The Name "jehovah"

[מה טבו]

Maybe this makes me the religious grammar nazi - I don't know. But this bugs me when someone says they worship "Jehovah."

 

The name "Jehovah" is not the Hebrew name of God. Not even close. If you're into historical trivia, here's the origin of the name. Some of you already know this, I'm sure. Maybe others don't.

 

It descends from the tetragrammaton, which is roughly equivalent to YHVH (Hebrew has no native vowels). Well, there is a system of vowels in Hebrew that can be "tacked on" to Hebrew letters for help with pronunciation. It's not really part of the language - just a phonetic aid. Some copies of the Torah have this for people who need to learn how to say the trope.

 

Back in the bad old days, a German priest got himself a copy of the Torah with these vowels added on. He saw YHVH, but with the vowels "a o a" added on. He thought that this meant YHVH was pronounced "Yahovah." (He was medeival German, so he wrote a "J" for the "y" sound.) The English speakers read this as "Jahovah" or "Jehovah."

 

It appears the priest had learned a bit of Hebrew, but knew nothing about Judaism. The Jews do not speak the tetragrammaton aloud, and when they come across it in reading, they say "Adonai" instead. (Nobody really even knows how it's pronounced now.) The "a o a" tacked on to the tetragrammaton was a visual reminder to the Hebrew reader to say "Adonai" instead of pronouncing the tetragrammaton.

 

The priest didn't know this - mistranslated some Hebrew - and "Jehovah" was born.

[L.B.]

Interestingly enough, a person I met years ago posited this explanation RE: pronunciation of the tetragrammaton...

 

The word in Hebrew for the tribe of "Judah" is Yehudah/Yahudah. (admittedly some slight disagreements over exact spelling)

 

The letters that make up "Yahudah" are the same as the letters that make up YHWH/YHVH, minus the "d". Hence, a possible pronunciation approaching "Yahuah" (ya-hoo-ah).

 

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What makes me nuts about the "Jehovah" thing is the idea that the second and last letters of YHWH/YHVH are the same. Why, then, would a person say "JE-ho-va" when it would make sense for it to be either "JA-ho-vah" or "JE-ho-VEH" (not as far as stressing those syllables, but in the sound of them)? The letters in the word are the same; they should be pronounced the same.

 

What else is interesting is that "Jesus" is so laughable as a "transliteration" of Greek "Iesous", which is supposedly a transliteration of "Yashua/Yeshua". Bull-shua, I say. I have never taken a person's name, from another language, and mangled it into some kind of "americanese" English. Tenzin Gyatso is the given name of the Dalai Lama. If I were to address him BY that given name, I would have to pronounce it as it it supposed to be pronounced. I would certainly not try to say something else, probably giving a whole new definition to the person's name in the process. Obviously, it mattered to the Gentile translators of the Babble that the names didn't sound so "Jew". Ditto with "Jehovah".

 

In short, the mythical, magical SkyMan, the Flying Zombie Jew and the UberGhostie couldn't 'inspire' correct spelling, translations, transliterations or historical and scientific facts. What shit that book is.

[mwc]

The problem is you're saying it all wrong. Gods name is not pronounced ji-hoh-vuh but jee-zuhs.

 

 

mwc

[Jun]

I have never taken a person's name, from another language, and mangled it into some kind of "americanese" English.

 

Commendable indeed. You would be the first American I've come across to even care. When I've tried to correct Americans who pronounce Japanese names wrong I'm often told, "I'm an American not a Jap and that's how I say it!"

[L.B.]

Would I be correct in pronouncing your name as Rev. Joon-PAY? (emphasis on the second syllable?)

 

Seriously, I am a great fan of languages, and I love the fun of learning to pronounce words, names and phrases as closely to their intended sound as I can. I am often told that my Spanish, while rusty from years of disuse, sounds "Cuban" in its inflections and all the little dialetical quirks. Being a "baby Buddhist" and a great fan of Oriental language and culture, I want to learn a Chinese dialect when I begin my martial-arts training in earnest with a native intstructor.

 

I'm the FIRST American you've met to care about these things? I'm honored to be the first. Domo arigato, Rev. Junpei.

[Ouroboros]

Interestingly enough, a person I met years ago posited this explanation RE: pronunciation of the tetragrammaton...

 

The word in Hebrew for the tribe of "Judah" is Yehudah/Yahudah. (admittedly some slight disagreements over exact spelling)

 

The letters that make up "Yahudah" are the same as the letters that make up YHWH/YHVH, minus the "d". Hence, a possible pronunciation approaching "Yahuah" (ya-hoo-ah).

That's very interesting, and it fits with something I heard once. Someone said that YHWH was a tribal god, and that the name of the tribe and the god's name usually were the same. Very interesting, YHWH was Judah's tribal god and the name the same.

 

What else is interesting is that "Jesus" is so laughable as a "transliteration" of Greek "Iesous", which is supposedly a transliteration of "Yashua/Yeshua". Bull-shua, I say. I have never taken a person's name, from another language, and mangled it into some kind of "americanese" English. Tenzin Gyatso is the given name of the Dalai Lama. If I were to address him BY that given name, I would have to pronounce it as it it supposed to be pronounced. I would certainly not try to say something else, probably giving a whole new definition to the person's name in the process. Obviously, it mattered to the Gentile translators of the Babble that the names didn't sound so "Jew". Ditto with "Jehovah".

I don't agree. Names do go through changes and transliterations. My name is an example of it. Hans, comes from Hannes, comes from Johannes, where John also comes from. We have a guy at work whose name is Khoa, but he goes by the name Karl. And I've seen other examples of it.

 

In short, the mythical, magical SkyMan, the Flying Zombie Jew and the UberGhostie couldn't 'inspire' correct spelling, translations, transliterations or historical and scientific facts. What shit that book is.

That I agree on. It's strange that the Creator of the Universe and Everything, can't get the story straight in a little book! God messed up with Babel. If he had let humanity stick with one langauge, we wouldn't have the translation problems, and maybe he would have had more "saved"?

[L.B.]

"My name is an example of it. Hans, comes from Hannes, comes from Johannes, where John also comes from. We have a guy at work whose name is Khoa, but he goes by the name Karl. And I've seen other examples of it."

 

OK, granted, your name COMES from, etymologically, another legitimate name. "Jesus", however, is unique in that there are no other people named that BEFORE the Greek NT. No other Greek-speakers were naming their children "Iesous" after the Xtian man/deity**. All the people who name their kids "Jesus" (Hay-soos) are doing so AS A RESULT of the made-up name of "Jesus". Hans is a LEGIT variation on a legitimate name, Johannes, which is itself a VARIANT of Yahuchanon from the Hebrew. It's not a transliteration; it's a variant, ergo, a different name. If your name WAS Yahuchanon (ya-hoo-KHAN-on), people would call you that if they cared to address you properly.

 

All that being said, your friend Khoa GOES BY Karl; that's his choice. It doesn't preclude the fact that if someone were to address him by his given name, they would call him Khoa, which is his legal and proper name. If I wanted to pronounce Khoa and instead came up with "Cola" or "Coco", I would be WRONG if my goal was the proper sound of his given name.

 

All I'm saying is that in Greek or in any other language, if someone came to me and said their name was Yeshua, I would have to find a way to CALL them Yeshua, even if it was strange and foreign-sounding to me.

 

**The truth behind the change from Yeshua to "Iesous" has more to do with an intent to identify "Iesous" with the Greek god of healing, Ieso. The "us" ending is just typical of Elizabethan English mangling of Hebrew and Greek names, for example: Eliseus for "Elisha", and so on.

 

Anyway, take all this with a smile. I'm not trying to argue, just stimulate discussion. Frankly, I believe I have the CORRECT pronunciation of "Jehovah" and "Jesus" and so on:

 

"Motherfucking imaginary pox on humanity".

[mwc]

OK, granted, your name COMES from, etymologically, another legitimate name. "Jesus", however, is unique in that there are no other people named that BEFORE the Greek NT. No other Greek-speakers were naming their children "Iesous" after the Xtian man/deity**. All the people who name their kids "Jesus" (Hay-soos) are doing so AS A RESULT of the made-up name of "Jesus".

...

**The truth behind the change from Yeshua to "Iesous" has more to do with an intent to identify "Iesous" with the Greek god of healing, Ieso. The "us" ending is just typical of Elizabethan English mangling of Hebrew and Greek names, for example: Eliseus for "Elisha", and so on.

I'm curious about all of this. Do you have any pointers?

 

mwc

[Robbobrob]

The thing that gets me about the whole Jehovah thing and even the Yahweh thing, why does not the last H get a vowel (or in Yahweh, either H)?

 

***

 

There is a great book called the Chicken Kabalah (funny, irreverent look at Jewish mysticism) that talks about that pronounciation of God's name. Only the priests were allowed to speak the name, and only on certian days, and only with the Ark of the Covenent. It was a chant, and it went through every combination of vowels that you could say with Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey. The name of God was not any one combination, but all of them combined.

[Grandpa Harley]

I have never taken a person's name, from another language, and mangled it into some kind of "americanese" English.

 

Commendable indeed. You would be the first American I've come across to even care. When I've tried to correct Americans who pronounce Japanese names wrong I'm often told, "I'm an American not a Jap and that's how I say it!"

 

The answer to that is 'No, being American isn't an excuse for being stupid, arrogant and loudly wrong... I think that's all your own work'

 

Some folk think they're entitled to their own facts...

[Jun]

Would I be correct in pronouncing your name as Rev. Joon-PAY? (emphasis on the second syllable?)

 

No. It is pronounced jyun peh i. Jyun is short, not as in June. No emphasis is placed on any syllables. There are in fact three sounds - ã˜ã‚…ã‚“ (jyun) 㺠(peh) ã„ (i)

 

It surprises most to learn that the Japanese language is not an Asian/oriental language at all but an Altaic language related to Turkish, Korean, and Mongolian.

 

I'm the FIRST American you've met to care about these things? I'm honoured to be the first. Domo arigato, Rev. Junpei.

 

Indeed you are. Dõ itashimashite.

 

The answer to that is 'No, being American isn't an excuse for being stupid, arrogant and loudly wrong... I think that's all your own work'

 

Some folk think they're entitled to their own facts...

 

I guess so.

 

As to the name of "God," did he name himself or did his followers name him? Did "God" give his name when he appeared to Moses? Did he ever say I am "God" and my name is....? Why would a "God" need a personal name anyhow? For his pension? To distinguish himself from the other "Gods?"

[Grandpa Harley]

Maybe it was so they could recognise him among all the other Gods available...

[מה טבו]

<parachute_pants>Stop.

 

Grammar Time. Dun nun nah nun nah... </parachute_pants>

 

Judah is an Anglicazation of Yehudah (יְהוּדָה) roughly YHUDH. You see the YH in there because the name actually includes YH, an abbreviation for the name YHVH often used in names referring to him. The name means, I will give praise to YHWH. When you hear a Hebrew name with "Yah", "Yahu", "Yeh", or even "Yeho", it usually means something having to do with God.

 

Take for example, Yehoshua (יְהוֹשֻ××¢Ö·), which we translate as Joshua. It means YHVH saves. A later, abbreviated form of the name was "Yeshua" - sound familiar? L.B. is right - "Jesus" is a pretty significant mistranslation. The most accurate translation is "Josh."

 

The thing that gets me about the whole Jehovah thing and even the Yahweh thing, why does not the last H get a vowel (or in Yahweh, either H)?

 

Not sure. It's not uncommon for Hebrew names to end in a silent H.

[mwc]

No. It is pronounced jyun peh i. Jyun is short, not as in June. No emphasis is placed on any syllables. There are in fact three sounds - ã˜ã‚…ã‚“ (jyun) 㺠(peh) ã„ (i)

Ahem. As an American I am fairly certain that is not how you say your name. It seems to me that "June-Pie" is the proper pronunciation.

 

 

 

As to the name of "God," did he name himself or did his followers name him? Did "God" give his name when he appeared to Moses? Did he ever say I am "God" and my name is....? Why would a "God" need a personal name anyhow? For his pension? To distinguish himself from the other "Gods?"

According to the story Moses was supposedly the very first person that he ever revealed his name to but the book of Genesis is full of people using the name YHWH as well as people having names based on that name as well. The funny (odd) thing about this whole incident is that Moses says to him ("god") "Well, how am I supposed to prove to everyone that you really sent me?" and so "god" replies (in a really messy section of the book) "Tell them I AM WHAT I AM sent you" then "I AM sent you" then "the god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob sent you" (he's covering all his bases now). The problem is that if no one knew his name what is the point of telling it to Moses and having Moses say to the people "<The Real Name of god> has sent me!" because no one would know what he was talking about. I mean people have been trying to convince the Jews that an alternate name for YHWH is jesus and they aren't biting yet some guy walks in out of the desert and claims to know the name of their god and they're all "Oh. Okay. Sounds legit."

 

mwc

[Jun]

Wasn't Moses a stonemason? And he came down from the mount with the commandments carved in stone?

[Tabula Rasa]

I have never taken a person's name, from another language, and mangled it into some kind of "americanese" English.

 

Commendable indeed. You would be the first American I've come across to even care. When I've tried to correct Americans who pronounce Japanese names wrong I'm often told, "I'm an American not a Jap and that's how I say it!"

 

This is somewhat off topic, but I've been trying to learn Japanese and have got quite a few books on learning it and some audio resources. Aside from finding a Japanese speaker to practice with, do you have some general purpose tips for learning?

[Jun]

I have never taken a person's name, from another language, and mangled it into some kind of "americanese" English.

 

Commendable indeed. You would be the first American I've come across to even care. When I've tried to correct Americans who pronounce Japanese names wrong I'm often told, "I'm an American not a Jap and that's how I say it!"

 

This is somewhat off topic, but I've been trying to learn Japanese and have got quite a few books on learning it and some audio resources. Aside from finding a Japanese speaker to practice with, do you have some general purpose tips for learning?

 

 

As with anything - practice. Practice speaking, listening and reading. Books and audio CD's will teach you basic grammar and sentence structure, and you can pick up some basic vocabulary - but nobody speaks the way that is taught in language books. I've not come across a decent colloquial Japanese language book yet. Leave your books on the shelf for when you need to refer to grammar and get out and practice! Watch the news in Japanese, watch Japanese dramas and soapies, listen to Japanese radio stations, and read through the newspapers.

 

How did I build my vocabulary all those years ago? I labelled all the objects in Japanese all around my apartment so that I'd see them all the time. For example - I'd see the fridge and on it would be the label 冷蔵庫 and I'd repeat it and create a few sentences using it. I'd label new things after I'd learned them.

 

Practice!　頑張ã£ã¦ã­ï¼

[mwc]

Wasn't Moses a stonemason? And he came down from the mount with the commandments carved in stone?

Moses wasn't an anything but the story flows roughly like this:

 

First he just grew up the adopted son of the pharaohs daughter (a "prince").

Then he killed a guy and ran away.

He married into a priests family (Rauel or Jethro) and tended his flocks.

He then led the people out of Egypt and around the desert.

The first tablets were pre-carved but he broke them out of anger.

He and the Levites sacrificed 3000 of their fellow Israelites to their "god" making them priests.

Then "god" said to carve tablets like the first two and bring them so he did.

 

So, "prince," murderer, shepherd, tour guide, "priest," or mason. You decide.

 

mwc

[Ouroboros]

As to the name of "God," did he name himself or did his followers name him? Did "God" give his name when he appeared to Moses? Did he ever say I am "God" and my name is....? Why would a "God" need a personal name anyhow? For his pension? To distinguish himself from the other "Gods?"

According to the story Moses was supposedly the very first person that he ever revealed his name to but the book of Genesis is full of people using the name YHWH as well as people having names based on that name as well. The funny (odd) thing about this whole incident is that Moses says to him ("god") "Well, how am I supposed to prove to everyone that you really sent me?" and so "god" replies (in a really messy section of the book) "Tell them I AM WHAT I AM sent you" then "I AM sent you" then "the god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob sent you" (he's covering all his bases now). The problem is that if no one knew his name what is the point of telling it to Moses and having Moses say to the people "<The Real Name of god> has sent me!" because no one would know what he was talking about. I mean people have been trying to convince the Jews that an alternate name for YHWH is jesus and they aren't biting yet some guy walks in out of the desert and claims to know the name of their god and they're all "Oh. Okay. Sounds legit."

You forgot the most crucial part in your argument. Abraham is several times referring to YHWH in the Bible, and he even gives a name to a place based on that name. Now it could be understood by the author just using the name YHWH and puts it in Abrahams mouth, but how can Abraham name a town with YHWH in it and the Bible claim that he did so, and yet he wasn't supposed to know that name? The best explanation I got so far is that it's a translation error... but then why don't people start to wonder what else has been translated wrong?

[mwc]

You forgot the most crucial part in your argument. Abraham is several times referring to YHWH in the Bible, and he even gives a name to a place based on that name.

I said the book of Genesis used the name a lot (not a direct quote...I forget what I said). Ignoring translators stuffing the name into some odd place the first use would be somewhere at the beginning (fine, I'll look). Here we go: "4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enosh; then began men to call upon the name of the LORD. (JPS)"

 

I've seen other translations that say that Enosh is the one who called on "god" making him the first priest (probably explaining the popularity of the Book of Enoch). It really doesn't matter though. Here we are with people that actually met this "god" IN PERSON (Did they know his name? We might assume so since things were supposedly so great) and yet their grandkids are starting up a cult to the guy that booted them all out of the garden. I suppose they wanted back in? For whatever reason they called on the name of YHWH according to the above verse.

 

I suppose the argument could be made that YHWH did not reveal his name to them but they got it somewhere else (grandma and grandpa? That damn talking snake was still on the loose I bet...What's it going to take? A flood?). If that's the criteria then perhaps there is a loophole. The name was "in the wild" but he, himself, did not put it there after the whole Adam and Eve thing? Nope. "15:7 And He said unto him: 'I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.' (JPS)" Looks like YHWH spills the beans to Abraham. Now, YHWH may not be his real name. Ba'al means "lord" and according to some things I have read no one except the initiated knew the true name of Ba'al (even when combined when the city/local name like "Ba'al Hadad" there was still the real, secret, name and we still have no clue what that might be if this is correct).

 

mwc