Proof Against Christianity

[Guest mr. j]

Please refrain from hateful posts towards me or christianity in this topic. When I refer to christianity I refer to the belief system, not the believer. All I am asking for is the best proofs you know of that disproves christianity. This must be of course well founded arguments, not ranting. I would prefer to hear proofs that have not yet been rebutted (an easy search on google can verify this), or if you can further a case of a previous argument. I am also not looking for proof that disproves for instance calvanism, but that disproves the validity of the religion.

 

Looking forward to hear(read) your thoughts.

[Fweethawt]

*moving thread to Lion's Den*

 

We have another Christian™ asking us for proof.

 

More than likely, this is gonna get ugly.

 

To the Lion's Den it goes.

[Former Follier]

You mean, other than the fact that the god you worship and serve is an impossibility?

[Ouroboros]

Proof against Christianity?

 

Well, one of them is that Jesus said that we (the unbelievers) would know Christianity was from God by the Christians being united, which they're aren't, so what other proofs do you really need?

 

John 17

 

KVJ

20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

 

NAS

20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. 2 "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. 24 "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 "O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; 26 and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

 

Or, maybe the explanation is that God didn't listen to Jesus' prayer?

[white_raven23]

Please refrain from hateful posts towards me or christianity in this topic.

 

I just love it when people come to our forums and tell US how to behave in our own house. Mr J, if it's respect you want, you generally have to get it the old fashioned way. By earning it. Not by insisting you get it.

 

When I refer to christianity I refer to the belief system, not the believer. All I am asking for is the best proofs you know of that disproves christianity. This must be of course well founded arguments, not ranting.

 

Okay. How about the illogic of infinite punishment for finite crimes? A lifetime only lasts so long. Anywhere from 0 to 110 years of age (there may be a few peole who get to be older....but you get the point). Even if someone sins their ass off their whole life, how does that justify punishment forever? Also, the purpose of punishment in any form is usually meant as a corrective action to ensure decent behavior after the punishment has ended. If the punishment never ends, and has no corrective intent, then you just have torture for torture's sake. This goes in direct opposition of the "kind and loving" god christianity remixed the god of the Jews into.

[Japedo]

Please refrain from hateful posts towards me or christianity in this topic. When I refer to christianity I refer to the belief system, not the believer. All I am asking for is the best proofs you know of that disproves christianity. This must be of course well founded arguments, not ranting. I would prefer to hear proofs that have not yet been rebutted (an easy search on google can verify this), or if you can further a case of a previous argument. I am also not looking for proof that disproves for instance calvanism, but that disproves the validity of the religion.

 

Looking forward to hear(read) your thoughts.

 

 

 

 

You have set your 'debate' in a bubble. Anything that is hard to hear or hard to get your head around you will knee jerk and claim it's an attack against you or Christianity. It never ceases to amaze me that self proclaiming Christians come to a place that it's very name is the opposite of their belief and demand we don't be the heretics they claim we are.

 

 

A Few Proofs:

 

If God was god he wouldn't need to copy-cat other gods.

Why would the God of the Jews demand blood from a human and participate in human sacrifice if it's against his own laws?

Human sacrifice is barbaric and anyone that glorifies it (even if it is a half god/half human) is equally as barbaric.

Why would the God of the Jews Promise a Messiah to free them, (who will only be just a man like Moses) then send a god?

What proof does anyone have that Mary was a Virgin?

Why would God the Jews say the messiah was going to be from the house of David? Blood lines are extremely important in the "OT", why is Christ only traced thru the house of David thru his Father Joseph who has no Blood relation to Christ?

12 followers that follow the son are exactly the same as 12 followers that follow the sun of the zodiac.

Your entire buybull is full of sun/son worship. (nothing new under the sun here)

If Christ was God how can he be tempted by Evil? Why would he demand no one can follow him unless they hate their families?

Why would god break his own Sabbath laws?

why would god break his own marriage laws?

Why would god break his own murder laws?

why would god trick people into not believing?

Why does your god define abuse as "love"

Why the gun to the head love me or die. This sounds like a desperate sickO that can't get love any other way then by force.

I could go on.. but that's enough for now.

[Former Follier]

That whole basis for your theology, Mr. J, is the concept that humans have free will with which we can either accept or reject the free gift of salvation God has offered us through Jesus Christ, right? Do humans really have free will to choose? Did God harden the Pharaoh's heart against the Israelites? What's to say that we ex-Christians weren't born to disbelieve? What's to say you weren't born to believe (a myth)? Wouldn't that make you a mindless drone?

[Taphophilia]

Okay,

 

Why didn't Jesus sacrifice fullfill any of the precepts required by the Torah of a blood sacrifice?

 

Why wasn't ancient Egyptian civilization, which existed well before the supposed flood of Genesis, ever interupted by a flood?

 

If God is so Good and Satan is so evil, why is God killing so many more people in the Bible than Satan does?

 

Why does God order Ethnic Cleansing?

 

Just one of the many instances:

Samuel 15:3

"Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do

not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and

sheep, camel and donkey."

 

(God's obviously not an animal lover either.)

[Deva]

Mr. J: The burden of proof is on you. The entire religion of Christianity is based upon a bunch of ancient texts stuck together in one book, the Bible. It is riddled with contradictions, impossible supernatural events, metaphor, and fiction. It was amended many times and eventually compiled by a committee of those in power 400 years after the purported events. So where do you stand? It falls upon you to defend this source of your religion to my satisfaction.

[Mike D]

All I am asking for is the best proofs you know of that disproves christianity.

How about the complete absurdity of the source document for Christianity itself - the Bible? In it we have all kinds of ludicrous claims (here's just a few examples):

 

1. Talking animals (snake, donkey, etc)

2. Talking plants

3. Virgin births

4. Zombies coming back to life and being launched into deep space

5. Angels having sex with humans

6. The earth stopped and went backwards (and the sun was stopped to extend the day, lol!)

7. Whores riding around on dragons, satyr's, flying horses and other mythical beings

8. Sticks turning into snakes

9. Mental disorders are really demon possession (lmao!)

10. Invisible people are real (i.e. jesus, satan, angels, demons, etc)

 

This is only a short list, you can literally compile pages of this stuff and I have seen sites who already have. Who in their right mind would just accept these ridiculous claims as true and then request someone else disprove them? Do we really need someone to disprove that animals and plants can talk or that stopping the sun will extend the day?

 

Sure you can always get around any of these by saying they're metaphorical or allegory and nothing should be taken literally, or you could do like so many Christians do and just "pick and choose" the items you want to be true and throw out the others. But at the end of the day, there's no reason for any sane, rational thinking intelligent person to think any of this is true or that they should be "disproven" in order to feel comfortable they really aren't true.

 

That's my 2 cents anyway...

[Mike D]

We have another Christian™ asking us for proof.

Did you notice.... I remembered the satyr's!

[Fweethawt]

We have another Christian™ asking us for proof.

Did you notice.... I remembered the satyr's!

 

I certainly did!!!!

 

 

And I also laughed my ass off when I scrolled down to find this post.

 

 

When I started to read your first post, I was waiting to see if you were going to forget them. Then when I read it, I was like - WOW! SOMEBODY FINALLY remembered!!

 

 

[alanh]

I am also not looking for proof that disproves for instance calvanism, but that disproves the validity of the religion.

Just the very existence of Calvinism, along with the rest of the 33,799 denominations disproves the validity of the religion. If I claimed there are 38,000 versions of reality and you can pick and choose which one you want to believe in (or even create your own) nobody would take me seriously, but with Christianity that's exactly the case and no one bats an eye.

[Former Follier]

Well, that's just because there is an infinite number of ways of looking at the same God... just like the blind men and the elephant analogy. At least, that's what they claim. Again... God is awfully good at playing hide and seek with the things He "created in His own image."

[Luke Wolf]

Considering the goals of the early church, and what they did to further themselves, is enough proof for me.

Also, the Bible says "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." The problem with this, if you take witch to mean one who practices witchcraft, proves the authors of the Bible were ignorant of at least one subject. Witchcraft is the channeling of energy, and evoking of any god, be it Jehovah, Zeus, Loki, or whoever. Also, Genesis claims God made us in his likeness and image. If Adam and Eve were really made like God, they would have known the difference between good and evil before eating the fruit of the tree. Also, if we were made like god, the same powers that god has would be our birth right, not sin. Moses doing the plagues, the staff to a snake, parting the sea, and other stuff, was magick. Was he somehow above his god's own laws since he was sent by god?

[BlueGiant]

Well, I will use what Christians have called "well-reasoned" arguments here:

 

I have a book that is the word of reality. That is 100% true. And it says that Christianity is a crock. Not what we are looking for here, though, is it?

 

You want something a bit better? Let me ask you a question, then: What is the first sin?

[white_raven23]

Oh...and if you don't count the Book of Mormon, there hasn't been a single "inspired" word from this god since about 95 A.D. Somewhat odd that a being concerned that his priests should wear undergarments and gives precise instruction on how to treat a person with diarrhea (hint.....he can touch...nothing!), has nothing to say for 1900+ years hence?

[Thurisaz]

Umm. Why oh why am I not surprised at all that morontheist has run away (screaming, probably), back to church I bet to reinforce its brainwashing?

 

[mwc]

Just one of the many instances:

Samuel 15:3

"Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do

not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and

sheep, camel and donkey."

You can't use this one. Didn't you get the memos?

 

Exodus 17:14 - And the Lord said to Moses, Make a record of this in a book, so that it may be kept in memory, and say it again in the ears of Joshua: that all memory of Amalek is to be completely uprooted from the earth.

...

Deuteronomy 25:19 - So when the Lord your God has given you rest from all who are against you on every side, in the land which the Lord your God is giving you for your heritage, see to it that the memory of Amalek is cut off from the earth; keep this in mind.

We are to remember to forget all about Amalek.

 

mwc

[mwc]

I am also not looking for proof that disproves for instance calvanism, but that disproves the validity of the religion.

This being the case I guess you would have to define the religion first since, from my perspective, Calvanism (as is any other sect you may encounter) is simply an attempt to define xianity.

 

The four gospels are all anonymous material and, as a result, not a single word or idea can be positively attributed to a "Jesus of Nazareth" the assumed founder of the religion in question. Since no other first hand source directly quotes this "Jesus" either we're simply stuck with hearsay from anonymous and pseudonymous sources. Any source that does identify themselves, such as "Paul," never knew a "Jesus" in person and, as a result, it would be better said that "Paul" is more like a "Calvin," in that he is simply operating his own sect using his own definitions and interpretations. Unlike "Calvin," he just managed to merge into the orthodox mainstream so that they became synonymous (ie. if Calvin managed to accomplish this we wouldn't reference something called "Calvinism" but simply "Christianity" as Calvin's theology would have merged into the mainstream orthodox system). The so-called "church fathers" are even further removed from any possible first hand knowledge and even more inclined to be in "sects" (even though one, or more, wound up as the orthodoxy) so including them in the discussion should probably be avoided as well.

 

So, having said all that, I'm hoping that you can further define your requirements of what this religion is(n't) so that it can be properly discussed since you seem to be the one setting all the rules here. As it stands there doesn't seem to be a religion to talk about at all.

 

mwc

[Guest mr. j]

I am happy to accept any proofs regarding Paul, or any other Bible verses, or even church history (by that I do not refer to people who used the bible to further their own means, but I refer to the history and origin of the christian faith).

 

The reason for this post is not to try and provide proofs for every objection, but I am interested in what everyone has to say or what they think.

 

If anyone wants to ask me a direct question, I do not mind answering what I think, even if the answer is that I do not have one at the moment.

 

I also asked not for hate speach, becuase I would not like to try and fend of attacks (a persons first knee-jerk reaction to an attack is to try and fight back - which at the moment I do not have the patience to do). Objections that makes a person think, and difficult questions or proofs is what interests me.

 

Hope this clears up some of the questions raised.

[Astreja]

I'll try to be civil, Mr. J...

 

I do not believe that people can come back from the dead after several days. I know of no such case in modern medical history, and consider it even more unlikely that something like that could have happened 2,000 years ago. I can, however, consider a scenario where Jesus (if he actually existed) was in a death-like state for several days without actually dying.

 

I do not find the concept of "Sin" (Original or otherwise) to be credible in any way, precisely because of the usual Christian conception of their god. How can any mortal, even an obscenely powerful one, injure an immortal and omniscient and omnipotent being? To put things in perspective, try to imagine one of the bacteria in your digestive tract not believing in you. Do you feel any particular enmity towards that bacterium? Would you send it to Hell for simply being itself?

 

The mechanism for substitutionary atonement makes no sense at all. How, exactly, does the sacrifice of one person help another? And why is the Biblical god so bloodthirsty in the first place?

 

Finally, I know of no impartial historical evidence to corroborate the more spectacular goings-on in the Gospels. One would hope that someone in close proximity to Jerusalem would have noticed and recorded an earthquake or a three-hour solar eclipse.

 

All in all, there's simply too much mythological nonsense for me to take Christianity seriously. Its moral values are certainly not unique -- Buddhism has a code of behaviour that's at least as good, and IMO more consistent (and backed up with some fairly substantial cognitive psychology as well).

[Deva]

If anyone wants to ask me a direct question, I do not mind answering what I think, even if the answer is that I do not have one at the moment.

 

Mr J: It seems to me that others have already asked you direct questions, which you are not answering. Here is another -- To you, what constitutes proof in matters of religion?

[Eccles]

Proof against Christianity: Read the bible. That is sufficient proof.

[Ouroboros]

Exodus 17:14 - And the Lord said to Moses, Make a record of this in a book, so that it may be kept in memory, and say it again in the ears of Joshua: that all memory of Amalek is to be completely uprooted from the earth.

...

Deuteronomy 25:19 - So when the Lord your God has given you rest from all who are against you on every side, in the land which the Lord your God is giving you for your heritage, see to it that the memory of Amalek is cut off from the earth; keep this in mind.

We are to remember to forget all about Amalek.

 

mwc

Good one MWC! It wouldn't be so hard to forget the Amaleks if the Bible quit reminding us. So if God really wants us to forget them, we have to throw away the Bible and forget what it said.