Prove Skankboy's Got A Soul!

[Skankboy]

I was reading a couple of the threads today and was thinking how much of Christianity relies not only on the existence of god, but on the soul as well. Indeed, without a soul, all of Christianity because meaningless, even if there was a god.

 

No soul = no heaven, no hell, nothing to redeem, etc.

 

That being said, I have never claimed it's possible to prove there isn't a god of some kind. I don't personally believe there is, but it's just that, a belief.

 

Here's the challenge: Convince me I've got a soul. Until this can be proven in some reasonable way, I don't believe Christianity (nor many of the other religions) have any right telling me what is supposed to be happening to it after I die (and by association, how I should live my life in this world).

 

So there you have it. I'm not saying I'll become a Christian or even a theist, but I'm willing to hear what you've got and I'll be as honest in my responses as I can possibly be.

 

Thanks,

[tdsurf]

I agree with your first point, Christianity completely relies on the existence of an eternal soul. The Bible clearly states this, if Christ is not risen then your faith is in vain.

 

Of course, nobody can "convince" you that you have a soul. That is preposterous, but you already know it. What I hear from you is that you desire somebody could "prove" it to you.

 

That is because like all human beings, from all cultures, world views, educational levels, experiences and walks of life, you have an inner sense or intuition that there is more value to your existense than simply 70 some years of living. You have an inner voice that asks "how do I exist?" which is primarily what seperates you from the animal kingdom.

[Thackerie]

Nobody can "convince" you that you have a soul. That is preposterous, but you already know it. What I hear from you is that you desire somebody could "prove" it to you.

 

That is because like all human beings, from all cultures, world views, educational levels, experiences and walks of life, you have an inner sense or intuition that there is more value to your existense than simply 70 some years of living. You have an inner voice that asks "how do I exist?" which is primarily what seperates you from the animal kingdom.

 

 

How do you know that "intuition" is a product of something called a soul and not a function of the highly evolved human brain? If there is a soul, how do you explain the loss of memory and changes in personality experienced by many people who have suffered trauma to the brain or an illness such as alzheimers? In such cases, if there were such a thing as a soul, wouldn't it be able to take over and compensate for the brain injury?

 

And, finally, how do you know that no other member of the animal kingdom experience "inner voices"?

[tdsurf]

Nobody can "convince" you that you have a soul. That is preposterous, but you already know it. What I hear from you is that you desire somebody could "prove" it to you.

 

That is because like all human beings, from all cultures, world views, educational levels, experiences and walks of life, you have an inner sense or intuition that there is more value to your existense than simply 70 some years of living. You have an inner voice that asks "how do I exist?" which is primarily what seperates you from the animal kingdom.

 

 

How do you know that "intuition" is a product of something called a soul and not a function of the highly evolved human brain? If there is a soul, how do you explain the loss of memory and changes in personality experienced by many people who have suffered trauma to the brain or an illness such as alzheimers? In such cases, if there were such a thing as a soul, wouldn't it be able to take over and compensate for the brain injury?

 

And, finally, how do you know that no other member of the animal kingdom experience "inner voices"?

 

Just so you know where I am coming from, I lean towards the theory that the "soul" and the "spirit" are two different things, and that your soul is seperated from God's spirit as a result of sin, causing a longing or desire within man. The desire for a spirit is part of the "highly evolved brain" or soul which lacks this missing ingredient.

 

I believe memory and personality are functions of the brain. I believe the brain can through training become attune to the spirit of God but that we do not generally experience spirit consciousness apart from God's revelation. It is an matter of whether the soul responds to the revelation or not. I don't believe the soul can fully be free from the sin effect in this life.

 

Can you explain why would a "highly evolved brain" universally seek and desire something that does not exist and therefore experience an emptiness and longing as a result? Don't most ex-xtians believe religion is in reality detrimental to man's survival, like a mental illness or something to that effect? Can you explain why highly evolved man has not shed the longing for religion if it has no benefits?

 

Animals: It is assumed that the basis of discovery is to first ask questions. How about you explain how and which animals exhibit thoughts similar to man.

[Deva]

I believe memory and personality are functions of the brain. I believe the brain can through training become attune to the spirit of God but that we do not generally experience spirit consciousness apart from God's revelation. It is an matter of whether the soul responds to the revelation or not. I don't believe the soul can fully be free from the sin effect in this life.

 

Can you explain why would a "highly evolved brain" universally seek and desire something that does not exist and therefore experience an emptiness and longing as a result? Don't most ex-xtians believe religion is in reality detrimental to man's survival, like a mental illness or something to that effect? Can you explain why highly evolved man has not shed the longing for religion if it has no benefits?

 

Animals: It is assumed that the basis of discovery is to first ask questions. How about you explain how and which animals exhibit thoughts similar to man.

 

tdsurf: Just a few questions, if you don't mind.

 

You admit that memory and personality are functions of the brain. OK. According to Christian teaching the soul is aware and conscious after death of the brain. How would you explain that? Does something else material form that carries the memory and personality. If you have neither, what do you have?

 

You speak of "God's revelation" and say "I don't believe the soul can fully be free from the sin effect in this life". Could you be more specific -- is the Bible the "revelation" you are talking about? Are all souls tainted by sin? Is its effect to separate humans from God? If so, how can a human ever get a revelation in the first place?

 

I question the phrase "highly evolved" when applied in a general sense to humans. Aren't human beings just as evolved as every other form of life they share this planet with today?

 

I just am asking because I am curious as to what you are saying and don't quite understand it.

[tdsurf]

tdsurf: Just a few questions, if you don't mind.

 

You admit that memory and personality are functions of the brain. OK. According to Christian teaching the soul is aware and conscious after death of the brain. How would you explain that? Does something else material form that carries the memory and personality. If you have neither, what do you have?

 

You speak of "God's revelation" and say "I don't believe the soul can fully be free from the sin effect in this life". Could you be more specific -- is the Bible the "revelation" you are talking about? Are all souls tainted by sin? Is its effect to separate humans from God? If so, how can a human ever get a revelation in the first place?

 

I question the phrase "highly evolved" when applied in a general sense to humans. Aren't human beings just as evolved as every other form of life they share this planet with today?

 

I just am asking because I am curious as to what you are saying and don't quite understand it.

 

Hi DevaLight, I don't know where the delineation between soul and spirit is. Jesus did teach that after death we have awareness or memory of earth and loved ones (Lazarus and the rich man). Neither do I believe in "soul sleep" like JWs do. I've wondered what happens to the consciousness during sleep, coma, stroke victims etc, and that topic is what leads me to think that much of our personality or awareness is part of the physical brain. Maybe not all of it, I can't say. What do you think?

 

Yes I mean the Bible primarily. I think there is both a basic revelation we can receive from the universe and a deeper revelation comes from Christ. I believe we are accountable on judgement day for what knowledge we have available to us, not what we dont know. (I anticipate you are asking about aborigines etc) I believe you can enter heaven even though you never heard the gospel, but the gospel will put you on one side or the other.

 

I don't think of humans as highly evolved, I am trying to speak on (Thackerie's) terms.

 

Appreciate the opportunity to explain what I think and define terminology before getting jumped all over. I'm not a typical Christian and don't subscribe to everything the masses do. I see life as a journey and if we think we have arrived at all knowledge then we lose the battle. I'm not fully convinced that man is two parts, three parts or one. God isn't necessarily a "Trinity" either and the Bible doesn't spell it out.

[white_raven23]

That is because like all human beings, from all cultures, world views, educational levels, experiences and walks of life, you have an inner sense or intuition that there is more value to your existense than simply 70 some years of living. You have an inner voice that asks "how do I exist?" which is primarily what seperates you from the animal kingdom.

 

How do YOU know that the animal kindgom does not possess an "inner voice"?

 

How does human ego....an extention of the survival instinct...(that which places value on one's own life) prove there is a "soul"? It doesn't. It proves the human has an ego.

[Deva]

Hi DevaLight, I don't know where the delineation between soul and spirit is. Jesus did teach that after death we have awareness or memory of earth and loved ones (Lazarus and the rich man). Neither do I believe in "soul sleep" like JWs do. I've wondered what happens to the consciousness during sleep, coma, stroke victims etc, and that topic is what leads me to think that much of our personality or awareness is part of the physical brain. Maybe not all of it, I can't say. What do you think?

 

I appreciate your answering my questions. I have always thought that consciousness survives the death of the body, but know I can't prove it. I would not use the word "soul". Logically, if consciousness only is present in an individual's brain then when that organ dies, there is nothing. Question is, is it only local? Is it a shared consciousness somehow? These are questions I have wondered about. Do you see a possiblity of reincarnation or rebirth?

 

Where we part company is when you speak of the Bible and Christ being special revelation in some deep way. I don't see it as being that special. It seems to be riddled with errors and contradictions.

 

If you think that all humans are "tainted with sin" how are they capable of transmitting a revelation given from God? Wouldn't something get lost in translation? This whole issue of revelation could take us far afield, but I am afraid we will not be able to get past it. I wasn't really talking about accountability of people knowing or not knowing the particular revelation, I was talking about the feasiblity of a revelation in the first place.

[tdsurf]

That is because like all human beings, from all cultures, world views, educational levels, experiences and walks of life, you have an inner sense or intuition that there is more value to your existense than simply 70 some years of living. You have an inner voice that asks "how do I exist?" which is primarily what seperates you from the animal kingdom.

 

How do YOU know that the animal kindgom does not possess an "inner voice"?

 

How does human ego....an extention of the survival instinct...(that which places value on one's own life) prove there is a "soul"? It doesn't. It proves the human has an ego.

 

Oh, it sounds like you equate yourself with a dog or a monkey or...? Simply a more highly developed "survival instinct" and that's it?

 

My guess is some people ask bigger questions than others do.

[Legion]

Skankboy, my guess is that you do have a sole. If you have at least one foot then you will also have a sole. If you are lucky enough to still possess both feet then you have two soles.

 

 

My guess is some people ask bigger questions than others do.

 

Oh goodness. If you get White Raven going Tdsurf she is garanteed to rip you a new one.

[white_raven23]

That is because like all human beings, from all cultures, world views, educational levels, experiences and walks of life, you have an inner sense or intuition that there is more value to your existense than simply 70 some years of living. You have an inner voice that asks "how do I exist?" which is primarily what seperates you from the animal kingdom.

 

How do YOU know that the animal kindgom does not possess an "inner voice"?

 

How does human ego....an extention of the survival instinct...(that which places value on one's own life) prove there is a "soul"? It doesn't. It proves the human has an ego.

 

Oh, it sounds like you equate yourself with a dog or a monkey or...? Simply a more highly developed "survival instinct" and that's it?

 

My guess is some people ask bigger questions than others do.

 

 

LOL!!!

 

I have seen many a dog express a deeper love and a deeper selflessness than MANY a human being could muster beyond their own petty egocentric lives. To be compared to that....would be a compliment.

http://www.strike-the-root.com/71/allport/allport13.html

Here...a piece of that which you clearly only see as a smelly creature slobbering on the carpet.

 

As for being compared to a monkey....perhaps you think to insult me as well? Cannot look beyond those trapped and confined shit-slingers at the zoo eh?

Those "beasts" gave us our first evidence of the necessity of LOVE in the raising of humans.

http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~adoption/studies/HarlowMLE.htm

 

 

And while you sniff and sneer at my question..mocking it's "size"...I note that you still did not answer it. It was still too "big" for you I suppose.

 

It's not the size of the question, but whether or not it's answered that matters.

 

Give me the honest loyal dog over one such as you any day. At least a dog displays true when it is confunded.

 

I kind of hope you don't have pets. But then....at least from a pet you will get the closest thing you will ever truly get to the kind of relationship you seek from your invisible sky daddy. But I doubt you appreciate it. Oh well, your pet will love you whether I think you deserve it or not.

[Antlerman]

Skankboy, my guess is that you do have a sole. If you have at least one foot then you will also have a sole. If you are lucky enough to still possess both feet then you have two soles.

 

 

My guess is some people ask bigger questions than others do.

 

Oh goodness. If you get White Raven going Tdsurf she is garanteed to rip you a new one.

And when she does, it gets me all insane with mad desire I can scarcely control! But before I become all distracted by the exquisite sounds of the impending carnivorous feasting:

 

That is because like all human beings, from all cultures, world views, educational levels, experiences and walks of life, you have an inner sense or intuition that there is more value to your existense than simply 70 some years of living. You have an inner voice that asks "how do I exist?" which is primarily what seperates you from the animal kingdom.

Cart before the horse? Are you so certain this “inner sense” is universal that our existence has value beyond our lifespan? I am fairly certain there are many cultures isolated from Western ideas that see life vastly different than you do. I would contend that this “inner voice” is cultural programming. But when someone doesn’t consider that, then filling the gap with an idea of magic-like sky beings influencing our thoughts on an “intuitive” level, will works as a place-holder for knowledge until such a time as we have a better understanding.

 

This is the nature of how superstitions work and spread and influence perception. It’s also why I don’t fill gaps of knowledge with supernatural explanations. Whenever that done, it always turns out to not have been necessary and was a waste of time and energy that could have been better spent figuring out real causes.

 

So you think we are separate from the animal kingdom? In what way? Is it that we can’t breath underwater? Perhaps that we can’t fly? Is it that we drive cars and they don’t? Exactly which one of our abilities or disabilities makes us “separate from the animal kingdom”? I honestly can’t think of one. Last I checked, I had the same basic body plan as them, and not a leg made of celery with Patrick Duffy as a foot. I am not a cartoon character made in the image of the mind of Matt Stone and Trey Parker, or God on the sixth day.

 

What do you mean by that statement? That we consider our own existence? Does this make us not part of the animal kindgdom? I don't see it. That act is simply a level of abstract thought, and abstract thought is not unique to humans. How do you know exactly what a chimpanze may ponder? You KNOW what his inner thoughts are? How? Do you believe that primates function solely by intuition like a tape worm? I don't. They reason. We reason. So that "distinction" is not as wide as you may suspect. No surprise considering how much we are related genetically. You do accept that as scientifically valid, don't you?

 

To me if anything makes us less than animals it is our arrogance to suppose we are the best creatures on this planet, and that God created us special, seperate from animals - even though we still are. If there is such a thing as sin, that's it.

[white_raven23]

To me if anything makes us less than animals is our arrogance to suppose we are best creature on this planet, and that God created us special. If there is such a thing as sin, that's it.

 

He's quite the speciesist. He'd be doing much better in this discussion to claim that WE are making the best possible argument for human souls by implying somewhat that other animals have souls.

 

Soul or no soul, cows and fish are tasty.

And we are here to enjoy them thanks to the Mind that developed over time to overcome the more obvious advantages of fang, fur, and claw....because Mankind used to actually USE it, there is now room for the sustained vicarious parasitic existence of species members who do NOT.

[tdsurf]

That is because like all human beings, from all cultures, world views, educational levels, experiences and walks of life, you have an inner sense or intuition that there is more value to your existense than simply 70 some years of living. You have an inner voice that asks "how do I exist?" which is primarily what seperates you from the animal kingdom.

 

How do YOU know that the animal kindgom does not possess an "inner voice"?

 

How does human ego....an extention of the survival instinct...(that which places value on one's own life) prove there is a "soul"? It doesn't. It proves the human has an ego.

 

Oh, it sounds like you equate yourself with a dog or a monkey or...? Simply a more highly developed "survival instinct" and that's it?

 

My guess is some people ask bigger questions than others do.

 

 

LOL!!!

 

I have seen many a dog express a deeper love and a deeper selflessness than MANY a human being could muster beyond their own petty egocentric lives. To be compared to that....would be a compliment.

http://www.strike-the-root.com/71/allport/allport13.html

Here...a piece of that which you clearly only see as a smelly creature slobbering on the carpet.

 

As for being compared to a monkey....perhaps you think to insult me as well? Cannot look beyond those trapped and confined shit-slingers at the zoo eh?

Those "beasts" gave us our first evidence of the necessity of LOVE in the raising of humans.

http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~adoption/studies/HarlowMLE.htm

 

 

And while you sniff and sneer at my question..mocking it's "size"...I note that you still did not answer it. It was still too "big" for you I suppose.

 

 

I absolutely dont mean to insult, sneer or mock your question. I thought I gave a respectful response and I left it to you to explain your views. As you pointed out, dogs and monkeys are not exactly the lowest of life forms and exhibit some almost human traits. If you believe humans are no different than animals than you should be unashamed to say so.

 

As far as the "size" issue as you put it, if you really believe that animals exhibit curiousity anywhere near the level of humans... I am at a loss for words.

[white_raven23]

I absolutely dont mean to insult, sneer or mock your question.

 

 

Really?

Oh, it sounds like you equate yourself with a dog or a monkey or...? Simply a more highly developed "survival instinct" and that's it?

 

My guess is some people ask bigger questions than others do.

 

Everything in red MOCKS MY QUESTION. Did I just fall into a mindwarp? How is what you wrote not insulting or mocking?

 

I thought I gave a respectful response and I left it to you to explain your views. As you pointed out, dogs and monkeys are not exactly the lowest of life forms and exhibit some almost human traits.

 

You did not answer the question. A "response" to my post is NOT the same as answering the question within said post. And assuming a size to my question was not respectful.

 

And let's not forget....didn't answer the question.

 

If you believe humans are no different than animals than you should be unashamed to say so.

 

It's not a matter of belief. it's a matter of fact. We share DNA with animals. It doesn't even matter the percentage of DNA involved! If humans really were "above" and "apart" from the animal kingdom, there wouldn't be any sharage at all! we'd be as related as animals and iron ore.

As far as the "size" issue as you put it, if you really believe that animals exhibit curiousity anywhere near the level of humans... I am at a loss for words.

Yes. My cat's are certainly a lot more curious about my nostrils in the middle of the night than I am. And mother's cockatiel takes a lot more interest in the amount of space between my hair and my neck than I do.

 

I've seem moose exhibit a lot more curiosity about things in my front yard than I ever take the time to notice. They know what the rosebushes taste like...I don't.

 

As for amount of curiosity, I'd say it's about the same....trying to assign a quality value comparing the curiosty of different species is biased and unfair.

[mwc]

Jesus did teach that after death we have awareness or memory of earth and loved ones (Lazarus and the rich man).

This is just a variation on the concept of "shades" in Hades (where the rich man and Lazarus were in there story). The "consciousness" following a person to the "afterlife" is an extremely ancient concept predating this story by probably at least 2500 years (I know the idea exists in the pyramid texts from Egypt).

 

Depending on your interpretation of some of the stories in Genesis when "blessings" are given from one person to the next, it is the person themselves that are passing along their "essence" (their "soul" or "spirit") to another person (which is how someone could "steal" a blessing leaving nothing for the other person...the "essence" was literally drained away from the originator of the blessing). This later turned into a god that would infuse people with power instead of people passing along their own power directly. The theology adopted this belief that all blessings came from their god instead of certain people simply being born "infused" with the "essence" and that this "essence" could be passed along.

 

However, in the story of the woman who couldn't stop her menstrual bleeding, she "stole" some of jesus' "essence" by simply touching him so the idea wasn't entirely forgotten but reworked.

 

Anyhow, the concepts of "soul" and "spirit" are long and complicated. We have simplified them considerably today for the common consumer but the ancients had a very sophisticated way of looking at them (Egyptologists still don't truly understand their system from what I've read). What I do know is that the system has been evolving for many, many centuries to the point it is at today. That alone says the concept is fluid and human in origin (as god's concepts are supposedly "fixed").

 

As far as Skankboy goes...I don't know if he's got rhythm or soul. That remains to be seen.

 

mwc

[Skankboy]

Firstly, thank you tdsurf and everyone else for your responses. Though I've been with this site through several severs (I'm not even sure how long it's been now), I rarely start topics and am pleased at the amount of responses I've gotten.

 

I thought it might be beneficial to through out some definitions of "soul" to help facilitate the discussion. Without common understanding, there can be no progress. Here's what I got from dictionary.com:

 

soul /soʊl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sohl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation,

–noun 1. the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in humans, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body, and commonly held to be separable in existence from the body; the spiritual part of humans as distinct from the physical part.

2. the spiritual part of humans regarded in its moral aspect, or as believed to survive death and be subject to happiness or misery in a life to come: arguing the immortality of the soul.

3. the disembodied spirit of a deceased person: He feared the soul of the deceased would haunt him.

4. the emotional part of human nature; the seat of the feelings or sentiments.

5. a human being; person.

6. high-mindedness; noble warmth of feeling, spirit or courage, etc.

7. the animating principle; the essential element or part of something.

8. the inspirer or moving spirit of some action, movement, etc.

9. the embodiment of some quality: He was the very soul of tact.

10. (initial capital letter) Christian Science. God; the divine source of all identity and individuality.

11. shared ethnic awareness and pride among black people, esp. black Americans.

12. deeply felt emotion, as conveyed or expressed by a performer or artist.

 

tdsurf - I would assume from what you've written so far that one of the first 4 definitions (or possibly a combination of them) would fit your definition. Please let me know if I'm far off on this.

 

As for possible proofs for the soul, you seem to site self-awareness, curiosity and some kind of "universal longing". Specifically that these qualities are not shared by the animal kingdom or if they do share some of them, not to the extent that humans do. Again, please let me know if I'm misunderstanding your argument so far.

 

Self-awareness: Many animals exibit various levels of self awareness. It's a very tricky thing to test for, as communication acrossed species is nigh impossible, but one test I've seen that strongly suggests such an attribute is being able to recognize your own reflection in a mirror. Put a mirror in a bird cage and the bird thinks there's 2 birds in the cage (at least it appears to). Some animals will attack/threaten the image in the mirror thinking it a hostile intruder. But then there's others that most definitely seem to be able to tell that this is not a separate being but themselves seen from another angle. They are self-aware. Here's an interesting article about some primate reactions to mirrors. And some additional info about the mirror test from wikipedia.

 

Curiosity: I'm honestly not sure where you are coming from on this one. Curiosity seems to be one of the most fundamental attributes of animal life that I'm aware of. Perhaps we are at cross definitions of curiosity?

 

"Inner Longing": I'm not completely sure where you are coming from on this one either. I agree many people have an "inner drive" of somekind, but are you saying the longing for a reunion with the christian god? By what do you judge that? Many, many people are satisfied with non-christian lot (theistic or no). Why did their inner longings lead them down a different path then?

 

 

For me the simpler explanation for the soul is that the ego has alot of trouble believing that the world could exist without it. The "soul" was created as a way to satiate the ego. But even then, it was a poor salve. History is repleat with people trying to find a path to physical immortality, which would be a full satisfaction of the ego need to survive, rather than the abstract one that some ethereal counterpart will survive.

 

And I guess that's the trick tdsurf. For me, all the questions of the soul seem to be answered better by basic psychology and physiology. How is the concept of a soul a better answer?

 

IMOHO,

[white_raven23]

As you pointed out, dogs and monkeys are not exactly the lowest of life forms and exhibit some almost human traits.

 

 

You know...actually what I pointed out had nothing to do with a heirarchal "value" assignment to any animal whatsoever. Saying something is a "High" or "low" life form is value assigning. And they do not "exhibit some almost human traits"....that implies humanity is the standard by which a trait should be judged.

 

Our species shares similar social traits with other animals.

 

That makes more reasonable sense than thinking we are magically animated balls of dirt considered a suitable recepticle for a soul by a supreme being.

 

 

-props to Antlerman, your response in that News thread was too apt not to apply here

[tdsurf]

Firstly, thank you tdsurf and everyone else for your responses. Though I've been with this site through several severs (I'm not even sure how long it's been now), I rarely start topics and am pleased at the amount of responses I've gotten.

 

I thought it might be beneficial to through out some definitions of "soul" to help facilitate the discussion. Without common understanding, there can be no progress. Here's what I got from dictionary.com:

 

soul /soʊl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sohl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation,

–noun 1. the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in humans, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body, and commonly held to be separable in existence from the body; the spiritual part of humans as distinct from the physical part.

2. the spiritual part of humans regarded in its moral aspect, or as believed to survive death and be subject to happiness or misery in a life to come: arguing the immortality of the soul.

3. the disembodied spirit of a deceased person: He feared the soul of the deceased would haunt him.

4. the emotional part of human nature; the seat of the feelings or sentiments.

5. a human being; person.

6. high-mindedness; noble warmth of feeling, spirit or courage, etc.

7. the animating principle; the essential element or part of something.

8. the inspirer or moving spirit of some action, movement, etc.

9. the embodiment of some quality: He was the very soul of tact.

10. (initial capital letter) Christian Science. God; the divine source of all identity and individuality.

11. shared ethnic awareness and pride among black people, esp. black Americans.

12. deeply felt emotion, as conveyed or expressed by a performer or artist.

 

tdsurf - I would assume from what you've written so far that one of the first 4 definitions (or possibly a combination of them) would fit your definition. Please let me know if I'm far off on this.

 

As for possible proofs for the soul, you seem to site self-awareness, curiosity and some kind of "universal longing". Specifically that these qualities are not shared by the animal kingdom or if they do share some of them, not to the extent that humans do. Again, please let me know if I'm misunderstanding your argument so far.

 

Self-awareness: Many animals exibit various levels of self awareness. It's a very tricky thing to test for, as communication acrossed species is nigh impossible, but one test I've seen that strongly suggests such an attribute is being able to recognize your own reflection in a mirror. Put a mirror in a bird cage and the bird thinks there's 2 birds in the cage (at least it appears to). Some animals will attack/threaten the image in the mirror thinking it a hostile intruder. But then there's others that most definitely seem to be able to tell that this is not a separate being but themselves seen from another angle. They are self-aware. Here's an interesting article about some primate reactions to mirrors. And some additional info about the mirror test from wikipedia.

 

Curiosity: I'm honestly not sure where you are coming from on this one. Curiosity seems to be one of the most fundamental attributes of animal life that I'm aware of. Perhaps we are at cross definitions of curiosity?

 

"Inner Longing": I'm not completely sure where you are coming from on this one either. I agree many people have an "inner drive" of somekind, but are you saying the longing for a reunion with the christian god? By what do you judge that? Many, many people are satisfied with non-christian lot (theistic or no). Why did their inner longings lead them down a different path then?

 

 

And I guess that's the trick tdsurf. For me, all the questions of the soul seem to be answered better by basic psychology and physiology. How is the concept of a soul a better answer?

 

IMOHO,

 

Interesting and thought provoking. My perspective is not so much that these characteristics prove the soul, but are symptomatic of one. (again, delineate between soul and spirit) I can accept that some animals exhibit faintly similar psychological characteristics (but the comparison is a long stretch). Some have theorized that the story of Adam and Eve recounts how man's physiology changed in a non-linear event which resulted in a hyper self-awareness (being naked), possibly the result of metabolizing a specific fruit. Though it says that God created man in His likeness (assume this means a spiritual or eternal attribute, or possibly the higher thought processes) BEFORE this selfish trait came about. So possibly, self-awareness is more symptomatic of SIN and therefore now makes man a little closer to the beasts?

[Fweethawt]

My guess is some people ask bigger questions than others do.

Oh goodness. If you get White Raven going Tdsurf she is garanteed to rip you a new one.

And when she does, it gets me all insane with mad desire I can scarcely control!

Hah! You, too, eh? I love it when Raven gets a chance to go off on somebody.

[Skankboy]

Then I guess we're back where we started. We can point to these same phenomena and give different reasons for their cause.

 

Perhaps I can change the formula a bit: What's makes you believe that you have a soul and how exactly would you define what a "soul" is?

 

For me, the default state is one of conditional disbelief until suffiecient evidence proves otherwise. So far, the concept of the "soul/spirit" has yet to have sufficient evidence presented for me to accept it.

 

Thanks,

[tdsurf]

Then I guess we're back where we started. We can point to these same phenomena and give different reasons for their cause.

 

Perhaps I can change the formula a bit: What's makes you believe that you have a soul and how exactly would you define what a "soul" is?

 

For me, the default state is one of conditional disbelief until suffiecient evidence proves otherwise. So far, the concept of the "soul/spirit" has yet to have sufficient evidence presented for me to accept it.

 

Thanks,

 

If you don't mind, I'd like to ask of the entire board because I believe the concept of soul or spirit is dependent on,

 

Do you believe there is a "spiritual" dimension? Do you believe there are personalities inhabiting other dimensions beyond what our senses perceive? Can those personalities think, feel, evolve and possibly influence this dimension? Is there enough evidence to say there is such a thing as supernatural ? (not the Santana album)

[white_raven23]

If you don't mind, I'd like to ask of the entire board because I believe the concept of soul or spirit is dependent on,

 

Do you believe there is a "spiritual" dimension?

Unknown. Insufficient evidence at this time.

 

Do you believe there are personalities inhabiting other dimensions beyond what our senses perceive?

This is merely an extension of the first question...same answer.

 

 

Can those personalities think, feel, evolve and possibly influence this dimension?

This question presupposes a "yes" to the first 2 questions.

For the sake of a hypothetical answer, if there is an alternate dimension with sentient intelligences, I don't think cross-dimensional influence would be possible. No.

 

Is there enough evidence to say there is such a thing as supernatural ? (not the Santana album)

No. There really isn't.

[Skankboy]

If you don't mind, I'd like to ask of the entire board because I believe the concept of soul or spirit is dependent on,

 

Do you believe there is a "spiritual" dimension? Do you believe there are personalities inhabiting other dimensions beyond what our senses perceive? Can those personalities think, feel, evolve and possibly influence this dimension? Is there enough evidence to say there is such a thing as supernatural ? (not the Santana album)

 

Hi tdsurf,

 

Like Whiteraven was saying, these 2 things are intrinsically bound. Believing in one necessitates a belief in the other, otherwise "where" would this soul "live".

 

Personally, I can give the same answer as before: A conditional "no" due to insufficient evidence in favor of its existence.

[tdsurf]

If you don't mind, I'd like to ask of the entire board because I believe the concept of soul or spirit is dependent on,

 

Do you believe there is a "spiritual" dimension? Do you believe there are personalities inhabiting other dimensions beyond what our senses perceive? Can those personalities think, feel, evolve and possibly influence this dimension? Is there enough evidence to say there is such a thing as supernatural ? (not the Santana album)

 

Hi tdsurf,

 

Like Whiteraven was saying, these 2 things are intrinsically bound. Believing in one necessitates a belief in the other, otherwise "where" would this soul "live".

 

Personally, I can give the same answer as before: A conditional "no" due to insufficient evidence in favor of its existence.

 

OK. Then I would be interested to understand how either of you (Whiteraven / skankboy, et al ) view the universe, life and existence. Is there a name or label to your system of beliefs or are you still searching for one or...?

 

thanks, td

 

(Whiteraven, I'm sorry I offended you and that we got off on the wrong foot. I didn't intend to insult you but it came off that way I think due to the very nature of the topic comparing humans to other species. Can we start over?)