Antlerman Posted October 5, 2007 Posted October 5, 2007 Why do people turn to faith? What is faith for? Why does belief in God require it? Faith believes without reason in things that are not seen. But why? I would answer that faith by definition is reactionary. It's a reactionary response to anxiety about something. Faith is believing in something for the sake of finding comfort in the face of fear. In the case of religious faith, it's a reactionary response to an irrational fear of the unknowns of existence itself. It's a response to anxiety over the individual's confrontation with the great void. It's the basing of an entire belief system on imagined enemies: Death and Purposelessness. Faith and fear are bed fellows. Without fear there is no need for faith. Therefore the real question seems, is faith or acceptance the healthier way to live? Christians and everyone else are welcomed to share their own thoughts on the idea of faith.
Amanda Posted October 5, 2007 Posted October 5, 2007 Why do people turn to faith? What is faith for? Why does belief in God require it? Antlerman... maybe faith and hope go hand in hand? I suppose when things look gloom and doom, it is good to consider faith and hope that tomorrow will be a better day. Sometimes I've had to tell myself, "it's always the darkest before the dawn." Faith believes without reason in things that are not seen. But why? Well, of course no one should take EVERYTHING by blind faith... however, it could make sense in times of dispair, I suppose one does better with "if there's a will, there's a way," even when success has no reasons for it at the moment. Of course, we can see that some people have "blind faith" in something, certainly NOT life threatening, in the face of all rationality and reason against it. I would answer that faith by definition is reactionary. It's a reactionary response to anxiety about something. Faith is believing in something for the sake of finding comfort in the face of fear. In the case of religious faith, it's a reactionary response to an irrational fear of the unknowns of existence itself. It's a response to anxiety over the individual's confrontation with the great void. It's the basing of an entire belief system on imagined enemies: Death and Purposelessness. Faith and fear are bed fellows. Without fear there is no need for faith. Perhaps lots of fundies' blind faith is reactionary to the fear of eternal hell? Also, let's face it... many of these beliefs have been compounded as Truths by our culture as presuppositions that go unchallenged for many, many, many years. Yes, you're right... for someone to contest a basic foundation of one's life all at once... Without the fear of hell, or the need to feel 'special' in an elitist group... then I think the rest can come in reason with time. Heck, it's embarassing to say... yet you know, that I actually considered Noah's Ark could be true. Really didn't think about it much till I came here, except even my teacher in seminary said it wasn't true. Oh well, once I had the 'facts' presented and thought about it... I saw the light. Therefore the real question seems, is faith or acceptance the healthier way to live? Wouldn't you say it depended on the situation? Desperate times calls for desperate measures.
Vigile Posted October 5, 2007 Posted October 5, 2007 And of course there is the obvious. Faith is a fail safe established by the likes of Paul. It has two purposes. First, it avoids the sticky problem of having to provide any evidence for extraordinary claims. Second, it keeps adherents hemmed in giving them a false sense of reasurance and an excuse for lazy thinking. If a scientist asked an xian to just have faith, the xian would laugh in his face. If a telemarketer asked an xian to just have faith, the xian would laugh in his face. If a hair-brained idiot with a pointy hat and a handful of incense asks an xian to have faith, they can't reach for their checkbook quickly enough.
Antlerman Posted October 5, 2007 Author Posted October 5, 2007 Antlerman... maybe faith and hope go hand in hand? Yes this is also correct. A good way of stating this popped into my mind soon after I posted this topic this morning: Faith creates hope in the face of despair. The three go hand in hand. But faith is dependent on despair, and hope is dependent on faith. Let’s go with that for now. I’ll try to explain my thoughts as we continue. Faith believes without reason in things that are not seen. But why? Well, of course no one should take EVERYTHING by blind faith... however, it could make sense in times of dispair, I suppose one does better with "if there's a will, there's a way," even when success has no reasons for it at the moment. I think what I want to get at in all this is to look at religious faith in particular. It seems that religious faith takes what is otherwise a general human approach to life’s difficulties of assuming a more optimistic perspective (which thus directly affects one’s emotional state and subsequent motivation to make the best choices for continued success), and it attempts to offer a way to create hope in the face of ultimate despair. By ultimate despair I mean the face of one’s mortality and the impermanence of all existence and consequently meaning, or the value of existing. Religion offers hope based on faith which is a reactive response to the anxiety created by the perception of meaninglessness. The three go hand in hand: Faith is a reaction to despair, and in turn offers hope as the elixir of comfort. But is it really a comfort, or a merely a distraction? I’d argue it’s the latter. Of course, we can see that some people have "blind faith" in something, certainly NOT life threatening, in the face of all rationality and reason against it. A thought just occurred to me. I think the difference between a “faith†and “blind faith†is that blind faith does not look for evidence to support it. It gives up trying to find supporting evidence for it and just goes with belief for the sake of the perceived benefits it offers. It’s a true “leap of faithâ€. Perhaps lots of fundies' blind faith is reactionary to the fear of eternal hell? I say all belief of a religious nature is based on anxiety about existence. The idea of hell is really more a deeply neurotic anxiety surrounding speculations of ultimate doom. It certainly taps into those deeper anxieties and is a wonderful tool for those who wish to exploit it for controlling others' actions. Also, let's face it... many of these beliefs have been compounded as Truths by our culture as presuppositions that go unchallenged for many, many, many years. Yes, you're right... for someone to contest a basic foundation of one's life all at once... Very true. Myths become reality and shape how we perceive the world. This is why it is so difficult for Western-raised people to conceive of reality outside the terms of dualistic thought. Therefore the real question seems, is faith or acceptance the healthier way to live? Wouldn't you say it depended on the situation? Desperate times calls for desperate measures. This is true, but in terms of religious faith being a reaction to a more universal sense of despair, I would content that acceptance is healthier than faith in this case. Now I want to make a vital distinction. Acceptance is not resignation. It is not an acceptance of gloom and despair in this context. Acceptance as I’m using it is actually an embracing of the unchangeable as the ultimate reality. Rather than using faith to give hope to protect us from of feelings of despair, we eliminate despair altogether by facing meaninglessness with opened eyes. We don’t embrace despair, but rather look at what we fear that causes despair and embrace that as truth. There is no ultimate purpose to existence. We exist, and that’s it. Nothing more. Now we have one thing left: Choice. We can choose to delude ourselves further in the hope of avoiding our ultimate confrontation with nothing, or we can embrace our aloneness (and our connectedness to everything as part of that aloneness), and choose to see beauty instead of despair. I’ll say that again as it really defines it. We choose to see beauty instead of despair. That begins with acceptance, and then moves to choice. Nice to see you around again.
white_raven23 Posted October 6, 2007 Posted October 6, 2007 I think the best, and most honest description of hope I've seen so far, actually comes from the pages of a zombie book called World War Z. Yeah....I know....a horror fiction....but stay with me for a sec. In the book, a post-zombieapocalyptic film maker is discussing the role his movies played on the psychology of human refugees. I can't quote directly...but it was damn good. The film maker was talking about lies. A lie is a lot like fire, it can warm you on a cold day, or it can burn your house down. Most lies are of the latter variety, but some, the one's that warm the heart....those are called hope. I really liked that.
Amanda Posted October 6, 2007 Posted October 6, 2007 Always nice to see you Antlerman! Faith creates hope in the face of despair. The three go hand in hand. But faith is dependent on despair, and hope is dependent on faith. Let’s go with that for now. I’ll try to explain my thoughts as we continue. I like how you worded that... yet let me ask you this... If it seems to me to be impossible for me to make a 100 on a chemistry test, would that also be considered dispair? I guess so. "Belief" can be a positive motivator. Also, I am impressed with the healing results of a medication I took, which ended up being a placebo. Wow... what about those occurrences? Just curious... I think what I want to get at in all this is to look at religious faith in particular. It seems that religious faith takes what is otherwise a general human approach to life’s difficulties of assuming a more optimistic perspective (which thus directly affects one’s emotional state and subsequent motivation to make the best choices for continued success), and it attempts to offer a way to create hope in the face of ultimate despair. By ultimate despair I mean the face of one’s mortality and the impermanence of all existence and consequently meaning, or the value of existing. Pertaining to fundy mentality, even more than that! To think a miracle is just going to fall out of the sky puts the person as a victim. It steals their self empowerment. They abandon control of their own life. Quite frankly, I know their is no "proof" of life after death, however, I can't help but have this belief that I've had for some time now of inclinations towards reincarnation. Now please, let's NOT have a debate on that one... however, I am sometimes curious if my beliefs are based on inner desires or convinced of its possibilities. Anyway, I'm the only one that can ever know that. :wink: Religion offers hope based on faith which is a reactive response to the anxiety created by the perception of meaninglessness. The three go hand in hand: Faith is a reaction to despair, and in turn offers hope as the elixir of comfort. But is it really a comfort, or a merely a distraction? I’d argue it’s the latter. What do you mean by "perception of meaninglessness"? Are you saying their life here is meaningless if it is not a trial for a better world? Well, if they'd start attending a few good parties, go canoeing, and living life here and now... then maybe they wouldn't find it meaningless? A thought just occurred to me. I think the difference between a “faith†and “blind faith†is that blind faith does not look for evidence to support it. It gives up trying to find supporting evidence for it and just goes with belief for the sake of the perceived benefits it offers. It’s a true “leap of faithâ€. IMO, it is what creates the 'victim mentality'. They forfeit control of their life. I say all belief of a religious nature is based on anxiety about existence. Would that include ALL beliefs of a 'spiritual' nature? The idea of hell is really more a deeply neurotic anxiety surrounding speculations of ultimate doom. It certainly taps into those deeper anxieties and is a wonderful tool for those who wish to exploit it for controlling others' actions. We can all drink to that!
Amanda Posted October 6, 2007 Posted October 6, 2007 The film maker was talking about lies. A lie is a lot like fire, it can warm you on a cold day, or it can burn your house down. Most lies are of the latter variety, but some, the one's that warm the heart....those are called hope. I really liked that. White Raven, that is quite refreshing... as sometimes maybe we can lie to our self, and it ends up being true!
sonyaj68 Posted October 6, 2007 Posted October 6, 2007 Romans 10:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Faith" is information. Information is a "noun." Faith is a noun that tells us what we have. Believe, on the other hand, is a verb. Believe is what we do. Believe is acting upon our faith or our advance information.
Antlerman Posted October 6, 2007 Author Posted October 6, 2007 Romans 10:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.Faith" is information. Information is a "noun." Faith is a noun that tells us what we have. Believe, on the other hand, is a verb. Believe is what we do. Believe is acting upon our faith or our advance information. I'm not sure how you conclude that faith is information. I don't see that. Faith and belief are the same thing. If you are getting that from the verse you quoted, then I can't agree with that interpretation of it without you explaining it more clearly. When I read that verse I get this understanding, that faith is a response of the heart, one of inspiration that gives hope which occurs when someone hears words of promise with belief in their heart. This is consistent with my assesment of faith above. Can you show me how your understanding differs? To add something to my thoughts above to clarify further, in a linear line starting at the far left you have first Faith, then Hope, then Despair, and finally Fear on the far right end. Faith is the opposite of fear. Fear creates despair, and Faith creates hope. My contention is that by getting rid of fear, you get rid of the need for faith. Amanda, I'll post my reply to you tommorow when my mind is fresh. It's worth taking the time to dig deeper into the points you brought up and I want to do it justice. You've come far.
garrisonjj Posted October 6, 2007 Posted October 6, 2007 Romans 10: Why do so many "keep the faith?" They watch loved ones die from cancer after having prayed fervently for cures and of course nothing. Faith, like prayer is wishful thinking. My explanation is that after you have reasoned everything out and discover no gods, you still have to have irrational thoughts about "someone up there is watching and guiding my every move." Even if life sucks, its for a purpose. Thats faith. If this self delusion works for some, all the power to them. It no longer works for me.
mwc Posted October 6, 2007 Posted October 6, 2007 Romans 10:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.Faith" is information. Information is a "noun." Faith is a noun that tells us what we have. Believe, on the other hand, is a verb. Believe is what we do. Believe is acting upon our faith or our advance information. 12 And the Jew is not different from the Greek: for there is the same Lord of all, who is good to all who have hope in his name: 13 Because, Whoever will give worship to the name of the Lord will get salvation. 14 But how will they give worship to him in whom they have no faith? and how will they have faith in him of whom they have not had news? and how will they have news without a preacher? 15 And how will there be preachers if they are not sent? As it is said, How beautiful are the feet of those who give the glad news of good things. 16 But they have not all given ear to the good news. For Isaiah says, Lord, who has had faith in our word? 17 So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. Read this very carefully and Paul says "Trust what the preachers (ie. Paul) tell you." The chain is: hope -> worship -> salvation -> faith -> news -> preacher Or, the preacher gives the news which leads to faith which leads to salvation through worship for all that have hope. But ultimately hope, not faith, is the foundation the whole thing rests on. Not that it matters anyway because "Lord" here appears to be a reference to "god" and not "jesus" (as are most of the references but since "Lord" is used interchangeably for both it gets confusing). For the curious he quotes Isaiah 53:1 in verse 16 "1 Who would have had faith in the word which has come to our ears, and to whom had the arm of the Lord been unveiled?" mwc
Mythra Posted October 6, 2007 Posted October 6, 2007 To add something to my thoughts above to clarify further, in a linear line starting at the far left you have first Faith, then Hope, then Despair, and finally Fear on the far right end. Faith is the opposite of fear. Fear creates despair, and Faith creates hope. My contention is that by getting rid of fear, you get rid of the need for faith. Good stuff, Antlerman. But - once you get rid of fear, and get past despair - wouldn't there be at least one more place on the graph? On my graph, I'd have to add one more on the far right. Acceptance. Not really hopeless resignation, but peaceful acceptance of reality. I think those who are in this place are unassailable by the faith merchants.
Amanda Posted October 6, 2007 Posted October 6, 2007 The chain is: hope -> worship -> salvation -> faith -> news -> preacher Or, the preacher gives the news which leads to faith which leads to salvation through worship for all that have hope. But ultimately hope, not faith, is the foundation the whole thing rests on. Not that it matters anyway because "Lord" here appears to be a reference to "god" and not "jesus" (as are most of the references but since "Lord" is used interchangeably for both it gets confusing). MWC, IMO, if one really looks at what all of the NT says, it is much of what Atheism says today. It seems to deter the focus of the god out there somewhere, and to recognize the god within each of us. Ye too are gods, and jesus, our role model, who thought it not robbery to be equal to god, are some of the ideas promoted courageously for those times... and are for these times too. Perhaps the "hidden man of the heart", etc. is referencing a self actualized spot within us all. I like your model above, maybe I would adjust it a little bit. If we have hope > meditate/worship within, through that self actualized state > have faith in ourselves, what is in us > then we establish an internal locus of control and have salvation from these outside forces that seek to control us (hell) > continually gather news/facts/reason > then go teach others the same.
Antlerman Posted October 6, 2007 Author Posted October 6, 2007 To add something to my thoughts above to clarify further, in a linear line starting at the far left you have first Faith, then Hope, then Despair, and finally Fear on the far right end. Faith is the opposite of fear. Fear creates despair, and Faith creates hope. My contention is that by getting rid of fear, you get rid of the need for faith. Good stuff, Antlerman. But - once you get rid of fear, and get past despair - wouldn't there be at least one more place on the graph? On my graph, I'd have to add one more on the far right. Acceptance. Not really hopeless resignation, but peaceful acceptance of reality. I think those who are in this place are unassailable by the faith merchants. Good insights. Don’t kid yourself, you “do deep†perfectly well. Acceptance is the key to overcoming fear. I touched on this above in post #4 recognizing the same thing: Therefore the real question seems, is faith or acceptance the healthier way to live ? Wouldn't you say it depended on the situation? Desperate times calls for desperate measures. This is true, but in terms of religious faith being a reaction to a more universal sense of despair, I would content that acceptance is healthier than faith in this case. Now I want to make a vital distinction. Acceptance is not resignation. It is not an acceptance of gloom and despair in this context. Acceptance as I’m using it is actually an embracing of the unchangeable as the ultimate reality. Rather than using faith to give hope to protect us from of feelings of despair, we eliminate despair altogether by facing meaninglessness with opened eyes. We don’t embrace despair, but rather look at what we fear that causes despair and embrace that as truth. There is no ultimate purpose to existence. We exist, and that’s it. Nothing more. Now we have one thing left: Choice. We can choose to delude ourselves further in the hope of avoiding our ultimate confrontation with nothing, or we can embrace our aloneness (and our connectedness to everything as part of that aloneness), and choose to see beauty instead of despair. I’ll say that again as it really defines it. We choose to see beauty instead of despair. That begins with acceptance, and then moves to choice. I have some more thoughts on this I’m going to be fleshing out in the following days, so by all means keep with the thread. It’s something that I feel the need to sink my teeth into deeply right now, sort of like the focus on language from a while back. The question in my mind I see coming up on the horizon on this train of thought above is whether it is possible to not have fear at all, to totally overcome fear by will alone? Or is acceptance a tool to deal with innate fear just as faith is? I may be wrong in saying we can eliminate fear altogether, at least for the majority of humans. More on that later.
Ouroboros Posted October 6, 2007 Posted October 6, 2007 Romans 10:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.Faith" is information. Information is a "noun." Faith is a noun that tells us what we have. Believe, on the other hand, is a verb. Believe is what we do. Believe is acting upon our faith or our advance information. Our discussion really got me thinking... I think I know what belief really is. It's like the opinion you will make about a product based on advertising. The way commercials works is that they throw out statements like "new and better formula - now it also removes coffee stains" etc, and over time, hearing this again and again, you start subconsiously believing this. You think that a certain product is better than another, not because of facts or experience, but because you have been indoctrinated. Religious belief is that same way. You keep on feeding your mind with the sermons, bible verses and songs and then you close the loop with praying to these fantasies, and you mind gets trained in believing this is true, even though it's just a ritual to instill this belief. This is also the reason to why you have doubts sometimes. You mind is trying to fight this silly behavior and there are experience and reasoning in your mind that contradicts your belief. You notice that when bible verses say that you can ask God for anything in the name of Jesus, and you try it and it dosn't work, you have to amend your belief with excuses to why God doesn't do it - even though the Bible say he would. And so on it goes, the list gets longer with Bible verses that needs excuses and mental redaction. Wherever the verse doesn't fit reality, that verse is said to not exactly mean what it says, while other verses are kept literal. You belief is nothing but self-induced programming and brainwashing, based on a propaganda machine called religion. The only reason you stay in it, is because you love it. It fulfills emotional needs. So belief in itself isn't an emotion, but the reason to why you keep on fooling your mind to believe is emotional. It's a very clever system, and it has survived and is so successful, because it has evolved and survived. It thrives because the alternatives can't fulfill those emotional needs as well. It hurts to know the truth and you lose some perks you had in church, but when you do know the truth, there's no going back.
R. S. Martin Posted October 6, 2007 Posted October 6, 2007 Romans 10:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.Faith" is information. Information is a "noun." Faith is a noun that tells us what we have. Believe, on the other hand, is a verb. Believe is what we do. Believe is acting upon our faith or our advance information. Faith is a noun, but it is not information. Antlerman, I disagree very strongly with you that it equals belief. Faith equals trust, confidence, and is closely related to hope. Belief is more like opinion. We can believe our belief, Sonja. Believe is a verb and belief is a noun. Do you see the difference? However, just because believe is an action does not mean it is as simple as pressing a button. It is not! If it were, I would be the most devout Christian on earth. To believe something means that it makes sense. Can you believe that an ice cube will freeze in boiling water? No. It doesn't make sense. Likewise, the Plan of Salvation does not make sense to me; I cannot believe it. Do I want to believe it? I sure do! I would be reconciled to my family.
R. S. Martin Posted October 6, 2007 Posted October 6, 2007 Good stuff, Antlerman. But - once you get rid of fear, and get past despair - wouldn't there be at least one more place on the graph? On my graph, I'd have to add one more on the far right. Acceptance. Not really hopeless resignation, but peaceful acceptance of reality. I think those who are in this place are unassailable by the faith merchants. You're absolutely right, Mythra. Way to go! I love that--faith merchants. Unassailable. Peaceful acceptance of reality. No more wildly washing waves of emotion the faith merchants want to stir up. No overwhelming guilt. No overpowering joy. Just peace. Contentment. Life is okay the way things are. That, my friends, is faith--real faith. That is the faith that will get you through anything life can throw at you--with or without God. Faith is so much more than belief in a deity or the supernatural. The supernatural is nothing but terminology our ancestors used to designate concepts science has long since replaced. As science replaced the supernatural, religion developed. And now people are killed and ostracized for not believing the right things just because. That is not faith--that is crazy! Let's get back to the basics of pure and simple faith. Contentment. Peace.
Amanda Posted October 6, 2007 Posted October 6, 2007 I have some more thoughts on this I’m going to be fleshing out in the following days, so by all means keep with the thread. It’s something that I feel the need to sink my teeth into deeply right now, sort of like the focus on language from a while back. The question in my mind I see coming up on the horizon on this train of thought above is whether it is possible to not have fear at all, to totally overcome fear by will alone? Or is acceptance a tool to deal with innate fear just as faith is? I may be wrong in saying we can eliminate fear altogether, at least for the majority of humans. More on that later. Antlerman, I'll be very interested in what you have to say. Speaking of language, let's look at "fear". Where does "fear" end and "respect" begin? I will admit I am afraid of heights, however, on the side of a cliff there is some point where someone has to have respect for the laws of gravity. Where does the fear of death end and respect for a life threatening situation begin? I'm beginning to think that in the more modern evolution of "Christian" religion, it probably promoted that when we die, and fight for the "Christian will of God", we will go to heaven into a glorious place. Perhaps kind of like the finatical Muslims today? Just a thought... You belief is nothing but self-induced programming and brainwashing, based on a propaganda machine called religion. The only reason you stay in it, is because you love it. It fulfills emotional needs. So belief in itself isn't an emotion, but the reason to why you keep on fooling your mind to believe is emotional. HanSolo, maybe not so self induced? IMO, people believe that way mostly because of the culture one is raised, and these beliefs basically go unchallenged for generations. If one were raised in India, it would be a different cultural religion... of course. Such cultural widespread acceptance through so many generations provides a lot of support for continuing what becomes a comfortable belief, rather it is valid or not. It seems that many who were raised here as "Christians" can immediately judge another religion, with critical thinking that they wouldn't consider using on their own cultural "Christianity" norms.
R. S. Martin Posted October 6, 2007 Posted October 6, 2007 Romans 10:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.Faith" is information. Information is a "noun." Faith is a noun that tells us what we have. Believe, on the other hand, is a verb. Believe is what we do. Believe is acting upon our faith or our advance information. Sonya, I tried finding that verse with the computer and had problems. The reference is wrong. It's verse 17.
Antlerman Posted October 6, 2007 Author Posted October 6, 2007 Faith creates hope in the face of despair. The three go hand in hand. But faith is dependent on despair, and hope is dependent on faith. Let’s go with that for now. I’ll try to explain my thoughts as we continue. I like how you worded that... yet let me ask you this... If it seems to me to be impossible for me to make a 100 on a chemistry test, would that also be considered dispair? I guess so. Not in the sense I’m talking about. Despair is anxiety and near panic in the face of perceived hopelessness. When I use the word despair in the context of these discussions, I’m focused more philosophically on the state of mind of humanity in the face of ultimate meaninglessness to existence. Fear of this realization is what drives humanity towards the unwelcome response of despair, and it is what drives us toward finding meaning through various means to avoid it. “Faith†is a reactionary response to Despair in that it creates a means for us to find meaning where none inherently exists! We create God. We create meaning. We create God in the image of our desires for purpose and meaning. In this sense, God is our hope. God is the symbol of our hopes, but not the only one, nor necessarily the best Idea in all cases. I can’t count how many times I’ve heard people who hear I don’t believe in a god make some comment like, “Then what’s the point of living?†It’s usually their first instinctual response. You see? It’s there. I contend that it’s there at the door of every living human who has any awareness of their own mortality. Everyone senses Despair at the door and are afraid to peer into the void of non-existence, into the face of our utter aloneness. But why is that? Why do we fear the Dark, so to speak? We don’t know what’s there, nor that it may even be harmful to us. But we assume it on some innate level that the unknown is potentially dangerous. Why? The answer would seem to be that it’s our instinctual response to living in any shared environment. We need to be constantly aware of potential threats to ourselves from predators. Ever watch that cute little squirrel playing happily around in your back yard? Despite those glimmers of dancing around in the playground of nature, lurks an ever vigilant consciousness to him potentially being ripped apart by some predator. The same thing is bred right into our genes. Evolutionists call this our “lizard brainâ€, that part of our early brain in evolution that was concerned with survival – attacking, fleeing, eating, and mating. We gaze up at the night sky of our own existence with wonder and awe, yet deep within our psyche lurks the uneasy sense of what lays in wait behind the veil of the night. We sense our nakedness before existence. We are aware of our own ends. We are all aware of our own deaths coming long before any predator even steps foot within our field of vision. We live with Anxiety. Just like the little squirrel or playful bunny rabbit, except because of our big brains, we reason on top of that response and “imagineâ€. We imagine dreads, and we image hopes to counter them. But it’s dread that is cause for hopes to be imagined. I’ll flesh this out more as we keep discussing this. "Belief" can be a positive motivator. Also, I am impressed with the healing results of a medication I took, which ended up being a placebo. Wow... what about those occurrences? Just curious... Yes absolutely. Belief is powerful. Belief can actually alter the real world into its own image at times. This is why I will usually say that God is real, because people make him alive by believing in him. “He†then can actually influence events in this world. As a negative example just for the sake of illustration, “God†killed 1000 people using believers with bombs strapped to the chests over the last several months. Belief is powerful, and very dangerous too. But to my basic point, is belief or faith the best response, or is acceptance and conscious choice the best response? I think what I want to get at in all this is to look at religious faith in particular. It seems that religious faith takes what is otherwise a general human approach to life’s difficulties of assuming a more optimistic perspective (which thus directly affects one’s emotional state and subsequent motivation to make the best choices for continued success), and it attempts to offer a way to create hope in the face of ultimate despair. By ultimate despair I mean the face of one’s mortality and the impermanence of all existence and consequently meaning, or the value of existing. Pertaining to fundy mentality, even more than that! To think a miracle is just going to fall out of the sky puts the person as a victim. It steals their self empowerment. They abandon control of their own life. It’s just an extension of the basic reactionary nature of faith. Humans are neurotic by nature. It underlies our existence. Our brains are too big for our own good it seems. We process that Lizard Brain information in ways that leads us to all sorts of unhealthy ends. Hell, when it comes to religion as one of those ends, our big brains which are our greatest tool, may be what is also the tool of our own deaths. Certainly we see it killing us all the time. Why the bombers? Is that for food, or an idea? Our reasoning on top of that Lizard Brain seems to almost be an inherent flaw in the design. So Faith is a result of that inherent neurosis of our minds. Faith is the result of being neurotic. Religious fundamentalism is an even more exaggerated extension of that neuroticism. Wouldn’t you classify their beliefs as quite neurotic? To strap a bomb on one’s chest and blow yourself up for an idea is the ultimate in a break from nature. The design of our minds is flawed. Our greatest tool, is also our own worst enemy. Ultimate salvation for humanity will be a biological change in how our brain works. This comes back to what I said about how we can never eliminate fear, only work to deal with it the most effective way possible. To me, it’s not by being reactionary to that anxiety and creating imagined alternative hopes, but by acceptance of what simply "is" and choosing to see beauty instead of despair. I’m still working on these thoughts. Religion offers hope based on faith which is a reactive response to the anxiety created by the perception of meaninglessness. The three go hand in hand: Faith is a reaction to despair, and in turn offers hope as the elixir of comfort. But is it really a comfort, or a merely a distraction? I’d argue it’s the latter. What do you mean by "perception of meaninglessness"? Are you saying their life here is meaningless if it is not a trial for a better world? Well, if they'd start attending a few good parties, go canoeing, and living life here and now... then maybe they wouldn't find it meaningless? I know these ideas may be new in some regards. What I mean is not so much what someone may say about their personal life surrounding jobs, friends, family, loves, interests, and generally happiness. As I’ve mentioned above it’s about awareness of our existence as a whole. Not just their own existence, but the existence of everything. Why does it exist? Why do I? Is there purpose? Is there meaning? What happens when I’m gone? These sorts of anxieties. We can’t see an answer directly, so we have to imagine one to avoid concluding there is NO answer. I contend, the best solution to this angst is to embrace that answers do not exist. “The truth is there is no truth; the answer is there is no answerâ€. No faith is necessary, just acceptance and the choice to live a happy existence instead of one running from the predator into the doors of an imagined hope. Is it possible to be happy without hope? I would say yes. Hope is not needed when you choose happiness. We create our own happiness. It doesn’t come from a promise of a better tomorrow. That’s a mistake many turn to in their flight from despair. I say all belief of a religious nature is based on anxiety about existence. Would that include ALL beliefs of a 'spiritual' nature? What is spiritual? I consider myself spiritual. But it has nothing to do with belief in mythical beings or supernatural realms. I consider the pleasure of art to be a spiritual thing. I find life inspiring and full of beauty. I feel that in my heart on a permeating level, and that is what I call spiritual, despite it being a borrowed term from a religious context. Many people use that term in non-religious contexts. (I’ll even use the word God to describe many things in nature too, but it’s the poetic use to me). What I'm saying is that any system of promised hopes are based on anxiety. How deep, dangerous, or dysfunctional any of those may go is what is the concern. I say we may not need to go there at all.
mwc Posted October 6, 2007 Posted October 6, 2007 MWC, IMO, if one really looks at what all of the NT says, it is much of what Atheism says today. It seems to deter the focus of the god out there somewhere, and to recognize the god within each of us. Ye too are gods, and jesus, our role model, who thought it not robbery to be equal to god, are some of the ideas promoted courageously for those times... and are for these times too. Perhaps the "hidden man of the heart", etc. is referencing a self actualized spot within us all. In many senses the early xians were having the same discussions that atheists are having today (they were considered atheists by many). I like your model above, maybe I would adjust it a little bit. If we have hope > meditate/worship within, through that self actualized state > have faith in ourselves, what is in us > then we establish an internal locus of control and have salvation from these outside forces that seek to control us (hell) > continually gather news/facts/reason > then go teach others the same. It's not my model. It's Paul's model from the verses I quoted. I just simplified it. Paul, on the other hand, seemed to be doing his own interpretation on the OT which wasn't an uncommon occurance in those days. This example from the DSS: 1. And God said to Habakkuk to write the things to come2. upon the last generation but he did not reveal to him the close of the end time. 3. And when he says: so that the one running may read it. (verse 2:2) 4. Peshru about the Moreh Tsedek who makes known to 5. all the secrets in the words of his servants the prophets. Because he will yet have vision(part of 2:3) 6. for a season and shorten the end (time) and he will not lie.(2:3) 7. Pesher about his lengthening the "end time" and that which remains concerning all 8. that which the prophets spoke because God secretly acts to remove the infection. 9. If he delays, wait for it, it will surely come and not be (part of 2:3) 10. late. (part of 2:3) Pesher about the "men of truth" 11. who are practicing the Torah who do not slack their hand from serving 12. the truth but continue to raise up to them the end time because 13. all our hope is that he will bring the establishment according to the Statutes 14. to them as in their secret stock pile. Behold his exalted (soul) is not straight (part of 2:3) 15. (soul in lacuna) ..... Peshru that which also they multiply to them 16. .... ... their land in judgement .... This basically says that Habakkuk didn't understand what he was told to write but a later "teacher of righteousness" (Moreh Tsedek) would come along and make those secrets clear when the time was right. Now look at what Paul says again and compare to the above (since I'm not saying Paul was associated with the DSS sect but simply comparing the mindset). He casts himself in the "teacher" position. He is the one that has understanding of these things written by the "prophets" that even they didn't know. Since the "end times" were upon the earth people like Paul were now there to reveal these secrets. Pesher and peshru basically just mean interpret/explain and "they interpret/explain." So people need to have faith that Paul (the "teacher") is passing along a proper interpretation of the hidden secrets contained within the prophecies in the name of "god." If they do then they may obtain eternal life through the "son" of "god" that is, not jesus, but the ministry or church itself. The "christ" is the church itself. It's a metaphor that Paul uses. mwc
Ouroboros Posted October 6, 2007 Posted October 6, 2007 Faith is a noun, but it is not information. Antlerman, I disagree very strongly with you that it equals belief. Faith equals trust, confidence, and is closely related to hope. Belief is more like opinion. We can believe our belief, Sonja. Believe is a verb and belief is a noun. Do you see the difference? I think I agree with you here Ruby. Faith is more about the trust in something or someone, which is in turn based on the belief. Faith is kind of the step after belief. First someone believe, then you start having trust in the system (dogma, theology etc) which is a sign of faith in the religion. However, just because believe is an action does not mean it is as simple as pressing a button. It is not! If it were, I would be the most devout Christian on earth. To believe something means that it makes sense. Can you believe that an ice cube will freeze in boiling water? No. It doesn't make sense. Likewise, the Plan of Salvation does not make sense to me; I cannot believe it. Do I want to believe it? I sure do! I would be reconciled to my family. I'm not sure I totally agree on that belief has to make sense though. Scientologists are a perfect example of believers in wacky things that don't make sense. I think belief is more of an opinion as you said, and it's built on propaganda and indoctrination through constant bombardment of fantasy ideas, or it can also be based on fear, emotions and sometimes even social and cultural influence and pressure, like kids who inherit their religion from their parents without even knowing what it's about. HanSolo, maybe not so self induced? IMO, people believe that way mostly because of the culture one is raised, and these beliefs basically go unchallenged for generations. If one were raised in India, it would be a different cultural religion... of course. Such cultural widespread acceptance through so many generations provides a lot of support for continuing what becomes a comfortable belief, rather it is valid or not. It seems that many who were raised here as "Christians" can immediately judge another religion, with critical thinking that they wouldn't consider using on their own cultural "Christianity" norms. Yes, you're right. Originally people will have some kind of influence or external reason to why they start believing. It can be that they get the "information" from a parent or such or someone they trust. But later on, a grownup who still believes, do so because they have an internal "engine" that keeps it alive. This "engine" is mostly motivated by fear (fear of losing their pastor position, peer, friendship, place in heaven etc) or other emotions like love (they love the idea of salvation and eternal life etc) or maybe they do it out of duty. But basically, the continuation of the belief is usually strongly self-induced, unless they're under heavy control of a cult leader or such, but a normal person have no reason to dig deeper into fantasy unless they have a personal interest and gain in it. So my earlier statement was more about how people continue to believe rather than how they started.
Antlerman Posted October 6, 2007 Author Posted October 6, 2007 Faith is a noun, but it is not information. Antlerman, I disagree very strongly with you that it equals belief. Faith equals trust, confidence, and is closely related to hope. Belief is more like opinion. We can believe our belief, Sonja. Believe is a verb and belief is a noun. Do you see the difference? I think I agree with you here Ruby. Faith is more about the trust in something or someone, which is in turn based on the belief. Faith is kind of the step after belief. First someone believe, then you start having trust in the system (dogma, theology etc) which is a sign of faith in the religion. I don't want to get this distracted onto an argument of purist uses of words. Maybe we'll have to tigtly define word use here if the meaning can't be gleaned from the context very easily and causes some difficulting of understanding. Faith versus belief, generally speaking are pretty broad and at times interchangable, at least from my experience hearing them used in culture. It really depends on the context to express what is being meant. As this example multiple definitions from dictionary.com: Faith 1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability. 2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact. 3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims. 4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty. 5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith. 6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith. 7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles. 8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved. —Idiom9. in faith, in truth; indeed: In faith, he is a fine lad. ------------------------------------ Belief 1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat. 2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief. 3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents. 4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief. When it comes to language use in terms this closely releated, the best way to understand is via the context. There are no single definitions are words in the real world, so unless it's being completely misapplied (which faith and belief are pretty darned close in usage in culture), then it's better to not make an issue of 'very strong disagreement' over something like this. There are far more important things to take note of than that.
Antlerman Posted October 6, 2007 Author Posted October 6, 2007 Sorry. It wasn't my intention to mess it up. That's fine. I just knee jerked to seeing someone saying they "very strongly disagree" with me over something like this. It's hardly a violation of lanuage. I guess I don't expect to be called out on something like that.
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