Thoughts On Truechristianity(tm)

[godlessgrrl]

One of our most recent fundy visitors posted this in another thread:

 

Secondly, it is an impossibility for a true, born-again believer in Christ to become an 'ex-Christian'.

 

These are some random thoughts I had recently, about the topic.

 

I am an ex-Christian.

 

There was a time in my life when I believed in Bible truth, had great faith in God, believed that Jesus Christ was my Lord and Savior, and did my best to do as Jesus instructed in Matthew 22:37: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." I took the Nicene Creed as a starting point for my statement of faith, and took the Bible as God's inspired Word, and my guide for living. For awhile I was a Biblical literalist, later I accepted some portions of it as metaphor or allegory. I was baptised, studied and read the Bible, prayed, and devoutly attended church services, first with my family, then with my Born-Again Christian husband. I tried to convert my friends, because I felt I'd found the greatest thing in the world, and wanted to share it with them. As far as I or anybody knew at the time, my belief was sincere and in earnest, and I was like countless other devout, Bible-believing, Born-Again Christians all over the world.

 

But did I ever really know god?

 

I consider the question in light of a common accusation which current Christians love to hurl at former Christians, especially when they've painted themselves into an apologetic corner (or just don't want to deal with an argument they know they'll lose in the first place): You were never a true Christian to begin with.

 

Their reasoning, bolstered by Bible verses such as Matthew 7:15-23 or the Parable of the Sower in Mark 4, is that a genuine Christian would never leave the faith. Thus, my apostasy stands as evidence that I was never a Real Christian™ in the first place. To a current Christian, it does not matter what I once believed, how sincerely I believed, how much faith I had, or whether or not I acted in accordance with my belief: the Bible trumps reality. I was either lying, pretending, misled, deceiving myself, or never really had a relationship with Jesus Christ at all. In other words, I never really knew God, because if I had, I wouldn't have stopped believing in him.

 

The assertion is, of course, a No True Scotsman fallacy, but that doesn't prevent anyone from utilizing it anyway. No one but myself (and god, if there is indeed a god) knows for sure whether or not my Christian faith was genuine, and it's starkly arrogant of anybody to claim otherwise.

 

The accusation brings up some interesting implications beyond that, however.

 

Probe a little bit further, and sometimes a Christian will expand upon their assertion. Sometimes they'll offer the above Bible verses to demonstrate their point, or offer the explanation that I must not have really known Jesus, because it isn't possible to truly know Jesus and then later stop believing. In other words, given that Christians believe that Jesus is god in human form (one third of the Trinity, for Trinitarians), if I had really known god, I never would've left Christianity. If I had known god, I would've remained a Christian - a True Christian, but a Christian nonetheless.

 

I'd like to know how it follows that if I'd known god, I would've ended up Christian, as opposed to any other faith. Is god Christian?

 

Christians are probably right that I've never known god. What they fail to realize is that they likely never have, either - and so they aren't any more "True" than I ever was, simply by virtue of the fact that nobody really knows whether god exists for sure. There isn't any way to know, in the same way that we know that the sun rises every morning, or that an object dropped will tend to fall, or that our aunt's name is Mary. "Knowledge" of god is subjective, not objective, and hence unreliable, unfalsifiable, and untestable.

 

To assume or imply that one would automatically end up Christian if they knew god is also starkly arrogant. If I had ever known god, I would only know god, no more or less than that. Who is to say that the Christians have it right, and I would end up a Christian? Why not a Muslim, or a pagan, or a Sikh? Why would knowledge of god entail my joining any faith system in existence thus far on this planet?

 

Something else which Christians fail to realize is that one does not need to know god in order to be a member of any particular faith or religion. If no one has ever known god, yet there are countless millions of Christians around the world, then it is indeed possible to be a Christian without actually knowing god. Countless people certainly believe that they know god, act as if he is real, live their lives as if their faith reflects reality - but if no one has ever demonstrated that god is in fact objectively real, then any claims by theists that they "know" god are wishful thinking at best.

 

So I take no umbrage if someone tells me that I never knew god: I probably never did. Probably no one ever has. But the claim that I was never actually a Christian is utter arrogant bullshit.

[R. S. Martin]

They HAVE to call atheists arrogant. How else would they know that they are better? And it is absolutely imperative that they are better. They have to somehow justify the sacrifices they make for their religion.

 

I don't think I ever thought I was better than anyone when I was a Christian nor did I think atheists were arrogant. The stereotypes couldn't help but rub off on me and I observed with wide eyes of disbelief the first unbeliever I got to know. He was a prof and one of the most normal people I had ever met. He went so far as to be moral and make a self-sacrifice for a cause he believed in. That clinched the matter for me; no matter what the church said, it was wrong. Unbelievers were NOT evil.

 

Another professor I had told the class she was atheist. She came from an Orthodox Jewish background, which is in many ways very similar to my own background so she helped me work through some issues religious people could not see. Religious people cannot afford to be totally honest about religion. And I needed honest answers even while I still identified as Christian. Both these professors taught in religious studies.

[R. S. Martin]

Gwen, it depends on how people interpret the Bible as to whether or not it is possible for as true Christian to fall away. There is a verse somewhere that says if a person ever tasted what it is like to part take of the kingdom of heaven (or something to that effect) and fall away, there is no room for repentance for such a person. Some Christians understand that to mean that it is quite possible for a person to be a real true believer Christian and to fall away. But there is no hope for such a person. They have committed the unforgivable sin. They have blasphemed the Holy Spirit. "It would be better for that person not to have been born."

 

Possibly, that is simply too horrible a thing for most Christians to deal with so they choose one of two alternatives: 1) if you are not a Christian you never were a true Christian; that way there is still hope of converting you. 2) if you are not living like a Christian we must take extreme measures to bring you back into the fold lest you fall completely away and commit the unforgivable sin and be doomed forever.

 

I don't know if that is the case and I seriously doubt that we will ever get any real answers from Christians themselves. It's just some thoughts for what they're worth. I've been talking with my prof about some of these things. When I mentioned that people on here from OSAS churches have this problem that you mention he knew immediately what you were talking about. It's just the way Calvinists think. Doesn't take away the pain of having one's experience discounted and one's word disbelieved.

[Mythra]

So, none of us were True Christians. I wonder why that was?

 

Was it that we just didn't try hard enough, or were we trying to enter into a club with restricted membership? Kind of like a black guy who tries to join the KKK?

 

Yet, when a True christian comes in here to Ex-C, he seems to spout all the same stuff, do all the same stuff that we did. It's not Religion, it's a Relationship.

 

What nonsense. Every christian thinks themselves to be a member of the TRUE christian club. The exclusive club that's approved by the ALMIGHTY.

 

The Lutherans look down on the Pentecostals. The Charismatics look down on the Baptists. The Catholics look down on the Presbyterians. The Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Seventh Day Adventists look down on all the rest.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there are no true christians.

 

Well, maybe it's not such a limb after all.

[R. S. Martin]

So, none of us were True Christians. I wonder why that was?

 

Was it that we just didn't try hard enough, or were we trying to enter into a club with restricted membership? Kind of like a black guy who tries to join the KKK?

 

That's the extreme frustration of it all. They keep blaming US because, well, it can't possibly be THEM!!!!! It just can't!!!!! Anyone knows that!!!!!

 

As though that were good enough.

 

Yet, when a True christian comes in here to Ex-C, he seems to spout all the same stuff, do all the same stuff that we did. It's not Religion, it's a Relationship.

 

What nonsense.

 

It is nonsense. If it weren't they could come up with something more logical. (Let's hope I can think of that next time I'm the recipient of such bullcrap. Yes, I know I will be able to think of it but my heart will hurt all the same so we comfort each other as the need arises.)

 

Every christian thinks themselves to be a member of the TRUE christian club. The exclusive club that's approved by the ALMIGHTY.

 

The Lutherans look down on the Pentecostals. The Charismatics look down on the Baptists. The Catholics look down on the Presbyterians. The Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Seventh Day Adventists look down on all the rest.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there are no true christians.

 

Well, maybe it's not such a limb after all.

 

It's been said on here before. I wouldn't know any other place it's been said. Might not be safe to say anywhere else.

[ShackledNoMore]

Some Christians understand that to mean that it is quite possible for a person to be a real true believer Christian and to fall away. But there is no hope for such a person. They have committed the unforgivable sin. They have blasphemed the Holy Spirit. "It would be better for that person not to have been born."

I was such a christian. That's why deconversion was so hard for me, why it took so long, why my steps toward apostasy were so tiny and so tentative.

 

That was a long time ago, and there has been many years now for xians to "work on me," to try to "bring me back into the fold."

 

The astonishing thing is that I have never ONCE had a xian take the position that my fate in hell is a done deal, no matter WHAT I do from now on. I've even confronted one or two of them directly on the question, after they agreed that rejecting god after being an xian is one of the few ways you can lose your salvation and ensure your spot in hell. You should see that backpeddling they did!

 

This also includes the same sorts of people, or the VERY same people who trumpeted that doctrine with so much fanfare when I was an xian--my mother comes to mind. So strong was her belief in this doctrine, and so clear cut did it ultimately become that I had once been a xian and no longer was, that it was like the twilight zone seeing her try to bring me back into the fold.

 

On top of that, I don't know about anybody else, but I personally don't remember even ONE single instance of an xian coming to ex-christian.net with the claim that we were all already doomed to hell as a done deal. Oh, there have been many out to reconvert us. Granted, some of them may feel they'd be wasting their time with us if they truly believed we are all already doomed to hell, but one might think that one or two of them might believe they were helping someone who was just starting to question keep from lapsing into eternal damnation if they called this out here.

 

Perhaps this belief is less common that I thought, or perhaps not. It does exist to a greater or lesser degree, and to the degree it exists, it's just another area where xians have to do mental gymnastics to reconcile your own conflicting beliefs and attempt to make things palatable.

 

The OSAS crowd have two choices: you're backsliding, but you're still going to heaven or you were never a "True Christian" in the first place. The "you can lose your salvation" crowd can STILL play the "True Christian" card, and it seems like they almost always do. The OSAS people see thoughtful, self assured ex-christians like us, and the backsliding argument doesn't seem enough. I think that almost all of the ex-christians that hang out here, myself included, have made it crystal clear that we are NOT xians. For the "lose your salvation" bunch, on the other hand, it is awfully unpalatable to be faced with a real, flesh and blood human being who is clearly not a monster and have to think that s/he is condemned to an eternity of torture in a lake of fire, just because s/he doubted. Viola, the never a "True Christian" argument to the rescue. No wonder it's so common.

[OnceConvinced]

I think one of the best defences against that absurd claim that no Christian would ever leave the faith is Paul's letters. Who makes quite a big deal about the possibility of people falling from the faith.

 

Two of the best ones:

 

This one is aimed at people who believe they are strong in the faith:

 

"Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore, let him who thinks he stands, take heed lest he fall." I Corinthians 10:11-12

 

This is the best one. Even Paul admits that he could fall from the faith!

 

"But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified." 1 Corinthians 9:27

[Japedo]

One of our most recent fundy visitors posted this in another thread:

 

Secondly, it is an impossibility for a true, born-again believer in Christ to become an 'ex-Christian'.

 

 

 

 

This is also a major thing that is near infuriating to me. I can only speak from experience of Fundy Christians. I can't speak for any other xtian sect.

 

When Fundy Christians have their 'alter calls', during a completely emotional high of a service. Everyone bows their heads. The pastor standing up on the alter getting the people all worked up into an emotional tizzy asks people to raise their hand if they want to know god. "All that is required' is to accept Christ as your personal savior. Invite him into your heart and life.. open the door and he'll make huge changes the promises are told. I have witnessed this first hand time and time and time again growing up.

 

People cry, they are emotional wrecks, begging for their pitiful lives to have meaning. Crying out to god in desperation for him to work a miracle in their life. I have been one of those people, even at the time of considering myself a born again. I begged for change in my life. Yes I was young, but the facts stand that I honestly and truthfully was without a doubt a born again Christian.

 

Many of us have gone thru much grief, turmoil, doubt, persecution , rejection and a host of other unpleasantnesses on our long hard road to finding God, answers and truth. On our honest quest to find the true ™ way. Everyone of us had everything to lose and risked it for truth and finding answers. We sought out a true ™ relationship with god, and wanted to do what was right and not what was popular. Everyone of us did as we were instructed and sought out truth, ask and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find. We took those instructions to heart. I have contempt for anyone that so carelessly and without empathy minimizes the hardships any of us went thru. They judge us, and tell us we aren't real, we are helpers of the enemy and so forth. Anything that makes them more comfortable. Anything for them to convince themselves that god wouldn't ever abandon them.. It's bullshit, and it pushes a button in me every time it's said!

 

I always try to demand from these arrogant asses what is required to becoming a true ™ Christian outside of accepting him as your lord and savior? The side stepping tap dance they give is something amazing to watch. Meanwhile during the church service, they are praying for the lost soul who will be roped into their dogma. That person will be considered a true ™ Christian from that point forward until they start to ask honest questions, then all of a sudden there is some excuse given that they weren't all that honest in the first place.

[Ouroboros]

From the conversation with Sonya I have gained a new view of this topic. The phrase "once saved, always saved" can be interpreted in a different way. I can also mean that we all were Christians, and we were born again, and we still are, even though we don't believe anymore. And I find it quite funny, because it means I can turn ot any religion I want, and I can "sin" as much as I want and blaspheme the Holy Spirit, and I'm still going to Shang-ri-la, sorry I mean Heaven.

[Kenny]

I loved your post. It gave me a lot of answers to some of the things I've thought about myself and about how I could have once believed so strongly and then "fall away". What you said made a lot of sense and opened my eyes to many things. The most important was the fact that, even though I'd have bet everything that I had a personal relationship with a spiritual savior, looking back I can see than no matter how hard I tried, I just could never make a connection... especially through prayer. No matter how hard I tried.

 

Your post brought much freedom for me. Thank you!

[MonolithTMA]

No one but myself (and god, if there is indeed a god) knows for sure whether or not my Christian faith was genuine, and it's starkly arrogant of anybody to claim otherwise.

 

 

On my days when I feel like I believe in God I feel that this creator entity must be much bigger than any concept we could have of him. Surely God could reach out to someone in any faith or non-faith. Surely people aren't damned for having never read or even heard of the bible. In all my days the one thing that has made me question my faith the most has been other Christians.

 

I would think the judgment the people referenced in your quote above make, would imperil their salvation more than yours. Judge not, lest ye be judged and all that.

[SWIM]

Didn't you know that if you are not a member of the westboro baptist church your not a real christian? They said so on 20/20...

 

Silly people... LOL

[Neon Genesis]

Something else which Christians fail to realize is that one does not need to know god in order to be a member of any particular faith or religion. If no one has ever known god, yet there are countless millions of Christians around the world, then it is indeed possible to be a Christian without actually knowing god.

What annoys me about this is that Christians will say we were never "true" Christians because we didn't "know God" but then when you ask them questions they don't know the answer to, they always respond with "we cannot comprehend the mind of God" or something like that. But if you have to "know God" to be a "true" Christian, but it's impossible to "comprehend" the mind of God because his ways are not our ways or whatever, then how can any Christian "know God" to be a "true" Christian if no one can know the mind of God?

[godlessgrrl]

Wow - I haven't visited this thread for awhile... lots of replies. Thanks!

 

Sometimes I wonder if a lot of this whole TrueChristian™ stuff has arisen because Christians have had a hard time trying to figure out who's in the club and who isn't. What does the label "Christian" really mean?

 

Does it describe belief? Action? Both? Neither? Does it describe someone who sincerely believes in and follows the teachings of Christ? Does it describe someone who believes the stuff in the Nicene Creed? I suppose there's got to be some definition, because if the qualities of a Christian were too broad and too vague the term would ultimately be meaningless. But it often seems to me that sometimes the term means "Someone who follows Christ" and sometimes it means "Someone who believes and does the things my church says to do".

 

On the subject of apostasy and salvation, there are verses supporting both positions: the idea that salvation can be lost, and the idea that it cannot be lost. The weird thing is that none of them really say that if someone falls away they were never really a believer in the first place. Even the verses I linked in the OP are open to some interpretation. The bit from Matthew comes closest, in suggesting that it's possible to act like a TrueChristian™ but be denied heaven.

 

I suppose what bugs me about the "you weren't a TrueChristian™" crap, too, is that buried within the statement (and within the verses used to back it up) is the implication that former believers were never sincere. That maybe we were pretending or playacting, or had some ulterior motive for believing. That we were liars.

 

It's the religious version of the Microsoft School of Tech Support: When in doubt, blame the end user.

 

When someone falls away, blame them. When someone doubts, blame them. When someone loses faith, blame them. When someone isn't Christian enough, blame them. When the Bible isn't clear, blame its readers. When people leave your church, it's their fault. Just never, ever blame the all-powerful, all-knowing deity who's responsible for the whole mess in the first place, whatever you do.

 

I tend to be with the folks who hold to Wesley's idea that you can indeed become an apostate. After all, here I am: once a believer, now an atheist. But being an atheist adds a whole new twist to the issue: since I no longer believe god exists, I no longer believe that god's existence is relevant to Christianity. (Belief in god's existence is, but that's another matter.) When I believed, I was just as Christian as it's possible for anyone to be. Actual existence of god makes no difference.

 

Really, though, I think the "you're not a TrueChristian™" thing just boils down to a form of tribalism. It's like circling the wagons, making sure you know who's in the club and who's out, so you can justify rejecting outsiders instead of treating them like actual human beings.

 

Plus I think that it helps distance TrueBelieverst™ from something they fear: apostasy. I mean if you think you're going to end up in hell if you stop believing, doubt is a terrifying thing. Encounter someone who gave up the faith and is a better person for it, and it's probably a lot safer emotionally to just pretend that they don't really exist - claim that they were never really a TrueChristian™ like you, because they doubted and you never would.

 

Anyway. Some rambles, revisiting an oldish thread. Thanks for responses again, y'all.