Questions Regarding To The Bible-anyone Got It?

[perianwalsh]

is anyone researching on the bible origins?btw

I am currently research on the new testament origins.On beezelbub,hades i am pretty sure..but till several questions I still have some problem though

1. the holy spirit-where does it comes from?It seems like pop up from nowhere-where does the holy spirit comes up and form the trinity

2.Does the cursings of fig trees,bringing up sword,got any origins?From any other legends?

 

I ask this questions before,especially about the holy spirit,but i still doesnt got satisfying Answers.i think I am missing something here.

[mwc]

1. the holy spirit-where does it comes from?It seems like pop up from nowhere-where does the holy spirit comes up and form the trinity

I doubt you'll ever find a specific answer anywhere that you can simply point to and say "Aha!" That said the HS most likely just originates in the many references of the spirit of god in the older texts (god gives someone his spirit, they were taken up by the spirit and so on).

 

The actual trinity doctrine comes from the Council of Nicea many years later but it's really no surprise since triads in worship are really very ancient (the Egyptians, for example, almost always worshiped a triad throughout their history and the Romans did as well at the time the council met...not having a triad/trinity was really the strange thing). So YHWH/Father, Jesus/Son/Wisdom and HS/spirit form the trinity/triad of gods. For pagans this would be an easy transition. Now the politics behind all this isn't as straight forward as I make it out to be. Lots of fighting, killing, etc., but since the emperor made the ultimate call anyhow this is sort of what it boiled down to.

 

2.Does the cursings of fig trees,bringing up sword,got any origins?From any other legends?

This all depends on how you want to interpret it.

 

Seriously. To believers it was all unique and foreshadows all sorts of things but much of it appears to have been "borrowed." How much exactly and from where is where the debate arises. For example, let's say the person writing the story was "borrowing" a story from Greece (I'm not saying they were or weren't...this is a generic example to make a point) and in that story it was an olive tree that is cursed and dies away. The fig tree is "better" in Israel so the author changes it from olive to fig along with a few other things. Now even though the stories are similar they aren't identical so it's impossible to say the author had the Greek olive tree story on his desk when he wrote his version. If we could find a document that had both (with notes like "a fig tree would work better here") then that would give the smoking gun needed but until then you'll only find a overwhelming amount of stories that are earlier and very similar to those in the bible (old and new testaments).

 

Anyhow, more to your point, I can't recall a specific story that is the cursing of the fig tree. There might have been one and it is now lost to history (or temporarily misplaced). I'm afraid I don't know what you are referring to when you say "bringing up sword" so I can't help you there.

 

mwc

[perianwalsh]

I'm afraid I don't know what you are referring to when you say "bringing up sword" so I can't help you there.

I mean jesus says he wasnt bring peace to the world ,but to bring a sword,and making father against son,mother against daughter

 

I doubt you'll ever find a specific answer anywhere that you can simply point to and say "Aha!" That said the HS most likely just originates in the many references of the spirit of god in the older texts (god gives someone his spirit, they were taken up by the spirit and so on).

i guess you are right[sighs!]

 

If its' really about the fig tree ,I mean if it's like what you have presented it would have been easy to solve my questions..well anyway

 

I guess my questions i would have to bring to the bible geek.Thanks mwc-I like your extent of knowledge.

[mwc]

I'm afraid I don't know what you are referring to when you say "bringing up sword" so I can't help you there.

I mean jesus says he wasnt bring peace to the world ,but to bring a sword,and making father against son,mother against daughter

Off the top of my head I would say this is original this mythology but since he also said he came to unite and that turning against your brother is the same as murder that it is not from the same author/group that wrote the other. During this time period a number of theologies were going around. In fact, if the Romans weren't there, a civil war (sectarian war?) would have likely ripped through that entire region. The introduction of the "jesus doctrine" could have pulled families apart if only some of the family members accepted it but so could have any two competing doctrines. Look in Iraq today. If one household suddenly had Sunni and Shia members in it there could be chaos and very possibly bloodshed or other violence. Does this mean that Islam is real or the beliefs are deeply held and emotions can cause violent reactions? Then, like now, it's the latter. The "jesus doctrine" failed to unite and actually divided households. As a result "jesus" said it would (likely in a late insertion) to keep his followers from falling away when they met resistance at home.

 

i guess you are right[sighs!]

It can be upsetting knowing you'll probably never get that perfect answer you're looking for but that's just how history works. Academics know this but unfortunately but the time it reaches most of us "normal" folks it sounds like they've reached absolute conclusions (that's very rare) when it is really more about consensus. Just keep plugging away because you could be the one that sways the consensus with some new theory.

 

If its' really about the fig tree ,I mean if it's like what you have presented it would have been easy to solve my questions..well anyway

The fig tree is representative of Israel but I'm not aware of it being used in the manner used in the synoptics elsewhere. Trees, especially the fig, were important to the region and were used in a number of agricultural myths and by extension their gods. The tree was also an important source of shade and any number of other products (depending on the species). These fig trees are very large so for it to die so quickly would be impressive. Jesus says the tree was just about to give fruit but it was a little too early so he curses it dead. This could mean the kingdom of god was just about to make an appearance but Israel, on the verge of showing fruit, gets cursed instead (not a god-man move but a prophet move which was jesus' other role). Israel dies quite quickly at the hands of the Romans after that. It's easy to write prophesy after the fact though which is what these authors did. Remember one of the big complaints at that time is that Israel was killing off all of its prophets (prophecy was supposedly gone until the end times...so here we have the return of the prophets, John the Baptist comes first, and a story of a "big" prophet like Elijah that predicts the death of all Israel if they don't accept his teachings...and they kill him on a cross...oops).

 

I guess my questions i would have to bring to the bible geek.Thanks mwc-I like your extent of knowledge.

You're welcome. I'm always glad I can help.

 

mwc

[Luke Wolf]

1. the holy spirit-where does it comes from?It seems like pop up from nowhere-where does the holy spirit comes up and form the trinity

The Holy Ghost is actually more predominate in Jewish teachings. While it does suddenly appear from no where in the Bible, it is a major entity in Judaism. The Holy Ghost is one of my trump cards in proving Christianity was established for nothing more than reasons of greed. The Holy Ghost is simple not mentioned until after Christ's resurrection, and he tells his followers they will be filled with the spirit of the Holy Ghost. Had those who founded Christianity not mentioned the Holy Ghost, at least in some of a somewhat significant manner, there would be no way they could have claimed Christ to be the promised Messiah of the Jews, as the Holy Ghost is too important of a character in Judaism to ignore. Also, a very small percentage of the population back then could read, so the inconsistencies, contradictions, and extreme differences between Judaism and Christianity would not have mattered, since only those in charge could read and study the Bible. I have other theories to support this, backed by stuff the church could do, and did do, but that is going more off topic than I am going to go making back up points.

Another point of interest, that while Christianity gives the holy ghost a male aspect, in all reality, to the Jews, who had it first, the Holy Ghost is female. But since Christianity is overly patriarchal, they will never admit that a female fills in for one of the main positions. In all honesty, I'm sure if it was somehow possible for a man to give birth by some rare genetic "burp," the early church would have had another Mark, Max, or some other male figure that gave birth to Christ, rather than a woman.

Slightly off topic, but points to be stressed, females are not equated to dirt in Judaism. Rather, they are seen as being the better of the two genders. They acknowledge the hassles and pains of being a woman, and they respect that, rather than seeing them as dirty, and only being there for taking care of the house, giving the man sexual pleasure, and giving birth. Assuming the genetic "burp" to be an actual condition, the Jews would still have a virgin woman giving birth to Christ, as a man simple would not be worthy of giving birth to the savior of there people.

Actually, a law in Judaism, is that the men are required to give there wives sexual pleasure whenever they want it. And, even thought the Torah does contain the first five books of the Bible, and much more, the Jews and Christians are as much the same as Christians and Muslims. They believe in the same god, some of the same characters, have a few of the same morals, but everything else is entirely different.

 

2.Does the cursings of fig trees,bringing up sword,got any origins?From any other legends?

The fig trees, I do believe may have been a messiac prophesy. Allthough, it was more to impress primitive man, and have there new savior have a complete domination over even the land. Again, most people couldn't read or study the Bible to realise this story shows the "savior" to have a very short temper, and be just as uneducated as they were.

For the swords, in early Christianity, they were seen as representatives of a cross, which is a symbol of purity and holiness. While the notion of a sword being a cross is absurd, to a man who would have not known that swords are ancient tools, used by several cultures throughout the world, it would have seemed logical. It was simple to be more controlling, and showing Jesus was all holy. "The word of god is unto like a two edged sword" is another verse that backs up the sword being a holy symbol.

As for being stories that originated from previous culture, I have not found anything on them. I think I have saw something similar to the fig tree, possible from Gilgamesh, which has many of the bible stories in there earliest form, but I am not sure on that.

[perianwalsh]

hey,luke,i cant give u a fast response-i am still trying to rethink about your post

[perianwalsh]

gist of a feather--that's the exact title i ask in a forum before i left xtianity!!