My Username

[מה טבו]

I've gotten asked about it a few times. מה טבו is transliterated "Mah Tovu." It means "how good" or "How lovely" and is an excerpt from a verse said every week in synagogues all over the world: "Mah Tovu ohaleicha Yaakov, mishk'notecha Yisrael." The verse is translated "How goodly are your tents, O Jacob, your dwelling places, O Israel."

 

The choice of this name is actually about my own experience, not about Judaism or Zionism. When I approached Judaism, I was able to break the last holds of fundamentalist Christianity on my life, because I learned to approach scripture and deity in a completely different way. I finally learned how to take a nuanced, non-literalist view of the Tanakh, and an abstract, undefined, non-person-in-the-sky view of HaShem. To know that there were other ideas of divinity out there - that the solution was not binary (Christian or Atheist) - was liberating.

 

Before Judaism, I was an atheist for 10 years. I have no regrets from that time - I'm actually still quite proud of it, and I cherish what I learned from it. In the same way, I cherish what I've learned from Liberal Judaism as something beautiful - something tovu.

[Jun]

May I ask you then, so you still believe in a creator "God" that revealed himself to Moses and gave him the ten commandments?

[Taphophilia]

I do have an appreciation for liberal Judaism, well the little I know about it. How did you discover it?

[freeman]

When I started on the blog, I used my real name. However, everyone had a "name". For over twenty years, I lived life as a "Big Bang" deist. The creator was the big bang, nothing more. So I came out of the proverbial closet and renounced my christian heritage and was therefore a free man.

[מה טבו]

May I ask you then, so you still believe in a creator "God" that revealed himself to Moses and gave him the ten commandments?

 

Yes and no.

 

A deity, yes. An undefinable life force beyond nature, yet interacting (to some degree) with it.

 

A man in the sky who literally created the world in 6 days? No. Natural processes explain our present state quite well. I have no qualms with evolution by natural selection or the big bang. If science contradicts the Torah, and the science is sound, then it's necessary to change the way we look at the Torah. The Torah is metaphor. Science is observation. Science wins.

 

Who gave the ten commandments? Not quite. I don't believe in a literal encounter at Sinai. IMHO, the mitzvot are a framework for moral good, and one can choose to enter into that promise without believing that there was a literal meeting at Sinai. One can choose to live by these commands as a path to the sacred and a good way to live, but it's not a mandate. Judaism (from Orthodox to Reconstructionist) teaches that all people are "saved", regardless of whether they're Jewish or not. Nobody is doomed to eternal hell, but you can choose to become Jewish if you like.

 

The Tanakh is an important series of books, as it is an early history of people looking at the divine from the perspective of monotheism. But it was written by humans, and has to be analyzed in the context of the perceptions of the humans writing it.

 

I do have an appreciation for liberal Judaism, well the little I know about it. How did you discover it?

 

A friend of mine is Jewish, although I'm not sure which denomination. (I haven't asked, and don't really care.) One time after his father died, he came into work (he's a doctor). He said in speaking about it, "In Judaism, the highest gift is to be able to give of oneself to others. Even on the high holidays, we're permitted to work to save a life." (I now understand that he was explaining why he wasn't sitting Shiva.) The concept struck me as beautiful, and I started doing some research. There were more wonderful ideas like tikkun olam - repairing the world, and chesed - kindness. I was intrigued by both the astounding level of optimism (this is a people who have sustained hope after the Holocaust), and the practicality. Judaism is a very "life-oriented" religion. There is actually no definitive belief system across denominations about an afterlife, or even if one exists. The moral code pretty much revolves around life on Earth.

 

What can I say? I tried it, liked it, and decided to convert.

[bush country]

Thank you Mah Tovu for possibly the most well reasoned explanation I've ever heard of why someone can believe in G-d and balance that with what we have discovered about our world.

 

The Torah is metaphor. Science is observation. Science wins.

 

I like that. Not to make it into a trite saying but I can see a bumper sticker:

 

The Bible is metaphor.

Science is observation.

Science wins.

[HuaiDan]

What about when science supports the bible? Now, before everyone starts screaming "fundy", which most assuredly am not, allow me to 'splain.

Recently, through a strange juxtaposition of events and literary research, I had an interesting, but not entirely original, speculation about symbolism in the bible. Particularly, the story about Abraham and Isaac, where sky daddy commands Abe to kill his son, presumably to test his loyalty. Many followers and non-followers alike are appalled by this story: how can a loving creator even conceive of such a diabolical manipulation?

Now, instead of looking at this as some kind of moral lesson about how we should also be loyal to such an apparently twisted , scheming deity, consider it from another perspective. What if the story is a symbolism about human nature? What if the ancient Hebrews were onto something and this is how they mystically codified it into a parable?

Many of you, no doubt, have heard of Stanley Millgram and his famous experiment about obedience to authority, where experimental subjects were required to deliver painful, potentially lethal electrical shocks to another experimental "subject" (actually and actor who was quite aware of the true nature of the experiment), simply because a bearded man wearing a lab coat and carrying a clipboard told him to do so. Despite the screaming, protesting, writhing, and ultimately feigned unconsciousness of the subject, the true subject continued to administer electrical shocks as ordered by the researcher. In actuality, no electrical shocks were delivered at all, it was all part of the experiment to determine to what extent one person will obey another person simply because they perceive that person to be in a position of authority.

 

I wonder if the ancient Hebrews already knew this, and communicated it through the story of Abe and Isaac. I wonder how many other seemingly monstrous stories of the OT are indeed reflections of monstrous human nature.

[Jun]

The Torah is metaphor. Science is observation. Science wins.

 

Interesting.

[מה טבו]

Actually, HuaiDan, the traditional Jewish interpretation of that story is pretty much exactly as you describe. Even among the Orthodox who take it literally, it's often said that Avraham failed the test by agreeing to sacrifice his son in the first place. Human sacrifice was a big no-no. As far as I know, Avraham and Jephthah were the only 2 stories of it in the Tanakh, and both are stories of failing a test.

 

The ethics regarding the taking of human life even back then are not dissimilar to what we have now. Killing (by humans) was allowed only in self-defense, war, or by court of law (the death penalty). While the Torah describes the courts of law as being kind of vicious back then, to my knowledge, the modern state of Israel has executed only 1 person in its history.

 

As for science, the ritual washing and exclusion of people with certain diseases from the camp is an early form of epidemiology. Although hardly scientific, possibly the first notion of an expanding universe is contained in the tradition behind the name El-Shaddai. Kashrus seems strange to us now, but when you consider the context of people wandering in the desert with no way to refrigerate food, pork and shellfish were potentially deadly stuff. They were a primitive, nomadic, desert tribe, but they weren't dumb. :-)

[Grandpa Harley]

Hence my observations about Aramaic mindset being wholly at odd with Christian dogma (general Christian response is given below)

 

[Jubilant]

Who gave the ten commandments? Not quite. I don't believe in a literal encounter at Sinai. IMHO, the mitzvot are a framework for moral good, The moral code pretty much revolves around life on Earth.

 

What can I say? I tried it, liked it, and decided to convert.

 

 

Okay, I'm sorry but I have to ask....

 

What is the moral code behind binding tefflin on the head and arm and wearing a tzitzit? The mezuzah on a doorpost? Stoning the child who does not honor their parents? Putting to death a woman who doesn't scream loud enough if raped?

 

More mitzvots are to not take away or add to the commands of Torah. So if one chooses to take away or add, then how does this work within the frame of liberal Judaism?

[מה טבו]

What is the moral code behind binding tefflin on the head and arm and wearing a tzitzit?

 

The teffilin/mezuzot are reeeeeally literal interpretations of the commands:

 

6:8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

6:9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

 

While some Liberal Jews use mezuzot as tradition, the Orthodox are the only ones I know of who actually use teffilin.

 

Tzitzit is more common, even among Reform Jews. It's worn as part of ritual, largely out of tradition, although there are several theories about the "official" religious purpose.

 

More mitzvots are to not take away or add to the commands of Torah. So if one chooses to take away or add, then how does this work within the frame of liberal Judaism?

 

How seriously one takes that hinges on that person's view of the Torah and Jewish law. There are differences throughout the denominations. The approaches to Torahic authorship and the nature of Jewish law are basically:

 

Orthodox: Torah/Talmud are divine writing. Jewish law is binding and unchanging, but is decided and interpreted by rabbis. Rabbinic rulings essentially made the death penalty by a Bet Din impossible centuries ago.

 

Conservative: Torah is divine, Talmud is human. Jewish law is binding, but subject to change over time. For example, Conservative men shave, gender equality is stressed, and the ordination of gay and lesbian rabbis is permitted.

 

Reform: (my crowd) Torah and Talmud are both written by humans. Each individual has the right to interpret the Torah as s/he sees fit, and thus each individual chooses which mitzvot to follow depending on his/her interpretation.

 

Reconstructionist/Humanist: Torah/Talmud both human works. The mitzvot are valuable traditions, and it's a good idea to follow the ones that apply to the modern world.

[Jubilant]

Thank you. :-)

[HuaiDan]

Space Falcon she's not.

[Ahh!]

I've gotten asked about it a few times. ?? ??? is transliterated "Mah Tovu." It means "how good" or "How lovely" and is an excerpt from a verse said every week in synagogues all over the world: "Mah Tovu ohaleicha Yaakov, mishk'notecha Yisrael." The verse is translated "How goodly are your tents, O Jacob, your dwelling places, O Israel."

 

The choice of this name is actually about my own experience, not about Judaism or Zionism. When I approached Judaism, I was able to break the last holds of fundamentalist Christianity on my life, because I learned to approach scripture and deity in a completely different way. I finally learned how to take a nuanced, non-literalist view of the Tanakh, and an abstract, undefined, non-person-in-the-sky view of HaShem. To know that there were other ideas of divinity out there - that the solution was not binary (Christian or Atheist) - was liberating.

 

Before Judaism, I was an atheist for 10 years. I have no regrets from that time - I'm actually still quite proud of it, and I cherish what I learned from it. In the same way, I cherish what I've learned from Liberal Judaism as something beautiful - something tovu.

 

I almost converted to Judaism. I remember I went through a long period (about 5 months; 3 hours a day) where I participated in debates between Orthodox Jews and Jews For Jesus over whether Jesus was the Jewish messiah. I had a strong interest in Judaism because I knew it was the root of the faiths of half the world and I myself had Jewish ancestors who were basically forced to convert to Christianity centuries ago.

 

Eventually though, I wore myself out. This was probably because I was trying to force myself to be more Jewish than I was ready to be (my main exposure was to Chabad Lubavitch and Aish HaTorah which are both very Orthodox). I also was very hateful to Christians at that time because I was having so many confrontations with Jews For Jesus.

 

I ultimately decided not to become Jewish because I was looking for something more "mystical" than Judaism readily could provide. I didn't want to learn God's law- I wanted to talk to God. Today, I experiment with Tantra, Sufism, Jewish Meditation (as taught by Aryeh Kaplan in a book of the same name- look it up, it's very good), and Buddhism.

[מה טבו]

Eventually though, I wore myself out. This was probably because I was trying to force myself to be more Jewish than I was ready to be (my main exposure was to Chabad Lubavitch and Aish HaTorah which are both very Orthodox). I also was very hateful to Christians at that time because I was having so many confrontations with Jews For Jesus.

 

Yikes. Chabad/Aish and JfJ? You managed to simultaneously locate the two poles of crazy in Judaism at once! Chabad and Aish are definitely Orthodox, but JfJ, as I'm sure you've already figured out, is a particularly annoying form of Christianity playing dress-up. The former are Jewish, the latter pretend to be.

 

I'm not particularly fond of Christianity, but I take a lassiez-faire approach. (I'm not fond of pistachios either, but if you like 'em, go right ahead.) JfJ, on the other hand, makes my blood boil. They're a primary example of the type of deception in missionizing that has been practiced since the time of Paul.

 

To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.

1 Corinthians 9:19-21

 

If you read the NT, Paul admits several times to using deceit to gain converts. Given that his letters are in a book believed by many Christians to be infallible, is it any wonder others have followed suit?

 

I ultimately decided not to become Jewish because I was looking for something more "mystical" than Judaism readily could provide.

 

You're right on that one. Outside of Kabbalah, which isn't really taken that seriously by anyone outside the Chasids, Judaism isn't very mystical. There's no definitive eschatology, there's no agreement on whether things like angels exist, and the emphasis is more on how you live your day-to-day life than forming any real mystical experience. (Given its tribal and legal history, this makes sense.) There is an element of spirituality there of course, but mysticism isn't the dominant aspect. I think that's why it works for me. I've never been a particularly mystical person.

 

//Added: I actually have some admiration for Buddhism. With the exception of a few very hardcore sects, it's a pretty laid-back, happy religion that doesn't seek to conquer anybody. I looked at it once, but could never manage meditation or Eastern philosophy. //

 

Space Falcon she's not. smile.gif

 

Who is Space Falcon?

[Ahh!]

Yikes. Chabad/Aish and JfJ? You managed to simultaneously locate the two poles of crazy in Judaism at once!

 

You should of seen me back then. This would have been about December of last year through late January of this year. I almost became a Jewish fundie. I would yell at Jews who were dating Gentiles at my high school because statistically interfaith marriage generally leads to children who don't practice Judaism. I would tell Christians that they were practicing a pagan faith (which is true in a sense but definitely not a very nice thing to say in friendly conversation.) I even had the seal of the JDL on one of my binders. In a word, I was CRAZY.

 

I always struggled with Chabad's attempts to try to argue against evolution and other scientific common sense. The thing with Chabad and Aish is they have very prolific outreach programs- even though I didn't believe everything they said, I was willing to listen to them because they were the only voice offering a lot of Jewish education, self-improvement programs and life advice at the same time. This was kind of a trap though because once I accepted their more rational claims, I felt obligated to accept their absurd claims. I suspect this happens with a lot of religious groups.

 

I have to admit I still use their websites from time to time. Some of their online writers are very wise. I don't study their theological claims anymore though as they are ridiculous.

[מה טבו]

I even had the seal of the JDL on one of my binders.

 

Damn.

 

I have to admit I still use their websites from time to time. Some of their online writers are very wise.

 

I check out their sites once in a while myself, mostly for more detail on the holidays. They have a lot of practical instruction on things like braiding challah and the Pesach seder. The women's section even has cleaning tips! (Hey, some of them are good.) Once in a while though, I do see a writer come up with something really good. There's one called "Schwarma, a love story" that was freaking hilarious.

 

I treat Chabad and Aish kind of like an eccentric, religious old uncle. They have something really good to say sometimes, but you always take them with a grain of salt.

[perianwalsh]

I've gotten asked about it a few times. מה טבו is transliterated "Mah Tovu." It means "how good" or "How lovely" and is an excerpt from a verse said every week in synagogues all over the world: "Mah Tovu ohaleicha Yaakov, mishk'notecha Yisrael." The verse is translated "How goodly are your tents, O Jacob, your dwelling places, O Israel."

It must be a lot of people who are asking you this.Anyway,the name is -very good one.I thought you are a born Jew.Seems like I am mistaken-and that story of yours is very nice

And thanks for your earlier reply

 

What about when science supports the bible? Now, before everyone starts screaming "fundy", which most assuredly am not, allow me to 'splain.

Recently, through a strange juxtaposition of events and literary research, I had an interesting, but not entirely original, speculation about symbolism in the bible. Particularly, the story about Abraham and Isaac, where sky daddy commands Abe to kill his son, presumably to test his loyalty. Many followers and non-followers alike are appalled by this story: how can a loving creator even conceive of such a diabolical manipulation?

Now, instead of looking at this as some kind of moral lesson about how we should also be loyal to such an apparently twisted , scheming deity, consider it from another perspective. What if the story is a symbolism about human nature? What if the ancient Hebrews were onto something and this is how they mystically codified it into a parable?

Many of you, no doubt, have heard of Stanley Millgram and his famous experiment about obedience to authority, where experimental subjects were required to deliver painful, potentially lethal electrical shocks to another experimental "subject" (actually and actor who was quite aware of the true nature of the experiment), simply because a bearded man wearing a lab coat and carrying a clipboard told him to do so. Despite the screaming, protesting, writhing, and ultimately feigned unconsciousness of the subject, the true subject continued to administer electrical shocks as ordered by the researcher. In actuality, no electrical shocks were delivered at all, it was all part of the experiment to determine to what extent one person will obey another person simply because they perceive that person to be in a position of authority.

 

I wonder if the ancient Hebrews already knew this, and communicated it through the story of Abe and Isaac. I wonder how many other seemingly monstrous stories of the OT are indeed reflections of monstrous human nature.

 

 

I heard that Isaac Newton is trying to see the symbols in the bible too.

And I got a link here:It mainly says that there might be psychological meaning in the Genesis,on the creation account-But maybe it's nothing new to any of you

original link:http://dinoweb.myweb.hinet.net/scripture-2.htm

Just put into babel fish and select chinese traditional to english

 

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr

 

And I am sorry I cannot participate much of the topic.of the hebrew words written above,I 've only heard mizvot before.

[מה טבו]

Chabad and Aish are two organizations for Orthodox Jews. They are reeeally Orthodox.

 

Mitzvot = commandments.

 

Tanakh = the entire set of books that make up the Old Testament in the Christian Bible

 

Torah = the first five books of the Bible

 

Talmud = another sacred text in Judaism. The "oral Torah", a written collection of oral legands and law in Judaism.

 

Tefillin = heh, I'll let Wikipedia explain that one. It involves Orthodox Jews and leather straps.

 

Mezuza/Mezuzot = A little plaque containing a scripture that Jews place on the doorposts of their houses and (sometimes) businesses.

 

Tzitzit & Tallit = a square prayer shawl warn with a series of complicated braided fringes.

 

Sorry for the technicality - feel free to ask about any others.

[perianwalsh]

thanks ,mah tovu

I guess my research on Jews is still a long way

[Fweethawt]

Space Falcon she's not.

 

Who is Space Falcon?

Space Falcon used to be a member of ExC that was an actual Jew. Not a Jewannabe.

[HuaiDan]

Space Falcon she's not.

 

Who is Space Falcon?

Space Falcon used to be a member of ExC that was an actual Jew. Not a Jewannabe.

You say that as if it were a good thing.

[Fweethawt]

Space Falcon she's not.

Who is Space Falcon?

Space Falcon used to be a member of ExC that was an actual Jew. Not a Jewannabe.

You say that as if it were a good thing.

Okay then... He was a Jewhadtobe.

[HuaiDan]

I think every jew that comes on here for the next 5 years will risk being compared to SF, so notorious is his legacy.