garrisonjj Posted September 8, 2007 Share Posted September 8, 2007 Before my deconversion, I was an extremely "prayful" person. Reciting countless catholic prayers, talking to god, asking for things, and I never once, ever felt his presence. Even Mother Theresa's prayers were unanswered and she doubted. How do you explain the priests and seminarians who pray for untold hours and I never once heard them feeling god's presence. What makes men continue to worship besids the fear of hell. Let's see. If god is all knowing, he knew I would go to hell before he created me and created me anyway. Oh yes, I suppose my free will could change my outcome.Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted September 8, 2007 Share Posted September 8, 2007 They pray because they believe fervently that they will be answered, or at least hope that they will, I think. Most prayer is driven in part because the one praying thinks that it will work, or that at least it could work. Lack of answers or "feeling God's presence" is explained away via countless means, such as that God answers prayers in his own time, not ours, and other such excuses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onyx Posted September 8, 2007 Share Posted September 8, 2007 Security Blanket, nuff said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShackledNoMore Posted September 8, 2007 Share Posted September 8, 2007 When you pray, either what you're praying for will happen, no connection with your prayer, it won't, in which case you'll attribute to god's not having a reason to answer your prayer, or to not answer it now, and/or you'll mind-fuck yourself, e.g., make it seem to fit that god has answered your prayer--sort of. If you perceive that your prayers are heard and some of them might be answered, then the hopes that they'll be answered, and the fallacy that even if they're not they're heard and god is simply looking after your best interest in his inscrutable godly ways that we're too stupid to understand should keep you praying. That's in addition to the fear of hell angle or simple brainwashing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted September 8, 2007 Share Posted September 8, 2007 My little corner of the world is in a world-class drought. Most all the little church billboards (what'ya call those things, the little brick billboards outfront the church?) have had prayers for rain for some time now. The spook in charge seems to be thumbing his omnipotent nose at them. We're most likely having a semi-hurricane at the coast, but nary a drop for our diligent pray-ers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted September 8, 2007 Share Posted September 8, 2007 People pray because it's a means of focused mediation. How many times do you need to talk to someone about a problem, concern, or a question? When you do this, typically you come back with the answer yourself. Talking to another is a means of you finding your own answer. So I think for many people praying to a God "up there", is a way to externalize their own thoughts for the purpose of clarity and consideration . I know myself, mulling thoughts around in my head; I often get stuck in a rut because I'm too close to it. By talking about it, you get it out of your head and in front of you so you can more easily examine it. Praying to God helps focus your intentions and desires for purpose and clarity. The problem with belief in God comes when instead of coming to clarity of thought of what you need to do , it leads to begging for God to take it from you. We are God. God is an external image of ourselves. We pray to ourselves. If someone "feels" God, well that is often a result of purging those emotions that often drove them to prayer in a moment of self-realization or of releasing the anxiety by externalizing it. I should add too that it's also a response to a certain aesthetic perspective, that of a grand-purpose of existence. However, God is such a politicized symbol, it seems more a hinderence in the long run, than a benefit. I'll talk to friends instead for clarity, or go for a long bike ride, or listen to a wonderful album to empty my thoughts into the void for them to come back with a renewed perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4truth Posted September 15, 2007 Share Posted September 15, 2007 This prayer thing has been bugging me a lot lately. If there was a God, would he change his mind just because enough people asked him to? Does God just sit around planning awful things to happen to people, then if people ask for safety, protection, healing, etc., he'll realize his mistake? I hate it when people say they escaped some horrible tragedy because they asked for God's protection. Does that mean that all of the people who do have terrible tragedies weren't praying enough? Or just that God didn't like them as well? What a ridiculous concept! Even Christians should realize that if God is omniscient, there's no point in telling him anything because he already knows it. If he is unchangeable, why bother asking him to change his mind? Sure is a time-waster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPw4 Posted September 15, 2007 Share Posted September 15, 2007 personally I think people pray for the same reason they play the lottery. For the chance that something MIGHT happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a skeptical believer Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 People pray because it's a means of focused mediation. Absolutely! It's a very personal time for self reflection. I would never ask an invisible presence for something tangible. Our services are on Friday evenings and on the rare times I attend, between the melodies & the atmosphere, I find that I am able to close my eyes and let go of some of the undesirable baggage I have had to deal with the whole week and leave there more at peace than when I walked in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 Prayer is another way of demonstrating you believe that you believe. After all, would you spend all of this time talking to a being that doesn't really exist? Just another important facet of the whole self-deception trip. It takes a lot of work to be faithful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 People pray because it's a means of focused mediation. Absolutely! It's a very personal time for self reflection. I would never ask an invisible presence for something tangible. Our services are on Friday evenings and on the rare times I attend, between the melodies & the atmosphere, I find that I am able to close my eyes and let go of some of the undesirable baggage I have had to deal with the whole week and leave there more at peace than when I walked in. That's what's interesting about religion. It's a very human thing to desire the place or means to clear one's mind, and it seems an organized religious gathering is a means to that for some who participate in them: Especially if it's rich in symbolism and ritual. My son who leans towards the evangelical/literalist flavor of Christianity was dismayed and almost mocking of some Catholics he saw praying the rosary in unison over the death of someone they knew. He commented, "That's not praying". To which I had to tell him that it was really no different than what he does when he prays. That the act of praying, the ritual of finding that place for special "communication" and that act of vocalizing words offered to a god were all about focused meditation. I further offended him by suggesting that the Catholic's form of prayer was more effective than his, because it involved repetition and chant, which is more conducive to letting go of distracting side thoughts. He didn't care to hear that. When I was in Church, the music and the atmosphere was what allowed me to "think on heavenly things". Prayer was something that was originally about reaching for something "more" in existence, but with the indoctrination of "Bible teachings", it became this pleading sort of act that had a judging god at the other end. Not very conducive to elevating the spirit. Now I understand the nature of the symbol god, and with the history of a sullied symbol I avoid any flavor of that world. I find other means to that end, and without that image of god in the way, I can move far beyond what any days of sitting in a pew or kneeling at an altar in supplication ever offered me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 I've read quite a few posts on exC about the different experiences people have had with prayer. I conclude that a lot depends on personality, and also on our up-bringing or teaching about how to pray. There's "head religion" and also "heart religion." I think where I come from we were stronger on heart religion. So one prayed with one's entire being, sighs that were too deep to be uttered, the Holy Spirit mediating to God for us. (I can't get it in English. Mostly I just heard the verse repeated in German. It's somewhere in Paul's writing. More of a mystical approach.) I think Antlerman and skeptical believer describe this. Contrast this with the idea that one can just say "sorry, I sinned, please forgive me, in jesus' name amen" and then go on in life as though nothing happened. I would call this total head religion because the feelings are not at all involved. No feelings of guilt whatsoever. No penitence, no adoration, no joy, no nothing. Just say the right formula and you get to go to heaven. This sounds more like what garrisonjj describes. I am strongly biased to heart stuff, whether asecular or religious, so there ya go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 Sample of prayer in heart religion (song from my youth): Prayer is the soul's sincere desire unuttered or expressed The burden of a hidden fire that trembles in the breast. Prayer is the burden of a sigh, the falling of a tear The upward glancing of an eye when none but God is near Prayer is the simplest form of speech that infant lips can try Prayer the sublimest strains that reach the majesty on high Prayer is the contrite sinner's voice returning from his ways While angels in their songs rejoice and say behold he prays. Prayer is the Christian's vital breath, the Christian's native air His watchward at the gate of death, he enters heaven with prayer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldjew Posted September 20, 2007 Share Posted September 20, 2007 I like my reinvented prayers best just to pis off God and to challenge him to answer them as after all he can do anything as he is God. "Our fucker whom are not in heaven Howie be thy name. Thy king pin come, thy Willie be done on the ear as it is in New Haven. Give us this day our day old bread, and for give us for passing gas as we forgive those who pass gas in front of us. And lead us not into hot temperatures, but deliver us from the Beatles. For thy is the number one kingpin and the power broker and the bloody gory for never. Ah women." "Now I lay me down to sleep I pray the landlord my rent he does not keep If I should die before I wake I pray the landlord won't even weep." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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