ShackledNoMore Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Consider the following: you are a christian, you died, went to heaven, and now you are basking in eternal paradise. Unfortunately you have parents and/or children and/or a spouse in eternal, unrelenting, excruciating agony, all for not having "accepted jesus christ as their personal savior" (or whatever the criteria of your particular sect happens to be). Wouldn't this put a damper on your eternal joy? I know I'd be pretty miserable knowing for eternity that my loved ones are suffering unending torment in a lake of fire. How do you reconcile this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Shackled, in my younger days with the fundies I seem to recall that I heard them reconcile it with this verse: Revlation 21:3 - And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying "See, the home of God is among mortals. He will dwell with them; they will be his people, and God himself will be with them, he will wipe every tear from their eyes, Death will be no more; mourning and crying and pain will be no more, for the first things have passed away." I have heard this interpeted as what happens to those in heaven. This occurs after the previous verses describing how all the wicked folks are thrown into the lake of fire. So, I think they believe some kind of memory wipe is going to occur to spare them from the thought of their children and relatives in an eternal hell. With the memory wiped out there would be no problem. Of course then we have another issue - if memory of their children, for example, is erased, isn't that also a big part of their life? Could they in any sense be the same entity in heaven as they were on earth? This part of the problem is just never explained very well. As for believing their relatives and family members are going to hell, I am not even sure if fundies actually believe this. They pay it lip service and believe it on some abstract level because its part of the package, but, wouldn't their actions be different in daily life if they did believe it? Think how you would behave if you knew it to be a rock solid fact. Scary thought. I have speculated myself on that. One example: if they thought infants were innocent, as probably most protestants do, wouldn't it be better to kill your kids as soon as they were born? Why take the chance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShackledNoMore Posted October 4, 2007 Author Share Posted October 4, 2007 As I was formulating the question, I was thinking of a memory wipe being one of two possible approaches a xian could take (the other one would avoid the problem of most of your life being a gaping hole, but it would also make the question a lot harder to answer). Another point to address, should any xians decide to take on my question. Like you, I've speculated on the incentive one would think that xians would have to kill their children in infancy to ensure they make it to heaven. Of course, they would go to hell for doing so. But they could kill their children and then repent. But if they planned on repenting during the premeditation phase would they truly be penitent? There's also the thought that VERY few people are going to make it into heaven anyway, making it very likely they'd be saving their children from hellfire, and making their act the ultimate selfless act of love. I also expect that there would be wide disagreement among xians to the answers to these questions, depending on their particular flavor of the cult and personal embellishments to their own beliefs. A pesky little problem--they tend to turn up when one examines xianity. Well, I didn't mean to derail my own thread, but you brought up some interesting points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jeff Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 My aunt is a devout dancin', shoutin', tongue-talkin', pew-jumpin' Charismatic fundie, and I'm sure she doesn't really believe that her brother (my father) is going to barbecue in hell forever. If she did, she would probably never shut up about Kryasst. As it is, they never discuss religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 I know the memory wipe thing when you are in heaven, but what about the here and now. How many Christians believe their loved ones are now being tortured in hell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 I was always told god would erase these thoughts from my memory. Somehow that used to seem reasonable and ok to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 My mom pulled the memory wipe thing on me awhile back (I used to buy into it too) and so I asked her what the purpose of any of this is then? We're told we can't appreciate "good" without "evil" and all but if it's all wiped away then it was pointless. We become the very robots that we argue against and we no longer have the "bad" times so that we can appreciate the "good." It was all for nothing. She thought about it and agreed but had no other answer. There's no way to reconcile these things unless it's a supernatural lobotomy if you do know and just don't care. To add to what DevaLight said, that verse proves you won't be in heaven anyway. It says "god" is coming to earth to be with us and not the other way around. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbobrob Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 The problem I have with the memory wipe solution is that we lose a part of ourselves in the process. If I made it to Heaven (it is a stretch, but work with me), and my wife did not...and God came along and wiped my memory of her from me, wouldn't I then have these annoying gaps in my memory? Since Heaven is where our consciousness is supposed to go, what would hte point of wiping away huge chunks of it and diminish the soul that arrives. Maybe God would give us the delusion of our loved ones being there, acting the way we always dreamed they would, we gt placed in Matrix-like soul catching cells, and we live our desired Heavenly delights, that way we don't have to spend eternity with that witch of an ex who made it to Heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Wouldn't this put a damper on your eternal joy? I know I'd be pretty miserable knowing for eternity that my loved ones are suffering unending torment in a lake of fire. How do you reconcile this? This is one of the things that traumatized me as a child. I remember the last day's Sunday school lesson. I started crying.. The teacher took me out into the hall way and asked why I was so upset. I told her my Dad wasn't saved and I didn't want him to go to hell. She informed me that God would erase my father from my mind and It would be as if I never knew him. This only upset me further. These people are abusers and have no concept of Love. If it's perfectly alright with them for god to erase their minds and make it as though their loved ones never existed, all the while their loved ones are burning. They are evil and selfish to the core and don't know love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Consider the following: you are a christian, you died, went to heaven, and now you are basking in eternal paradise. Unfortunately you have parents and/or children and/or a spouse in eternal, unrelenting, excruciating agony, all for not having "accepted jesus christ as their personal savior" (or whatever the criteria of your particular sect happens to be). Wouldn't this put a damper on your eternal joy? I know I'd be pretty miserable knowing for eternity that my loved ones are suffering unending torment in a lake of fire. How do you reconcile this? Wait wait I have an answer! Since god can do anything, he would just create virtual replacements for them, for you, so you wouldn't know they were being deep fried to crispy perfection! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Wait wait I have an answer! Since god can do anything, he would just create virtual replacements for them, for you, so you wouldn't know they were being deep fried to crispy perfection! Thinking about this it seems to actually be the perfect solution... We are told that "god" is perfect justice and perfect mercy. Obviously these things are contradictory. So the perfect solution you've stumbled across is that we all get cloned and ALL of us get tossed into the fire and ALL of us get to live with him in paradise. This way jesus truly did die for all of our sins just as it says. We are all sheeps AND goats. We all get to turn AND burn. This is how there are no contradictions in the salvation plan since we all do both. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piprus Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Consider the following: you are a christian, you died, went to heaven, and now you are basking in eternal paradise. Unfortunately you have parents and/or children and/or a spouse in eternal, unrelenting, excruciating agony, all for not having "accepted jesus christ as their personal savior" (or whatever the criteria of your particular sect happens to be). Wouldn't this put a damper on your eternal joy? I know I'd be pretty miserable knowing for eternity that my loved ones are suffering unending torment in a lake of fire. How do you reconcile this? It's a perfectly legitimate question, SNM. In order to accept the premise that you can be happy in heaven pitted against the knowledge that certain of your loved ones including a parent, a child, a spouse, or whomever, is destined to suffer eternally in the christian hell, you would literally have to be "Stepfordized". You would need to be turned into an unfeeling, dead-but-undead creature without the ability to be empathic to the sufferings of another creature's reality. THAT is REALLY hell. Heaven IS therefore hell, and hell is also hell. Therefore, hell is the only afterlife. 'Twould be interesting to see how the xians counter THAT opening to discussion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShackledNoMore Posted October 5, 2007 Author Share Posted October 5, 2007 I know the memory wipe thing when you are in heaven, but what about the here and now. How many Christians believe their loved ones are now being tortured in hell? They have to compartmentalize, just like with so many elements of their religion. This is one of the things that traumatized me as a child. I remember the last day's Sunday school lesson. I started crying.. The teacher took me out into the hall way and asked why I was so upset. I told her my Dad wasn't saved and I didn't want him to go to hell. She informed me that God would erase my father from my mind and It would be as if I never knew him. This only upset me further. I also cried in torment over the fate of my grandfather during the height of my pentecostal days. Four years later when he died I was far enough along in my deconversion process so that I merely grieved that he had died, without the additional torment of being obsessed with the thought that he was in hell. For any that truly believe that the "unsaved" go to hell, the death of an "unsaved" loved one must be a horrible, horrible trauma to bear the rest of your life. Funny that they don't show it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 For any that truly believe that the "unsaved" go to hell, the death of an "unsaved" loved one must be a horrible, horrible trauma to bear the rest of your life. Funny that they don't show it. They don't show it because they don't really believe it. Because they know what kind of an indictment that would be upon their religion and their Almighty God. Ever been to a funeral of a believer's unbelieving spouse? I have. And the funeral is filled with "well, we never can really tell about these things", "God can make a way", "who knows what was actually in his heart", "maybe at the last minute he saw the light and repented", etc, etc. Not ONE person has ever said, "Gee, Mabel, it's too bad ol' Charlie is screaming in torment right now. That'll teach him to spend all of his Sundays fishing. He should have listened to us when he had the chance. Dumb bastard". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arseniajoaquin Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 Consider the following: you are a christian, you died, went to heaven, and now you are basking in eternal paradise. Unfortunately you have parents and/or children and/or a spouse in eternal, unrelenting, excruciating agony, all for not having "accepted jesus christ as their personal savior" (or whatever the criteria of your particular sect happens to be). Wouldn't this put a damper on your eternal joy? I know I'd be pretty miserable knowing for eternity that my loved ones are suffering unending torment in a lake of fire. How do you reconcile this? We are given the freedom to choose - your loved ones who did not like to obey God or God? God killed the two sons of Aaron in front of him and all the Israelites and so Mouses told Aaron to calm down otherwise he and even his other sons would also be killed. God is the most powerful of all and we are His creations. God should be no. 1 and that goes true with me. I would be helpless if my loved ones did not like to obey having been given all the chances to do so. We cannot split ourselves, we have to choose- go to hell with our loved ones or be with God. For me, I would choose to be with God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 We are given the freedom to choose - your loved ones who did not like to obey God or God? God killed the two sons of Aaron in front of him and all the Israelites and so Mouses told Aaron to calm down otherwise he and even his other sons would also be killed. God is the most powerful of all and we are His creations. God should be no. 1 and that goes true with me. I would be helpless if my loved ones did not like to obey having been given all the chances to do so. We cannot split ourselves, we have to choose- go to hell with our loved ones or be with God. For me, I would choose to be with God. We are given the freedom to choose - your loved ones who did not like to obey Saddam Hussein? Saddam Hussein killed the dissenters right in front of their families and all the Iraqis and so Tariq Aziz told the Iraqi people to calm down otherwise they and even their sons would also be killed. Saddam Hussein is the most powerful of all rulers in Iraq and we Iraqis are His subjects. Saddam Hussein should be no. 1 and that goes true with me. I would be helpless if my loved ones did not like to obey having been given all the chances to do so. We cannot split ourselves, we have to choose- be killed by Saddam Hussein with our loved ones or be with Saddam Hussein. For me, I would choose to be with Saddam Hussein. Same rules, different tyrrant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabula Rasa Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 We are given the freedom to choose - your loved ones who did not like to obey God or God? God killed the two sons of Aaron in front of him and all the Israelites and so Mouses told Aaron to calm down otherwise he and even his other sons would also be killed. God is the most powerful of all and we are His creations. God should be no. 1 and that goes true with me. I would be helpless if my loved ones did not like to obey having been given all the chances to do so. We cannot split ourselves, we have to choose- go to hell with our loved ones or be with God. For me, I would choose to be with God. Your statement translates to this:GOD HATES US ALL. You know what's awfully sad? You don't worship God because you love him, you worship him because you'reTERRIFIED OF HIM. For God so loved the world? No, I don't think so. You see, too many people, christians or otherwise imagine God to be this terrible vengeful being who will kill people and make them suffer eternal torment if they refuse to worship him, or don't worship him in the right manner(Christianity.) Or don't live almost sin free lives. It is impossible to love a God like this. There is no love involved it's terror. You don't love Jesus, you're afraid of him. A truly loving God is not a petty and hateful monster that'd torment his own creations forever. You see, I still believe in God, but I cannot believe he's hateful and vicious as the Bible teaches. My prayer, such as it is, is that you realize that God, whatever he or she might be, is not a GIANT FIRE BREATHING TYRANT who demands we be his slaves or suffer eternal torment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 We are given the freedom to choose - your loved ones who did not like to obey God or God? God killed the two sons of Aaron in front of him and all the Israelites and so Mouses told Aaron to calm down otherwise he and even his other sons would also be killed. God is the most powerful of all and we are His creations. God should be no. 1 and that goes true with me. I would be helpless if my loved ones did not like to obey having been given all the chances to do so. We cannot split ourselves, we have to choose- go to hell with our loved ones or be with God. For me, I would choose to be with God. So you are doing it to fulfill you own desires? You want to go to Heaven. You don't want to go to Hell. You're afraid of Hell and God's punishment. It's all about what you feel, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShackledNoMore Posted October 21, 2007 Author Share Posted October 21, 2007 Consider the following: you are a christian, you died, went to heaven, and now you are basking in eternal paradise. Unfortunately you have parents and/or children and/or a spouse in eternal, unrelenting, excruciating agony, all for not having "accepted jesus christ as their personal savior" (or whatever the criteria of your particular sect happens to be). Wouldn't this put a damper on your eternal joy? I know I'd be pretty miserable knowing for eternity that my loved ones are suffering unending torment in a lake of fire. How do you reconcile this? We are given the freedom to choose - your loved ones who did not like to obey God or God? God killed the two sons of Aaron in front of him and all the Israelites and so Mouses told Aaron to calm down otherwise he and even his other sons would also be killed. God is the most powerful of all and we are His creations. God should be no. 1 and that goes true with me. I would be helpless if my loved ones did not like to obey having been given all the chances to do so. We cannot split ourselves, we have to choose- go to hell with our loved ones or be with God. For me, I would choose to be with God. Sounds to me as if the god of the Bible is nothing more than a childish, sadistic, hate filled tyrant....that is IF he were to ever exist. It sounds that way to me, too. How about Arsenia? If I had a kid that against my admonitions got drunk, got in a car, had a terrible accident, and as the consequences he either died or had to live the rest of his life suffering, I would not smugly console myself that he could have chosen more responsibly and then go on my happy way never to shed a tear. I would grieve terribly for him or her. Putting aside the fact that the alleged xian god seems to feel differently about his children than I do mine, it appears he expects the same out of you, and apparently gets it. Again, would YOU truly be joyous in heaven knowing that your loved ones are suffering in ETERNAL agony in a lake of fire, even if they did chose it be deciding not to follow god. It's one thing being separated with them to be with god, but I'm talking about knowing their terrible suffering. Is this how god's love shines through his servants? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolution_beyond Posted October 21, 2007 Share Posted October 21, 2007 Consider the following: you are a christian, you died, went to heaven, and now you are basking in eternal paradise. Unfortunately you have parents and/or children and/or a spouse in eternal, unrelenting, excruciating agony, all for not having "accepted jesus christ as their personal savior" (or whatever the criteria of your particular sect happens to be). Wouldn't this put a damper on your eternal joy? I know I'd be pretty miserable knowing for eternity that my loved ones are suffering unending torment in a lake of fire. How do you reconcile this? We are given the freedom to choose - your loved ones who did not like to obey God or God? God killed the two sons of Aaron in front of him and all the Israelites and so Mouses told Aaron to calm down otherwise he and even his other sons would also be killed. God is the most powerful of all and we are His creations. God should be no. 1 and that goes true with me. I would be helpless if my loved ones did not like to obey having been given all the chances to do so. We cannot split ourselves, we have to choose- go to hell with our loved ones or be with God. For me, I would choose to be with God. But how could you enjoy heaven if your loved ones were suffering in Hell? And even if God could magically take away your concern and misery for the fate of your loved ones - why would you even want such a horrible thing as to be able to turn a blind eye to their suffering? You see - Hell is the most immoral concept I have ever heard of! A loving God would want to teach and reach his creations - even after they have died. A loving God would forgive those who felt regret for when they have wronged people, whether they had heard of Jesus or not, and whether they wanted anything to do with christianity or not. A loving God would forgive those who didn't realise they were doing wrong or were too caught up in their own suffering to be able to think rationally. A loving God would see the benefit of people learning from their mistakes - and would see the end result of learning better as more important than the temporary mistake - and he would never command people to obey but would let them figure it out themselves - and he certainly wouldn't scare them with talk of eternal punishment - because he would understand that to do right out of fear is not to do right at all. A LOVING GOD IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH THE EXISTENCE OF HELL!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South2003 Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 This fundie has been droping shit all over the forums for the past couple of days and I'm beginning to puke. At first it was funny but now it's guiet irritating. I say, missy, give me subjective proof of your god/jesus, hell, heaven (and I don't want scriputre readings) or shut the fu*k up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 God is the most powerful of all and we are His creations. God should be no. 1 and that goes true with me. I would be helpless if my loved ones did not like to obey having been given all the chances to do so. We cannot split ourselves, we have to choose- go to hell with our loved ones or be with God. For me, I would choose to be with God. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." What if your "god" says "You abandoned your friends. Your family. You failed my test. I'm abandoning you." And tosses you aside? Why give you that rule if he doesn't expect you to follow it? How can he expect you to do unto others and then give up everything, including others, to follow him? That just doesn't follow. How can you expect people to remain loyal to you knowing that you are not loyal to them (except if they agree with your belief system)? You don't deserve loyalty by anyone or anything if this is your attitude. You are simply looking out for yourself. So, it appears that once you are alone in "heaven," all your loved ones will be there. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShackledNoMore Posted October 23, 2007 Author Share Posted October 23, 2007 God is the most powerful of all and we are His creations. God should be no. 1 and that goes true with me. I would be helpless if my loved ones did not like to obey having been given all the chances to do so. We cannot split ourselves, we have to choose- go to hell with our loved ones or be with God. For me, I would choose to be with God. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." What if your "god" says "You abandoned your friends. Your family. You failed my test. I'm abandoning you." And tosses you aside? Why give you that rule if he doesn't expect you to follow it? How can he expect you to do unto others and then give up everything, including others, to follow him? That just doesn't follow. How can you expect people to remain loyal to you knowing that you are not loyal to them (except if they agree with your belief system)? You don't deserve loyalty by anyone or anything if this is your attitude. You are simply looking out for yourself. So, it appears that once you are alone in "heaven," all your loved ones will be there. mwc How about gang initiation where your prove your loyalty to the gang by bumping off a rival or non-gang member? Abraham certainly wasn't showing his loyalty to his son as he prepared to kill him at god's behest, but he was sure towing the line for his honcho, da boss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 How about gang initiation where your prove your loyalty to the gang by bumping off a rival or non-gang member? Hmmm...street gang or mafia type gang? I wonder if it makes a difference? I concede ignorance to the sociology of gangs but if it truly does amount to "kill or be killed" or "there's no honor among thieves" then selling out your family/friends for that big "payoff" still may not get you all that you bargained for in the end. Abraham certainly wasn't showing his loyalty to his son as he prepared to kill him at god's behest, but he was sure towing the line for his honcho, da boss. I was hoping to stay out of the OT. But since there was no "hell" during that part of the theology all Isaac's burning flesh was going to do is make a sweet smell unto the LORD. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Consider the following: you are a christian, you died, went to heaven, and now you are basking in eternal paradise. Unfortunately you have parents and/or children and/or a spouse in eternal, unrelenting, excruciating agony, all for not having "accepted jesus christ as their personal savior" (or whatever the criteria of your particular sect happens to be). Wouldn't this put a damper on your eternal joy? I know I'd be pretty miserable knowing for eternity that my loved ones are suffering unending torment in a lake of fire. How do you reconcile this? Absolute lie to me as there could be no such thing as a heaven if all creation were not there. Ive even heard some christians when asked this question say 'God will wipe out our memory of our loved ones so we wont be sad'. Wow, what a sweet thing for God to do so now you can enjoy watching anonymous people you have no feelings or memories of be tormented forever while you party and enjoy a feast. Makes no sense and Im ashamed to say I believed in a God that would eternally torment most of His creation for years. I believed it, but backfiled it cause I couldnt handle it. But I no longer believe that kept Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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