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Goodbye Jesus

Your Loved Ones In Hell


ShackledNoMore

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The bible says that EVERY knee shall bow.

 

The bible says that ALL CREATION is waiting for redemption/renewal.

 

The bible, in Jesus' words, says, "behold, i make ALL THINGS new."

 

Somehow, siiiigh, once again, the passages used to justify a fairy-land utopia and the passages used to scare the 'unbeliever' with stories about monsters, demons, horsemen, angels and virgin Jewish armies all got mixed up together. Ohh, well... it's a good thing that there's one good, solid method for sorting it all out:

 

It's all a bunch of folk-tale religion made up tp prop up the powerful and subjugate the weak and poor. It's all a bunch of SHIT, Arsenia and her xtian babble-buhleevurrs notwithstanding.

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The bible says that EVERY knee shall bow.

 

The bible says that ALL CREATION is waiting for redemption/renewal.

 

The bible, in Jesus' words, says, "behold, i make ALL THINGS new."

 

Somehow, siiiigh, once again, the passages used to justify a fairy-land utopia and the passages used to scare the 'unbeliever' with stories about monsters, demons, horsemen, angels and virgin Jewish armies all got mixed up together. Ohh, well... it's a good thing that there's one good, solid method for sorting it all out:

 

It's all a bunch of folk-tale religion made up tp prop up the powerful and subjugate the weak and poor. It's all a bunch of SHIT, Arsenia and her xtian babble-buhleevurrs notwithstanding.

 

If every knee will bow, does that mean God and Jesus are bowing too? Could it be that when perfect love has done its work all will love all and be in all and of all?

this is my belief

utopia I suppose, and maybe a fairytale to many but life to me at this time in my understanding

 

yes I do believe every knee will bow, but not in some fearful way to a tyrant God because Hes bigger than them and could squash them like a bug

but because all will bow to all, all will fall in love with all, and all will be filled with God and God will be filled with all

 

all in all

that is what I see at this time

 

sojourner

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This all reminds me of a Jewish story of a man and his dog:

 

The only way to heaven

 

A man and his dog were walking along a road The man was enjoying the scenery. when it suddenly occurred to him that he was dead. He remembered dying, and that the dog walking beside him had been dead for years. He wondered where the road was leading them. After a while, they came to a high, white stone wan along one side of the road. It looked like fine marble. At the top of a long hill. it was broken by a tall arch that glowed in the sunlight. When he was standing before it, he saw a magnificent gate in the arch that looked like mother of pearl, and the street that led to the gate looked like pure gold. He and the dog walked toward the gate, and as he got closer, he saw a man at a desk to one side. When he was close enough, he called out, ‘Excuse me, where are we?"

 

‘This is Heaven, sir." the man answered.

 

‘Wow! Would you happen to have some water?’ the man asked.

 

"Of course, sir. Come right in. and I’ll have some ice water brought right up." The man gestured, and the gate began to open.

 

‘Can my friend," gesturing toward his dog. "come in, too?’ the traveler asked,

 

‘Im sorry, sir, but we don’t accept pets."

 

The man thought a moment and then turned back toward the road and continued the way he had been going with his dog. After another long walk, and at The top of another long hilt, he came to a dirt road which led through a gate that looked as if it had never been closed. There was no fence. As he approached the gate, he sow a man Inside, leaning against a tree and reading a book.

 

"Excuse me" he called to the reader. "Do you have any water?"

 

‘Yeah, sure, there’s a pump over there:’

 

The man pointed to a place that couldn’t be seen from outside the gate. ‘Come on in:’

 

"How about my friend here?" the traveler gestured to the dog.

‘There should be a bowl by the pump."

 

They went through the gate. and sure enough, there was an old fashioned hand pump with a bowl beside it. The traveler filled the bowl and took a long drink himself, then he gave some to the dog. When they were full, he and the dog walked back toward the man who was standing by the free waiting for them.

 

‘What do you call this place?" the traveler asked.

 

‘This is Heaven." was the answer.

 

‘Well. that's confusing." the traveler said. ‘The man down the road said that was Heaven, too."

 

"Oh. you mean the place with the gold street and pearly gates? Nope. That’s Hell."

 

"Doesn’t it make you mad for them to use your name like that?’

 

"No. I can see how you might think so, but we’re just happy that they screen out the folks Who’ll leave their best friends behind.

 

@@@

 

I get the sense a lot of Christians fall into this trap.

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Is 'christians fall into this trap' meaning you think Im in this trap? What trap exactly?

 

if so can you explain why you think so and what you would deem my way out of the trap Im in is?

 

thanks

 

sojourner

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Ive even heard some christians when asked this question say 'God will wipe out our memory of our loved ones so we wont be sad'. Wow, what a sweet thing for God to do so now you can enjoy watching anonymous people you have no feelings or memories of be tormented forever while you party and enjoy a feast.

 

 

Actually *memory* is a product of data recieved in the brain and "fired" on to brain cells. There is no way in science to either remember where you were before you were born, or remember what happens after you die *if* you do find consciousness again. (in a truly ™ infinite multiverse it is possible, another discussion though).

 

There would be no need to worry about this at all since memory would be impossible.

 

Also, there are many things associated with *brain* that people think of as *soul*. Like your personality for example. Are you a mathmatician? Are you a surgeon? All those things are taught. And not *everyone* is capable of learning them. The differences lie in the brain and the genetic make up, which if heaven or hell existed, you would not have a brain, ergo no personality, or consciousness.

 

If a serial killer or serial armed robber died, all the psychological, chemical and social problems causing this manifestation of ill behaviour would *vanish* at death, since the brain, housing the mind, would no longer be functional.

 

So, you wouldn't remember anything about "loved ones in hell" since they would not be in *hell* in the first place because when it is all said and done *all* are nether innocent or guilty, we simply *are*. No need to punish a defective product, fix it or replace it.

 

No heaven either in this scenario since you obviously have not *earned* anything, merely walked through your walk of life to the best of your ability. Be you right or wrong, you only did what your path and physical/mental circumstances dictated you would do. No reward should be given.

 

And why reward someone for *not* doing *bad* things? Do you get a tax cut for not being a criminal? Does anyone send you a check because you *did not* beat your kids? No reward *should* be given for doing what you are *supposed* to do in the first place.

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Is 'christians fall into this trap' meaning you think Im in this trap? What trap exactly?

 

if so can you explain why you think so and what you would deem my way out of the trap Im in is?

 

thanks

 

sojourner

I can't speak for Robbobrob, but I did like the story, and I can tell you what it meant to me and how I could agree that it illustrates a trap that xians fall into:

 

It really does fall into the "what's in it for me" theme that is common among xians and that has been touched on several times lately on this board. It showed up in the thread on Pascal's Wager with the idea of trying to take out an insurance policy to avoid hell without consideration of the costs of xianity and similar religions on society. The lure, the focus presented, and taken, reek of what has to be termed as selfish attention to one's own self interest: take the ultimate pleasure for yourself (heaven) while avoiding the ultimate pain (hell). If you could FORCE your loved ones to convert, then altruism would come into the equation, but ultimately you can't. You can try. But under the xian god paradigm, if they don't convert, you'll go to heaven, they'll go to hell, and you, somehow, magically won't worry about it. Arsenia illustrated it in this thread by focusing on her promised afterlife with god, while philosophically conceding that her "unsaved" relatives chose their fate (or so she thought), and the conclusion: oh well, at least I'll be with god.

 

I do not believe there is an afterlife, certainly not an xian afterlife. The lure, getting to heaven and avoiding hell, is what those xains focus on, but the trap is in life. Those xians have alienated, forsaken, shunned and ostracised their friends and loved ones. Some do it more than others. The worst cases pick out parts of the bible that foster a belief that they are a people set apart and/or completely shut out friends and family. They have very much left their friends behind just as in the allegory. It's unfortunate, but true.

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Is 'christians fall into this trap' meaning you think Im in this trap? What trap exactly?

 

if so can you explain why you think so and what you would deem my way out of the trap Im in is?

 

thanks

 

sojourner

I can't speak for Robbobrob, but I did like the story, and I can tell you what it meant to me and how I could agree that it illustrates a trap that xians fall into:

 

It really does fall into the "what's in it for me" theme that is common among xians and that has been touched on several times lately on this board. It showed up in the thread on Pascal's Wager with the idea of trying to take out an insurance policy to avoid hell without consideration of the costs of xianity and similar religions on society. The lure, the focus presented, and taken, reek of what has to be termed as selfish attention to one's own self interest: take the ultimate pleasure for yourself (heaven) while avoiding the ultimate pain (hell). If you could FORCE your loved ones to convert, then altruism would come into the equation, but ultimately you can't. You can try. But under the xian god paradigm, if they don't convert, you'll go to heaven, they'll go to hell, and you, somehow, magically won't worry about it. Arsenia illustrated it in this thread by focusing on her promised afterlife with god, while philosophically conceding that her "unsaved" relatives chose their fate (or so she thought), and the conclusion: oh well, at least I'll be with god.

 

I do not believe there is an afterlife, certainly not an xian afterlife. The lure, getting to heaven and avoiding hell, is what those xains focus on, but the trap is in life. Those xians have alienated, forsaken, shunned and ostracised their friends and loved ones. Some do it more than others. The worst cases pick out parts of the bible that foster a belief that they are a people set apart and/or completely shut out friends and family. They have very much left their friends behind just as in the allegory. It's unfortunate, but true.

 

yep same thing with the rapture thing that most believe in to me. We are special so God will come get us and take us out of this place while the rest of you ingrates are going to go thru His wrath.

 

I dont believe that at all. I dont have an insurance policy but a relationship. To me heaven and hell are right here right now within mankind. Whether there is a literal place called heaven is not really the point to me cause to me where as athiests feel this is it, I feel Im living eternal life now right here.

 

Im not waiting to die physically so I can enter a place Im unfamiliar with to me, but rather death to me is vital only to lay this body down that limits me so much.

 

I can see what you are saying though very much

 

sojourner

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