Christians, if Jesus is also the Jewish Messiah….

[scotter]

First, a common assumption statement: in this forum you will find debates about if even Jesus the person existed. This thread assumes the historical and theological positions of Gospels in the Christian eyes.

 

This question is a bit of imagination and a bit of debate….

 

The evangelical theology is that Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah, and he was sent to death by crucifixion. (I know this is not Catholic theology. The revised Catholic theology is like ‘leave the Jews alone’. Jews’ Covenant with God is still valid. Jews don’t need Jesus.)

See also Romans Ch. 10, Israel rejected the Messiah, Ch. 11, grafting the grapes.

 

Okay, rewind the tape and imagine this situation, the center point of debate:

Say, Jesus started his mission at 30 years old, and voila! Jews who saw his miracles, listened to his teachings, the Sanhedrin authority, Pharisees, Seducees, Zealots, Essences, EVERY single Jew, unconditionally and doubtlessly knelt and praised, “Hallelujah, our Messiah Jesus!” And Jesus’s fame spread like fire to Roma, Alexandria, the Roman Provinces…..Say, EVERY single Jew in the Roman Empire only heard about his name and his miracles, not even seeing in person, and they knelt down at home unconditionally, “Jesus the Messiah!”

 

And Jesus would have lived a normal life of longevity – 70 years old? And say he died of a natural cause and returned to his Father God.

(Remark: life in Palestine at Herod Antipas’s time was hard. A Jewish peasant lived a short life, an elite lived up to 60-70 years old. Let’s make it in this scenario Jesus lived to 70 years old.)

 

In this scenario, what did Jesus, as the JEWISH Messiah, do for the Jews everyday, Sunday to Sunday, in the next 40 years?

 

Put the debate question short, if it makes it easier for us to understand, what was God’s/Jesus’s agenda in being the Jewish Messiah when he was coming to the Jews at that place at that time, before the Jews, as described in the Gospels, rejected him? What was his supposed role as Messiah for the Jews?

 

Additional side question is: Refer to the rewind point, it was unfair to the Jews living in Rome, Alexandria, Turkey area and other Roman provinces who had not even heard of Jesus, if evangelical theology just generally states that Jews (at that time) rejected Jesus as Messiah.

 

p.s. I have thought of another space-time continuum alternative: if Jesus were immediately accepted as the Jewish Messiah for all Jews, his immense popularity would have had him regarded as a stability problem to the Roman Empire, he still would have been arrested by Herod/Pilate and received THE penalty.

 

Even for this scenario: what was Jesus’s role as the JEWISH Messiah in the several years of missionary to the Jews then?

[scotter]

From the experience of the ‘Isaiah 53’ thread two weeks ago, I thought I would give it more time for the Christian responses.

 

I presume to constitute that there is this problem with evangelical NT theology until the good answer comes.

 

The reason I think of writing this thread is, basically the evangelicals go, “Jew rejected Jesus as the Messiah, and we Christianity becomes the new Israel…...” So on, so on.

 

One time I asked a Christian what was Jesus supposed to do if Jews had accepted Jesus as Messiah then, he was quite unprepared psychologically and theologically, and could not answer

i.e. his indirect and unspoken answer was, “I don’t have a clue.”

 

My point is: evangelical Christians, if you say you believe Jesus is your Messiah, it is your religion.

 

But if you simply follow the textbook and like, “Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah….” and don’t have a clue what Jesus was supposed to do as Messiah for the Jews in Judea and the Roman Empire, it is depressing.

Then please just drop this thing “Jews rejected Jesus as….”

[dogmatically_challenged]

Bump.

[diggin]

First, a common assumption statement: in this forum you will find debates about if even Jesus the person existed. This thread assumes the historical and theological positions of Gospels in the Christian eyes.

 

This question is a bit of imagination and a bit of debate….

 

The evangelical theology is that Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah, and he was sent to death by crucifixion. (I know this is not Catholic theology. The revised Catholic theology is like ‘leave the Jews alone’. Jews’ Covenant with God is still valid. Jews don’t need Jesus.)

See also Romans Ch. 10, Israel rejected the Messiah, Ch. 11, grafting the grapes.

 

Okay, rewind the tape and imagine this situation, the center point of debate:

Say, Jesus started his mission at 30 years old, and voila! Jews who saw his miracles, listened to his teachings, the Sanhedrin authority, Pharisees, Seducees, Zealots, Essences, EVERY single Jew, unconditionally and doubtlessly knelt and praised, “Hallelujah, our Messiah Jesus!” And Jesus’s fame spread like fire to Roma, Alexandria, the Roman Provinces…..Say, EVERY single Jew in the Roman Empire only heard about his name and his miracles, not even seeing in person, and they knelt down at home unconditionally, “Jesus the Messiah!”

 

And Jesus would have lived a normal life of longevity – 70 years old? And say he died of a natural cause and returned to his Father God.

(Remark: life in Palestine at Herod Antipas’s time was hard. A Jewish peasant lived a short life, an elite lived up to 60-70 years old. Let’s make it in this scenario Jesus lived to 70 years old.)

 

Great questions. Just stumbled onto them.

 

I think if Jesus had not died, he would not have been able to be the Jewish Messiah -- because the Jewish Messiah was to be the great savior of the world, coming in power to rule all people. So he would have been 2000 years too early, and he would not have already accomplished the legal part of his work.

 

In this scenario, what did Jesus, as the JEWISH Messiah, do for the Jews everyday, Sunday to Sunday, in the next 40 years?

 

If they saw him as the suffering servant (which would have been tough -- they were expecting a great military leader and deliverance from Roman domination)

then the part of God's plan that opened the door of opportunity to the Gentiles would have become unnecessary.

 

I'm afraid I'm sounding wierd... but then, you do seem to be up on the theory part of this...

 

I believe that everything that happens is OK because it happened and it must have been foreseen and allowed for if there's a real God we're dealing with. ....

 

So... if your scenario is what REALLY happened, then it would mean that God called the Jews to be his spiritual sons, and their accepting of Jesus as their leader would cause them to learn from him about how to live in an imperfect world, under the Romans, and love each other and their enemies. And after learning those lessons, they would become the spiritual or heavenly children of God .... no need to extend that invitation or call to the Gentiles.

 

BUT ....

 

what really happened is that the Jews saw this guy who seemed like an illegitimate child come and say implausible, hard to understand things. And he didn't smell like a Messiah because they all knew what Isaiah said (not in chapter 53 but elsewhere) and the Messiah judges the nations, delivers the Jews, regathers them to their land, etc. Jesus was no military leader, and at his hour of need all his friends foresook him. And instead of rallying to his aid his Father lets him be crucified and publicly humiliated. No wonder they saw him as a scandal, and the Greeks saw him as foolishness.

 

Put the debate question short, if it makes it easier for us to understand, what was God’s/Jesus’s agenda in being the Jewish Messiah when he was coming to the Jews at that place at that time, before the Jews, as described in the Gospels, rejected him? What was his supposed role as Messiah for the Jews?

 

That's a great question, too.

I think the agenda was to confront the Jewish people in a way that was honest and loving but also flinty and certain to provoke a response. The response they got was what they expected -- that Jesus would be loved by a few, ignored by most, and hated by a few from all the worlds that coexisted at that time... the Jewish, the Greek, the Roman. All the world systems found Jesus to be a threat to their very existence. So they killed him.

 

That was not actually Messiah work, though. What surprised the Jews was that their Messiah would look and sound like that --- and most of them rejected him because he didn't fulfill the clear statements of the prophets that Messiah would be a ruler and a fighter. But then, they weren't ready to be the kind of people God wanted the Messiah to rule over, either. Read Josephus' account of the Wars of the Jews, and you can see how the Jews disintegrated into rival rebel factions... all too proud to work together and submit to any kind of leadership. It took 2000 years of diaspora and evil persecution by "Christians" to forge the Jews into the mighty soldiers yet amazingly humble and patient, optimistic and fairminded people that we see today.

 

Additional side question is: Refer to the rewind point, it was unfair to the Jews living in Rome, Alexandria, Turkey area and other Roman provinces who had not even heard of Jesus, if evangelical theology just generally states that Jews (at that time) rejected Jesus as Messiah.

 

Wow. Another great question. I totally agree with your take on this. Evangelistic theology is unfair.

 

Here's what I think: God never punished the Jews for crucifying Jesus. Jesus was the sacrificial lamb, not the Jews. Read Hosea, and what the Jews lost their temple, priesthood, and nation for was their idolatry and stiff-neckedness and flirtation with the world system -- greek and Roman philosophy and ways of doing things. These actions caused them to endanger their very Jewish bloodline.

 

So God sent them to Babylon the 2nd time, only this Babylonish captivity was among the "Christians". And unlike the first Babylonish captivity, the Jews were mistreated and oppressed by the "Christians". This gave the "Christians" an exactly equal period of favor as the Jews had enjoyed. But when it was over, God was ready to bring the Jews back to his favor again, but the "Christians" -- Babylon -- were ready to get punished by God. (See Isaiah 47:6-9 and following)

 

That's why this is the post-Christian era. Because God is as angry with "Christianity" (mainstream Christianity and evangelicalism) as any of you folks at ex-xtian.net are.

 

p.s. I have thought of another space-time continuum alternative: if Jesus were immediately accepted as the Jewish Messiah for all Jews, his immense popularity would have had him regarded as a stability problem to the Roman Empire, he still would have been arrested by Herod/Pilate and received THE penalty.

 

Yes, that's true, but then the Jewish people would have missed out on the great blessings they gained by being able to suffer in advance of the rest of the world. Glory, honor and peace comes to the Jews first, because tribulation and anguish came to them first. Romans 2:9-10 http://bible.cc/romans/2-9.htm

 

Even for this scenario: what was Jesus’s role as the JEWISH Messiah in the several years of missionary to the Jews then?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My answer is that Jesus was not acting as Messiah while doing the missionary work to the Jews. He was acting as suffering servant, and he was not attracting the masses but a "little flock". He was focused on the "kingdom of heaven", not the kingdom of earth which Jews expected and God had promised through the prophets. He added a new dimension to the Abrahamic gospel that no one had really thought about yet.

 

This was such a curve-ball to the Jews that most of them struck out at that time. But no problem. The original promises remain, and all the Jews who have ever lived, as well as all the other people who have ever lived, will get in on the good things Messiah will bring to the whole world when the times are ripe for it. I've written quite a bit on this at my websites, www.whyjesusdied.com and www.israelrestored.com

 

Great questions... let me know how my "answers" further confuse the issue.... :-)

[diggin]

From the experience of the ‘Isaiah 53’ thread two weeks ago, I thought I would give it more time for the Christian responses.

 

I presume to constitute that there is this problem with evangelical NT theology until the good answer comes.

 

The reason I think of writing this thread is, basically the evangelicals go, “Jew rejected Jesus as the Messiah, and we Christianity becomes the new Israel…...” So on, so on.

 

One time I asked a Christian what was Jesus supposed to do if Jews had accepted Jesus as Messiah then, he was quite unprepared psychologically and theologically, and could not answer

i.e. his indirect and unspoken answer was, “I don’t have a clue.”

 

My point is: evangelical Christians, if you say you believe Jesus is your Messiah, it is your religion.

 

But if you simply follow the textbook and like, “Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah….” and don’t have a clue what Jesus was supposed to do as Messiah for the Jews in Judea and the Roman Empire, it is depressing.

Then please just drop this thing “Jews rejected Jesus as….”

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I completely agree with you, therefore I disagree with the "replacement theology" view of my evangelical brethren.

 

I think the Holocaust proves how awful that way of thinking is, when you think about it. Imagine all these "Christian" nazis standing around, killing the Jews, and taunting them with the notion that the next thing they'll experience after the gas and the firing squads will be a flaming hell because they "killed God". Ugh. It was Lutheran theology as much as Nietschian superman philosophy and germanic occult idolatry that created the ground of nazism.

 

Here's a link to one of my articles on this: http://www.whyjesusdied.com/2ndHolocaust.html

[diggin]

Very interesting, diggin, thanks for tackling this issue.  I don't think that I can find it to agree with you, however, you did a very very good job at presenting your view. 

 

The Jews will tell you today that gentiles were already saved and they have plenty of scriptures to show favor in their beliefs.  Are you aware of the Noachide Movement?  Basically, all gentiles needed to do in order to be favored by YHWH, were to follow the laws that god gave to Noah after the flood. They were very simple.

 

Yes, I'm aware of the Noachide movement and correspond with some. I think that the Apostles statement in Acts 15 shows that the early church acknowledged the Noachide laws as being the basics that all people aside from Jews should subscribe to going forward. Paul made it clear that for followers of Jesus, the Mosaic Law Covenant was set aside.

 

I also take issue with the eternal torment that many in Christianity accept without question today because it is nowhere to be found in the OT.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So do I. Absolutely do I disagree with the eternal torment concept. I don't think it is taught in the NT either, though it's tougher to prove in view of Jesus' words about the "gehenna" and "the lake of fire" ... another post topic I'd love to take on .... perhaps you can attract some other christians to the forum to debate me on this issue while you guys watch from the peanut gallery... :-)

[dogmatically_challenged]

I completely agree with you, therefore I disagree with the "replacement theology" view of my evangelical brethren.

 

It was Lutheran theology as much as Nietschian superman philosophy and germanic occult idolatry that created the ground of nazism.

 

 

You are building a straw man with Nietzsche Übermensch. Have you even bothered to read all of Nietzsche stuff? Or do you uncritically swallow the bullshit from your fellow christians?

 

Nietzsche's Übermensch philosophy, if I remember right is about how we become the Übermensch by overcoming ourselves. Hitler cherry picked from philosophies, yet he had more material to work with from Luther and the bible than he did with his straw man of Nietzsche. He was talking about ALL men overcomming themselves in this case.

 

germanic occult idolatry that created the ground of nazism.

Your jesus, jehovah, holy spirit; worshipers of those gods are considered to be members of a cult by judaism.

 

Not every germanic "occult" past present and future can be blamed. You should have been more specific in what you mean here.

 

The difference between freethinkers and christians is that we can tell the difference betwen philosophy and theology/religion. You should read philosophy as philosophy only and not confuse it with theology. One can't go too far outside of the box that was invented by mythmakers. The other creates its own box kind of yet can be criticized by ANYONE.

 

Nietzsche was just a man and not a godman. I can take what I like from Nietzsche and OPENLY reject what does not seem reasonable to me. Thats is the difference between free thought and christianity....so far.

[bluewizard]

You are building a straw man with Nietzsche Übermensch. Have you even bothered to read all of Nietzsche stuff? Or do you uncritically swallow the bullshit from your fellow christians?

 

Nietzsche's Übermensch philosophy, if I remember right is about how we become the Übermensch by overcoming ourselves. Hitler cherry picked from philosophies, yet he had more material to work with from Luther and the bible than he did with his straw man of Nietzsche. He was talking about ALL men overcomming themselves in this case.

Your jesus, jehovah, holy spirit; worshipers of those gods are considered to be members of a cult by judaism.

 

Not every germanic "occult" past present and future can be blamed. You should have been more specific in what you mean here.

 

The difference between freethinkers and christians is that we can tell the difference betwen philosophy and theology/religion. You should read philosophy as philosophy only and not confuse it with theology. One can't go too far outside of the box that was invented by mythmakers. The other creates its own box kind of yet can be criticized by ANYONE.

 

Nietzsche was just a man and not a godman. I can take what I like from Nietzsche and OPENLY reject what does not seem reasonable to me. Thats is the difference between free thought and christianity....so far.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nietzche's father was an xtian preacher who died when he was young. He stated Western society better rethink their philsophy cauise xtiantiy is the basis of western society.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Nietzche's father was an xtian preacher who died when he was young. He stated Western society better rethink their philsophy cauise xtiantiy is the basis of western society.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Xianity is an inept form of Nihilism. hehe.

 

(I was forced to read this stuff while detoxing teh booz. My memory isn't the greatest but I think I built a kind of intuition for the straw men that xians make of certain philosophers. )

[diggin]

You are building a straw man with Nietzsche Übermensch. Have you even bothered to read all of Nietzsche stuff? Or do you uncritically swallow the bullshit from your fellow christians?

 

All I was saying is that among Christians it is commonly supposed that Hitler's ideas of a super race came from Nietzche (who I have not read except a few excerpts) and from German occult traditions.... but my point was that Nazi anti-Jewish ideas are at least as deeply, if not more deeply, rooted in Lutheran and also Catholic teachings and traditions. I was laying the blame for the Holocaust upon Christianity, not more recent philosophers.

[dogmatically_challenged]

All I was saying is that among Christians it is commonly supposed that Hitler's ideas of a super race came from Nietzche (who I have not read except a few excerpts) and from German occult traditions.... but my point was that Nazi anti-Jewish ideas are at least as deeply, if not more deeply, rooted in Lutheran and also Catholic teachings and traditions. I was laying the blame for the Holocaust upon Christianity, not more recent philosophers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

diggin wrote:

Ugh. It was Lutheran theology as much as Nietschian superman philosophy and germanic occult idolatry that created the ground of nazism.

I don't think I remember Nietzche ever saying what race of peoples an Übermensch can come from, nor did I get antisemitism from him overal. Of coarse I can be wrong, it's been a while since Iv'e read him. I do not think he was a racist from what I read and its best to read him your self before saying that his philosophy as a whole contributed to nazi propoganda and idealogy.

 

In the case of Nazi propoganda and ideaology I would bet that there was cherry picking of philosophy without consideration of the whole of what Nietzche was all about. Same with evolution and natural selection, same with German "occult" traditions.

 

The real problem lies in the fact that we have no long history of governments or of the christian religions encouraging the people to think criticaly. Freethought is the antidote for evil propaganda and ideaologies. Most people want security and have empathy as well as having the ability to reason if not discouraged by government or religion. The most moral thing to do is to THINK without fear of the consequences that can sometimes come from questioning.

 

Let Nietzche speak for himself by reading all his stuff first. Then and only then should you use what you know of him overal to point out any ideas he had that are evil or damaging. Also remember that a philosopher is not a god man, a pope, not a facist dictator and is not the masses who are encouraged to be ignorant and obediant. At least the thoughts of Nietzche were more coherent than the bible. The bible is not by a long shot and gives us mixed messages. On the one hand the bible in places encourages us to obey without question which is a bad habit in ANY case, yes even in regards what we were taught about god. The book is an "authority" where philosophers are known to be just men and women.