Enough

[Kirangel]

I haven't really been here in a while, I checked it out a day or two ago but I think it's been at least a month since I posted, maybe longer I'm not really sure. This is the first thing that I should have done when I joined this group so that you all would know where I was coming from, so that there wouldn't have been any confusion. I'm not from the bible belt, I did not come from an evangelical family, I was not taught to look at people and judge them in terms of their spiritual convictions. No, none of that was in my life not on the surface anyways it was all hidden and I didn't have time to think about the fate of people, I didn't have the time to look at my friend and say that she's going to go to hell because she's Jewish. The ramifications of my beliefs never phased me through my teenage years.

 

When people here would say more negative things towards Christians I defended the kind ones but even with the more liberal Christians the outcome is still the same. Their mythologies are influencing too many people in a negative way, enough is enough. There is no kindness in it, only false judgment emanating from people, useless prayer, and problems being ignored.

 

The devil DID NOT send Cho to shoot the kids at VA Tech. God DID NOT send Cho to shoot the kids at VA Tech. He was sick, he slipped through, it was a piss poor system, an uncaring world... Figure it out but do not tell me it was your deity or demons! We need to find the solution. Enough with hiding behind lies, I closed my eyes to the ramifications, to what it all really meant just like when I was younger but enough. I know I've criticized many of you for the harsh stance you have taken and a month or so ago I would have talked about the kind ones, the caring ones, the Christians who are not filled with hatred. Enough.

 

The religion did hurt me. Surprise, surprise...but it wasn't the people (well it was but I didn't see it that way then). It was the God that was supposed to be there, Jesus who was supposed to answer me. And then they told me that I didn't believe that it was because I was ridiculing God and not genuinely asking for help. Fuck that. I can very clearly picture the moment that I stopped believing in the Christian Myth. There was no God behind me then, no Jesus, it was very emotional and I ended up crying on the floor. And I believed during that final plead, there's no question about it. They said that I left because I didn't like the rules God gave us, Fuck that too I would have loved nothing more then to have a watchful, caring being be there for me, that's what I wanted, in my mind I had nothing else. So that day was when I realized that I was alone. I've been through a lot of shit like most people probably have and I was told that the reason I was struggling was because I didn't have God and God was love. That's why, so good they can go pray for me to find God and leave me terrified and alone with a knife in my room. That's fucking awesome. I didn't see it like that back then, I didn't see it like that a month or so ago. Some of them are beautiful people, with some of them you can see their kindness inside and that is great but it's hiding something much darker that they aren't even aware of. Go pray for the homeless, pray for those who are dying gruesome deaths an ocean away from here, PRAY FOR THEM! By itself it's cruel, and it's hidden, and they don't even know it because their fairytale God is real in their eyes and they expect that 'real' God to do something.

 

I'm just so tired, and confused. I think a part of me might still believe, I consider myself a deist now but there's something small still holding me back, and they would say that's God calling me back, and ignore the 18 years of indoctrination that I went through. So, for those of you who were here whenever it was that I last posted and remember me I apologize for not doing something like this in the first place. For those of you who are newer, this is where I stand right now. I don't want to hate Christians, I don't want to hate anything, I don't like hate, I don't like seeing it in other people, I don't like it in myself but I don't want to tolerate the Christian message anymore. I don't agree with their message I think at the very least there is an underlying cruelty to it even if it's covered by love. Yes they will preach kindness and love but behind it is a damaging notion.

 

Like I said, as of right now I'm confused about exactly where I stand but I know it's not in the exact same place as I did before, for better or worse. So again, I'm sorry if I did mislead anyone it was never my intention, I was just trying to work things out. All I know about life is that it's fucked up, that's my world, and I don't know if in another day or month or year I'll think more kindly of religion and I don't want to mislead people. All I know is that right now I've had enough of their message, I've had enough of reading present day religious horror stories, and I've had enough of seeing them hide behind an all loving God that hasn't done shit, and I'm tired of being alone while family members sit in the pew and pray for their God to help me.

 

I don't remember it's been so long but I'm sorry if anything I said seemed like it minimized your own situations. Fucking life.

[Piprus]

That's a rant from the heart, Kirangel, thanks for posting it.

From my perspective, all that I can say is...nope, the "devil" didn't do anything, because the "devil" doesn't exist.

Although I don't believe any gods exist, in the usual sense of the word, if there's a "creator", such an entity is beyond our everyday lives or level of understanding, and is not involved.

 

That brings us to an interpretation of life as simply "it is what it is". We do the best we can, be the best we can be to those in our circle of family, friends, and acquaintences, and be it as it may.

 

"Fucking Life" is not the way to end the post, Kirangel...better to end by saying, "I'll probably be here tomorrow, and I'll move to make it better." You can only do so much...you can do no more than your best, and you damn sure can't fix all the problems people have. So pull your own load, be a positive force for others, and let the rest be...

[Kirangel]

Thanks for the response Piprus, I wasn't sure anyone would read it I made it kind of long.

[Vigile]

I don't want to tolerate the Christian message anymore.

 

I think you will find that this is the thread that ties us all together here as well. The vast majority here doesn't hate xians or people in general, just the meme that is Christianity because of what it does to people.

 

You're obviously a bright person so I have no doubt you will settle in and figure out where you stand on things. Life sometimes sucks in the moment, but you will find, if you don't already know it, that in general life is pretty great. Once you work through the stress of a paradigm shift I'm sure that you will find what it is about your own life that makes things interesting and exciting.

 

Very nice post.

[Kirangel]

I don't know if I ever will settle on where I stand with things, I don't see how anybody can. When it comes to religion, beliefs, spirituality, I look at it as possibilities or partial possibilities. In my eyes Christianity is so improbable that I'm willing to deny it as truth without saying that 'I don't believe it is the truth'. I see some truths in it though, the world is fucked up, the bible is twisted and it shows this...it shows both parts. I always used to complain about the way that Christians viewed the crucification of Christ. 'He gave his life to save you' I even hear non-Christians say that this is honorable but in my head I just thought of it as a great evil. Suffering for salvation, it tells Christians that suffering is good that they need it. You can go even further with the moral implications of calling for the sacrifice of an innocent to save others.

 

The bible is human, it shows the good and evil of humanity in a very mixed up way one that was never meant for the people of today. Belief systems serve as a function in their own cultures and are not only an expression of humanity but also that culture and time period as well. So I think the reason that people will find truths in religions is not only because they are looking for them with tinted glasses but also because there are truths in it...ones that are relevant to humanity as a whole.

 

umm, there's a good chance that I'll end up being an atheist in a few years but it doesn't matter because I won't be settled with my beliefs then either. I'm one of those people who cares about the truth and I know that it's something that I will probably never know at least not any time soon. People say that we'll know when we die...well, there's most likely nothing after death so we'll never know anything.

 

And now I'm rambling again. I don't need to mention that I'm confused anymore times then I already have do I? Thanks for your response Vigile.

[Japedo]

Welcome Back Kir.

 

I know we didn't really hit it off the first time around. (who do I hit it off with anyway? LOL) Anyways... It was nice to see a from the heart perspective, and it's nice to see you posting. I think once we know where we stand, things change and we end up in other shoes. It is always a good thing to look for answers, that's all any of us can do. Change is good it means growth, and that goes for everyone.

 

I have also had enough of the sugar coating Christians whom reside in the spiritual realm and pretend that nothing here on earth matters. They win people over thru being 'nice' they'd get no recruits if they were as hateful as their dogma demands.

 

Anyways... Hope to see more of you!

[Evan]

Thanks for the response Piprus, I wasn't sure anyone would read it I made it kind of long.

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but if someone is going to take the time and effort to write something with that much content then it is most likely important. That happens to be especially true on these forums. Good luck sorting out the mess Xianity put us all in. It feels like this thread was a way to release a lot of bottled up stress. Might I suggest taking a few days to think things through?

 

 

P.S. that isn't long, try reading a 4 page rant

[R. S. Martin]

Yeah, I read the whole thing, too. I love seeing people change and grow for the better.

[Kirangel]

Thanks guys, and Japedo I didn't really hit it off well with anyone at least not at all at the beginning. umm...after the first post I made here I can see why. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

I feel better now after ranting about it.

[junkpoet]

Thanks guys, and Japedo I didn't really hit it off well with anyone at least not at all at the beginning. umm...after the first post I made here I can see why. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

I feel better now after ranting about it.

 

Emerson said "Speak what you think today in hard words and tomorrow speak what tomorrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said today." i enjoyed reading your post and the follow up stuff. it is encouraging to see people growing, learning, thinking. i dont see many people in my personal life who really open their minds and think/grow.

 

The question as to the orgins of the bible and of the morality of this our "christian" nation is one i have encountered often from believers. not exactly on topic maybe...but i wrote the following trying to address the question of whether the bible is evil or good and the question of the origins of at least my own ideas of morality with out god.

 

First of all, as a christian one begins with the premise that the bible is the inspired inerrant word of a good god. I do not. I believe it was written by men. Sometimes men who had good intentions and even some wisdom, sometimes men who were self-serving bigots. So from my perspective, you see, all ideas of right and wrong, even those of the Christian, are simply made up. Sort of like Willie Stark says in All the King’s Men…we just make it up. Some of my ideas about morality I take from the Bible. Others I take from other things I’ve read or personal experiences etc… Really, it is unavoidable for me that much of what I believe as far as morality is still based on scripture, I was force fed the thing from my youth. In the Church of Christ, we weren’t content to listen to the preacher (at my church, that would be my dad) we had to memorize the thing and be ready to argue at any time with all those hell-bound “unbelieversâ€â€¦you know, like Baptists or Lutherans or (heaven forbid if we encountered) a catholic. It seems odd to me that many Christians are so confident they know right and wrong when the bible contradicts itself so much on the subject. I don’t suppose you will give me a biblical answer, but for instance,

1. Is slavery moral?

2. Are men and women to be respected as equals?

3. Should children or descendants be punished for the sins of previous generations?

4. Should moral people go to war?

The Bible contradicts itself on many moral issues. So do many other ancient writings. What is considered acceptable in one culture is not in another. My father-in-law is a missionary in east Africa. In that region, it is socially/culturally acceptable to physically discipline your wife. It is morally acceptable to them. They think of it really no different than many Americans would think about spanking their kids. As a culture, we do not find it acceptable for men to beat their wives. Will we some day decide it isn’t okay to spank the kids either? We already are moving that way, aren’t we?

My belief and my point is that morality is a development of the human mind. We create it. Humanity created the Law Code of King Hammurabi, The Magna Carta, The Constitution of the United States or America and the Bible. We decide what is good or righteous, and every few years, we decide what is better and more righteous. With the constitution we do this by amendments. Initially, slavery was allowed. Later, the 13th amendment abolished slavery. It is too bad there is no such process to amend the Bible. (Some amending was likely done by those that put it together in the 3rd/4th century) So good moral Christians are left coming up with tricky theological explanations as to why their book endorses slavery in the old testament and in the new. Why women are treated as property in the old testament and “saved in childbearing†(1st Tim 2:15) in the new testament. Why in various passages, children and descendants are punished for the sins or forbearers while in other places this idea is denounced, and why killing another human is denounced yet thousands of god-endorsed killings occur throughout scripture. Why witches and homosexuals are an abomination to the lord and are to be given death, yet I don’t know many Christians that want this to be the law of the land today.

Here is a quote from Mark Twain that sums some of what I am attempting to explain. I know I have been a bit all over the place. Hope you can get something out of all this.

“In my schoolboy days I had no aversion to slavery. I was not aware that there was anything wrong about it. No one arraigned it in my hearing; the local papers said nothing against it; the local pulpit taught us that God approved it, that it was a holy thing, and the doubter need only look in the Bible if he wished to settle his mind — and then the texts were read aloud do us to make the matter sure.†Mark Twain

[Kirangel]

"Speak what you think today in hard words and tomorrow speak what tomorrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said today."

 

That's awesome. I'm going to have to steal it for my myspace page

 

Thanks for posting junkpoet, I enjoyed reading it.