Is Closure Really Needed?

[Rhia]

Hey guys,

 

So anyway, as of my adoption I was raised by a single woman - and it happened to be during the peak of my pentecostal insanity. Since I was being raised by a single woman as a teenager, I gravitated to my pastors as father-figures.

 

So here's my dilemma:

 

My last youth pastor was a decently "cool" kind of guy. Graduated from a Christian college not far away from the one I attend, was really big into being a jovial, accepting, and overall nice guy. He was the one who managed to get me to speak in "tongues", who held me back from "backsliding", etc. His wife was awesome, and they were really able to handle me well when I was being absolutely insane in my "I hate all men and want to be celebate" phase. He for all intends and purposes, was my dad for 2 years. I went to him for a lot of the stuff that was on my mind.

 

So one day, clearly out of the blue to us, it was announced to our group that he and his wife were leaving (right after the week before he disclosed that he wanted to take the lead pastoral position of the church we attended), because "god had told him" that he was required somewhere down south, closer to his brother in Virginia Beach. He said he wouldn't be leaving for another month, but when I returned to our meeting the next week, he had unexpectedly up and left. His house (where our meetings were held) was completely empty, there was no sign that he had even been there recently, no note for us, no nothing. (Can anyone imagine a group of teenagers showing up at their pastor's house to all find it empty as if he'd never lived there? It was horrifying.)

 

So no one knew where he was, and quickly our group dissolved. I went to college, and occasionally spoke with one of my friends that had attended with me. Well, I begin college, I deconvert quite quickly thereafter, and his disappearance was part of what influenced my deconversion - with too many questions in my head, some regarding the role of a pastor, others just the typical ones that everyone else asks, and three years passes with my missing him a bit in the back of my mind, but having no clue where he is. I ask my friend once in a while, since he was a youth leader under the pastor and would know before I would - he claims he doesn't.

 

Then one day, completely by accident, I find him on myspace. By then, my page states obviously that I'm an atheist, but aside from that there's nothing offensive about what I have up. I try to add him and he refuses, saying that if he adds me it'll "be a poor witness" to those youth that he's currently working with. He agrees to talk to me about my deconversion, but before I an even send him an email to say "hello, I've missed you - how's your wife? I can't believe you have 2 sons!", he disappears again.

 

I asked my friend yet again, have you seen him anywhere, because I did want to at least know where I could send a card congratulating him on the birth of his second son; he said he had no clue. Yet two weeks ago, I discovered that for the past half a year they've been corresponding on myspace with each other. (Serves me right for not checking his page more than once a year I guess.)

 

Please don't get me wrong, I respect a person's right to privacy, and to choose with whom they correspond; but I hate being lied to. I know I should move on from this without another thought, but there's this bit of me that just wants the closure of being able to talk to him once or twice, to ask why on earth he would get so close to a group of teens only to run away, to ask why when I found him and tried to be pleasant he ignored me. I know that it's probably the same old story of my being an atheist now, but I still want to at last hear it straight from him.

 

I'm also kind of mad because he has no problem hurting other kids - I found out that he went from the south a year or so later up to Connecticut and started a "youth network" or 8 churches. Sick if you ask me.

 

Anyway, I know that I'm probably acting silly, and I'm sorry if I sound like a sorry excuse or an emotional wreak - I'm really not. I just want to know if it's going to be worth it in the long run to actually try to get a little bit of closure from an experience that when I look back upon I feel so much confusion.

 

So should I actually send him an email, that I need to speak with him? I'm really unsure.

 

Thanks everyone, for listening to me ramble here.

[Ouroboros]

Did I understand it right that your friend and the youth pastor has been corresponding on myspace, and he/she lied to you?

 

To be honest, this whole story makes me believe that the youth pastor fled away because he did something wrong, and that maybe he had and affair with your friend. But that's just my suspicious mind at works here...

[Rhia]

Well, my friend is a guy, and the pastor is married - I suppose it could happen, but my thought was that he just wanted to avoid me because I'm not a Christian anymore.

 

You did understand me right though when I said that my friend and the pastor had been corresponding, and that my friend will still to this day claim that they haven't spoken since he left. So yes, I have been lied to in that regard - by two people. (Not a very good friend, huh?)

[Vigile]

When he originally fled you were a xian right? It just sounds to me as if this guy has a problem with being flaky. I can understand you wanting to get the full scoop, but it sounds like he is intent on being evasive.

[bush country]

His sudden departure does have a foul odor.

 

As a pastor he should not be avoiding you since you've become an atheist, he should be pursuing you to bring you back into the fold. Maybe your deconversion is pointing out his lack of faith.

 

My opinion - go ahead and send him the email. Either he will reply and you can have a conversation that leads to closure for you, or he will ignore it. In which case it is time to write him off.

[Ouroboros]

Well, my friend is a guy, and the pastor is married - I suppose it could happen, but my thought was that he just wanted to avoid me because I'm not a Christian anymore.

 

You did understand me right though when I said that my friend and the pastor had been corresponding, and that my friend will still to this day claim that they haven't spoken since he left. So yes, I have been lied to in that regard - by two people. (Not a very good friend, huh?)

So is your guy friend still a (active) Christian?

 

What I find a bit suspicious is that he disappeared so fast with his whole family, and emptied the place, and no note and no one knew anything. It's either something that would happen if someone gets an identity change for protection after a criminal case, or he's trying to run away before he gets caught doing something he shouldn't. Maybe someone was catching on and confronted him and he took the hike. Now he's afraid of getting into touch with anyone of the original gang, because he doesn't know who to trust. And the only one he still trusts maybe is your friend. I have a very active imagination sometimes... Maybe he suspects that you would be someone to turn him in to the authorities if you found out what he's been doing. Maybe he was/is into young boys, like many youth pastors before him?

 

What's the status on your friend? Does he seem to be "normal", in the sense that he has a stable relationship, girl friend, boy friend etc, and no issues or surpressed emotions? I'm really stretching here, but who knows, maybe he was involved?

[Spoomonkey]

As a former youth pastor myself, I can say that he should be confronted about his actions. You deserve to know what happened to him - and why he won't talk to you now. It is actually pretty funny - I had a former youth of mine contact me this weekend. She does not agree with my spiritual choices, but - as is her way - she was actually quite graceful and wonderful to talk to. I doubt the relationship will ever be the same - though it would be wonderful if it could be - but it was great to hear from her, and to hear from her in a kind, non-judgemental way.

 

It is possible (I think) to have good relationships with the people in your past, even if you don't see eye-to-eye.

 

However, the way he treated your group was dispicable; shameful. And the way he is treating you now is pathetic. He is a laughable excuse for a minister and he should be told as much. Even as an ex-Christian, I still consider myself to have a responsibility to my youth. I loved them deeply and really gave all I had to impact their lives. These kids were like my kids in the same way that he was like your father. I would still be there for most of them day or night - and the ones that I wouldn't be there for... Well, I would love the chance to tell the little bastards why

 

It is natural for you to need closure. And it is tragic that his actions have been as hurtful to you as they have. I think you have every right to be emotional about this.

 

My best to you!

 

Spoomonkey

[Spoomonkey]

I have a very active imagination sometimes...

 

And I have no doubt you'd be a hoot to drink with!

 

But in all seriousness, not all youth pastors are perverts (well - at least they aren't all pedophiles). I had great relationships with my youth - and never had a "thing" for any of them. Frankly, my weakness was always their moms .

 

Spoomonkey

[Ouroboros]

But in all seriousness, not all youth pastors are perverts (well - at least they aren't all pedophiles). I had great relationships with my youth - and never had a "thing" for any of them. Frankly, my weakness was always their moms .

Yeah, I know. I do exaggerate a bit... occasionally...

 

I was working in Sunday school too for several years, and I worked as a teacher at a Christian highschool... and o'boy, do I agree with you... some of those MILFs you see...

 

But back to the issues, I remember that when I went all-out-fundamentalist, I did pretty hastily cut some relationships with old friends and didn't establish contact again. Such a shame. But that could also be an explanation of the youth pastors behavior.

[NearlyInsane]

Sounds pretty fishy to me too. But doesn't surprise me one bit. When I was a kid, my pastor was doing all kinds of naughty stuff, & of course I wasn't informed of any of it (being a child). Just one Sunday instead of giving a sermon, he read his resignation letter & left. That night the church mysteriously burned down. Took me years of overheard conversations to piece together what happened. Apparently the church elders (or whatever they were called) had had enough of his immoral & illegal behavior & forced him to resign, & thought it best on our youth psyches to just have an unexplained resignation to deal w/ than anything resembling the truth. And tho the fire dept declared the fire to be arson, the investigation was mysteriously called off & the instigator was never indicted. But it was made quite obvious to me whom the remaining church members were convinced was behind it.

 

I doubt you'll ever get anything resembling closure w/ this guy, since he's made it obvious that he doesn't want to speak to you (and I seriously doubt that has ANYTHING to do w/ your current beliefs). Eventually you'll just have to chalk it up to those shady xians. They pretend to be the only holders of a moral compass, but more often than not it's just a coverup for something they believe deep down to be morally reprehensible. The dude's probably running from himself as much as anyone else. And as for your friend, I'd pretty much write him off too. At least you know now that you can't trust him. Nice to find that out before you REALLY depended on him for something.

[מה טבו]

You could write the letter, but keep in mind that you may not like the response you get.

 

If he's being that evasive, he may not respond to you at all, or he could respond telling you not to contact him again. Then again, he could offer an explanation. You never know.

 

I'm one of the crowd here that smells a rat. Have you tried Googling the guy's name - doing research on his past?

[mwc]

Yeah, I'm smelling a forced move to "be closer to his brother" and it feels like it involved the youth group. Where kids are involved it really doesn't matter if something happened or not...an accusation is enough to destroy a life so he may have chose to leave. It just seems odd that he mentioned associating with you would undermine his work with his current youths since he could easily explain it away as reaching out to an old "lost sheep" and be a hero...but a scandal (no matter what it might have been) from the past is so much harder to run away from. Maybe part of the "deal" he might have gotten from your old church to keep quiet may have been to stay away from everyone (which doesn't explain your friend)?

 

mwc

[Rhia]

No, it doesn't explain why he still keeps correspondence with my friend. I assure everyone, that as suspicious as some may seem, that I highly doubt that my pastor was involved with my college-aged, male friend. My friend is definitely not into that, considering he's more or less what he calls an "adult baby" searching for a mom, not dad.

 

It was just such a weird situation - I'm more concerned with why he was so choosy with whom he spoke to afterward than speculating whom he screwed in our youth group.

 

Though I will also admit that it's very weird, the method by by which he left so quickly - it does seem to insinuate guilt. Why does it seem that so many youth pastors are total douchebags?

[NearlyInsane]

Why does it seem that so many youth pastors are total douchebags?

Not just youth pastors, pastors in general. My theory is that those w/ severe mental/emotional problems are drawn to xianity. And many who start out ok end up w/ emotional problems because of the many conflicts xianity causes in people. And on top of that there are complete con-artists who (correctly) see xians as easy prey. Your youth pastor could easily fall in one of those 3 groups. From what you've described, he's probably not a straight-up con-man, but definitely has some kind of problems to be running away in the middle of the night, so to speak.

 

You know, the more I think of it the more I think 'closure' is going to come to you in the form of accepting that this guy isn't who you thought he was. He may have some honest goodness & desire to help kids in him, but as you've seen he seems equally capable of abandoning the same kids w/out concern for what it'll do to them. Maybe he's bipolar. Either way, he's horribly flawed, & that's what you need to accept. Most likely you won't ever get any kind of explanation from him, much less an explanation that will satisfy you.

[Japedo]

Well, my friend is a guy, and the pastor is married - I suppose it could happen, but my thought was that he just wanted to avoid me because I'm not a Christian anymore.

 

You did understand me right though when I said that my friend and the pastor had been corresponding, and that my friend will still to this day claim that they haven't spoken since he left. So yes, I have been lied to in that regard - by two people. (Not a very good friend, huh?)

 

 

I don't think he wants to avoid you due to you not being a Christian anymore, that's a cop-out lame reason, He *Should* be concerned as to why you no longer believe. Sounds like he has other issues and runs away from problems to me. I don't think it has/had anything to do with you. Maybe he was screwing around on his wife or was into a life style that was outside of what he was leading in the church. People who run away usually have a reason for doing so. Sounds like he's in people's life just long enough to get himself in trouble or known and then goes elsewhere where no one knows him to start off new again.

 

I think you should confront him. Let him know he was a father figure to you and he not only ran away with no notice or forwarding Info, that when you find him by happenstance he's completely dismissive and rude to you. Ask him if this is "calling" to teenagers who look up to him, ask him to clarify his leadership role and his 'witness for Christ'.

 

I'm sorry this guy has treated you so awful Rhia.

[mwc]

It was just such a weird situation - I'm more concerned with why he was so choosy with whom he spoke to afterward than speculating whom he screwed in our youth group.

 

Though I will also admit that it's very weird, the method by by which he left so quickly - it does seem to insinuate guilt. Why does it seem that so many youth pastors are total douchebags?

Even though my post did seem to imply something to do with the kids (since that's the obvious choice) it could have easily been an affair with a parent or money or just politics as usual in a church. The (unknown to us) allegation alone could be seen as a threat to anything he's established today and he doesn't want to risk it. If he was told to stay away from old church members that doesn't explain your friend but if your friend knows what truly happened then he may be the one (or the few) that this guy knows he can speak with. You would be a "wild card" to him. Are you a "friend" or are you someone looking to "expose" him? The thing is, if it was church politics, he may not have done anything (his behavior, and that of your friend, makes it seem otherwise though).

 

mwc

[Amethyst]

Ditto, I find it odd that he left so quickly. Have you tried talking to other former members of your youth group? They may know what really happened.

[godlessgrrl]

As far as coming to any kind of closure with folks who up and leave, and who refuse to communicate afterwards, what works for me is not to try to figure out their motivations or intentions, but to focus primarily on their actions.

 

Regardless of the reasons why he might have left, how do his actions reflect on his character? What does it say about the character of a person who cuts all ties so abruptly? What does it say about him, that he abandoned the youth group he was responsible for? What does it say about him, that he believes that openly associating with you would set a bad example to his current youth group (i.e., your replacements)?

 

I'd say that it says he's an irresponsible, uncaring, judgmental douchebag, and have done with it.

 

But that's just me. Your closure mileage may vary.

 

Additional food for thought: what does it say about your friend, that he would lie so consistently and for so long to you about his association with this youth pastor?

[perianwalsh]

It's natural.most of them will not talk to sinners,as they says,or he's guilty about his crimes....i see japedo point,but....

i wonder what the pastor thinks

 

/off topic

Rhia,your avatar is a bit of familiar,where does it comes from?

//off topic

[Rhia]

So I emailed him Friday, and still no answer today. I know it's been only a weekend, but I also checked, and I know he's been online. C'est la vie - I guess he really is an asshole. I only wrote him something simple, along the lines of "Hello, I hope you're well - I noticed you're back on the site when looking at ____'s page, and thought I'd see if you're up for a chat".

 

I did Google him, as was a suggestion, and thought I would post one of his "lovely" and well-known mini-sermon's that he would often grace us with a version of at our group, but has also taken the liberty of posting on this guy's site.

 

It’s time for the youth pastors and leaders of America to take off the desire to win kids by being popular with them. It’s time for the youth pastors and leaders of America to put on the mantle of the Old Testament prophet. The Old Testament prophet served in several major capacities: being the voice of God to the nation, being the voice and representative of God to the nation’s leadership, calling the nation to repentance, anointing new leadership, and training up other prophets. They were unashamed in their declaration of the word. They called the nation to holiness, and made no apologies for it. I believe most of our ministries have been built upon pandering to the crowd and culture. This is not pleasing to God. May the prophetic spirit dwell in us and be obvious in our ministries. This is how we will see true, enduring disciples made through our ministries.

Comment by Damian Schoonmaker 01.13.06 @ 11:11 am

 

His comment is made more in context on this blog: http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=372

 

I guess it's not necessary to need closure, if when I took the time to really think about it, I'm totally repulsed by this man. Or maybe this is my closure.

 

Either way, thank you all.

 

Feel free to rip him a new one for his stupid prophetic shit, too.

 

Also, my avatar is from the fantasy scene in Labyrinth.

[Guest crystal.nycole]

I'm a newbie around here, but I read this and my heart goes out to you, Rhia. I've had similar experiences with people who've decided that they can't speak to me anymore because my beliefs didn't mirror theirs (although oddly enough, THAT was a catalyst to my [still in progress] de-conversion, and not the other way around.) It sounds to me like this guy is most likely more concerned with his "image" than he is with really loving people. He could be confused, misled, or an outright asshole, but the truth is that his abandonment of you is wrong, and you deserve far, far better treatment. I don't know what it is about Christianity that seems to inspire people to behave in such ways... maybe it's that the opinion of some sky-fairy is more important to them than whether or not they hurt people. It's a painful delusion, to say the least.

 

But yeah, he's probably not done anything, but your deconversion may either make him nervous (he sounds like a nervous person to begin with), and he sounds like he has issues with honesty. I think I agree the most with this advice:

 

You know, the more I think of it the more I think 'closure' is going to come to you in the form of accepting that this guy isn't who you thought he was. He may have some honest goodness & desire to help kids in him, but as you've seen he seems equally capable of abandoning the same kids w/out concern for what it'll do to them. Maybe he's bipolar. Either way, he's horribly flawed, & that's what you need to accept. Most likely you won't ever get any kind of explanation from him, much less an explanation that will satisfy you.

 

Although I would say that you might find some emotional closure sending him an email that lets him know how he's made you feel. Were it me, I'd probably seek my own little revenge by contacting his current employer, but being that he's likely employed by a church, it isn't likely that they'd call him it. *rolls eyes* Or they'd take his word over yours, since you're an "unbeliever".

 

People are assholes. Your best bet is to find the least assholish people and let the rest kiss your ass.

[godlessgrrl]

It’s time for the youth pastors and leaders of America to take off the desire to win kids by being popular with them. It’s time for the youth pastors and leaders of America to put on the mantle of the Old Testament prophet. The Old Testament prophet served in several major capacities: being the voice of God to the nation, being the voice and representative of God to the nation’s leadership, calling the nation to repentance, anointing new leadership, and training up other prophets. They were unashamed in their declaration of the word. They called the nation to holiness, and made no apologies for it. I believe most of our ministries have been built upon pandering to the crowd and culture. This is not pleasing to God. May the prophetic spirit dwell in us and be obvious in our ministries. This is how we will see true, enduring disciples made through our ministries.

Comment by Damian Schoonmaker 01.13.06 @ 11:11 am

 

Translation:

"We've been too caring and compassionate towards the people we've served in our ministry. God doesn't like that. We need to remember that we're holier than everybody else, and separate ourselves from all the riff-raff in our lives. So let's prune the unholy and unsaved from our lives, and concentrate on making sure they don't come and pollute the holiness of our little club."

 

Douchebags. You're better off without this asshole.

[mwc]

I have to go with gwenmead on this. If he's looking to be an OT prophet, especially with the kids, then he's a grade A ass. All those guys did was point fingers and pull the "holier than though" shit (but they save themselves, for "god," when the going gets rough). Cut him loose for your own good. His true colors have been revealed. He may have been a nice guy once upon a time (which I doubt because his post makes that appear that was just a tactic to be used and it failed so now onto something else) but it's obvious that you two are polar opposites now and to him you are evil scum under his feet (re-read the prophets to see what I mean if you don't remember them). You'll be better off if you can figure out how to just let it go.

 

mwc

[decafaholic]

Wow, that sounds familiar.

I'm not trying to top your story or anything, but it reminded me of something similiar that happened when I was in high school.

My science teacher was also the wife of a popular youth minister in town. They seemed like they loved each other so much. Her face would just light up when he called her on her phone. She also seemed to be very devout. She and her husband went on missions tripswith the youth and she used to start classwith a devotional (it was a Christian school). One time, she quoted the whole book of Philippians to us. Then one day, out of the blue, her husband resigned from being youth pastor. No one saw it coming. It turns out that my science teacher kind of went nuts. She took off to florida to meet a man she met on the internet and said she wanted a divorce and didn't want custody of the kids (I think she had 3 kids). Everyone was in shock. I don't know where either of them or the kids are now.

[R. S. Martin]

I just read this thread now. Most of it was written back in August so Rhia, you have probably dealt with the issues by now. I notice that nobody mentions the role adoption might play in this. I'm not sure if I have your story straight but it seems to me that any child who goes through adoption must experience severe trauma.

 

I was raised in my biological family and I do know that people from seriously chaotic childhood situations may have more difficulty dealing with chaotic or unpredictable relationship situations later in life. At least, that is what I find for myself and I think I've come across the same idea in the literature. A father figure disappearing like this could trigger any number of deep and disturbing memories for a person from a seriously chaotic background. For a child to be taken from parents, even if they were bad parents, must feel chaotic because it is done by powers completely beyond their control.

 

Those are some of the thoughts that keep coming up for me as I read through the thread. For me to get closure in that kind of situation, sometimes I just have to analyze every thing and conclude that I did the best I could and then sit with it and let it be. With time the uncomfortable feelings will subside. That will be the closure. It's all that is possible, and life does go on.