Torn In Two

[Guest adonisai]

Hi all:

 

I am new here, this is my first time posting on a board like this one. I just left the Christian religion but I am still unsure about what I believe. I still do believe in God, I think. Please don't hate me for saying that. I came here because I am a lurker and decided finally to make the move to post here. You are all intelligent here and what I REALLY like is that you actually think about what you believe. Christians not only do not think about what they believe, but they are actually blind. And the sorry-ass version of God that they believe in is not what I believe in. But I still feel like I am on the fence because I have kind of made up my own version of God. I didn't want to let go of the idea completely so now I believe in a God who loves everyone and I believe that there is no hell. Well, I kind of believe that this place we live in now (earth) is hell with all the fighting going on and all the stupid religions battling each other. But could God be someone completely different than what most religions (Christian, Muslim, etc.) believe him to be? Could it be possible that God, if he is real, is actually a God of love and kindness and that there is no hell? Well, that is where I am at present. Not completely sure of anything, but not quite yet ready to be an atheist. I think I would call me an agnostic. Is that correct?

 

I am a bit arrogant, I guess. I want to exist after death, although if there is nothing after death, I would certainly want to know about that. I came out of the christian religion angry and ready to fight. But I'm just not sure what I'm fighting for. I only know I hate their God, and I will hate him until the day I die. Last night I listened to a sermon on a local channel and I think that is the reason I decided to post here today. This arrogant ass-hole actually said that he wonders where the souls of the Amish girls that were killed by that gunman some time ago were today. He talked about the Amish people trying to get to heaven by works, and then he actually led me to believe that he thought those girls were in hell. I swear if that fat ass-hole was in front of me, I would have spit in his face. Are you permitted to be angry here at Christians, I mean, because that describes me? Well, I would appreciate the friendship and understanding of you all here. I am kind of a lonely person. I don't even know why I am posting here except that I am an angry Ex-Christian and I thought this might be the place to be. But I still WANT to believe in God so I don't know exactly if this is the right place. Please don't send me down in flames for saying that. I don't want to argue with anyone. I just want to know what you all think is wrong with me.

[Kelli]

Adonisai,

 

I moved your topic as I thought it more appropriate for this forum. I assure you there is nothing wrong with you. What you are going through is normal, and it's OK to be angry. It's OK to not be sure what exactly you believe. And as far as I personally am concerned, it is OK to believe in God. I believe in a God/Goddess of sorts, but my view of God is based on my own percention and experience and has changed over time. It has been nearly 4 years since I "officially" fell away from Christianity and for the first few years my beliefs morphed rapidly, beginning with a more liberal flavor of christianity, then Deism, then a deeper flavor of paganism similar to Wicca, and finally to agnosticism with a bit of Celtic paganism and a whole heap of my own ideas on God thrown in for good measure.

 

I wish you well in your journey. You will find you have many friends here who have traveled similar paths to the one you are on. Welcome.

 

~ Maura

[Mankey]

Yea. What the mod said...

 

adonisai......atheists don't own apostacy.......

 

I used to be a deist. Now I am atheist.

 

Welcome to Ex-Christians.net

 

[Deva]

Adonisai,

 

Welcome. I don't think there is anything wrong with you either and you won't get any argument from me. I have been out of Christianity for about 10 years, but it was a very gradual process. There were times of great confusion. It is OK to not know what you believe, or to not have any beliefs, and its OK to still believe in a God. There is a whole section of this site called "Ex-Christian Theism." Being ex-christians, we just reject the God as presented in the Bible. There are many other paths. The whole of it is wide open to you now. Anger is a phase. It comes to me sometimes even after all these years, mostly because of my parents being fundies, but I remove myself from it as much as I can.

 

Sometimes I will see preachers on TV that still make me mad, but mostly I don't watch that stuff anymore. I can usually find better things to do. If I may make a suggestion, it might be best for a while if you turned off the radio or TV whenever a sermon comes on. Then gradually you can create and maintain a detachment from all of it. It is like some kind of mind poison. It just seems to me that just to be upset all the time is not really worth it.

 

If you don't believe in a literal hell of fire, you have made real progress.

 

I certainly do not feel inclined to attack you in any way or berate you for being in the place you are at.

[GraphicsGuy]

It's okay to be angry and it's really good that you recognize that your anger is at religion and not at god, because

 

A) if god is real he/she/it is NOT the god of the Xian bible so there's no point in being angry at someone who has been horribly misrepresented and

 

B ) if there is no god there is no point in being angry at a mythical being.

 

Welcome to the realm of Ex-Xianity. It's a bigger world than you ever knew existed.

[Guest adonisai]

Thanks all. It is great to be here. I know I should just stay away from that crap on the television. I usually do, but I have a problem in that my husband and my kids go to church, and it was the sermon from this church that I heard last night. The televise it on Monday night on the all-access channel. It was some sort of guest speaker, and here is the thing. I only listen because I want to know what kind of nightmarish hellish crap my kids are listening to. I talked to my 16-year-old after listening to that moron and explained to him that what that man said was horrible and he agreed. But it is me against a very fundie husband, and my kids are in the middle. I never talk to my husband about religion anymore as it just causes battles. So I am glad to be here with like-minded and tolerant people. Thank you for tolerating my idea that there just might be a God. How would anyone really know? That is what I always think. But then if this is hell, God wouldn't really be here. Do any of you ever entertain the idea that this could be hell? That is just a passing phase I am in. I am glad to hear that you all go through phases as well because I have certainly been in a few recently. Well, to tell you the truth, I really, really dislike religion and therefore I dislike religious people. I hope you are right, this is just a phase I am going through and after a little while, the anger will go away. I listen to lots of angry music, and maybe this is what fuels some of my anger. But I really like this kind of music, so it is hard to stay away from it. Anyway, I really enjoy this site and have been reading on here for a while. Glad to be a part of you.

[Legion]

Welcome to the forums Adonisai.

 

Do any of you ever entertain the idea that this could be hell?

Life can be rough sometimes. There is no doubt about it. But it never crossed my mind that we could be in hell. It sounds like a good idea for a novel.

[Taphophilia]

Hi adonisai,

 

Welcome to Ex-C!

 

I'd like to point out that just because we have rejected Christianity doesn't mean all of us have rejected a belief in God. It's our big beef with the Christians who come here who tend to lump us all as atheists, when, in fact, we are not. We are Ex-Christians.

 

As far as hell, I like what Jean-Paul Sartre says, "Hell is other people".

 

One of the hardest parts of leaving Christianity is that it has all the answers to life and death. Now, you have to try to figure them out for yourself. I know that when I deconverted, I had no idea who I was or what my opinoins actually were. Everything had been programmed into me, how to think, how to believe, etc. I had to start from scratch and find out who I was and what I thought. Looking back, I don't like who I was as a Christian. I like myself much better now.

 

Taph

[GraphicsGuy]

One of the hardest parts of leaving Christianity is that it has all the answers to life and death. Now, you have to try to figure them out for yourself. I know that when I deconverted, I had no idea who I was or what my opinoins actually were. Everything had been programmed into me, how to think, how to believe, etc. I had to start from scratch and find out who I was and what I thought. Looking back, I don't like who I was as a Christian. I like myself much better now.

 

Gees Taph, that sounds really, really familiar about now. It's exactly how I feel! lol

 

Even though I'm still newly de-converted I like myself a whole lot better and I just feel better overall.

 

*****

 

adonisai, I'm very sorry to hear about your fundie husband. I know how difficult that is and how much it hurts to have to hold yourself in because the rejection hurts even worse. Why the fundie spouses don't read their own bible and understand that they are to love and accept even their unbelieving spouses (be peaceful and understanding) I don't understand...

 

Well, no, I do understand why, it's just a shame that they can't grow up and be mature enough to realize that their spouse does not HAVE to agree with them and that married couples DO HAVE to make HUGE concessions for one another. Agreeing to disagree is what makes strong, healthy marriages NOT seeing eye-to-eye on 100% of everything.

[Thackerie]

I used to use the following quote as my signature:

 

God will understand. And if he doesn't, then he is not god so there is no need to fear him.

 

I don't know, and can't know, if there is a god. That makes me an agnostic, but I'm leaning toward atheism simply because I don't see any compelling reason to believe in an all-powerful, interactive deity that demands worship. (Why should an omnipotent god care what we feeble humans think of it, anyway? If god "needs" to be adored, he can't be "perfect.")

 

Sometimes I think maybe there was a creative force that started the universe and could be called "god," though I don't see any evidence that this force was/is the originator of morality and all that is good, nor that it is involved in day-to-day events on earth.

 

One thing I do believe with 100% confidence is that the god described in the bible (or in the "holy" books of any religion, really) is just a man-made construction. The bible is too full of errors and contradictions - and just too incomprehensible - to possibly have been authored or inspired by an all-knowing deity.

 

Besides, we know the history of how the bible was shaped by political and cultural influences. We also know about the pagan religions that were incorporated into christianity, including the fact that a number of virgin-born, ressurected god-men preceded jesus in more ancient mythology. For example, we know that hell is not even mentioned in the earlier books in the old testament - not until the concept was brought in by the jews who had picked it up during their captivity in Babylon, if I recall correctly.

 

Nope, no reason to believe, or fear bible god or jesus. No reason to waste time on religion. No need to worry that I'm going to go to hell for not believing correctly or not following some arcane ritual or just being human and messing up occasionally.

 

Other than that, being free of christianity doesn't change my life that much. I'm not out commiting crimes. I'm a pretty good person. I'm generally loving and kind. In other words, I'm free to be me - a pretty good, loving and kind person - without fear of hell or hope of heavenly reward, regardless of whether or not there's any such thing as a god - and I feel good about that.

[Sparrow]

Hi all:

 

...Text ...

 

Hey adonisai!

 

What to say other than that’s pretty straight to the point.

 

What can I say other than you’re on the first few steps to realizing a greater truth. It’s a hard thing to do, but with time you’ll come to a realization that the world, in fact the whole universe, that you’ve been lead to believe in, is far greater than you’ve ever imagined.

 

With time you’ll discover that, well maybe, there is no god – at least not in the way the bible says it. You may, with time, even discover that the god many religions talk about is impossible. With time you many even come to the conclusion that jesus, mohammed and buddha, (et al) were either figments of the imagination or just very clever people.

 

As disappointing as it is now, you may even discover that it is OK that there is no life after death. You may find that living today, as ethically and as honestly as you can with your eye on making the world a better place for future generations a pretty honourable thing.

 

With time you may discover the joy of life in the here and now – without having to read a zillion philosophical documents. You may even discover that life is pretty good as a non-believer - because you truly appreciate what life offers and treasure it right up to the minute it stops.

 

As a non-believer you may discover that you can love deeper and more honestly, be more self honest, be open to relationships and friendships you never thought possible. You will be able to consider ideas and possibilities that previously were never imaginable.

 

As a non-believer you may even discover true courage, true consideration, true knowledge and most importantly, the truth itself.

 

Thanks

 

Spatz

[futurekid]

I am a bit arrogant, I guess. I want to exist after death, although if there is nothing after death, I would certainly want to know about that.

 

I don't find it arrogant at all. In fact some of us find it outrageous that everyone doesn't want to avoid death. My personal view is that after you die will be just like it was before you were born - complete oblivion. If you're interesting in finding out more about current scientific efforts to extend the window of life we have, check out The Methuselah Foundation, Alcor, SENS, and especially the forums at The Immortality Institute.

 

Above all, allow yourself time to discover who you are and what is valuable to you so that you can pursue it. If you have friends and relatives who ARE convinced of Christianity, I suggest having them read If Grace is True: Why God Will Save Every Person. While I personally don't believe it, I have seen it soften the attitude of believers and get them thinking a bit more about what's important in life.

[Mythra]

Hi Adonisai. Welcome to Ex-C.

 

After I had left christianity, I decided that I wasn't going to just get into some other religion just because it felt good. Or just because it seemed right. Or just because it gave me a sense of purpose. Or because it seemed like a good bet. Or just because I liked the group of people who were involved in it.

 

I decided I was going to learn to recognize the evidence as best I could, and educate myself as best I could and see where it led.

 

After two years, I've steadily become more and more convinced that God and the concept of an eternal soul are man-made ideas that are perpetuated by fear. Ideas that live on primarily because of the huge number of little kids that are imprinted into the religion before they get their eye teeth.

 

At first, thinking of coming to an end was scary. But the more I thought about it, the less frightening it became and the more I came to recognize how precious is the time I have here on earth as a living being.

 

Until I see some real evidence to the contrary, I am not buying any more supernatural claims from anybody.

 

Just for reference, some of the authors I've read since deconverting: Robert Price, Carl Sagan, Bart Ehrman, Richard Dawkins, Elaine Pagels, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris, Earl Doherty, David Mills, Robert Eisenman.

[Guest adonisai]

Hi Again:

 

Thank you all for your replies. I really have come a long, long way from where I was before. I think the major thing that has happened for me is that I no longer fear God. If God is real, or if he isn't, doesn't matter so much to me anymore because I am no longer just living my life trying to appease and appeal to some imaginary character. As I said, I still hold on to my own version of God, who just happens to be a good God who loves everyone and is fair and just. And if there is an eternity somewhere, then I imagine that as being a place where everyone is equal and, above all, there is NO religion. I am at the point where I hate religion and everything it stands for. I am not just talking about the Christian religion, but the Muslim religion, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. I don't think I will ever grasp on to any religion again because if there is anything I do fear, it is that.

 

I have to agree with most of you here in that brainwashing does go on inside most churches today. Maybe it is even something some of these pastors are taught. After all, isn't church just a big business? It is in the business of making money, and the pastors live off the hand-outs they are given. And they live good lives too. So how do they get all that money? I always wonder because you see these big super WalMart churches and pastors with million dollar salaries. Everyone is searching for something, and this fills the bill for most, I guess. But when you stop and really think about what it is you are being force-fed in these religious institututes, it is almost frightening. That God would be so evil and such a horrible monster that he would burn people in a big lake of fire forever. It seems impossible that I really did believe that at one time. It is such a joke that people say, "Oh, I love God. I worship God." But when you would ask them how they could possibly love this God of theirs who tortures their enemies forever, they would just look at you with a blank stare. I have tried this a few times, and it is good for a laugh.

 

Anyway, been there, done that, and I am so glad I can finally see. So how did some of you come out of the Christian religion? What did it take for you? Was it a slow process or did it happen quickly? It took me about five years to be where I am at today, and I guess I will continue to change. I never went to church as a kid, maybe about twice or three times a year. But then I married my husband who went to church every Sunday morning AND evening. So it was never a question that when we had kids, they would HAVE to go to church. I think the more anyone has gone to church as a kid, the more brainwashed they are. It didn't take me too long until I would sit there in church and think, "This is shit." I still went for a while, and then I would go and get really angry at the stupid, idiotic things these pastors were saying. Then I made my husband go to another church and then another one. I kept hoping it would get better. It didn't. If anything, it got worse. So finally I just told him that I could not go anymore, and that he could go and take the kids, but I just can't listen to that crap anymore. I try to tell my kids how stupid religion is, and I hope that some of it is getting through. I tell them they can feel free to believe anything they want, but PLEASE don't listen to what the pastor says and take it as solid truth. And I tell them to THINK about just what they are being taught, and if it doesn't make sense, then realize that it is probably a lie. Sorry this is so long. Thanks for your friendship guys.

[Sparrow]

Hi Again:

 

... text ...

 

Anyway, been there, done that, and I am so glad I can finally see. So how did some of you come out of the Christian religion? What did it take for you? Was it a slow process or did it happen quickly? It took me about five years to be where I am at today, and I guess I will continue to change. I never went to church as a kid, maybe about twice or three times a year. But then I married my husband who went to church every Sunday morning AND evening. So it was never a question that when we had kids, they would HAVE to go to church. I think the more anyone has gone to church as a kid, the more brainwashed they are. It didn't take me too long until I would sit there in church and think, "This is shit." I still went for a while, and then I would go and get really angry at the stupid, idiotic things these pastors were saying. Then I made my husband go to another church and then another one. I kept hoping it would get better. It didn't. If anything, it got worse. So finally I just told him that I could not go anymore, and that he could go and take the kids, but I just can't listen to that crap anymore. I try to tell my kids how stupid religion is, and I hope that some of it is getting through. I tell them they can feel free to believe anything they want, but PLEASE don't listen to what the pastor says and take it as solid truth. And I tell them to THINK about just what they are being taught, and if it doesn't make sense, then realize that it is probably a lie. Sorry this is so long. Thanks for your friendship guys.

 

Hi Adonsai,

 

You ask what did it take.

 

Without giving too much detail, it was personal tragedy. Whilst I was always a person that had reservations, I always was a conservative individual and tried to fit in, be liked, etc, so I didn’t ask too much. In German you would say I was a bit of a gray mouse.

 

When a number of personal tragedies occurred in succession in my life, I decided it was time to collect – that is, for God or the belief, to start putting the money where his mouth was and in short, nothing happened. Zero. Zippo. Zilch. Diddley-Squat.

 

The simple reality is that all the promises never amounted to anything. And being a logical, thinking person I started asking why. With time, I came to the inevitable conclusion that what we are told in Christianity, in the Bible, is either mistaken or wrong. I quickly learnt over time that what we were “taught†is pretty well what the Bible teaches and slowly came to the undeniable conclusion, even though I didn’t like it, that the Bible was wrong – because it just doesn’t work as advertised. So it must be a lie.

 

Cutting a long story short, I couldn’t in the beginning call myself an atheist. I’d call myself an agnostic – which for me was pretty radical.

 

With time however, and with education into things I’d never have allowed myself in the past, I came to the conclusion that it is impossible for the God, any God, to exist in the way humans want them to be.

 

Eventually I mentally evolved into an individual that said that if God exists, then he / she / it can go “bite†themselves. It wasn’t that I was angry at God, it’s just that if there was a God, he / she / it had to do more if it wanted my attention. It simply wasn’t enough to “hope†for eternal life, I wanted encouragement or I would proudly stand beside my fellow, damned, human brothers and sisters in hell for the solidarity of it, if there ever proved o be a God.

 

Now I am an atheist. I know there is no God. On every level of my being, I know that the God of every religion is impossible, because if it were true, we’d live in a vastly different universe. Even if the universe is mostly unexplainable, the God of almost every religion, no, of every religion, is simply not possible.

 

To get to this point, I had to wade through reams of arcane science and piles of apologetics. Now, I think I can safely say now that I know more about christianity, islam and other abrahamic religions, and their respective histories, etc, than many priests, pastors, imams and rabbi’s.

 

I think I can also say now that if you dedicate your life to god, then you are wasting your life.

 

You don’t need religion, you don’t need belief. You can be a good person without religion and you can be a good human being, not because the bible (or other book) says so, but because it is simply the right thing to do.

 

It may help to remember that even if there is a god, then he or she or it is a complete and total arsehole.

 

It may help to remember that the created, with foibles, with all our problems and all our mistakes, is still far greater, collectively more moral, and infinitely more humane, than god.

 

He, she or it, doesn’t deserve our worship.

 

Spatz.

[dibby]

Hi Adonisai

 

Just enjoy NOT knowing for a while! When you know that you don,t know a bunch of beliefs it can actually be very liberating. I don,t think that it is not knowing that can cause us problems. It is not knowing but insisting that "I should know".

 

Alot of people just can,t stand the thought of not knowing (by which they mean having a bunch of beliefs by which to live their lives). If people ask us an opinion we often feel we should have one, otherwise we might be ignorant...and then (horror of horrors!) what will we do?? The trouble with fundamentalists is of course they "know" absolutely everything....who god is, what his will is, what he thinks of gays,whether you are saved, what you should do on a sunday, how to pray, what happened at the beginning of the world, what will happen at the end, on and on it goes ad nauseum.

 

So welcome to to the beginning of true knowledge, which starts when we realise that we actually don,t know very much at all.

[Sparrow]

Hi Adonisai

 

Just enjoy NOT knowing for a while! When you know that you don,t know a bunch of beliefs it can actually be very liberating. I don,t think that it is not knowing that can cause us problems. It is not knowing but insisting that "I should know".

 

Alot of people just can,t stand the thought of not knowing (by which they mean having a bunch of beliefs by which to live their lives). If people ask us an opinion we often feel we should have one, otherwise we might be ignorant...and then (horror of horrors!) what will we do?? The trouble with fundamentalists is of course they "know" absolutely everything....who god is, what his will is, what he thinks of gays,whether you are saved, what you should do on a sunday, how to pray, what happened at the beginning of the world, what will happen at the end, on and on it goes ad nauseum.

 

So welcome to to the beginning of true knowledge, which starts when we realise that we actually don,t know very much at all.

 

Dibby,

 

Perhaps it would be helpful for Adonsai if you explain how you arrived at the position you are now. That is what she asked. Maybe it would be interesting if you explained the process that brought you were you are today.

 

Thanks

 

Spatz

[dibby]

I just want to know what you all think is wrong with me.

 

Hi Sparrow

 

I was replying to this part of Adonisais thread, and was saying that there is nothing wrong with herself, just because she is confused and doesn,t know what to believe any more.

 

For my part, I went through the same confusion and awful psychological turmoil when my christian faith just disntegrated on me. I was devastated because intuitively, for me, the word God always resonated something beautiful in me.....but I couldn,t square that with the god of the bible. So I couldn,t live with god.......and I couldn,t live without God....if you get my drift.

 

Since very young I have had a very strong spiritual hunger, with a kind of intuitive knowing that there was more to life. I was 11 years old when I drifted into Christianity, liberal and then evangelical. It seemed to be the only peg on which to hang my spiritual hunger. I was attracted to the more black and white evangelical christianity due to a desire to feel safe and secure. But ultimately it proved a hollow, empty, guilt filled existance and actually retarded my true spiritual unfoldment.

Once that collaped then the spiritual hunger took on a life of its own. I read, and read, and read....everything from psychology, self help, religious, spiritual works etc. This was an extremely intense yet ultimately fulfilling time, and I had a few powerful spiritual awakenings. I then got very hedonistic....for me all the stuff I had suppressed during chritianity came gushing out.....but that was also fairly hollow (but still alot more fun than evangelical chritianity!)

 

I am now at a very lovely space....what I was looking for was there inside me all along! Spirituality really is so simple (not always easy) and religion just seems to complicate everything. For me everything becomes clear, and peaceful when I just follow my breathing and open to the quiet, spaciousness within.......this is the beginning of true knowing, beyond aquiring more information.

 

Eckhart Tolle is very good at writing clearly, what I have come to realise, in "The Power of Now". When I read this it puts into words what I feel and have experienced.

[The Sage Nabooru]

One of the hardest parts of leaving Christianity is that it has all the answers to life and death. Now, you have to try to figure them out for yourself. I know that when I deconverted, I had no idea who I was or what my opinoins actually were. Everything had been programmed into me, how to think, how to believe, etc. I had to start from scratch and find out who I was and what I thought. Looking back, I don't like who I was as a Christian. I like myself much better now.

 

It's the damnedest thing, isn't it? I tell ya, there are times I drive past churches on Sundays, and I really do think, watching the people file in and out......."I wish I was back there again." Not in that sort of, I want to be back in the loving arms of Jesus kind of way. I never felt any lovingness there. I just want to go back and have all the questions answered for me.

 

We want to be followers, whether we can admit that or not. We depend on others - be they Christian evangelists, atheist authors, Muslim terrorists, Hindu gurus - to develop spiritual (or anti-spiritual) ideas, package them toward us, then reassure us in them. It's actually pretty comforting to have a label, and something you can always come back to as a standard. For example, a Christian uses the Bible as a basic source and balance against which to throw everything they do and believe and come across against. People do the same with whatever standard they've accepted from outside as their own. "Should I believe in this or do this? What did so-and-so say about this situation?......"

 

It also makes you more certain. Like I said, after another has convinced us to share their beliefs, we depend on them to reaffirm them. It's like being in a gang or club; or the Three Musketeers. We can favor members of our own group over others and consider ourselves justified.

 

We have no such standard. We have no books to run away to, simply because we cannot trust them; they are all out to turn us into followers of whatever they wish us to become. I only wish to be me. I have no easy answers and no universal truths, nothing to fall back on. I do not claim to know everything. It's like it has been said, when you start thinking about it you really have so little that you DO know at all. And just as nobody can claim that their so-called revelations and truths absolutely must apply to me as well I cannot claim that what I do know and experience somehow applies to them. I really can't claim anything at this point. I can only live out and discover what is true for me and myself. The ultimate question to ask is, "How do I feel?"

[Former Follier]

I just want to go back and have all the questions answered for me.

Isn't it amazing that once you've fallen away, those same religionists that once embraced, admired and esteemed you no longer feel your questions to be valid? Had I asked any one of the many, many questions I've asked my still-believing acquaintances in my church Youth Group, I would've gotten an answer, albeit a half-hearted one.

 

Now that I am an unbeliever, having changed my entire worldview and frame of reference, it seems those same questions instill some sort of fear in that same group of people (save for one or two select individuals with whom I still have an open line of communication) as if my unbelief is somehow communicable. If only it were that easy.

[trashy]

So how did some of you come out of the Christian religion? What did it take for you? Was it a slow process or did it happen quickly?

 

Most of us have answered those questions here, where you are also free to post your own story when you are ready:

 

Extimonies

[Guest adonisai]

Hi All:

 

Well, I did post my story already in this column, I think. There is nothing more to tell. I am lost, but I don't think I'll ever be found. And I literally hate this fucking life. Does that sound awful? Well, I do. I woke up this morning and couldn't sleep. So I turn on the television and flip through channels. I happen upon one of those nature programs and they are showing a baby elephant being killed by a pack of wild lions. And I am thinking that all of you are correct. There cannot possibly be a God because why do we see such things? And it is survival of the fittest and all that garbage but this does not endear me to life. I don't care if I live or die mostly. I couldn't care less if I die and cease to exist. But I don't want to be tortured forever in some lake of fire. That is the thing that frightens me, or at least it used to frighten me. But if there is a God, I call him good. I told you before that I suppose I consider my existence here to be hell. So if I am already in hell and the Bible does tell us that the wages of sin is death, then this is why everything dies.

 

I can't let go of the idea that we are spirit beings, and I know that sounds far-fetched and all. But I had a very strange experience which happened to be about 30 years ago. At the time, I was engaged to a man of 24, and he committed suicide. I always knew he was depressed, but I never thought he was capable of doing that to himself (shooting himself in the head.) On the morning that he did it, I was sound asleep, as he did it very early in the morning. While I was sleeping, this extremely bright light came rushing toward me, in my sleep. But this was no ordinary dream. This light was so vibrant and bright that it literally made me jump out of bed, and I landed about 2 feet away from the bedside. I had never had anything like that happen to me before (or after) so I looked at the clock by my bedside. Well, it was right around that time that my boyfriend had killed himself. I didn't know the exact time of death, but as far as I could tell, the time I had that dream was the same time he died. I guess this could be explained logically, although I am not sure how. And I can't say for sure that this bright light was some sign from him either. But the very worst thing that ever happened to me in my life is what gives me this little bit of hope that we do exist after death. I know there are many stories like mine, and I am thinking that unless they happen to you, you may not have the tendency to believe them. But this did happen to me, and although I could not say this actually proves anything, it is something I always hold on to.

 

And I think that if God is real, he is everything, and everyone. I think that God would be as much in a ladybug as he would be in a person. If something larger than us did create all of this, then he is much bigger than us, and how would we even attempt to understand him? Dibby hit the nail on the head. It is a good place when we can just say, "I don't know." I can't say that God is absent just because I can't see him. I can't say that God is absent just because I see horror and pain and misery and inequality. Perhaps the world is MEANT to be this way. But I refuse to believe in a God who would torture or torment anyone for eternity. That is not a God, that is a demon or a devil or a monster. That is why I no longer have anything to do with the Christian church, and I still think they are full of shit. I don't believe that God who THEY say is love, could torment people for any time at all. So I believe the parts of the Bible I want to believe, like "God is good." And I would probably believe parts of Buddhism and parts of the Koran as well as parts of Atheism. I don't think any of us really know the answers to these things. Does any of this make sense? I simply don't think the truth is really out there in any real form. But I want to hold on to the vision of a good God who really does love the people he created, all of them. Yes, I know you would be quick to point out that I am living in my own dream world, and that is true. But it is true for all of us. We only believe what we want to believe, or what feels true in our own hearts. And there is nothing wrong with anyone or anyone's beliefs. Every belief is acceptable.

 

Most Christians don't even stop to think about the fact that their religion is teaching people that God will torture people forever. I think most of you here have actually asked yourself the hard questions, and you have come up answers that make sense. Most Christians would rather run away and hide before they would sit down and ask any hard questions. But this is what it is like being brainwashed. Once someone is brainwashed, what does it take to unlearn what they have been taught? Would it take a ten-step program or an intervention? And who is going to do that when there are virtually millions of delusional Christians in the world who think that everything they believe is true? Anyway, thanks for talking to me here. Your support means lots and I probably will eventually lean toward Atheism but as for now, I guess agnostic is where I am at.

[pitchu]

Adonisai,

 

It's very concerning that you're feeling the way you do about hating this life. It's also hard to miss that you expressed this feeling in the same post wherein you discussed the suicide of your loved one. Please take your feelings seriously and seek help if you at all believe these feelings might lead to your destroying yourself before you've even given yourself time to feel free and good about your liberation from a hateful and oppressive belief-system.

 

Have you considered that these bad feelings about life might have less to do with religion, per se, and more to do with domestic issues which have been affected by religion? I mean, it must be anguishing to know that your children are regularly exposed to the religious ugliness you describe, and that your husband believes he finds beauty, truth and hope for himself and for your children in that ugliness. You're in a hard, hard spot. Please be careful with your thoughts, feelings and actions at this juncture.

[Evolution_beyond]

adonisai, you sound a lot like I did when I first stopped being a christian.

 

I believed in God for many years after I left christianity behind and I soon rejected the idea of hell. I too concluded that the consequences for wrongful actions happen in this life and that this life was sort of like hell, with all its pains and sorrows. For a while I even believed in reincarnation - that reincarnating was like hell but that when you learn better you can be released from reincarnation and go to heaven.

 

Later on I rejected the reincarnation idea and simply believed that all people, good and bad, go to God when they die because God is perfectly loving and forgiving and the purpose of making mistakes is to learn from them, so there is no good or evil just mistakes and learning better.

 

I don't believe in God anymore, and I don't believe in an afterlife anymore. But it is only because there is no evidence for such things. That makes it a weaker argument than my arguments for why the Christian God cannot be true.

 

If there is a God (and that's still a valid question with me) then he/she/it is far more likely to be a kind of creative energy that gives and creates and doesn't expect anything back than the ridiculous God that montheist faiths dream up. The idea of hell is so absurd because it is quite clear that the point of free will is to learn better by making mistakes. What's the point of free will if you're not meant to use it? The experience and the journey is the point of life and that is certainly the way that a Creator God would see it.

 

But anyway - welcome to the site, there's plenty of room for free-thinking theists here

[Guest adonisai]

Thank you Pitchu for your kind words. I want to assure you that I would never commit suicide myself. I don't have the nerve actually. I do hate this life but I have my good moments as well. I haven't had too many as of late, but I think that you are very correct about your assessment of me. I really think it is the fact that my husband (and mostly my kids) are being brainwashed into this "system" that is horrible and very unhealthy. And I feel mostly all alone because no one understands when you try to tell them that Christianity is a cult. Well, they think you are mostly insane because there are sooo many of them and so few of you. And what should be obvious is the fact that they can't answer any of your hard questions, and in fact, they run from questions that their religion should be able to answer clearly. I have tried talking to some pastors, over the internet and in person, and they have made me feel like I am the most horrible person in the world because I have the audacity to ask them how they can love their monster God. Then they are faced with the fact that the only damn reason they love God is because they selfishly think HE loves them. And because they see themselves as so loveable and grand in the eyes of this monster, they can love him, even though the fact remains that they think most of the rest of the world will be thrown into a hellish existence for all of eternity. So, yes, you are correct. Much of my depression comes from the fact that talking to most of these morons has gotten me nowhere. Once you are brainwashed, it is too late. And is it too late for my two kids? Who knows? But I don't want to die just yet. I want to stay around and try to indoctrinate my kids into thinking about things in a better way. Still everytime my husband drags them out to church on a Sunday morning, it pretty much infuriates me. I'm not even sure why, but if your kids were being indoctrinated into a cult, you would be upset too, I am thinking. Especially when the cult is widely accepted as "Truth." But anyway, thanks for your concern and you are very insightful.

 

Evolution Beyond, thank you for your thoughts as well. I can completely understand the journey you have been on so far. I don't think any of us know anything for certain. I have always dreamed about a church called the "Church of the Great Unknown." This would be a church for free-thinkers and we could discuss anything, from UFOs to out-of-body experiences to spiritual issues, etc., and no one would be criticized or laughed at for thinking what they are thinking. All our thoughts would be permissable and all of our ideas could be realities as well, because we would realize that no one really knows. But when someone would come through the door and say, "I KNOW THIS IS TRUE" we would all have every right to kick them out on their butts. All questions would be permitted and could be discussed freely. But when someone would take an all-knowing, "I'm better than you because I know more than you" attitude, we would remind them they are worshipping in the church of the unknown and no one knows jack shit here, so if you know anything for certain, then don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. Anyway, probably not too many would choose to attend that kind of "church". Christian church of today is proud of the fact that they accept everything by faith. Too bad their faith is in what some crack-pot preacher whose shit smells worse than theirs is telling them. I am sorry for being so negative and angry but I think this is something I just have to work through. I think it is true, we are all on a journey, and who knows where this journey leads us.