What Would Make You A Non-believer?

[white_raven23]

Good question: what would make me an unbeliever ? If somehow some one could prove Christ DIED and was not resurrected...then I would be an unbeliever....I dont know how that could ever be proven...but if it was ...then there goes up in smoke what CHRISTIANITY IS FOR ME>..that CHrist was God in human form and died and was resurrrected for me......Others who believe Christ was just a good man would probably continue to believe ..

 

 

That's it? That's all it would take? Proof that Jesus (if he even existed) was not godman? How about all the stories of godmen that were arount pre "christ"? Why is the Jesus as son-o-god story more convincing to you as opposed to the story of Hercules? Or Osiris? Or Mithras?

 

I wonder how much of your trust in the stories in the bible have to do with the "packaging" (let alone the support of the cultural majority, let's start at absolute basics). Seriously. Get your favorite Bible. Look at it. That leather cover.....the gold edged thin delicate pages....nice. Maybe yours has the words of jesus in red to stand out from the rest of the black text. Pretty snazzy. Also damn good marketing. Those "other" stories are outside of this pretty package....so they must be the myths, as opposed to the "truth" in your hands right? And while it's true they do make more "basic" bibles on regular paper, with the standard heavy cardboard cover.....think of your early childhood image of the bible. The one that first grabbed your attention. Those gold edged pages are nice aren't they?

 

Consider the psychological impact of just how a bible looks.

[Amanda]

So I guess you don't believe in the finding of Jesus tomb and his bones? You heard about that right? Here's a link: the link.

 

Well, I don't think either it was Jesus bones or ossuary, but it's quite interesting to ask yourself, how would you know if it was or wasn't?

 

HanSolo, I'm surprised the link you sited didn't include the statistical significance of the collection of names associated with this tomb. You are usually very objective and inclusive with your presentation of the facts. However, even if it is the tomb of Jesus, 'both sides' will try to refute it. The secular side that wants to maintain there is no evidence that Jesus even existed, and the Christian's side that wants to maintain he rose physically. So what are the odds this could have a decent chance of being validated?

[Ouroboros]

So I guess you don't believe in the finding of Jesus tomb and his bones? You heard about that right? Here's a link: the link.

 

Well, I don't think either it was Jesus bones or ossuary, but it's quite interesting to ask yourself, how would you know if it was or wasn't?

 

HanSolo, I'm surprised the link you sited didn't include the statistical significance of the collection of names associated with this tomb. You are usually very objective and inclusive with your presentation of the facts. However, even if it is the tomb of Jesus, 'both sides' will try to refute it. The secular side that wants to maintain there is no evidence that Jesus even existed, and the Christian's side that wants to maintain he rose physically. So what are the odds this could have a decent chance of being validated?

Nah, I wasn't trying to prove the tomb being real or not, the question is rather: if this was the tomb of Jesus and Jesus was dead, would a Christian believe it? My opinion is that a Christian would not. Even if the tomb was real and we were proven wrong that Jesus never existed, but the Christians were proven wrong that he's alive, we would end up with atheists admitting that Jesus did in fact exist but is dead, and Christian's that would dance of joy that Jesus did exist, but they would refuse to believe that he is still dead. I think there are no factual evidence that can convince a Christian to un-belief. They believe without evidence, but they also believe in spite of evidence. We see that with science for instance. So what I wanted was that the poster think about that view and hopefully realize that he/she is not honest in her/his belief. Belief is okay to me, but when belief is intentionally held and argued against reality, that's when we start on the path to fundamentalism and the dangerous kinds of believers. Honesty has to start on a personal level. To be honest to others, you have to be honest to yourself first. (Which has other implications with it, like if someone is lying to themselves, they are likely to be lying to people around them.)

[Taphophilia]

Good question: what would make me an unbeliever ? If somehow some one could prove Christ DIED and was not resurrected...then I would be an unbeliever....I dont know how that could ever be proven...but if it was ...then there goes up in smoke what CHRISTIANITY IS FOR ME>..that CHrist was God in human form and died and was resurrrected for me......Others who believe Christ was just a good man would probably continue to believe ..

 

 

How can you prove someone died, when it's questionable, at best, if they even existed in the first place? Here in lies the problem. Christians believe he lived, was God incarnate, and rose from the dead on the third day (even though Friday night to Sunday morning isn't technically three days). Even if there was concrete proof Jesus even existed and died, Christians would believe it's a hoax perpetuated by Satan to turn people away from Christianity. Facts simply don't matter.

[Taphophilia]

To all of you who keep answering all my wifes questions and statements;

 

here is the bottom line I do not care what you have to say, I do not care how loud you say it and much you push it on her and other people. If you do not put your trust and faith in Jesus you WILL DIE AND GO TO HELL. Now if that is what you want then do it but i not trust now and getg it overwith. These web sites are set up so people who do not beleive in God and His Son to make themselves feel better about NOT BEING SAVED AND ON THEIR WAY TO HEAVEN. You fight and gripe and talk tell you blue int he face about something you do not even understand and all that talking will do nothing but send you to HELL. So this is the last thing you will see from her because I don't fight or talk over things like this becasue I don't have to it was settled a long time ago BELIEVE IT OR NOT!!!

 

I missed this little tidbit.

 

Translation:

 

Pweeze stop putting ideas in ta da wives head. She is ta smarter den me all reddy.

 

I only hope she sneaks back on and reads the thread of what was said after his post.

 

Sonya,

 

You are a wonderful, intelligent woman. Don't let ANYONE ever convince you otherwise!

 

Taph

[dibby]

If somehow some one could prove Christ DIED and was not resurrected...then I would be an unbeliever....

 

But why believe it because its written on a piece of parchment?

 

Did you become a christian through researching history, or because of an experience you had?

[Ouroboros]

It's interesting that Sonya's husband do recognize that his wife has questions. And he should ask himself "why?" Doesn't religion give her the answers she needs? Obviously not.

 

Dibby, very good point. She believes because someone wrote it on a paper 2000 years ago, and to un-believe she needs hard-core proof. Very unbalanced.

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

This appearance by the husband, and all it suggests, just breaks the pieces of my already broken heart.

Too true Pitchu. It never ceases to amaze me how the dark side of christianity always finds its way out. In this case, the putrid hate and always-present women devaluation has shown through in Sonya's husband. Sonya, this is one of the side effects of teaching people that they are so evil they deserve to spend eternity in hell. Your husband has internalized this message and it has become a self-fullfilling prophesy. I hope he doesn't talk to you and your children in the same way he unloaded on us.

 

I know that people often react violently when their belief system is threatened, but that sure was a doozie from Mr. Sonya.

 

Mr. Sonya, your actions are those of a scared child. Perhaps some day you will come to your senses and realize that we are not the villains. We have sincerely looked at the matter and honestly believe the christian god is not real. We believe that it will help people to shine the light of reason on their beliefs. Therefore, we participate on this site to attempt to help those WHO COME TO US like your wife did. Shame on you for your nasty performance. You owe us an apology.

[Guest BelieverZ06]

Yes, I have read and seen the news about finding the tomb......I guess my belief was pretty strong...because initially I assumed that further research would just point to a family of that time with similar names.......statistics on the odds of all those biblical names being found ....i have read what those odds were........but i have seen many other statistics quoted by creationist about the odds of "X" happening....and no one finds the presence of high odds as PROOF of anything...........................and as I said before, I dont know how, one could prove or disprove this finding.................so I agree with whomever said it would be hard for christians to believe what was found............How can one prove it was JESUS?

 

I for one, am glad, all this archelogical and various scholarlly research goes on.....I sure am not going to afraid of truth...as someone said the truth will set you free....THe key is will I RECOGNIZE the truth ???

 

To the one that asked...why do i believe in the bible....because it was written on parchment? No, i dont think i believe it just because i read it.....I dont think i believe because i had some religious experience....just the opposite....I have had bad things happen to me, my family(as I am sure many have had - christian or not............I have ample excuses to not believe because I have lost an innocent baby at birth; things in my childhood that I will not discuss here; mundance financial failures, etc.....but I still believe...but what the heck, I have been crazy in love with my girlfriend....so why not be crazy in love about something else.....Both crazies...probably dont make rational sense to others...but they seem to be good things in my life...

 

goodnite everyone, sleep tight, sweet dreams...its after midnite here in texas and i got get some shut own so i can watch my longhorns tomorrow.

[Ouroboros]

Yes, I have read and seen the news about finding the tomb......I guess my belief was pretty strong...because initially I assumed that further research would just point to a family of that time with similar names.......statistics on the odds of all those biblical names being found ....i have read what those odds were........but i have seen many other statistics quoted by creationist about the odds of "X" happening....and no one finds the presence of high odds as PROOF of anything...........................and as I said before, I dont know how, one could prove or disprove this finding.................so I agree with whomever said it would be hard for christians to believe what was found............How can one prove it was JESUS?

But you see how you defend your faith even in the light of something that you say would be evidence enough for you to stop believing. Wasn't it that if they found out that Jesus was dead, you would stop believe? My question is, how would you believe someone telling you that they have evidence that Jesus is dead? You wouldn't, is my answer. Even if someone showed you a box with bones in it, with the inscription on the box saying "Jesus Christ - Son of God - Dead", and it was proven the box was 2000 years old and the text was from that time too, you would say that someone made a hoax in the days of Jesus, and you probably would claim it was the enemies of the early Church. So you see, there's never enough evidence against faith. Faith overcomes reality. The danger is that you believe without evidence and against evidence, and you might be wrong and not know it, and you never will unless you start investigating your own mind and your own faith. Honesty starts with yourself.

 

I for one, am glad, all this archelogical and various scholarlly research goes on.....I sure am not going to afraid of truth...as someone said the truth will set you free....THe key is will I RECOGNIZE the truth ???

Exactly. How do you recognize it?

 

I have discovered, and so the others on this board, that truth does set you free, but it hurts and it is not pleasant, and you have to fight because the majority of people don't want to know the truth and they don't want you to have it either.

 

To the one that asked...why do i believe in the bible....because it was written on parchment? No, i dont think i believe it just because i read it.....I dont think i believe because i had some religious experience....just the opposite....I have had bad things happen to me, my family(as I am sure many have had - christian or not............I have ample excuses to not believe because I have lost an innocent baby at birth; things in my childhood that I will not discuss here; mundance financial failures, etc.....but I still believe...but what the heck, I have been crazy in love with my girlfriend....so why not be crazy in love about something else.....Both crazies...probably dont make rational sense to others...but they seem to be good things in my life...

I think the answer is in your comment about "love". Recently I came to the understanding that for some, maybe for many, religion is in an essence a love to an idea. It is an amazing idea that I could with a magic word get an eterenal life in a paradise. But it's an idea, and just because I love fantasy stories like Lord of the Rings, it doesn't make them true.

[Oldjew]

Sonya why don't you pray right now to God that I will be convinced he exists. If your god can make me believe in him in the next two hours I will announce it on this forum.

 

That ought to be child's play for God if he really exists.

 

And if you have enough faith as you claim you will have faith I will be convinced.

 

However if you have any doubts of your faith or in God of course you are not going to pray.

 

Then if if God can convince me he ought to be able to convince all other non-believers too without any difficulty.

[lemon]

Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him

 

That is similar to a battered woman remaining loyal to the man who beats her day in and day out. Personally, I will not trust a person who slays or harms me in any way. I'd have to say that the above is one of the bible verses that filled me with such angst. I'd like to ask you a few questions:

 

Who was actually slaying Job? God? Satan?

 

Does the verse appear to be of a man who is broken and traumatized (like psalm 137:9) or an attitude that God requires humans to have?

[lemon]

I have zero doubts and much evidence that He is real. If He isn't real - well, I haven't lost a thing. But I know He is.

 

Sonya, do you see what a contradiction that is? You have zero doubts and much evidence, but also mentioned "if he isn't real..." It can't be both. You are honest enough to admit that you can only hope that a major tragedy could not make you forget about God.

[lemon]

Sonya, I get what you're saying because it's so similar to how I felt and thought. I didn't believe because of evidence, or arguments, I believed because I believed. And over time things changed, and one day the belief was gone... it was years before I joined this site. Unfortunately there was only one thing I wanted God to do for me, to show me that he existed, and to give me faith again... I'm still waiting. He's quiet, so I can only deduce these alternative options: 1) he doesn't care, 2) or doesn't want me to believe, 2) or he doesn't exist. Which one do you think it is? What makes most sense when you lose your faith and can't believe anymore?

 

This might make you angry, but God laid this in my heart when I read this post. That about these options. (4) you are very depressed and need to see a counselor. You are looking for a 'feeling' of belief but are unable to have that emotion/feeling due the depression. (5) God is using this awful circumstance (which He did not cause) to grow you for something huge. But instead of growing you are pulling away. I dunno, just some thoughts. What do I know, right?

 

This is what puzzles me. Sonya, you made a statement doubting God's existence and now you say he put the above on your heart about someone else? I would think that God would help you to deal with the doubt you have before trying to fix someone else. I mean didn't Jesus teach about casting the beam out of your own eye...? Let's just say that if there is a God, I hope that he helps me to fix my own faults before trying to fix others.

[Robbobrob]

I was watching a preacher on TV yesterday tell us that God pokes at us and our lives, destroying our finances and our lives until we turn around and walk towards him.

 

Why would I want such a destructive monster in my life? I would be depressed everyday if I had to live under such torment from a loving god. What a needy little freak it is. Who would want such a thing in their lives...real or not.

[Ouroboros]

I was watching a preacher on TV yesterday tell us that God pokes at us and our lives, destroying our finances and our lives until we turn around and walk towards him.

My life has been the opposite.

 

After I got married life only got harder, and things kept on happening, until the day I lost my faith, and now when I take charge and responsibility (instead of praying and believing in miracles), my life has improved radically over time. My life would fit better the scenario that the Devil was testing me until I lost my faith, and then he left me alone and God doesn't even try to get me back.

[Robbobrob]

Hans in league with Lucifer, he's the devil in him. LOL

 

Remember, if you are not a miserable sod, God does not love you. If you are a success on this Earth, then you must have the backing of Satan.

 

Which begs the question: Which side is a Mega-Church on?

[Ouroboros]

Hans in league with Lucifer, he's the devil in him. LOL

 

Remember, if you are not a miserable sod, God does not love you. If you are a success on this Earth, then you must have the backing of Satan.

If you are Christian and you're miserable: God is testing you.

If you are Christian and you're having a dream life: You have strong faith.

If you are a Non-Christian and you're miserable: God is pushing you to convert.

If you are a Non-Christian and having a dream-life: Satan is doing it.

 

There's always an explanation...

 

Which begs the question: Which side is a Mega-Church on?

Good question. Mega-Mammon?

[Abiyoyo]

As a follow up to the "Why do you remain a Christian?" thread, I'd like to ask another question of believers....

 

What, if anything, would it take to change your mind and make you a non-believer? I am hoping to get serious responses from people who have thought about why they believe what they believe, and who have considered what evidence, realizations, etc, would cause you to decide that the claims of Christianity are most likely false.

 

I have at times been accused here of 'cherry picking' what I want to hear or see in the Bible. I recognize very near to all of the situations in the Bible, yet still believe. All I used to be able to say in regard to my steadfast belief in Jesus, God of Israel was my experiences in life; in which for me, is already enough. Yet being apart of this site obviously to the open ear would ultimately bring one to a point where they must make many choices determining science, facts, history etc.

 

It really just boils down to what I want to believe. I want to believe that Jesus will give me life eternal. I want to believe that there is a God that knows how many hairs are on my head. I want to believe that faith could move mountains. I want to believe that their is a 'forgiving, loving, caring, father like god' that will be with me in every situation and hears my every thought. I want to believe that every action from God was justified, even if I am unable to justify it myself.

 

There is much in the Bible that portrays God more to my opinion of Zeus. Whatever the case my be, the God of Judaism, and later of Jesus Christ is the one I choose to believe.

 

But to more or less answer the Op's question. The history of Christianity in substance, the longevity of the root of Christianity in Judaism, and the current belief and testimony of myself along with the others that thank Jesus, God for bringing them out of drugs, crime, lovelessness, etc. It all comes down to one group for me. The abused. I don't care what facts, or evidences one has to disprove the Bible, God, Jesus. Someone that came out of abuse whether it was by means of physical spousal abuse, drug abuse, mental abuse, even religious abuse; these ones that wake up every day and 'choose' to not throw themselves off a bridge because God saved their life. These are the ones that make me 'know' that we don't just live today and die tomorrow. I focus on the writings of Christ alone as my guide to being the believer I want to be; reference the OT for structure or understanding; but more less consider it all a jumbled pile of writings of history of Jews up until the prophets, were I also focus on, though not as much. But lastly, and most criticized; is my own experiences that I have seen and heard with my own ears.

[R. S. Martin]

As a follow up to the "Why do you remain a Christian?" thread, I'd like to ask another question of believers....

 

What, if anything, would it take to change your mind and make you a non-believer? I am hoping to get serious responses from people who have thought about why they believe what they believe, and who have considered what evidence, realizations, etc, would cause you to decide that the claims of Christianity are most likely false.

 

I have at times been accused here of 'cherry picking' what I want to hear or see in the Bible. I recognize very near to all of the situations in the Bible, yet still believe. All I used to be able to say in regard to my steadfast belief in Jesus, God of Israel was my experiences in life; in which for me, is already enough. Yet being apart of this site obviously to the open ear would ultimately bring one to a point where they must make many choices determining science, facts, history etc.

 

It really just boils down to what I want to believe. I want to believe that Jesus will give me life eternal. I want to believe that there is a God that knows how many hairs are on my head. I want to believe that faith could move mountains. I want to believe that their is a 'forgiving, loving, caring, father like god' that will be with me in every situation and hears my every thought. I want to believe that every action from God was justified, even if I am unable to justify it myself.

 

There is much in the Bible that portrays God more to my opinion of Zeus. Whatever the case my be, the God of Judaism, and later of Jesus Christ is the one I choose to believe.

 

But to more or less answer the Op's question. The history of Christianity in substance, the longevity of the root of Christianity in Judaism, and the current belief and testimony of myself along with the others that thank Jesus, God for bringing them out of drugs, crime, lovelessness, etc. It all comes down to one group for me. The abused. I don't care what facts, or evidences one has to disprove the Bible, God, Jesus. Someone that came out of abuse whether it was by means of physical spousal abuse, drug abuse, mental abuse, even religious abuse; these ones that wake up every day and 'choose' to not throw themselves off a bridge because God saved their life. These are the ones that make me 'know' that we don't just live today and die tomorrow. I focus on the writings of Christ alone as my guide to being the believer I want to be; reference the OT for structure or understanding; but more less consider it all a jumbled pile of writings of history of Jews up until the prophets, were I also focus on, though not as much. But lastly, and most criticized; is my own experiences that I have seen and heard with my own ears.

 

1. You did not answer the question at all re What would make you a non-believer? All you did was tell us why you are a believer. You don't tell us why you are a believer, other than that you choose to believe; you provide no reason for your choice.

 

2. A lover of truth, so far as I can acertain, cannot choose his or her beliefs. Such a person is obligated to sift through all the evidence and accept whatever evidence comes to the surface.

 

3. You can be all those good things without believing in God.

 

4. There are no "writings of Christ" that can possibly be your guide.

[florduh]

It really just boils down to what I want to believe. I want to believe that Jesus will give me life eternal. I want to believe that there is a God that knows how many hairs are on my head. I want to believe that faith could move mountains. I want to believe that their is a 'forgiving, loving, caring, father like god' that will be with me in every situation and hears my every thought. I want to believe that every action from God was justified, even if I am unable to justify it myself.

 

 

Yo, I admire you admitting that you have no reason to believe, but just want to anyway. That is the case for lots of Christians (and others) who have no evidence, or even proof to the contrary of their beliefs, yet will try to argue "logically" for their position. At least you have been honest in this respect.

 

I would like to believe a benevolent god is watching over us, but with all evidence to the contrary, I just can't.

 

- Chris