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Goodbye Jesus

What Would Make You A Non-believer?


TexasFreethinker

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I am 39 and was saved at the age of 19. I'm not a math whiz, but I believe that means I've been a Christian for 20 years. Over those 20 years, I have seen things happen that firmly believe were caused by God. I've seen so many things done in so many lives that I couldn't begin to list them. However, that's just evidence. The reason that I believe He is real is becuase I have faith. I just believe it. I know is sounds dorky to quote a hymn, but "You ask me how I know He lives. He lives within my heart." I try so hard to study His Word and pray and stay close to Him, because I want a close relationship and I want to learn everything I can about Him. But, I hope and pray that if for any reason he did cut himself off from me - for whatever reason - that I would not stop having faith. I hope I never have to find out. It is easy to say that when I've never felt cut off from Him. But I don't believe there is anything that could happen that would make me say "there is no God".

 

I have zero doubts and much evidence that He is real. If He isn't real - well, I haven't lost a thing. But I know He is.

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Sonya, I get what you're saying because it's so similar to how I felt and thought. I didn't believe because of evidence, or arguments, I believed because I believed. And over time things changed, and one day the belief was gone... it was years before I joined this site. Unfortunately there was only one thing I wanted God to do for me, to show me that he existed, and to give me faith again... I'm still waiting. He's quiet, so I can only deduce these alternative options: 1) he doesn't care, 2) or doesn't want me to believe, 2) or he doesn't exist. Which one do you think it is? What makes most sense when you lose your faith and can't believe anymore?

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I have zero doubts and much evidence that He is real.
Anyone else find it funny that Sonya would say this, then in the very next sentence say this:
If He isn't real - well, I haven't lost a thing. But I know He is.
?

 

For that matter, is it not odd that one sentence would consist of these two rather disparate statements: "I have zero doubts" and "and much evidence"?

 

I dunno, maybe I'm just seeing patterns that aren't there, but to me it looks like even the average christian's affirmation of rock-steadiness in their faith is fraught with doubting language.

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Sonya, what I don't understand is why don't you just answer Tex's question? He is asking how you would detect if you were wrong. You don't answer that question. You just tell him how strong your faith is and how much you believe. What would happen if you answered his question?

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If He isn't real - well, I haven't lost a thing.

 

Oh yes you will have. By living in a fantasy world devoted to an imaginary god you will have lost your ability to reason in the here and now, in this life. A mind is a terrible thing to waste. May be a trite cliche, but there is some truth to it.

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I dunno, maybe I'm just seeing patterns that aren't there, but to me it looks like even the average christian's affirmation of rock-steadiness in their faith is fraught with doubting language.

Yes, it is, and I'm starting to realize what made me say things exactly like that when I was Christian.

 

I think it is a form of "love". I think I was in love in having a belief. I loved the fantastic idea of salvation, and Heaven, and I loved trying to figure out the complexity of the faith, and I loved trying to find and understand the explanations to counter the arguments from non-Christians. It isn't really faith or belief, but the wanting and desire to believe that drives some (maybe many) Christians. And in this light I actually think I'm starting to understand what went "wrong" (or actually right) when I lost my faith. ... I lost my love to this belief. And when you lose love in a marriage, you can overcome it by working on it and communicating with each other, but in a fantasy religion God will not work with your and communicate with you, since he can't ... since he doesn't exist, so when the love to the faith is lost, there's nothing that can be done to gain it back except going deeper into the delusion - which I couldn't in my situation, but many still does. This explains the extensive behavior in people and why they go to these lengths to defend their delusion; they just can't let go because they love believing these ideas and they love these fictional characters they have, and it's true "love is blind". But when you lose your love, you suddenly become awake and aware of the faults in your "partner".

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Sonya, I get what you're saying because it's so similar to how I felt and thought. I didn't believe because of evidence, or arguments, I believed because I believed. And over time things changed, and one day the belief was gone... it was years before I joined this site. Unfortunately there was only one thing I wanted God to do for me, to show me that he existed, and to give me faith again... I'm still waiting. He's quiet, so I can only deduce these alternative options: 1) he doesn't care, 2) or doesn't want me to believe, 2) or he doesn't exist. Which one do you think it is? What makes most sense when you lose your faith and can't believe anymore?

 

This might make you angry, but God laid this in my heart when I read this post. That about these options. (4) you are very depressed and need to see a counselor. You are looking for a 'feeling' of belief but are unable to have that emotion/feeling due the depression. (5) God is using this awful circumstance (which He did not cause) to grow you for something huge. But instead of growing you are pulling away. I dunno, just some thoughts. What do I know, right?

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I have zero doubts and much evidence that He is real.
Anyone else find it funny that Sonya would say this, then in the very next sentence say this:
If He isn't real - well, I haven't lost a thing. But I know He is.
?

 

For that matter, is it not odd that one sentence would consist of these two rather disparate statements: "I have zero doubts" and "and much evidence"?

 

I dunno, maybe I'm just seeing patterns that aren't there, but to me it looks like even the average christian's affirmation of rock-steadiness in their faith is fraught with doubting language.

 

I don't doubt, but it is not sinful to doubt - I pray all the time for God to increase my faith. Faith is just what it is - faith. Evidence is just icing on the cake!

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Sonya, what I don't understand is why don't you just answer Tex's question? He is asking how you would detect if you were wrong. You don't answer that question. You just tell him how strong your faith is and how much you believe. What would happen if you answered his question?

 

 

But that's where faith comes in! Hebrews 11:1 Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. My answer is NOTHING........nothing would make me not believe, not even if God killed me. I hope it never comes to that, but I hope I'm ready if I need to take that test.

 

I was not avoiding the question, I really thought I had answered it.

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If He isn't real - well, I haven't lost a thing.

 

Oh yes you will have. By living in a fantasy world devoted to an imaginary god you will have lost your ability to reason in the here and now, in this life. A mind is a terrible thing to waste. May be a trite cliche, but there is some truth to it.

 

 

I completely disagree with you. My life is very real. I have a real life with a real, responsible job, wiht a real, lovely family and we go to real sports games and have real friends - and my mind is not wasted. I'm actually a very intelligent person even though that is hard for you to imagine. I even support banned book week this week (I bet you didn't even know that, did you!!). I haven't missed out on anything.

 

What if you're wrong???

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I completely disagree with you. My life is very real. I have a real life with a real, responsible job, wiht a real, lovely family and we go to real sports games and have real friends - and my mind is not wasted. I'm actually a very intelligent person even though that is hard for you to imagine. I even support banned book week this week (I bet you didn't even know that, did you!!). I haven't missed out on anything.

 

What if you're wrong???

 

True. All of those things you can point to and say "see! Look! There they are! Right there!" You can't do that with God.

 

That's the wonderfully bizarre thing about religion. In every other respect a person can be sane, live a perfectly normal, healthy life. If someone told you that a magical teapot was zooming around the earth as we speak, you would rightly ask for evidence of said teapot before you believed in it. And yet when it comes to this one matter of God you find it unnecessary to seek such evidence. On the contrary, this idea of "faith" is considered a virtue! The more you can believe in this idea in the absence of - or indeed in direct contradiction to - all known evidence, the more you are lauded among your community for being a really strong believer.

 

What if we're wrong?

 

It is you too who should be asking that question. For what if you're wrong about the religious claims of Muslims, Hindus, Pagans, Zoroastrians and countless other religions who believe in the concept of hell.

 

Surely, following Pascal's Wager to its logical conclusion, you should seek out the God who has the most wicked, evil, vile form of hell and follow him! For it is his hell that you need to avoid most fervently!

 

Can you see how the argument doesn't really work?

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I am 39 and was saved at the age of 19. I'm not a math whiz, but I believe that means I've been a Christian for 20 years. Over those 20 years, I have seen things happen that firmly believe were caused by God. I've seen so many things done in so many lives that I couldn't begin to list them. However, that's just evidence. The reason that I believe He is real is becuase I have faith. I just believe it. I know is sounds dorky to quote a hymn, but "You ask me how I know He lives. He lives within my heart." I try so hard to study His Word and pray and stay close to Him, because I want a close relationship and I want to learn everything I can about Him. But, I hope and pray that if for any reason he did cut himself off from me - for whatever reason - that I would not stop having faith. I hope I never have to find out. It is easy to say that when I've never felt cut off from Him. But I don't believe there is anything that could happen that would make me say "there is no God".

 

I have zero doubts and much evidence that He is real. If He isn't real - well, I haven't lost a thing. But I know He is.

 

When I was 20 I sounded just like this.

 

I'm glad at the age of 41 I can say I don't still sound like a naive 15 yo. I just really, really believe. You know? :twitch:

 

Try this one on for size. "The reason I believe Santa is real is because I have faith." Why is this a stupid statement to make and your's is not?

 

Faith is a nonsensical expression. You bought hook, line and sinker the fail-safe that was written into the the meme to keep you under its control. As an adult you should move past that unless you want to continue to be used by those a bit more pragmatic than yourself.

 

Sorry for the rant, but faith is just so stupid. I'm sure you're not stupid, but you sure did buy into a stupid concept.

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If He isn't real - well, I haven't lost a thing.

 

Oh yes you will have. By living in a fantasy world devoted to an imaginary god you will have lost your ability to reason in the here and now, in this life. A mind is a terrible thing to waste. May be a trite cliche, but there is some truth to it.

 

.... I'm actually a very intelligent person even though that is hard for you to imagine. I even support banned book week this week (I bet you didn't even know that, did you!!). I haven't missed out on anything.

 

What if you're wrong???

 

Unless I am somehow clairvoyant, I doubt I would have known that little piece of information about your support of banned book week. How unchristian of you.

 

I am quite sure there are many intelligent Christians out there. But you must box your mind into a tight little nest of beliefs in order to feel secure and comfortable, and everyone else is wrong. All about issues that cannot be proven.

 

In this one area of religion the most intelligent people just go right off the deep end. It is quite a phenomenon. Why use reasoning in all other areas of life, but abandon it in this one area? That is what I am talking about. I say you have wasted your mind, by not using to investigate who you truly are, not what others say you are.

 

As far as the what if you're wrong, that doesn't bother me. I sure have more than enough evidence to satisfy me that I am not. You just have fear.

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I even support banned book week this week (I bet you didn't even know that, did you!!). I haven't missed out on anything.

 

 

Do you support the books being banned or support them being viable reading material in schools and public libraries? I hafta say that this is shocking to me if it's the later. I know of NO fundy or church that endorse Harry potter, It's Perfectly Normal, and other books of the like. How does this sit with your church?

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Sonya, I get what you're saying because it's so similar to how I felt and thought. I didn't believe because of evidence, or arguments, I believed because I believed. And over time things changed, and one day the belief was gone... it was years before I joined this site. Unfortunately there was only one thing I wanted God to do for me, to show me that he existed, and to give me faith again... I'm still waiting. He's quiet, so I can only deduce these alternative options: 1) he doesn't care, 2) or doesn't want me to believe, 2) or he doesn't exist. Which one do you think it is? What makes most sense when you lose your faith and can't believe anymore?

 

This might make you angry, but God laid this in my heart when I read this post. That about these options. (4) you are very depressed and need to see a counselor. You are looking for a 'feeling' of belief but are unable to have that emotion/feeling due the depression. (5) God is using this awful circumstance (which He did not cause) to grow you for something huge. But instead of growing you are pulling away. I dunno, just some thoughts. What do I know, right?

I almost hate to respond to this as this really is Han's to respond to, but I really needed to say something about this idea of these sorts of things being God having a purpose for something "huge" in our lives.

 

If God did not cause these things as you say, (nor do a damned thing to intervene; nor respond to the prayers of 30,000 people after the fact; nor offer comfort to a grieving family; nor answer the prayers of someone desperate for their faith to be strengthen during a horrifically difficult time, etc, etc, etc), then why as it promises in the Bible that He will not suffer your faith to be tested above what you are able to bear, did the faith of the believer fail? God certainly, if nothing else, failed to uphold that end of the promise and did not come through to help.

 

I see two explanations: God doesn’t care, or God doesn’t exist. I grew from my experiences of great pain, but I had to break free from turning to God for help in order to keep from sinking further into despair. Once I did that, the healing began.

 

P.S. What you say God laid on your heart is totally speculative. You felt an emotional response because of how you see things, but that’s you not God. I could easily say God told me to pour my thoughts into all these posts to reach through your programming so he could liberate your mind from misguided ideas of what faith means, because I feel a deep sympathy for those I hear stuck in that mire of thought. I could then plead to your emotions by saying, “God is calling you out of religion into the reality of Life.”

 

Just a thought on the use of the name God to express your own thoughts and feelings.

 

Sonya, what I don't understand is why don't you just answer Tex's question? He is asking how you would detect if you were wrong. You don't answer that question. You just tell him how strong your faith is and how much you believe. What would happen if you answered his question?

 

 

But that's where faith comes in! Hebrews 11:1 Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. My answer is NOTHING........nothing would make me not believe, not even if God killed me. I hope it never comes to that, but I hope I'm ready if I need to take that test.

 

I was not avoiding the question, I really thought I had answered it.

Can we play a "what if" game?

 

What if:

 

You were transported back in time and met the real Jesus and he was just some average enthusiastic religious guy, but not a darned thing like the water-walking messiah type guy that a bunch of word of mouth believers created decades after the guy disappeard from the scene? In fact when you met him, he smelled bad, drank a lot and even made some overt passes at you. Your thought was "icky" when you met him?

 

Would that end your faith? Then don't say NOTHING could end it.

 

If you discovered that the Jesus that is written about is not a real person, that wouldn't end your faith? Or would you do what those who deny that Elvis is dead do and argue against the evidence that shows he is? Is that faith?

 

To be brutally honest, the fact that you cannot find one single thing that would shake your faith makes me believe quite strongly that you are scared to not believe. You don't even want to entertain the idea of anything that could challenge that faith. That's not faith Sonja, that's denial. "I BELIEVE Elvis is alive!" Faith?

 

I don't doubt, but it is not sinful to doubt - I pray all the time for God to increase my faith. Faith is just what it is - faith. Evidence is just icing on the cake!

There is a difference between possessing intelligence as the raw potential of capacity to comprehend, and the developed skill of critical thinking. To simply say one has faith that something is true without a shred of supporting evidence is not exercising the skill of critical thought. If I say I believe in UFO’s with my whole heart, even though the “evidence” for them are things that are spotty, weak, and more consistently and easily explained by natural phenomena, then I am not arriving at that belief using critical thought or intelligence. It’s an emotional decision to ignore reason. That defines the faith you describe.

 

What if you're wrong???

This is a great question. I think I'm going to start a thread on this question. Brief answer, if the myth of the Bible god turns out to be true and I meet Yahweh and not Zeus or Krishna, or just die and have no awareness whatsover like before my birth, then I would stand before that God and say,

 

"Apparently I got that wrong. But I ask you to judge me as I judged myself. Examine my heart and the actions of my life, and if you see that I acted insincerely then judge me as a liar. If you see that I did less than open myself to the pursuit of understanding, willing to accept truth no matter what form it took, then judge me as opposed to the light of knowledge. If you judge that I was unwilling to conform my beliefs to weight of evidence, than judge me as a coward worshipping his own ideas over truth and as one living his only life insincerely. If you find that I opposed those with other points of view and condemned and rejected them as ignorant and lost, despite their most sincere efforts, then judge me as one who arrogantly supposed himself superior to others and not one who through humilty sincerely strove towards a better understanding and compassion with my heart towards my fellow humans.

 

But if you find that despite all these traits of honoring and attempting to live by these principles that honor the world, myself, and others, you find fault that I was unable to accept that the stories of the Bible were in fact historical realities despite them appearing identical to all other myths of all other religions which are well known to be stories of human beings trying to understand the world in the times they lived and not facts of history, then judge me as condemned for sincerely rejecting the ideas that required ignoring and actively resisting evidence that overwhelming pointed to something far greater, if it pleases you. I then perish with integrity for responding sincerely to what the evidence supported. As I am at your mercy, do now to me as you in accord to your character."

 

Something like that.

 

Quid pro quo, what if you're wrong Sonja?

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My life is very real. I have a real life with a real, responsible job, wiht a real, lovely family and we go to real sports games and have real friends -

<snip>

 

Backup.

 

Sure we can banter the definition of reality..... personally I find the words "real sports game", a bit of an oxymoron. Sure sports games are real, but the games are not representative of real life (sorry sports fans). They are entertainment. Like movies. I love movies. But as a credit to my real life, I'd laugh at myself if I said "I go see real movies" as part of my evidence that my life is real and valid. Entertainments are escapism....not reality. Want more proof? Do you get paid millions for tossing around a ball? No? Then it's not REAL.

 

But I digress slightly....you mention "real" friends. How much adversity have you faced with these "friends" standing by? Have these friends ever turned their backs on (and have you as well) former friends who left the church, or were supportive of their own gay children? Can you discuss anything with these "friends" without the slightest worry about how they might view you after the conversation? How do you define a real friend?

 

What if you're wrong???

 

Antlerman started a new thread on this question....I shall answer it there.

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Sonya, I get what you're saying because it's so similar to how I felt and thought. I didn't believe because of evidence, or arguments, I believed because I believed. And over time things changed, and one day the belief was gone... it was years before I joined this site. Unfortunately there was only one thing I wanted God to do for me, to show me that he existed, and to give me faith again... I'm still waiting. He's quiet, so I can only deduce these alternative options: 1) he doesn't care, 2) or doesn't want me to believe, 2) or he doesn't exist. Which one do you think it is? What makes most sense when you lose your faith and can't believe anymore?

 

This might make you angry, but God laid this in my heart when I read this post. That about these options. (4) you are very depressed and need to see a counselor. You are looking for a 'feeling' of belief but are unable to have that emotion/feeling due the depression.

:lmao::funny: WOW! I mean... WOW!!!

 

You have no clue how extremely far of the mark you are!!! You missed me by 180 degrees. WOW! I almost can't sit still of laughter and giggling... WOW! Man, wow!... I have to take a deep breath... I'm shaking of laughter...

 

You have really have no clue whatsoever.

 

Our family went through Hell. Me and my wife kept it together. We held the family apart. We went through depressions that in 99.99% of the time either make people kill themselves or they divorce.

 

The psychiatrists, psychologists and head doctors and UCLA agree... the miracle in our life is that me and my wife are so strong and positive. Even the counselors where my son goes to school, compliments us for our happy, content and well behaved kids. We've been told we're an example to others. We have less fears, depressions and anger than any family on the street or the average family in America.

 

You have no frigging clue! But hey, it was only one of the options. :HaHa:

 

You just have proved 100% to me that God does not speak to you.

 

When I was Christian I used to be depressed, even thought about killing myself for a while. Do you know what my biggest problem is right now? To get time enough to do all the fun stuff I want to do! Time is my problem, and time management. Oh, and at the moment I got a slight cold, but I hope it will go away by tomorrow.

 

(5) God is using this awful circumstance (which He did not cause) to grow you for something huge.

That thought crossed my mind a lot during my last years as Christian. And what happened? I lost my faith. I saw no evidence of God anywhere. I didn't feel any God existing. Me and my wife and my kids did this. We pulled through with our own power. It's like the footprints in the sand story, but the difference is there is not double set of prints and the only prints in there are mine and my family's. If this was God's will, then it was his will for me to become an atheist.

 

But instead of growing you are pulling away. I dunno, just some thoughts. What do I know, right?

Exactly. What do you know? Doesn't the Holy Spirit tell you things? Ask God, he knows everything according to you, but you have no clue. Why is that? Wouldn't this be a perfect time for God to step in and give you the keys to my heart? But so far you missed so bad that in any online game you'd be stamped "N00b" on your forehead.

 

(Oh my, that was funny! :HaHa: I can't stop giggling... wow, that was the most extreme of the mark comment I've ever encountered... you're great Sonya. You actually made my day! I'm sorry if I'm hurting your feelings, but this was extremely funny!)

 

-edit-

 

Sonya, if I would go by how well my family works now, and how I feel, and how my family feels, and compare that to my time as a Christian, seriously, I do not want to change back. Even my inlaws think we're doing a great job with the kids now! My father in law always were extremely upset that we couldn't control our kids. All the discord and anger and fears that Christianity gives, you just have no clue how rewarding it is to get to the point I am now. We did go through Hell, for 10 years, and there are still issues and problems, but overall, personally, I'm in Heaven now.

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I don't doubt, but it is not sinful to doubt - I pray all the time for God to increase my faith. Faith is just what it is - faith. Evidence is just icing on the cake!

Now imagine that you pray to God to increase your faith, but your faith is not increasing but decreasing. You doubt more, and more, and you pray more and more, and you doubt more and more... why doesn't God answer you prayer?

 

But that's where faith comes in! Hebrews 11:1 Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. My answer is NOTHING........nothing would make me not believe, not even if God killed me. I hope it never comes to that, but I hope I'm ready if I need to take that test.

You're getting to the core of the problem. Where does faith comes from? From God according to the Bible. Now if you then don't have faith, and you pray to this supposed God, and you still don't have faith. Who's fault is it?

 

I completely disagree with you. My life is very real. I have a real life with a real, responsible job, wiht a real, lovely family and we go to real sports games and have real friends - and my mind is not wasted. I'm actually a very intelligent person even though that is hard for you to imagine. I even support banned book week this week (I bet you didn't even know that, did you!!). I haven't missed out on anything.

Intelligence has nothing to do with "banned book week". But you get an "A" for effort.

 

What if you're wrong???

What if you're wrong???

 

What if the true God is Allah?

 

What if the true faith is Judaism?

 

What if the real God is Ahura Mazda, and you should read the Avesta to get the truth about faith?

 

What if there is a God that has nothing to do with Christianity or religion, and he only wants you to be a human, and he'll take care of you when you die. And if we all go there, and there's no Hell.

 

What if there is parallel universes and we're a multidimensional spirit and will traverse to these dimension for infinite time, and maybe you and I will meet in a distant universe and laugh at all the silly things we believed and was controlling our lives.

 

What if Christianity is one of the religions that cause disharmony and problems in our country, and maybe the false ideas about the human mind which is taught by Christianity is the reason why people crack under pressure and become serial killers and child molesters?

 

What if we could have peace, in this only life we do know of for sure, if we just stopped fighting over which fantasy should control politics and dictate everyone else's life?

 

What if your religion is causing more harm to us all, while being a false religion, and take away freedom and free will of millions of people? Have we lost something if that's the case? Yeah, you bet.

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Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

Sonya, suppose we break this down, okay?

 

Can we both agree that, by definition, "things hoped for" do not exist, else they would be things already extant?

 

And can we agree that "substance" (tangible stuff) has a definition linked to existence, or that which actually is, and is therefore demonstrable -- so that "hope" plays no role in substance being substance?

 

Do we both understand, therefore, that "evidence," like "substance," is completely meaningless if it is unlinked from that which can be demonstrated and is, instead, artificially welded onto the non-existent and undemonstrable: "things hoped for" and "things not seen"?

 

Shall we now conclude that the sentence in quotes is a cute but spurious bit of nonsense, cleverly making use of trustworthy concrete terms to espouse the un-graspable in order to make believers think their fantasy is scientifically lodged in reality? Isn't it almost as well-written as one of the illogically entertaining lines from "Through the Looking Glass?"

 

Could it be just another trick of the trade, Sonya -- a feel-good bit of biblical advertising copy, penned by some probably underpaid scribe, to keep the sheep nodding in amazement at how reasonable it is to forfeit their reason (along with their tithe)?

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Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

Sonya, suppose we break this down, okay?

 

Can we both agree that, by definition, "things hoped for" do not exist, else they would be things already extant?

 

And can we agree that "substance" (tangible stuff) has a definition linked to existence, or that which actually is, and is therefore demonstrable -- so that "hope" plays no role in substance being substance?

 

Do we both understand, therefore, that "evidence," like "substance," is completely meaningless if it is unlinked from that which can be demonstrated and is, instead, artificially welded onto the non-existent and undemonstrable: "things hoped for" and "things not seen"?

 

Shall we now conclude that the sentence in quotes is a cute but spurious bit of nonsense, cleverly making use of trustworthy concrete terms to espouse the un-graspable in order to make believers think their fantasy is scientifically lodged in reality? Isn't it almost as well-written as one of the illogically entertaining lines from "Through the Looking Glass?"

 

Could it be just another trick of the trade, Sonya -- a feel-good bit of biblical advertising copy, penned by some probably underpaid scribe, to keep the sheep nodding in amazement at how reasonable it is to forfeit their reason (along with their tithe)?

This often-quoted verse really does say it all. I like to paraphrase it like this....

 

Faith means continuing to believe in what I want to be true when I have no evidence to support my beliefs.

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Okay, so, do each of you actually expect me to say Oh well, you got to me, I quit, you were right, I was wrong. Sure, "as if" okay?

 

Why is it important to you to recruit others into your anti-God club? And don't you dare tell me you aren't anti-God and that you are just neutral on the subject because that's not at all true. You are putting a lot of effort into fighting God and His people. If you aren't for God, you are against Him. So, you were Christians and now you work for Satan. If you really are/were Christians, you are going to have a LOT of explaining to do someday.

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Okay, so, do each of you actually expect me to say Oh well, you got to me, I quit, you were right, I was wrong. Sure, "as if" okay?

 

Why is it important to you to recruit others into your anti-God club? And don't you dare tell me you aren't anti-God and that you are just neutral on the subject because that's not at all true. You are putting a lot of effort into fighting God and His people. If you aren't for God, you are against Him. So, you were Christians and now you work for Satan. If you really are/were Christians, you are going to have a LOT of explaining to do someday.

Sonya,

 

It's important to us that people know the truth. We believe the truth is that there is no god (and no satan either for that matter).

 

I don't really know you, so it's not my business or concern if you want to believe in something for which there is no evidence. That's your right and privilege. HOWEVER, many christians don't stop with personal faith. They attempt to force non-christians to adhere to christian beliefs such as denying homosexuals the right to marry, or printing "In God We Trust" on the money or giving tax dollars to faith-based organizations that are allowed to discriminate based on religious beliefs, or attempting to force schools to teach fairy tales as science, and so on.

 

If christianity were harmless we wouldn't be so concerned. However, throughout its history christianity has proven that it can be not only harmful but fatal to non-believers. We fight because our lives and freedoms are at risk due to the actions of believers, not because we hate an imaginary being.

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TF is absolutely on target, Sonya. Freethinkers of all stripes, as we have in these forums, have much to lose at the hands of Christians who are convinced that we need to have their doctrines enforced on us. Maybe you're not a Christian who would do that, and if so, good for you.

 

But this discussion isn't about recruitment. Sure, I'm glad when anybody opts for the rational over the wishful, but I really want to understand why any person would prefer to live in a made-up reality rather than to live in the actual quite-beautiful-enough reality... and what niggling thought, in a moment of total self-honesty, enters that particular person's mind which might cause them to wonder if their house of worship might really be a house of cards. Because I had such moments, particular to me. What's yours?

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Why is it important to you to recruit others into your anti-God club?

We don't recruit. *You* came here. And, after your latest diatribe, IMO you deserve no more courtesy than a door-to-door solicitor who barged in and tracked mud across the living room carpet.

 

And don't you dare tell me you aren't anti-God and that you are just neutral on the subject because that's not at all true. You are putting a lot of effort into fighting God and His people.

If the Bible accurately describes your god, you're worshipping the greatest asshole in the known universe. I consider it extremely unlikely that the Bible accurately describes any gods at all, and am of the opinion that your god exists only in the minds of believers. Accordingly, there is nothing really there to "fight".

 

However, Christianity is definitely a reality in this world. It has done untold harm to this planet, and I would be simply delighted to see it reduced to a footnote in a book of mythology. In the meantime, it poses a clear and present danger to the rights of non-believers and I fight it whenever possible. Remember the Canadian same-sex marriage debate? I was on the winning side of that particular battle. :D

 

If you aren't for God, you are against Him. So, you were Christians and now you work for Satan.

Nope, don't believe in that guy either. Even though he's much more plausible and consistent than Yahweh, he's still a storybook character.

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white_raven 23:

But I digress slightly....you mention "real" friends. How much adversity have you faced with these "friends" standing by? Have these friends ever turned their backs on (and have you as well) former friends who left the church, or were supportive of their own gay children? Can you discuss anything with these "friends" without the slightest worry about how they might view you after the conversation? How do you define a real friend?

 

Well, my friends are human beings, just like me. So we make mistakes all the time. I could fill volumes with stories of my friends and the experiences I have had with them - good and bad. My very best friend in the whole world used to be very faithful in church but now never attends because her husband and she just got out of the habit of going and so they don't go. They work hours every week at their jobs and Sunday they stay home. That's their business and I miss her being at church but that doesn't change our friendship. I haven't had a friend who has had a gay child, but my mother's twin sister's son (my cousin) was gay and she was supportive of him as was I. I've helped friends through marital struggles (some were resolved, some cold not be), one dear friend through prescription drug addiction, I could keep going, and I haven't started talking about what my friends have helped me through. How do I define a friend? I have several different types of friends - some who I just know casually, some I know through work or church but aren't close with, and some who are people I could share anything with and trust them. And then I have two or three what I jokingly call "dead body buddies" which means if I killed someone they would come help me bury the body without asking any questions. Is this what you are asking?

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