I Need Help Getting Over Christian Miracles That Aren't Easily Disproved

[bluewizard]

I need help getting over Christian miracles that aren't easily disproved. like for example, a whole group of people allegedly seeing Mary, the mother of Jesus, during the 7 day War in Egypt in the 70s. I just can't le tit go in my mind, I'm thinking with 2 minds which is a problem, I'm thinking to myself "But if I forget all this and let it go, I may go to Hell if this is true" but at the same time I think God is an asshole, not worthy of my worship at all and is just mythology and that the Bible is a lot of bullshit, but I just can't get this miracle stuff out of my head because the things I got over early in my Ex-Christianity were disprovable by science, but these miracle sightings arent so disprovable. And I'd really like to be worry-free in my life concerning this religion stuff, but this is my only obstacle and I don't want to go back to being a Christian again just because of a what-if fear that can't be disproved. I really need help and if anyone could help please do so because I've struggled with this for the past couple months.

[mwc]

a whole group of people allegedly seeing Mary, the mother of Jesus, during the 7 day War in Egypt in the 70s

Sounds to me like the issue is a "miracle" that isn't easily proved rather than the other way around. Otherwise I may as well believe any person, or persons, that has some story that I can't easily explain away since I wasn't present at the supposed event (bigfoot, UFO's, etc.). At the very least was the virgin wearing a name tag or did she simply look like the paintings (very un-Jewish)?

 

mwc

[מה טבו]

I wouldn't give too much credence to mass sightings. Even large groups of people can be led to believe something is false. This is why we have the term "mass hysteria."

 

Think about the hordes of people who claim to see UFO's or to see Elvis alive. Do a bit of Googling. You'll see accounts of "miracles" in every religion - from pagans who have seen local Gods too Haitian voodoo practicioners who claim to be posessed by spirits to Muslims claiming miracles done by Allah. Unless you believe they're all true, you're going to have to re-evaluate your approach to stories of miracles.

[Dhampir]

My question is: How many people there saw the same thing, but didn't see the Virgin Mary, if you catch my drift?

[Jun]

I'm with mwc here.

 

How did they know they were seeing Mary? Did she announce who she was? It is very, very doubtful that the historical Mary (if she existed) would have looked anything like the statues and paintings one is accustomed to.

[Japedo]

I need help getting over Christian miracles that aren't easily disproved. like for example, a whole group of people allegedly seeing Mary,

 

 

 

Well... Even more saw the Statue of Liberty disappear before their eyes. You'll hafta ask David Copperfield how he did it. I don't have the answer... Even though the masses saw it disappear we know it's an illusion, same premise for any mass happening.

 

 

[asdf99]

This makes me think the Mormans... Read this from wikipedia... "Mormons believe that Joseph Smith, Jr. translated the Book of Mormon into English by divine inspiration from golden plates that he received from the angel Moroni. Mormons believe that the Book of Mormon is another scriptural witness of Jesus Christ that is comparable to the Bible, which they also believe to be the word of God."

 

Now this whole religion is based on a miracle too. But why don't all christians convert over to this religion and believe it to be true? Because nobody knows for sure if it real or if this is just plain B.S. Thats why people in my ex-church said momanism is a cult. But I think christianity is a cult of agnostics and other skeptics just the same way. Nobody knows for sure about any religion because there is no proof. ONe thing that always stands out is that all religions say you gotta have faith. Basically faith in the fact that there is no proof but we want you to believe it anyway. Anyway... unless I actually see Jesus turn water into wine, or even for him to appear before my eyes... I can't believe in something that seems to me is just a story.

[R. S. Martin]

I need help getting over Christian miracles that aren't easily disproved.

 

Well um, first I would need to have it proved that there was a miracle in the first place before I could go about disproving it. Usually when I look closely at this kind of thing there was a hoax somehow. If I can't figure out what the hoax was, I still believe there was a hoax or a made-up story. I know there's words to describe this kind of attitude, words like prejudice and bias. In this case, maybe I should not have responded....

[Ouroboros]

BlueW, do you have more information about the event? What was the circumstances?

 

When I read your post, I was thinking about the N-Ray episode last century when a lot of people made themselves believe they saw some kind of mystical effects of a ray that couldn't be explained with natural laws, and it all came out to be the effects of self-delusion, and human condition when people see what they want to see, because they want to approve of what is commonly accepted (pathological science). So please give a bit more info about that particular event, if you can.

 

(Hey, this is a very good whiskey. If I don't make sense, I blame the contents of my glass...)

[Deva]

BlueW, do you have more information about the event? What was the circumstances?

 

Bluewizard: I agree with Hans. Let's bring this thing out into the light of reason and collectively analyze it!

 

Since you say Egypt, are you referring to the Zeitoun apparitions?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitoun_apparitions

 

There have been literally thousands of Marian apparitions. There are shrines worldwide. I would be interested in why these are more compelling or troubling to you than those at Lourdes, Fatima, Medugorje, etc. Do you think they have compelling photographic evidence?

 

Said it before, will say it again. Just because a crowd of people say something happened does not make it real. Crowd psychology, out-and-out hoaxes and the human desire for an individual to feel important , these are just some reasons. Also, where Mary gives alleged messages they are usually "pray the rosary, pray for peace" something like that. Nothing really compelling to my mind. Nothing a priest would not also tell someone to do.

[qadeshet]

I cannot think of a single Religion, living or dead, that hasn't used supposed miracles to convince the credulous. Therefore all Religions are true, or none.

[bluewizard]

BlueW, do you have more information about the event? What was the circumstances?

 

Bluewizard: I agree with Hans. Let's bring this thing out into the light of reason and collectively analyze it!

 

Since you say Egypt, are you referring to the Zeitoun apparitions?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitoun_apparitions

 

There have been literally thousands of Marian apparitions. There are shrines worldwide. I would be interested in why these are more compelling or troubling to you than those at Lourdes, Fatima, Medugorje, etc. Do you think they have compelling photographic evidence?

 

Said it before, will say it again. Just because a crowd of people say something happened does not make it real. Crowd psychology, out-and-out hoaxes and the human desire for an individual to feel important , these are just some reasons. Also, where Mary gives alleged messages they are usually "pray the rosary, pray for peace" something like that. Nothing really compelling to my mind. Nothing a priest would not also tell someone to do.

Yes, that's what I'm referirng to and I've read reports of audience members syaing they seen it and I seen the glowing dove-like things captured on videotape was well, that's probably why I've had so much trouble getitng it out of my mind. I think it also stems from the fact that I've given eevry possibilty a chanc eof being true or not, which isn't such a good tihng now as I get caught up in situations like these.

[bluewizard]

And the sightings at Lourdes and all the other places I havent looked into much and just asusmed people were wrong about thos eor were just lieing, while this one I'm struggling with is a bit more troubling.

[Ouroboros]

How do they know that the apparition was St. Mary? Why wasn't it Aphrodite or Venus or some other hot mama? Maybe it was Mrs Santa Clause, who really knows? After all, each vision like that always show some kind of non-Jewish European looking with the clothes St Mary was portraid with in most paintings. More likely she was short, and dark, and maybe not that perfect hair (and definitely NO MAKEUP) and so on.

[quicksand]

You consider that a miracle? Really? I got even a better one for you. How about God healing amputees, instead? A floating Mary is not very compelling evidence for me when you stop to consider that this hallucination was shared by a few true believers. And just what are "glowing dove-like things"? Too general and not an explicit of a description to be of any qualitative use. Furthermore, this alleged "miracle" only presupposes Christianity - what about other religions? Could these "glowing dove-like things" in fact not be the Vimanas - the hindu flying machines of the Vedas? This discription of "glowing dove-like things" seems to be in more step with Hindu beliefs. Therefore, Hinduism is true.

 

Rule of thumb here. Until you can rule out most/all natural causes, you should not presume or accept a supernatural explanation because it seems satisfiy the need for an explanation. Only objective analysis of a phenomena you should trust. Preferbly in a lab. Otherwise you leave yourself open to all sorts of credulous claims and because this claim is extravagant, the level of evidence must be of equal quality. This case has none of that. Therefore, I think you can safely dismiss this alleged manifested miracle of Bible-god and attribute it to more to the psychology of humans, or the honest mistake of sincere non-critical believers.

[Ouroboros]

Okay, I did take some time to look at the photos... and what really scared me was that I could see UFO's. This was not sightings of Mrs God, but of aliens!!! One photo even said "picture of 6 spiritual beings", and it looks like blobs that just as well could be Spongebob Squarepants, or Father Christmas himself! So nah, the Mary on a Toast was better quality. Maybe God improved the resolution on the spiritual imprint unit to the whooping 1.2 MPix.

 

link

[quicksand]

These types of statement gets my bullshit detector buzzing:

 

The sick were cured and blind persons received their sight, but most importantly large numbers of unbelievers were converted...

 

Hyperbole. Did any of the cured make it to a hospital for verification?

 

...beings shaped like doves and flying over the church. These beings appeared from nowhere, did not flap their wings while flying at high speeds and disappeared as they came.

 

Oh really? So, apparently Angels do have wings, but have no need to flap them? And God is a designer? Let's see what else doesn't flap their wings? Oh yeah, airplanes, kites...

 

Another photo of the transfiguration of our Lady in Her full bodyover the church named after Her in Zeitoun, Egypt.

Being a designer, a big photoshop guy and someone with traditional knowledge of traditional photography, this looks super-imposed.

[Deva]

Okay, I did take some time to look at the photos... and what really scared me was that I could see UFO's. This was not sightings of Mrs God, but of aliens!!! One photo even said "picture of 6 spiritual beings", and it looks like blobs that just as well could be Spongebob Squarepants, or Father Christmas himself! So nah, the Mary on a Toast was better quality. Maybe God improved the resolution on the spiritual imprint unit to the whooping 1.2 MPix.

 

link

 

 

OK, Bluewizard, I have looked a quite a few of the still photographs, but with my slow dial up computer, will not be able to view the films provided on the link. Maybe some of our members with fast computer connections could analyze this part of the evidence and give a description and opinion.

 

My reaction to the still photographs was basically the same as HanSolo's reaction. To me they look like bright blobs, some in a series and a large one over the church. Honestly they could be anything. Some of the photos look touched up to me, the edges are too hard to be real. The "six spiritual beings" look like cut out paper butterflies layed out on someone's lawn.

 

Something else suspicious to me is that it took place at a church. What better way to create a pilgrimage site and get more donations to this place? Again, I have not seen the films, but the evidence from the still photographs seems to me to be very far from convincing.

[.god]

most of those \"things\" look nothing like doves or humans or anything other than flares, light leaks, or flakes of silver halide

 

I\'m sure the lot of us could come of w/ more convincing apparitions if we just picked up an old 35mm camera, loaded it w/ some high speed black and white film and started shooting photos everywhere we went. Want to see more inexplicable apparitions? Just be real sloppy while you shoot, aim towards light source, add crappy uncoated filters on your lens, don\'t bother covering the eyepiece w/ your face when you expose the image.

 

Then process that neg role (don\'t be too sloppy about exposing that neg to light, you could destroy your film neg w/ too many ghosts and apparitions) in the chemical bath of your darkroom, expose some prints and scan with a loupe for your cool new apparitions. Show your friends! Scare your parents!

 

Name your new ghostly friends! =)

 

 

I once was driving home along a freeway late at night, tired after about 5 hours of continuous driving and I saw these fast moving white lights along the freeway. A bunch of them moving in formation at what appeared to be a high rate of speed, very quiet, bright and small. What the heck I thought, are those ufo\'s? How come none of the other drivers are reacting?

 

But after staring at the lights for several minutes I finally realized that they were lights on a small farm/pesticide style biplane that was for reasons unknown to me making all sorts of loops and buzzing the farm and and unlit freeway at 11pm at night. When I realized the lights were not at the distance my brain perceived them to be and that they were actually all connected to the same plane I was able to discern the true nature of the lights. The plane was still completely invisible in the darkness though even as I drove past, and I could still consciously \"switch\" my brain into thinking they were fast moving ufo lights (sort of like your typical 3d box on paper optical illusions).

 

It\'s strange how unfailable humans think their senses are, and even more how unfailable film, or even digital film/video is.

 

 

Anyway, speaking of mass hysteria, I\'d be more wary of the following. If you travel to asia, you never know when you might lose your manhood! =)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penis_panic

[mwc]

Since you say Egypt, are you referring to the Zeitoun apparitions?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitoun_apparitions

The older ones look like flares and the newer ones look like Peppers Ghost to me.

 

mwc

[bluewizard]

Thanks for everyone's input, I';m slowly but surely getitng over this, and hopefully over time I'll relaize how ridiculous it was for me to worry about this.

[Luke Wolf]

I forget the exact term, but there are words to describe mass sightings such as that. It's been a few years since I've taken a psychology course, but there are plenty of group effects, including group placebo effects.

[Ouroboros]

Mass hysteria, mass hypnosis, group suggestion?

[Eric_PK]

I need help getting over Christian miracles that aren't easily disproved. like for example, a whole group of people allegedly seeing Mary, the mother of Jesus, during the 7 day War in Egypt in the 70s. I just can't le tit go in my mind, I'm thinking with 2 minds which is a problem, I'm thinking to myself "But if I forget all this and let it go, I may go to Hell if this is true" but at the same time I think God is an asshole, not worthy of my worship at all and is just mythology and that the Bible is a lot of bullshit, but I just can't get this miracle stuff out of my head because the things I got over early in my Ex-Christianity were disprovable by science, but these miracle sightings arent so disprovable. And I'd really like to be worry-free in my life concerning this religion stuff, but this is my only obstacle and I don't want to go back to being a Christian again just because of a what-if fear that can't be disproved. I really need help and if anyone could help please do so because I've struggled with this for the past couple months.

 

Have you ever looked at any general skeptical books? Flim-flam (Randi) is good, as is Shermer's "Why people believe weird things".

[bluewizard]

^Not yet, I really should though, I'd like to get that God is not Great book or something that could help me be comfortable with my beliefs as an atheist.