague, unspecific bullshit.

[Jubilant]

Another problem for Christian apologists and those who interpret the buybull literally is that nowhere in the entire Old Testament does it say that "Satan" is the snake/serpent in Genesis.

 

I think that Ed Babinski does an EXCELLENT job of debunking many so-called biblical prophecies.

 

Prophecy in the Bible

 

Ezekiel Prophecy of Tyre: Failed

 

Ed Babinski on Revelations

[perianwalsh]

I am still reading so I havent got any new leads here

and am I posting twice-at least it looks like it from my preview-it must be my computer error...

[perianwalsh]

I think we need to have a topic specifically devote to this prophecies

 

http://home.att.net/~fiddlerzvi/prophecies.html

Comment:Edward Babinski- i like his articles very much.The guys from debunkingchristianity are really doing a good job too.

[מה טבו]

Rhia, your objections are actually the same ones raised by Jews since the time of the first Christians. If you check out Jews for Judaism, Torah Atlanta, Outreach Judaism, or the handful of other Jewish counter-missionary groups, they point out a lot of that.

 

Anyone familiar with Judaism can be confident that Josh wasn't the Jewish messiah. In fact, the very concept of messiah was changed in Christianity.

 

The Hebrew "moshiach" (משיח) is more accurately "annointed one." Anyone in the Tanakh who was described as annointed is described as a "moshiach." David uses the term to describe Saul (1 Sam 24:6). In Judaism, there is no one moshiach, but there's supposed to be one who is basically the big daddy of them all. A fully human descendant of David who becomes a political ruler of Israel and ushers in a time of peace. No divinity. No atonement for sin. The Jewish concept of messiah is political. (Orthodox Jews take this very seriously and eagerly await the coming of this ruler. More liberal Jews do not.)

 

The early Christians had to deal with the fact that there was no way Josh fulfilled the qualifications for the Jewish messiah. He never became a ruler, and he died as a criminal. They did this in 2 ways. 1, they changed the concept from messiah to Christ. Instead of being a political leader who saved the nation of Israel from exile and international conflict, he becomes a spiritual leader who saves everybody from sin. 2, the second coming. When the reworked definition of messiah didn't fly, the Christians claimed Josh would fulfill those prophesies when he came again. (You know carpenters and contractors - they never finish the job the first time.)

 

The Jews still didn't buy it, and haven't bought it for 2 millennia. Christianity flourished among the nearby pagans though, picking up the story of virgin birth and a few pagan holidays along the way. And this is why we have the "war on Christmas" every year.

[perianwalsh]

this one is jewish-just like jews for jesus-hey...if you reach the home page,there's a few 'interesting' things over there.G...they are trying to attract the jews over.

Mah tovu:I didnt saw the torah atlanta link before,but I read jewsforjudaism.It helps me a lot.

 

The Messiah would come from the lineage of Boaz & Ruth.

So do king David,King Solomon,and a few of those whom being disowned to be the future king lines.It can means some others too,or those davidic lines who are still alive today.

 

The Messiah would be exalted by God with power and glory.

where's this verse, I cant find it.

 

The Messiah would come from the lineage of David

The Messiah would be the Son of God.

 

read this verse(extracted from hebrew translated bible,http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt08b07.htm)

He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever.14 I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son; if he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men;

2sam 7:14

 

I dont think jesus fulfill it.this verse,strikingly is human.if jesus is god as they claimed to be,he must be perfect,and never commit inquity.IT might mean Israel,it might mean a future messiah.

 

My own questions

1.bruising the head of snake-still cant understand that well

 

Feel free for more discussion

[מה טבו]

this one is jewish-just like jews for jesus-hey...if you reach the home page,there's a few 'interesting' things over there.G...they are trying to attract the jews over.

 

/* off topic ---

urge to kill.... rising.

I freaking loathe Jews for Jesus. They're a bunch of fucktarded evangelical Christians playing dress up with kippot and tallis. They held a campaign a few years ago in major cities all over the world called "Behold Your God." To which my response, and I'm sure the response of many other people was, "excuse me dipshits, but Josh is not my God, and you do not tell me who or what I believe in."

-- off topic */

 

2sam 7:14

 

I dont think jesus fulfill it.this verse,strikingly is human.if jesus is god as they claimed to be,he must be perfect,and never commit inquity.IT might mean Israel,it might mean a future messiah.

 

Most of these "proofs" are easily ripped to shreds just by reading the chapter that they're coming from. Take 2 Samuel Chapter 7. This is the story of David wanting to build the Temple. He gets told that he won't get to do it, but his son will, and all the good things that are going to happen to his son are described. This verse clearly refers to King Solomon, David's son.

 

This is an annoying habit of Christianity - to take the Bible as just a random hodgepodge of chapter-and-verse quotes. It's not. The Tanakh is stories. The whole chapter and verse thing was later added by Christian monks - the original books were just collections of stories. Check out http://bible.ort.org. You'll notice that each book of the Torah is divided into named chapters. While ort keeps the Christian numbering system for reference, the way that the Torah is actually read is story by story, no verses involved. This is like somebody breaking Moby Dick up into subchapters and verses by chapter, then quoting one line to make it look like whales could talk.

[Ahh!]

I'll add messiahtruth.com. Excellent site and Dr. Uri Yosef (on the forums) is an expert on just about every field you could need to be an expert in to disprove Jesus.

[מה טבו]

I'll add messiahtruth.com.

 

I can't believe I forgot that one! The JavaScript on the site is annoying as hell, but for information, it's one of the best.

 

/*added --

 

I'll be damned - they do exist. Atheists for Jesus.

 

*/

[perianwalsh]

those three sites are good.

atheist for jesus-i just say this is unique.[thought i havent finish read it yet.

i got a orthodox jews link,but i forgot were i put it.