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Kevin H

Ex-christian Exodus

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American Christianity is reaping the whirlwind of superficiality. Either mass media gives a false impression, or there actually is a growing number of Ex-Christians. And the Christian counter-culture and marketing machine of church-on-every-corner America is producing them.

 

This is a country of Christendom. Unfortunately, our affluence and marketing saavy produces religious theme-parks, vacation cruises, guady TV shows, Christian dentist offices complete with a fish on the drill, restaurants where the waitress gives her testimony before taking your order ("I'll have the Noah's Ark Platter"), Born Again Used Cars, Maranatha Insurance, Christian Brothers Auto Repair, Christian Donuts, Christian Day at Six Flags, Creation Museums, Christian Diet Plans, and sloganeering T-shirts. Everything I just described is real. And it's ten miles wide and one inch deep.

 

One can thrive in this ghetto provided one never experiences heartache, reads a book, pays attention to the Third World, reads the Bible, or thinks. The blessings of free market enterprise can generate noise and fury, but no substance. The top-ten best-sellers in Christian bookstores are consistently books on how to get blessings, purchased by people who are unbelievably blessed.

 

I am convinced that the evacuation from this pseudo-world is what is occuring among multitudes of sincere people. And actually, this can be a good thing if one is willing to peel the layers to get to the meat.

 

Worse, churches large and small, rural and urban, are influenced by this marketing machine that passes for Christianity. So the person in the pew with no direct access to big-city Christian ammenities still absorb the mentality.

 

What is responsible for this mentality? In brief, an anti-intellectual, touchy-feely spirituality that has been growing since the end of World War II, culminating in various charismatic movements, "name it claim it" Word of Faith churches, and mega-churches.

 

Finally, I've noticed that Ex-Christians who fled or were burned by all this know Evangelical lingo, code words, and expectations. They are as good at giving their "Ex-Christian" testimony as they were giving the Christian one. And they anticipate how Christians will respond. This may prevent honest reflection and dialouge.

 

If this shoe fits anyone here, I am truly, terribly saddened by it.

 

Kevin H

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Christianity will die a slow death, for the better, when more and more people wake up to the realisation that there is no need any longer for superstitious fables.

 

And actually, this can be a good thing if one is willing to peel the layers to get to the meat.

 

Rotting smelling meat it is too.

 

This may prevent honest reflection and dialouge.

 

Christians don't know the meanings of these words. "Honest reflection" and questioning is forbidden and their dialogue is only one way - believe in our superstitious sky-god or we'll tell you you'll be damned to our fictitious hell-realm after you are dead and rotting.

 

One can thrive in this ghetto provided one never experiences heartache, reads a book, pays attention to the Third World, reads the Bible, or thinks.

 

Thinking and reading the bible. Hmmmm. If more Christians actually DID think when they read the bible there would be a lot less Christians. Christians don't "think" when they read the bible. They simple skim over the rape, murder, death, etc and pick the bits that sound reasonably good. They ignore the fairy tales - the dragons, talking donkeys, flying chariots, giants, unicorns, etc and pretend that their idealist fable is reality.

 

.........there actually is a growing number of Ex-Christians

 

I see them and meet them in greater and greater numbers every week, not sure about the U.S., but people at my end of the world are slowly waking up.

 

I've noticed that Ex-Christians who fled or were burned by all this know Evangelical lingo, code words, and expectations.

 

Er, what "code words?" Did I miss the latest Atheist memo on dealing with Fundies again? I don't know any evangelical lingo, only what Christianity is - fiction.

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Finally, I've noticed that Ex-Christians who fled or were burned by all this know Evangelical lingo, code words, and expectations. They are as good at giving their "Ex-Christian" testimony as they were giving the Christian one. And they anticipate how Christians will respond. This may prevent honest reflection and dialouge.

 

If this shoe fits anyone here, I am truly, terribly saddened by it.

 

Kevin H

 

Kevin,

 

I know that this is probably hard for you to understand but I'll say it regardless. Jesus Christ isn't real, there for all of the dogma attached to it isn't real either. There are 100s of different garden variety of Christian sects. They vary in degrees from full fledge fundys to liberal, Ex-Cers come from every branch.

 

My lack of belief in Christ isn't due to the fact that there are fundyville rides and restaurants... it comes from the fact that with a true and open heart and mind I looked for honest answers, I looked for the real God. The one that said.. You'll know them by their fruits, Seek and Ye shall find and so forth. The fact that you dismiss why many of us lack the belief you hold so dear is proof enough you refuse to search for answers and open your eyes yourself. It's much easier for you to lump us all in a superficial group and label us superficial people this perhaps guards your own saftynet. Of course you couldn't be further from the Truth ™. :Wendywhatever:

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Finally, I've noticed that Ex-Christians who fled or were burned by all this know Evangelical lingo, code words, and expectations. They are as good at giving their "Ex-Christian" testimony as they were giving the Christian one. And they anticipate how Christians will respond. This may prevent honest reflection and dialouge.

 

If this shoe fits anyone here, I am truly, terribly saddened by it.

 

Kevin H

 

Kevin,

 

I know that this is probably hard for you to understand but I'll say it regardless. Jesus Christ isn't real, there for all of the dogma attached to it isn't real either. There are 100s of different garden variety of Christian sects. They vary in degrees from full fledge fundys to liberal, Ex-Cers come from every branch.

 

My lack of belief in Christ isn't due to the fact that there are fundyville rides and restaurants... it comes from the fact that with a true and open heart and mind I looked for honest answers, I looked for the real God. The one that said.. You'll know them by their fruits, Seek and Ye shall find and so forth. The fact that you dismiss why many of us lack the belief you hold so dear is proof enough you refuse to search for answers and open your eyes yourself. It's much easier for you to lump us all in a superficial group and label us superficial people this perhaps guards your own saftynet. Of course you couldn't be further from the Truth . :Wendywhatever:

 

KH> Then I guess the shoe I described doesn't fit. You seem to be claiming you are not a refugee from the land I described. Fair enough. But I did notice how quickly you accused me of being close-minded despite my insistence that this shoe doesn't fit everyone. That tends to show close-mindedness on your part.

 

I did notice how patronizing you are in your response, that also shows the very emotional nature of this topic. I sympathize.

 

Kevin H

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Click here before you read for the musical accomp

 

Give me that old time religion

Tis the old time religion,

Tis the old time religion,

And it's good enough for me.

 

It was good for our mothers.

It was good for our mothers.

It was good for our mothers.

And it's good enough for me.

 

 

Give me that old time religion

Tis the old time religion,

Tis the old time religion,

And it's good enough for me.

 

 

Makes me love everybody.

Makes me love everybody.

Makes me love everybody.

And it's good enough for me.

 

 

Give me that old time religion

Tis the old time religion,

Tis the old time religion,

And it's good enough for me.

 

 

It has saved our fathers.

It has saved our fathers.

It has saved our fathers.

And it's good enough for me.

 

 

Give me that old time religion

Tis the old time religion,

Tis the old time religion,

And it's good enough for me.

 

 

It will do when I am dying.

It will do when I am dying.

It will do when I am dying.

And it's good enough for me.

 

 

Give me that old time religion

Tis the old time religion,

Tis the old time religion,

And it's good enough for me.

 

 

It will take us all to heaven.

It will take us all to heaven.

It will take us all to heaven.

And it's good enough for me.

 

 

Give me that old time religion

Tis the old time religion,

Tis the old time religion,

And it's good enough for me.

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Or here's another theory Kev, it's all just plain not true.

 

BTW, you're not preachin' to the chior anymore, so my prediction is you will be out of here with your tail between your legs in a day or two; assuming this isn't just a post-and-run.

 

A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

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KH> Then I guess the shoe I described doesn't fit. You seem to be claiming you are not a refugee from the land I described. Fair enough. But I did notice how quickly you accused me of being close-minded despite my insistence that this shoe doesn't fit everyone. That tends to show close-mindedness on your part.

 

I did notice how patronizing you are in your response, that also shows the very emotional nature of this topic. I sympathize.

 

Kevin H

 

Me? Patronizing............? Nevahhhhhhhhh

 

 

Honest... :mellow:

 

 

 

:HaHa:

 

 

What was the point of your post Kevin? I don't know of any ex-cer who left was due to the superficial reasons you took the time to type out. You believe people are leaving because there isn't enough 'meat' in the message, it's bullshit was my point.

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You seem to be claiming you are not a refugee from the land I described.

 

Actually, I am a refugee from the land that you seem to now inhabit - disenchanted with the machine, seeking real answers, wearing birkenstocks...

 

I used to think that the thunder of the "arena" (a metaphor for the loud, bombastic approaches to modern church) was drowning out the voice of God. But what I learned, is that the arena is really all there is. There is no personal god, no reality to the god-man Jesus and no truth to the Christian faith. Christianity is, to quote MacBeth, "a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

 

To hypothesize that ex-Christians are the product of shallow thought and hyper-aggressive marketing may help you feel better - and fill in the void of understanding as to why one could walk away from a faith you so highly esteem. But it is slightly condescending, comes from a place of stubborn presupposition and is ultimately and simply wrong.

 

Perhaps you should consider the fact that beyond the noise, there is not some pure form of God. You may just find - as many of us have - that beyond the noise there is only a silent emptiness.

 

Spoomonkey

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Actually, I am a refugee from the land that you seem to now inhabit - disenchanted with the machine, seeking real answers, wearing birkenstocks...

 

I used to think that the thunder of the "arena" (a metaphor for the loud, bombastic approaches to modern church) was drowning out the voice of God. But what I learned, is that the arena is really all there is. There is no personal god, no reality to the god-man Jesus and no truth to the Christian faith. Christianity is, to quote MacBeth, "a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

 

To hypothesize that ex-Christians are the product of shallow thought and hyper-aggressive marketing may help you feel better - and fill in the void of understanding as to why one could walk away from a faith you so highly esteem. But it is slightly condescending, comes from a place of stubborn presupposition and is ultimately and simply wrong.

 

Perhaps you should consider the fact that beyond the noise, there is not some pure form of God. You may just find - as many of us have - that beyond the noise there is only a silent emptiness.

 

Spoomonkey

 

Very astute Spoomonkey. :notworthy:

 

I should have seen it to as I myself spent several years outside the church looking for the pure form of god.

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Kevin, your disappointment of the plastic-hollywood-christianity makes you almost a candidate for Ex-Christianism too. :)

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Kevin,

 

I believe that your post was sincere and very well thought out. I want to thank you for acknowledging that Ex-Christains do exist, which is more than what many of the Christains who come here do.

 

You seem to be "fed-up" with the Christain machine and are thinking. Though, like you, that wasn't enough reason for us to leave our faith behind.

 

We embraced Christainity for emotional reasons and we left for intellectual ones. The facts do not support Christainity being true. If they did, we'd still be Christians no matter how people trivialize and mass market it.

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That commercialised and fundie form of christianity stinks, it's true. But all it has ever caused me to run away from is fundie christianity.

 

My upbringing was a more liberal form of christianity. What caused me to flee the church? At the time - a desire to not put a barrier between myself and those who I could lead to Christ and a curiosity about paganism and the occult. What caused me to stop being a christian? A long, drawn out journey of truth-seeking, where I used my rationality to figure out what was true and what wasn't about the different world religions.

 

What did I begin to detest about the christianity I used to be part of? The anti-homosexual passages in the Bible, the ridiculous and obscene doctrines about eternal damnation for the unrepentant sinner, the rigid gender roles expected and supported by countless biblical passages, and the requirement to believe in something that just doesn't make sense (an infinite God somehow becoming a finite man without losing his divine nature) otherwise you cannot be saved and go to heaven (as if you can choose what you believe!)

 

Why did I recently become an atheist? Self-honesty and reflection - I realised that if all the facts about the Universe can be explained without needing to invoke a belief in God then there is no need to suggest that such a being might exist (Occam's razor)

 

I did peel back the layers to reveal the meat - I still threw the meat away!

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This is a country of Christendom.

 

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

 

I suppose you've never read the Bill of Rights or the Constitution.

 

One can thrive in this ghetto provided one never experiences heartache, reads a book, pays attention to the Third World, reads the Bible, or thinks.

 

That's pretty much a good description of Xianity in general. One remains a Xian only so long as one does not question it or deal with real-world issues that prove Xianity is an utter farce.

 

Worse, churches large and small, rural and urban, are influenced by this marketing machine that passes for Christianity.

 

Uh, that is Xianity and always has been. Without methods of mass-marketing, Xianity could have never survived. It's all part and parcel of the Great Commission™ after all.

 

Ancient mass marketing was done at the point of a sword, however, but it's the same basic idea.

 

Finally, I've noticed that Ex-Christians who fled or were burned by all this know Evangelical lingo, code words, and expectations. They are as good at giving their "Ex-Christian" testimony as they were giving the Christian one. And they anticipate how Christians will respond. This may prevent honest reflection and dialouge.

 

Actually, the only thing that prevents honest reflection and dialogue is the usual Xian naysaying, ie, that ex-xians do not exist, that we just "want to sin" or that we must believe out of fear of burning in Hell if we're wrong, and so forth. In short, Xians themselves prevent honest reflection and dialogue.

 

Like Taph said, we embraced Xianity for emotional reasons and left for intellectual ones, not the other way around. Many of us were hurt because of Xianity, but many others were not, and simply saw it for the fraud it is.

 

Truth is more important to us, so hence none of us remained Xian.

 

But, as HanSolo said, perhaps you are also a candidate for ex-xianity. You display better thinking than most Xians who troll here, looking to make converts. Unless

 

I did notice how patronizing you are in your response, that also shows the very emotional nature of this topic. I sympathize.

 

Hold on, there. Japedo didn't say a single patronizing thing. Just because you think you have everything figured out, doesn't mean you do. Part and parcel of being Xian, I suppose - I recall being like that too, thinking I knew everyone's motives because I was a Defender of the Faith™ :rolleyes:

 

Lots of Xians waltz on here and try to convert us back into the fold. Virtually none of them have offered a rational argument in defense of their cult or have even bothered to listen to 90% of our arguments - they just stick their fingers in their ears and ignore what is inconvenient for them, which is usually everything anyone else says. And then proceed to tell their god is real just because they believe in him and we're wrong, period.

 

Apparently, you're not nearly as familiar with ex-xian arguments as you are claiming.

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Thinking and reading the bible. Hmmmm. If more Christians actually DID think when they read the bible there would be a lot less Christians. Christians don't "think" when they read the bible. They simple skim over the rape, murder, death, etc and pick the bits that sound reasonably good. They ignore the fairy tales - the dragons, talking donkeys, flying chariots, giants, unicorns, etc and pretend that their idealist fable is reality.

 

KH> A little hasty, but I suspect you've been on the boards long enough to know that. The Bible doesn't approve everything it records. It tells it warts and all.

 

There are no fairy-tale dragons, the donkey was theophanic and not an animal with human vocal chords, the chariot may have been a representational vision, there were some really big dudes (just like today), the Hebrew word for unicorn is "oxen". So I don't think you have a case.

 

Kevin H

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Or here's another theory Kev, it's all just plain not true.

 

BTW, you're not preachin' to the chior anymore, so my prediction is you will be out of here with your tail between your legs in a day or two; assuming this isn't just a post-and-run.

 

A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

 

 

KH> So I guess the post does not describe you.

 

Kevin H

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KH> Then I guess the shoe I described doesn't fit. You seem to be claiming you are not a refugee from the land I described. Fair enough. But I did notice how quickly you accused me of being close-minded despite my insistence that this shoe doesn't fit everyone. That tends to show close-mindedness on your part.

 

I did notice how patronizing you are in your response, that also shows the very emotional nature of this topic. I sympathize.

 

Kevin H

 

Me? Patronizing............? Nevahhhhhhhhh

 

 

Honest... :mellow:

 

 

 

:HaHa:

 

 

What was the point of your post Kevin? I don't know of any ex-cer who left was due to the superficial reasons you took the time to type out. You believe people are leaving because there isn't enough 'meat' in the message, it's bullshit was my point.

 

KH> Food for thought. I do, however, often contemplate whether the culture I've described has affected many people indirectly. Check out my blog at www.ablogogetics.blogspot.com. Please comment there if you wish.

 

Kevin H

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KH> A little hasty, but I suspect you've been on the boards long enough to know that. The Bible doesn't approve everything it records. It tells it warts and all.

 

There are no fairy-tale dragons, the donkey was theophanic and not an animal with human vocal chords, the chariot may have been a representational vision, there were some really big dudes (just like today), the Hebrew word for unicorn is "oxen". So I don't think you have a case.

 

The Bible reads precisely as Jun described. If it were meant to be metaphor, there would be qualifying text stating to take it as such. Since nothing exists in the Bible to say otherwise, logic dictates it was meant to be taken literally.

 

You are the one without a case.

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Or here's another theory Kev, it's all just plain not true.

 

BTW, you're not preachin' to the chior anymore, so my prediction is you will be out of here with your tail between your legs in a day or two; assuming this isn't just a post-and-run.

 

A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

 

 

KH> So I guess the post does not describe you.

 

Kevin H

 

Oh, oh, oh...

 

Touche'

 

:P

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The Bible reads precisely as Jun described. If it were meant to be metaphor, there would be qualifying text stating to take it as such. Since nothing exists in the Bible to say otherwise, logic dictates it was meant to be taken literally.

 

I'd go a bit further than this. I'd ask the question how has the bible been predominately interpreted over the centuries. Not only does it not have a disclaimor, but the vast majority have taken these things literally for millenia. Now Kev comes along having been exposed to 21st century logic and science and has to scramble for alternative explanations for the obviously silly. This is necessary in the current climate, but if it were god's word it should be enduring and past generations shouldn't have all missed the suggested inuendo.

 

I'll put this another way. Kevin is forcing obvious desert religion meanderings to fit his 21st century understanding of how the world works. So not only is Kevin a member of a small minority of True Christians ™ that exist today, but he is lucky enough to be a pioneer in truly understanding what it was that god actually wished to relay to his believers. Lucky him.

 

Biblical scholars feel free to step in and correct me here.

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Haha - well put, Vigile :lmao:

 

Now the truth finally comes out about the Wholly Babble! Now our eyes will be opened and our ears unstopped! Glory be to the True Believers!™

 

And donkeys might fly out of my ass :HaHa:

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Speaking of donkeys...

 

the donkey was theophanic

Actually Numbers 22 does claim that it was the donkey was speaking--it just says that it was god that enabled it.

 

I'm sorry, but that doesn't sound like any less of a fairy tale to me.

 

Gotta say, Balaam's reaction didn't seem terribly credible, either. If a donkey started talking to me, I wouldn't tell it that it had made a fool out of me and start issuing death threats, I'd be pretty darned shocked. Keep in mind that Balaam didn't realize that anything outside of the ordinary, everyday conversation with a donkey was going on until the angel opened his eyes.

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Wow. I'm getting here quite a bit late.

 

American Christianity is reaping the whirlwind of superficiality. Either mass media gives a false impression, or there actually is a growing number of Ex-Christians. And the Christian counter-culture and marketing machine of church-on-every-corner America is producing them.

 

I would love to see more detailed demographic data over time on growth/decline rates of various belief systems by region. I do wonder how the percent of nonreligious persons in America today compares to that in the 1970's. If Christianity in America is declining, I wonder what would be its statistical replacement.

 

While I'd concede that the whole "market Christianity" may turn some people off, I'd wager they're more likely to become "hippie Christians" than anything else. Think about it - you and half of Christian America complain about it, but you haven't left the fold. Christians complain about the commercialization of Christmas, but cry persecution when somebody requests that you not stick the same Christmas tree you just complained about on City Hall property.

 

The marketing of Christianity is representative of American capitalism, but it's also representative of a more disturbing side of Christianity - Christian separatism and Christian supremism. The arrogance, ignorance, hatred, and horrible behavior that also stem from those ideologies is something I'd wager is more likely to truly "turn people off" to Christianity. Even then though, it's not likely to create Atheists or Agnostics. Moral people, however, are likely to be appalled at the egocentric, gay-bashing, bullying, dishonest, hypocritical, hate-filled, arrogant, censorship-forcing, persecution-crying, self-righteous douchebaggery that is so representative of Christianity in America - but even then, many stay in the fold.

 

What really gets people to leave Christianity? A lot of things. Some are bugged by the insistence on denying science and rationality. Some are bugged by their own conscience.

 

This is a country of Christendom. Unfortunately, our affluence and marketing saavy produces religious theme-parks, vacation cruises, guady TV shows, Christian dentist offices complete with a fish on the drill, restaurants where the waitress gives her testimony before taking your order ("I'll have the Noah's Ark Platter"), Born Again Used Cars, Maranatha Insurance, Christian Brothers Auto Repair, Christian Donuts, Christian Day at Six Flags, Creation Museums, Christian Diet Plans, and sloganeering T-shirts. Everything I just described is real. And it's ten miles wide and one inch deep.

 

Okay, the fish-drill just scared the hell out of me. o.O

 

Again, I bring up Christian separatism. The reason that these businesses exist is because so many Christians consider themselves separate from, and superior to, "the world." May I point out the number of Christian doctors who refuse to treat patients for religious reasons? One example was the Christian doctor who let a 3-year old girl suffer with an ear infection because her mother had tattoos. Businesses can't supply without demand, and there are leagues of Christian supermacists in this country willing to buy anything with a Jesus fish on it - including dental drills.

 

One can thrive in this ghetto provided one never experiences heartache, reads a book, pays attention to the Third World, reads the Bible, or thinks.

 

I know people in that world who read plenty of books - all from the Christian bookstores. They think the third world isn't as blessed as we are because it isn't as Christian as we are. They read the Bible - the same parts over and over - usually the ones talking about how the enemies will be defeated. It's not shallowness - it's separatism.

 

The blessings of free market enterprise can generate noise and fury, but no substance. The top-ten best-sellers in Christian bookstores are consistently books on how to get blessings, purchased by people who are unbelievably blessed.

 

... people who believe they deserve to be still more blessed. The whole "prosperity gospel" caters to Christian supremacists - telling them that they should all be millionaires because they're better than "the world."

 

I am convinced that the evacuation from this pseudo-world is what is occuring among multitudes of sincere people. And actually, this can be a good thing if one is willing to peel the layers to get to the meat.

 

But you're assuming that everyone likes that "meat." You're assuming because you believe it and you like it that anyone who does not is simply ignorant or deceived. This isn't a black and white area - there are an abundance of real, rational reasons for rejection of Christianity that have nothing to do with being "turned off" by marketing.

 

What is responsible for this mentality? In brief, an anti-intellectual, touchy-feely spirituality that has been growing since the end of World War II, culminating in various charismatic movements, "name it claim it" Word of Faith churches, and mega-churches.

 

The turn-off has to be the marketing? Not the anti-intellectualism? The arrogance? The lack of a true sense of ethics?

 

Finally, I've noticed that Ex-Christians who fled or were burned by all this know Evangelical lingo, code words, and expectations. They are as good at giving their "Ex-Christian" testimony as they were giving the Christian one. And they anticipate how Christians will respond. This may prevent honest reflection and dialouge.

 

Check out the testimonies on this site. The people here range from former Pentecostals to former Catholics to former horse-and-buggy Mennonites. I doubt that you'd say the latter has been affected by Christian marketing.

 

If this shoe fits anyone here, I am truly, terribly saddened by it.

 

What are your reactions when people leave Christianity for other reasons?

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Interesting OP there, Kevin H...

 

You seem to be hand-wringing over xian entrepreneurialism on one hand, but trying to justify the xian memes with the other.

Well, ol' pal, let me put you wise. Religion is an industry. There's a market for it, because it promises something fantastic in return for the investment. Where that scenario exists, there will always be entrepreneurs who will take advantage of it, bilking the masses for all they're worth. Which in too many cases, isn't much. It's been that way for 2000 years. Like Paul in the very beginning, and like Benny Hinn and his ilk today. P.T. Barnum with the Wholly Babble in hand, banging away on it, driving the gullible into an emotional frenzy. Nowadays, it's the likes of Ernest Angley, Benny Hinn, W.T. Grant, and so on. In years past it was Aimee Semple McPherson and Billy Sunday. And like that recently-opened Monument to Stupidity in Louisville, the "Creation Museum". Give me a break!. And you lament all of this? It's all about the money, man! It's Las Vegas glitz on a baptismal font. It's Atlantic City speaking in tongues. It's Jebus, Inc. And all tax-advantaged, don't forget.

 

But hey. Let's get serious. We didn't leave xianity over that. When we were xians, we likely didn't even take notice, because we were so caught up in our salvation, in our commission to "spread the good news", in our desire to "serve the lard", etc. etc. But when we asked questions, and didn't get answers that made sense, we started to do some serious investigation. We looked into "real" cultural history, comparative religions, and put to work some simple common-sense reasoning. THAT is how we got out of xianity. We concluded that Jebus is nothing but a myth, he never existed, there is no "salvation" necessary, there is no "hell" for those who don't eat the jebus mushroom, and you know what? Life became much better. Some of us went atheist, some deist, some pagan, but what is most important is that we defined a new way to believe or disbelieve.

 

Sounds like you're really having some questioning thoughts within yourself. Well, my friend, you've come to the right place. We won't support your christian belief, we'll challenge it. But if you stay, you'll grow, one way or the other.

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Ahhh fuck it. I need another fucking apologist this week like I need a new arsehole...

 

Go die in a cold place, in great pain, of something both disfiguring and foul smelling, alone.

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Fleeing?

 

Hmmm...

 

Some various thoughts that are bouncing around:

 

Suspect now my excape is going on its second and a half decades worth of going my own way, hard to remember those things and specific passions that tied me to the sunday_go_to_meetin' bunches.

 

Will say this Kevin, (obtw, another Kevin this end of electronic string) one of the best things I found about *church* was a fairly willing group of young willing wimmins who were all eager to get me to ditch the Hawg, cut my chin cactus, whack the ponytail, and quit cussing. Booze, well nevr drank enough in public to be slapped around for.. Payment for those "improvements" on my body were right good for it..

 

Anyway, nineteen pounds of ponytail, nine inches of beard, and hanging around the *youth* of the various AoG assemblies as I moved from job to job was interesting.

 

Now that I am out, older, dunno *wiser*, but a lot more miles between them and I, the life, style and plan of christendom is a frightening slice of mind and body control which conforming to could never happen.

 

If I so desire health and welfare companionship, club atmospheres, pressing of flesh with like minded folks, I'll join the Elks, Moose, or Lions.

 

Religion bears too harsh a social contract for me, mine, and those whom I can influence to bear. Conformity no matter what sect is the ultimate thing. You will be assimilated to be *in*. Or you will forever be outside the "Club" no matter ow hard you work to get in.

 

I prefer to be a grouchy opinionated un-allied, un-attached, choose my own friends Freeman. I will no long allow myself or mine to bow before black robed and suited whores of the gods. If such happens I will be physically restrained and compelled by force to acknowledge their supremacy.

Until they, in a Heinlein-esque "Revolt in 2100" Rev. Scudder senario, take that kind of control, there will be their hell to pay for molesting Freemen and -women.

 

Religion is fine for the needy believer. They need to, and should be obligated to keep their superstitions to themselves.

 

Until religion is removed from our political life, we as a Nation(s) (uS and Occidental Allies) will continue this mad rush to an armageddon-esque destruction of the world we are so far required to live on.

 

Religious folks speaking their evanga- or funda-code language are fun to listen to, they speak as specialized a sprecche as any other profession or preference. Learning the code allows those of we on the outside to translate the various "Godspeak-as-pure-bullshit" for what it is. Useless catch phrases that allow the sectarians to say things that feel as though there is meaning, but void of action and substance.

 

Not sure what else I can ramble on about. Broadcasting work is fun, both on the board and behind the mike.

 

kFL

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