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Faith Versus Opinion


R. S. Martin

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I brought this over from the Lion's Den so as not to further derail Antlerman's thread To All Christians: What Is Faith For?

 

Faith is a noun, but it is not information. Antlerman, I disagree very strongly with you that it equals belief. Faith equals trust, confidence, and is closely related to hope. Belief is more like opinion. We can believe our belief, Sonja. Believe is a verb and belief is a noun. Do you see the difference?

 

I think I agree with you here Ruby. Faith is more about the trust in something or someone, which is in turn based on the belief. Faith is kind of the step after belief. First someone believe, then you start having trust in the system (dogma, theology etc) which is a sign of faith in the religion.

 

Hans, you're from Sweden, right? What is the Swedish word for faith? The German word my people use is the same as the word for trust or believe (noun form as in I believe you; NOT as in it is my belief that....). They seem to be interchangeable. An unwritten dialect form of Glauben.

 

However, just because believe is an action does not mean it is as simple as pressing a button. It is not! If it were, I would be the most devout Christian on earth. To believe something means that it makes sense. Can you believe that an ice cube will freeze in boiling water? No. It doesn't make sense. Likewise, the Plan of Salvation does not make sense to me; I cannot believe it. Do I want to believe it? I sure do! I would be reconciled to my family.

 

I'm not sure I totally agree on that belief has to make sense though. Scientologists are a perfect example of believers in wacky things that don't make sense. I think belief is more of an opinion as you said, and it's built on propaganda and indoctrination through constant bombardment of fantasy ideas, or it can also be based on fear, emotions and sometimes even social and cultural influence and pressure, like kids who inherit their religion from their parents without even knowing what it's about.

 

I'm making a difference between belief and believe. For example: "It is my belief that it is best not to believe everything one hears." "I believe his beliefs differ sharply from mine." Perhaps I should have put in the clause that when I say "I believe" I mean that it makes sense to my brain.

 

In ordinary life, when people say "I believe" they normally mean it makes sense to them. It seems some people make an exception for religion. I don't. I think it is important to draw the line somewhere between truth and falsehood. The Bible itself is very strong on differentiating between true and false teaching. How can anyone do this if they cannot determine truth independently from an authority?

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The Swedish word for faith? Hmm... I have to try to remember... Tro[/b], and if I remember right it's the same word for belief and faith. It means something more along the line of "conviction" or "belief". It would be used in a sentence like "I believe in you" or "I think it is like this..." or "I have faith in you". It would be the same word for "I believe in you" - Jag tror på dig, or "it is my belief that..." - "jag tror att..."

 

When it comes to if "belief" is something that makes to your brain, okay, I can agree on that. It makes more sense. "Belief" is something that someone has accepted as a plausible and sensible in some way. My comment was more that "belief" doesn't necessarily make sense to everyone else around the believer, and maybe your statement was just a bit generic and I read into it the wider interpretation, i.e. a belief doesn't necessarily have to be rational or physical possible or even explainable by science.

 

I think "belief" is somewhat interchangable with the word "opinion" as you had in you OP. It's an opinion based on very little evidence.

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Here's the Greek for faith:

 

πίστις (pistis, 4102), -εως, ἡ, (πείθω [q. v.]), fr. [Hes., Theogn., Pind.], Aeschyl., Hdt. down; Sept. for ×ֱמוּנָה, several times for ×ֱמֶת and ×ֲמָנָה; faith; i. e.

 

1. conviction of the truth of anything, belief, (Plat., Polyb., Joseph., Plut.; θαυμάσια καὶ μείζω πίστεως, Diod. 1, 86); in the Î. Τ. of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervor born of faith and conjoined with it: Heb. xi. 1 (where πίστις is called á¼Î»Ï€Î¹Î¶Î¿Î¼Î­Î½Ï‰Î½ ὑπόστασις, Ï€Ïαγμάτων ἔλεγχος οὠβλεπομένων); opp. to εἶδος, 2 Co. v. 7; joined with ἀγάπη and á¼Î»Ï€Î¯Ï‚, 1 Co. xiii. 13.

 

a. when it relates to God, πίστις is the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ: Heb. xi. 6; xii. 2; xiii. 7; πίστις á¼Ï€á½¶ θεόν, Heb. vi. 1; ἡ πίστις ὑμῶν ἡ Ï€Ïὸς τὸν θεόν, by which ye turned to God, 1 Th. i. 8; τὴν Ï€. ὑμῶν κ. á¼Î»Ï€Î¯Î´Î± εἰς θεόν, directed unto God, 1 Pet. i. 21; with a gen. of the object [faith in] (τῶν θεῶν, Eur. Med. 414; τοῦ θεοῦ, Joseph. c. Ap. 2, 16, 5; cf. Grimm, Exgt. Hdbch. on Sap. vi. 17 sq. p. 132; [cf. Meyer on Ro. iii. 22; also Mey., Ellic., Bp. Lghtft. on Col. as below; W. 186 (175)]): ἡ Ï€. τῆς á¼Î½ÎµÏγείας τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ á¼Î³ÎµÎ¯Ïαντος αá½Ï„ὸν (Christ) á¼Îº τῶν νεκÏῶν, Col. ii. 12; διὰ πίστεως, by the help of faith, Heb. xi. 33, 39; κατὰ πίστιν, i. q. πιστεÏοντες, Heb. xi. 13; πίστει, dat. of means or of mode by faith or by believing, prompted, actuated, by faith, Heb. xi. 3 sq. 7-9, 17, 20-24, 27-29, 31; dat. of cause, because of faith, Heb. xi. 5, 11, 30.

 

b. in reference to Christ, it denotes a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God (on this see more at length in πιστεÏω, 1 b. γ.);

 

α. univ.: w. gen. of the object (see above, in a.), Ἰησοῦ ΧÏιστοῦ, Ro. iii. 22; Gal. ii. 16; iii. 22; Eph. iii. 12; Ἰησοῦ, Rev. xiv. 12; ΧÏίστοῦ, Phil. iii. 9; τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ, Gal. ii. 20; τοῦ κυÏίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ ΧÏιστοῦ, Jas. ii. 1; μοῦ (i. e. in Christ), Rev. ii. 13, (certainly we must reject the interpretation, faith in God of which Jesus Christ is the author, advocated by Van Hengel, Ep. ad Rom. i. p. 314 sqq., and H. P. Berlage, Disquisitio de formulae Paulinae πίστις Ἰησοῦ ΧÏιστοῦ significatione. Lugd. Bat. 1856); τοῦ εá½Î±Î³Î³ÎµÎ»Î¯Î¿Ï…, Phil. i. 27; ἀληθείας, 2 Th. ii. 13. with Prepositions: εἰς (toward [cf. εἰς, B. II. 2 a.]) τὸν κÏÏιον ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦν, Acts xx. 21; εἰς ΧÏιστόν, Acts xxiv. 24; xxvi. 18; ἡ εἰς ΧÏιστὸν πίστις ὑμῶν, Col. ii. 5; [πίστιν ἔχειν εἰς á¼Î¼Î­, Mk. ix. 42 Tr mrg.]; Ï€Ïὸς τὸν κÏÏ. Philem. 5 [L Tr WH εἰς] ([see Ï€Ïός, Ι. 1 c.; cf. Bp. Lghtft. ad loc.]; unless here we prefer to render πίστιν fidelity [see 2, below]; cf. Meyer ad loc. and W. § 50, 2); Ï€. ἡ á¼Î½ ΧÏ. Ἰησοῦ, reposed in Christ Jesus, 1 Tim. iii. 13; 2 Tim. iii. 15; ἡ Ï€. ὑμῶν á¼Î½ ΧÏ. Ἰης. Col. i. 4; ἡ κατά τινα (see κατά, II. 1 e.) πίστις á¼Î½ Ï„á¿· κυÏίῳ, Eph. i. 15; á¼Î½ Ï„á¿· αἵματι αá½Ï„οῦ, Ro. iii. 25 [yet cf. Meyer]. πίοτις [cf. W. 120 (114)] and ἡ πίστις simply: Lk. xviii. 8; Acts xiii. 8; xiv. 22, 27; xv. 9; xvii. 31; Ro. [iii. 27 (on which see νόμος, 3)], 31; iv. 14; v. 2 [L Tr WH br. τῇ πίστει]; ix. 32; x. 8, 17; xii. 3, 6; 1 Co. [xii. 9 (here of a charism)]; xvi. 13; 2 Co. iv. 13; [viii. 7]; x. 15; Gal. iii. 14, 23, 25 sq.; v. 5; vi. 10; Eph. ii. 8; iii. 17; iv. 5; vi. 16; 2 Th. i. 4; 1 Tim. i. 2, 4 (on the latter pass. see οἰκονομία), 19; ii. 7 (on which see ἀλήθεια, I. 2 c.); iii. 9; iv. 1, 6; v. 8; vi. 10, 12, 21; 2 Tim. i. 5; ii. 18; iii. 8, 10; iv. 7; Tit. i. 1, 4, 13; ii. 2; iii. 15; Jas. ii. 5; 1 Pet. i. 5; 2 Pet. i. 1, 5. with a gen. of the subject: Lk. xxii. 32; Ro. i. 8, 12; 1 Co. ii. 5; xv. 14, 17; 2 Co. i. 24; Phil. i. 25; ii. 17; 1 Th. iii. 2, 5-7, 10; 2 Th. i. 3; iii. 2; Philem. 6; Jas. i. 3; 1 Pet. i. 7. 9 [here WH om. gen.]; 1 Jn. v. 4; Rev. xiii. 10; πλήÏης πίστεως κ. πνεÏματος, Acts vi. 5; πνεÏματος κ·. πίστεως, Acts xi. 24; πίστεως κ. δυνάμεως, Acts vi. 8 Rec.; τῇ πίστει ἑστηκέναι, Ro. xi. 20; 2 Co. i. 24; á¼Î½ τῇ πίστει στήκειν, 1 Co. xvi. 13; εἶναι, 2 Co. xiii. 5; μένειν, 1 Tim. ii. 15; á¼Î¼Î¼Î­Î½ÎµÎ¹Î½ τῇ Ï€. Acts xiv. 22; á¼Ï€Î¹Î¼Î­Î½ÎµÎ¹Î½, Col. i. 23; στεÏεὸς τῇ Ï€. 1 Pet. v. 9; στεÏεοῦμαι τῇ Ï€. Acts xvi. 5; βεβαιοῦμαι á¼Î½ [L Τ Tr WH om. á¼Î½] τῇ Ï€. Col ii. 7. Since faith is a power that seizes upon the soul, one who yields himself to it is said ὑπακοÏειν τῇ πίστει Acts vi. 7; hence ὑπακοὴ τῆς πίστεως, obedience rendered to faith [W. 186 (175)], Ro. i. 5; xvi. 26; á½ á¼Îº πίστεως sc. ὤν, depending on faith, i. q. ὠπιστεÏων [see á¼Îº, II. 7], Ro. iii. 26; plur., Gal. iii. 7, 9; á½ á¼Îº πίστεως ἈβÏαάμ, he who has the same faith as Abraham, Ro. iv. 16; á¼Îº πίστεως εἶναι, to be related, akin to, faith [cf. á¼Îº, u. s.], Gal. iii. 12. δίκαιος á¼Îº πίστεως, Ro. i. 17; Gal. iii. 11; δικαιοσÏνη ἡ á¼Îº πίστ. Ro. ix. 30; ἡ á¼Îº πίστ. δικ. Ro. x. 6; δικαιοσ. á¼Îº πίστεως εἰς πίστιν, springing from faith (and availing) to (arouse) faith (in those who as yet have it not), Ro. i. 17; δικαιοσÏνη ἡ διὰ πίστεως ΧÏιστοῦ,... ἡ á¼Îº θεοῦ δικ. á¼Ï€á½¶ τῇ πίοτει, Phil. iii. 9; pass. δικαιοῦσθαι πίστει, Ro. iii. 28; δικαιοῦν τινα διὰ πίστεως ΧÏιστοῦ, Gal. ii. 16; διὰ. Ï„. πίστεως, Ro. iii. 30; δικ. τινα á¼Îº πίστεως, ibid.; Gal. iii. 8; pass., Ro. v. 1; Gal. iii. 24; εá½Î±Î³Î³ÎµÎ»Î¯Î¶Î¿Î¼Î±Î¹ τὴν πίστιν, to proclaim the glad tidings of faith in Christ, Gal. i. 23; ἀκοὴ πίστεως, instruction concerning the necessity of faith [see ἀκοή, 3 a.], Gal. iii. 2, 5; ἡ πίστις is joined with ἡ ἀγάπη: 1 Th. iii. 6; v. 8; 1 Tim. i. 14; ii. 15; iv. 12; vi. 11; 2 Tim. ii. 22; with a subj. gen. Rev. ii. 19; πίστις δι᾽ ἀγάπης á¼Î½ÎµÏγουμένη, Gal. v. 6; ἀγάπη μετὰ πίστεως, Eph. vi. 23; ἀγάπη á¼Îº πίστεως ἀνυπoκÏίτου, 1 Tim. i. 5; πίστις καὶ ἀγάπη ἡ á¼Î½ ΧÏιστῷ Ἰησοῦ, 2 Tim. i. 13; φιλεῖν τινα á¼Î½ πίστει, Tit. iii. 15 (where see De Wette); á¼”Ïγον πίστεως (cf. á¼”Ïγον, 3 p. 248b near bot.), 1 Th. i. 3; 2 Th. i. 11.

 

β. in an ethical sense, persuasion or conviction (which springs from faith in Christ as the sole author of salvation; cf. πιστεÏω, 1 b. γ. fin.) concerning things lawful for a Christian: Ro. xiv. 1, 23; πίστιν ἔχειν, ibid. 22.

 

c. univ. the religious belief of Christians;

α. subjectively: Eph. iv. 13, where cf. Meyer; in the sense of a mere acknowledgment of divine things and of the claims of Christianity, Jas. ii. 14, 17 sq. 20, 22, 24, 26.

β. objectively, the substance of Christian faith or what is believed by Christians: ἡ παÏαδοθεῖσα Ï€. Jude 3; ἡ á¼Î³Î¹Ï‰Ï„άτη ὑμῶν πίστις, ib. 20. There are some who think this meaning of the word is to be recognized also in 1 Tim. i. 4, 19; ii. 7; iii. 9; iv. 1, 6; v. 8; vi. 10, 21, (cf. Pfleiderer, Paulinismus p. 468 [Eng. trans. ii. p. 200]); but Weiss (Bibl. Theol. d. Î. Τ. § 107 a. note) correctly objects, “πίστις is rather the form in which the truth (as the substance of right doctrine) is subjectively appropriatedâ€; [cf. Meyer on Ro. i. 5 (and Prof. Dwight's additional note); Ellicott on Gal. i. 23; Bp. Lghtft. on Gal. p. 157].

 

d. with the predominant idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same: Mt. viii. 10; xv. 28; Lk. vii. 9, 50; xvii. 5; Heb. ix. 28 Lchm. ed. ster.; x. 22; Jas. i. 6; with a gen. of the subject: Mt. ix. 2, 22, 29; xv. 28; Mk. ii. 5; v. 34; x. 52; [Lk. v. 20]; viii. 25, 48; xvii. 19; xviii. 42; w. a gen. of the object in which trust is placed: τοῦ ὀνόματος αá½Ï„οῦ, Acts iii. 16; πίστιν ἔχειν, [Mt. xvii. 20]; xxi. 21; Mk. iv. 40; Lk. xvii. 6; πᾶσαν τὴν πίστιν, (“all the faith†that can be thought of), 1 Co. xiii. 2; ἔχειν πίστιν θεοῦ, to trust in God, Mk. xi. 22; ἔχειν πίστιν τοῦ σωθῆναι, to be healed (see Fritzsche on Mt. p. 843 sq.; [cf. W. § 44, 4 a.; B. 268 (230)]), Acts xiv. 9; ἡ δι᾽ αá½Ï„οῦ Ï€., awakened through him, Acts iii. 16; εá½Ï‡á½´ τῆς πίστεως, that proceeds from faith, Jas. v. 15; of trust in the promises of God, Ro. iv. 9, 16,19 sq.; Heb. iv. 2; vi. 12; x. 38 sq.; w. a gen. of the subject, Ro. iv. 5, 12; πίστις á¼Ï€á½¶ θεόν, faith which relies on God who grants the forgiveness of sins to the penitent [see á¼Ï€Î¯, C. I. 2 g. α.], Heb. vi. 1; δικαιοσÏνη τῆς πίστεως [cf. W. 186 (175)], Ro. iv. 11, 13; ἡ κατὰ πίστιν δικαιοσÏνη, Heb. xi. 7.

 

2. fidelity, faithfulness, i. e. the character of one who can be relied on: Mt. xxiii. 23; Gal. v. 22; Philem. 5 (? see above in b. α.); Tit. ii. 10. of one who keeps his promises: ἡ πίστις τοῦ θεοῦ, subj. gen., Ro. iii. 3. objectively, plighted faith (often so in Attic writ. fr. Aeschyl. down): ἀθετεῖν (see ἀθετέω, a.) τὴν πίστιν, 1 Tim. v. 12. Cf. especially Koolhaas, Diss. philol. I. et II. de vario usu et constructione vocum πίστις, πιστός et πιστεÏειν in Î. Τ. (Traj. ad Rhen. 1733, 4to.); Dav. Schulz, Was heisst Glauben, etc. (Leipz. 1830), p. 62 sqq.; Rückert, Com. üb. d. Röm., 2d ed., i. p. 51 sqq.; Lutz, Bibl. Dogmatik, p. 312 sqq.; Huther, Ueber ζωή u. πιστεÏειν im Î. Τ., in the Jahrbb. F. deutsch. Theol. for 1872, pp. 1-33; [bp. Lghtft. Com. on Gal. p. 154 sqq.]. On Paul's conception of πίστις, cf. Lipsius, Paulin. Rechtfertigungslehre, p. 94 sqq.; Weiss, Bibl. Theol. d. N. T., § 82 c. d. (cf. the index s. v. Glaube); Pfleiderer,Paulinismus, p. 162 sqq. [Eng. trans. i. p. 161 sqq.; Schnedermann, De fidei notione ethica Paulina. (Lips. 1880)]. On the idea of faith in the Ep. to the Hebrews see Riehm, Lehrbegr. des Hebr.-Br. p. 700 sqq.; Weiss, as above § 125 b. c. On John's conception, see Reuss, die Johann. Theol. § 10 in the Beitrage zu d. theol. Wissensch. i. p. 56 sqq. [cf. his Histoire de la Théol. Chrétienne, etc., 3me éd., ii. p. 508 sqq. (Eng. trans. ii. 455 sqq.)]; Weiss, as above § 149, and the same author's Johann. Lehrbegriff, p. 18 sqq.*

The Greek root for the word faith is the word for "persuade" (be persuaded, obey, trust, believe) and it looks like "faith" is the root for "believe" (commit to, have trust, believer).

 

Looking at all this and then saying "You are saved by your [conviction of the truth]" or "You are saved by what you strongly think is true." isn't as impressive sounding as "You are saved by faith."

 

But them are the facts. Xians: You are apparently saved by what you strongly think is the truth.

 

mwc

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Ruby:

In ordinary life, when people say "I believe" they normally mean it makes sense to them. It seems some people make an exception for religion. I don't. I think it is important to draw the line somewhere between truth and falsehood. The Bible itself is very strong on differentiating between true and false teaching. How can anyone do this if they cannot determine truth independently from an authority?

Faith as defined by Paul is irrational. An opinion or belief can be rational or irrational. If you choose to believe you can delude yourself to achieve a belief or you can try reason. The less parsimonious a belief the more irrational it is. Faith as the bible defines it ( apostle paul is the only one who defines Faith for Christians) is a reckless abandonment of reason. It is ridiculous.

 

As far as I can recall the bible uses Faith in at least two general ways.

 

Faith as trust in Gods goodness .... but this sort of Faith can only be expressed through fictional bible characters. For example Job who allegedly had a personal relationship ( even had two way conversations with the big guy hehe) with God and yet needed to trust that God genuinely loves him.

 

......er yea God sure loved Job.

 

This sort of Faith which is trust in God only takes place after a person already begs the question of a God. Christians are deliberately gullible in believing the bible stories which are obviously fiction. This sort of Faith is not the same as the Faith that a real person would have who was in a real relationship with God...as Job allegedly did. For a person to think they can trust God...it would require that they first beg the question that there is a God and then later they will just assume that life experiences are evidence for this God....confirmation bias anyone?

 

So even if a Christian starts here she is forced to agree that she actually begins by begging the question of a God in the first place.

 

Which leaves the person with ---> The second kind of faith -hope without evidence....an unjustified belief.

 

Hebrews 11:1. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. ....this IS belief without justification.

 

Also....

 

Romans 8:24-25: “For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.”

 

Here Paul says that you can't have faith if you have facts. If you have a reason to believe then by definition...you can not have faith! Paul defines Faith for Christians! Christians are stuck with his definition and can't wiggle out of it. Christians are to live by Faith.

 

Christian Faith must be belief without justification no matter how you cut it. Christian faith leads to delusion.

 

Christians love to equivocate among other things. If blind trust or belief is such a bad thing then why accuse others of doing it if its ok. Its a "you too" logical fallacy.

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So we can see that 'faith' can mean both 'belief' (as in conviction) and 'trust'. And I just looked up the definition of 'opinion' and one definition is "a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty." So it's obvious that they are very related words.

 

This is short the etymology I found for these words:

 

Opinion: from lat. Opinare - to chose, suppose, to desire

 

Faith: from lat. Fides - to trust, (related words: confidence, to confide in)

 

Believe: from belefan and gelyfan - to hold dear, to love, to desire

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So we can see that 'faith' can mean both 'belief' (as in conviction) and 'trust'. And I just looked up the definition of 'opinion' and one definition is "a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty." So it's obvious that they are very related words. (from lat. Opinare - to chose, suppose, to desire)

What I don't get is why try to show that there is a difference between believe and opinion when Christians are to believe in christ without rational justifications as it is written?

 

Real belief for a Christian comes from conformation bias. We can remember. And the bible asks for something that is unnatural for us to do in the first place. People never really think about what Ruby pointed out.

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Thanks for the analyses and discussion, everyone. Mwc, I really liked the conclusion you arrived at:

 

Looking at all this and then saying "You are saved by your [conviction of the truth]" or "You are saved by what you strongly think is true." isn't as impressive sounding as "You are saved by faith."

 

But them are the facts. Xians: You are apparently saved by what you strongly think is the truth.

 

QUESTION: Do you find that info from Strong's Concordance online? If so, where is it? Or where would I go to do that kind of indepth word study?

 

HanSolo, having read your responses I would like to look again at another point in the OP--at the concept of having faith in religion, or faith in something.

 

I think I agree with you here Ruby. Faith is more about the trust in something or someone, which is in turn based on the belief. Faith is kind of the step after belief. First someone believe, then you start having trust in the system (dogma, theology etc) which is a sign of faith in the religion.

 

I haven't been out of religion all that long. Just over a year. I never thought about having faith in religion. I always thought one had faith in God. In my mind, God was always totally distinct from religion. Religion was the rules about how to dress and live and believe, God was a real Being who created the universe and looked out for all of us and helped us make difficult decisions on a daily basis. There are very many people who are not part of any organized religion who nevertheless know (are convinced beyond a doubt) in their innermost being that God is an intrinsic reality of existence. This is not something we should mock or even snicker at. The human psyche is so developed that it definitely seems like there is "something out there"--for some people probably more so than others.

 

Yet from an atheistic or agnostic perspective, I can see that God is part and parcel of religion, and therefore I can see why you might talk about having faith in religion. This leads to the next question--which really is somewhat off-topic but I started the thread so maybe I am allowed to derail it.

 

Yesterday I posted on my forums what faith is. I quoted Heb. 11:1 and Mithra's post from Anterman's thread (Acceptance. Not really hopeless resignation, but peaceful acceptance of reality.

 

I think those who are in this place are unassailable by the faith merchants.) and added some of my own thoughts. Anyway, a Christian asked me what I had faith in.

 

I was stumped. I realized that I had made the same observation of atheists while I was still a Christian. They, too, demonstrated faith that things would work out, and I commented on it. This couple were professors in their sixties so I guess they did not lack intelligence or life experience, but they didn't take it anywhere. They acknowledged that I had a point and left it at that.

 

I am here talking about faith that is confidence, or trust, or a sure hope--something much stronger than wishful thinking or regular hope that can go either way, but something that is less sure than factual knowledge.

 

But faith in what? I posted an answer for the Christian but I tried not to give a definite "object" for my faith. If I said "faith in myself" I knew some people would run with the "they worship themselves" idea. If I said "faith in chance" they would run with other twisted ideas. I haven't done all that much reading outside of forums like this, but I've done a lifetime of thinking and questioning based on what I can see of life as a human.

 

The single biggest thing I have done in my life (where faith is required) is leave the security of the horse and buggy community where the basics of life would be guaranteed for life; I wanted to get an education for a meaningful career. At the time I thought I was trusting God. I was successful in school beyond my wildest dreams. I believed I would have been unable to do it without God and gave God all the glory. When deconverting, that was my biggest hurdle to overcome. I had to admit that I was probably a great deal smarter than I realized. Strangely, that was not an easy thing to accept--kinda like realizing that the shiny coin I'd been keeping in my drawer really was a million-dollar-worth piece of sterling silver. It was really scarey to accept so MUCH responsibility.

 

So here I am. I've got faith and not just a little. I know this because the feeling I have is no different from what it was back in 2000 when I did volunteer work for Mennonite Central Committee and they had my pastor fill out a form testifying about my faith. He testified that I had strong faith--and I wasn't even sure if I believed in God. (Apparently it didn't show the way the Bible says it shows.)

 

But faith in what? How would you answer that question?

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Sorry Ruby I misunderstood what your thread is about.

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QUESTION: Do you find that info from Strong's Concordance online? If so, where is it? Or where would I go to do that kind of indepth word study?

I usually use two places. The first is Crosswalk. It's quick and easy but just the basics. Then I use Greek Bible Study for the most in-depth stuff. It's a little harder since you have to select the Greek word to get the details (but since I'm trying to ever so slowly learn Greek I don't mind).

 

mwc

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Belief is having an idea you hold to be true. Faith is the same, but with the added stipulation of disregarding any evidence to the contrary.

 

Because of the confusion, I hesitate to say I believe in the theory of evolution, because I know fundies will just twist it around and say I have a belief just the same as they do. But my belief is supported by evidence, so I hold the idea to be true. A fundy has faith, since he or she will believe the bible no matter what evidence to the contrary you may provide.

 

 

As for opinion, I would say that's subjective. In my opinion, Sichuan cuisine is delicious, but I don't have faith that the next time I have it will be delicious, because I know the objective reality that the cook may not be very skilled and do a bad job. If I indeed had that faith, then I would profess, upon tasting the offending cuisine, that it was indeed delicious, or state pretentiously that it's not true Sichuan cuisine even if the cook were from Sichuan who followed a Sichuan recipe, the ingredients were from Sichuan and it was prepared within the province of Sichuan in a Sichuan restaurant.

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Sorry Ruby I misunderstood what your thread is about.

 

No problem, Mankey.

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