Fundies Refute Bible Teaches Flat Earth Theory

[R. S. Martin]

When I was a child, my mother had a hard time convincing me that the earth was round and that it moved. We had no TV so all I had was her word for When it. I started looking at the clouds and I noticed that they moved. She said, no, that was not evidence of the earth's movement. Finally, with enough persuasion and also some information from the teacher at school--and perhaps some diagrams, I accepted it as reasonable. Then I started reading the Bible.

 

I forget the exact words but I clearly got the impression that the writers thought the earth was flat. I commented on this and then I was told that long ago people believed the earth was flat. I accepted that. It made sense. I stored the information for forty-odd years and never had reason to raise the issue. Then this past year I casually pulled it out in discussion with Christians. I assumed everyone knew what was so obvious to me that I had long ago stopped keeping track of the verses--that the Bible writers assumed that the earth was flat.

 

I got a sharply defensive response, a demand for a proof text, as though I had crossed some sacred boundary. I was stunned. Hadn't these people been reading the Bible??? Then, just a few weeks ago, on James Hannam's website where he is advertizing his book God's Philosphers I was "shocked out of my skin" to see a professed scholar "proving" that the Christian Church had never believed that the earth was flat, and that no scientist had ever been persecuted for critiquing it. I contacted him via email and the correspondence is posted on here.

 

In his words (from his book on his website):

God's Philosophers

debunks many myths about the Middle Ages. Medieval people did not think the earth was flat, nor did Columbus 'prove' that it is a sphere. Everyone already knew. The Inquisition burnt nobody for their science nor was Copernicus afraid of persecution.

I am sure a lot of people thought otherwise. It also seems highly suspect that this information is only "uncovered" now that fundamentalists have so very much to lose. Past generations of fundamentalists have accepted that the earth is round. Anyone who travels in a jet knows that the earth is round. It is a fact that cannot be denied these days except perhaps by a person like me whose feet have never been further from solid ground than the top of the CN Tower in Toronto. Yet I would also have to deny all the history and other stories of travel I know.

 

Everything we know is based on a "round world" world view. But the Bible clearly assumes otherwise and this is costing the fundamentalists some serious concern. I assume they were not aware of this problem in their theology until nonfundamentalists used it to undermine their obstinate stance on creationism. I really don't know. All I know is that I have always thought that everyone knew that the Bible assumed a flat earth.

 

I have finally found a list of verses that leave the impression that the biblical writers thought the earth was flat, and I maintain that is what they thought. It's in An Evaluation of Biblical Cosmology by J. P. Holding (yes, I found this site because our poor little petermoore made such trollish posts about J.P. Holding). I will be accused for taking it out of context. I don't care. Holding is "proving" that these verses don't mean that the earth is flat. I don't care that I am saying the opposite. All I care is that there is a list of the verses that seem to prove my point.

 

Just now I read his brief conclusion. I will copy it below. I am impressed that he allows even for a hair-breadth possibility of misinterpretation. Apparently the evidence is not as solid as he would like. He says:

Conclusion

 

It must be admitted outright that SOME of the items listed here COULD be interpreted as giving a false cosmology - but it is also possible to interpret them other ways. The Bible lacks specifics in this regard (i.e., precise distances and descriptions - as were often offered up by the pagans), and so leaves the answer, "Does the Bible teach bad cosmology?", quite ambiguous in a few places. But for the majority of the cites we have seen, there is no such ambiguity, merely misinterpretation by skeptics and/or poetry. We are justified in our assertion that there is no proof that the Bible teaches a false cosmology.

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

Ruby,

 

Have you seen this site? It nicely summarizes items in the bible that support the idea of a flat earth.

 

Here's another site that documents biblical claims for a geocentric cosmology including flat earth notions.

[R. S. Martin]

No I haven't!

 

Schadewald says "Except among Biblical inerrantists, it is generally agreed that the Bible describes an immovable earth." I have to look at this. I may be able to fit this into my thesis. I'm writing about Fundies and the scientific dilemma--not sure yet how it will all come together.

 

This gets really seriously interesting because the fundy hero and professor Charles Hodge back in 1870 said the Bible and science have to agree since the Bible is of God. He said if they don't it is because the church has misinterpreted the Bible. So now the fundies are reinterpretting the Bible. I wonder at what point it can be said that they have simply ripped the Bible apart. I mean this question to be asked on the level where biblical scholars have to agree that there really is a problem, not just us exfundies who have a serious beef to vent. I wonder what Charles Hodge would make of the present situation. I wonder why the adults in my life didn't "correct" me back when I asked about it--why, if it is so important to believe that the Bible teaches a sphereic earth, did no one ever preached on it. There is something missing somewhere!

[Taphophilia]

In his words (from his book on his website):

God's Philosophers

debunks many myths about the Middle Ages. Medieval people did not think the earth was flat, nor did Columbus 'prove' that it is a sphere. Everyone already knew. The Inquisition burnt nobody for their science nor was Copernicus afraid of persecution.

.

 

Actually, this is true. By the middle ages, long before them, it was known that the earth was round. I'd like to point out this has nothing to do with the Bible. The reason Copernicus escaped persecution was because he died almost as soon as his book was published. Galileo was imprisoned. He had influential friends who kept him from being tortured, but he died in prison. Their heresy wasn't proving the earth round, but that Heaven was not above the clouds. Where does the Bible say Heaven is?

[Mythra]

It's obvious that the writer of Matthew thought the world was flat by this verse in the 4th chaper:

 

 

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."

 

And -

 

When christians cite the "circle of the earth" verse in Isaiah, the word "circle" is gwx, transliterated "chuwg". This is a circle, like a pizza.

 

The Hebrew word for sphere or ball is rwd, transliterated "duwr"

 

So, when christians say the bible calls the earth a circle don't let em snow you.

[R. S. Martin]

It's obvious that the writer of Matthew thought the world was flat by this verse in the 4th chaper:

 

 

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."

 

And -

 

When christians cite the "circle of the earth" verse in Isaiah, the word "circle" is gwx, transliterated "chuwg". This is a circle, like a pizza.

 

The Hebrew word for sphere or ball is rwd, transliterated "duwr"

 

So, when christians say the bible calls the earth a circle don't let em snow you.

 

Yeah, I have thought it must take a pretty dense or desperate person to believe ring=ball/sphere. If I want to play ball and all you give me is a hoop I won't be too happy. If I want to wear something on my finger and you give me a ball of some kind I will likewise think you're crazy.

 

Taph said:

 

Where does the Bible say Heaven is?

 

I don't know. I guess I don't know the Bible all that well after all.

 

I was taught that Columbus discovered that the world was round in 1492. And that someone was persecuted because he said the earth was not the center of the universe but moved around the sun. Aren't these things true?

[Taphophilia]

Taph said:

 

Where does the Bible say Heaven is?

 

I don't know. I guess I don't know the Bible all that well after all.

 

I was taught that Columbus discovered that the world was round in 1492. And that someone was persecuted because he said the earth was not the center of the universe but moved around the sun. Aren't these things true?

 

 

No. The earth not being flat was first proposed in 600 BC, but it took a lot more time to be common knowledge. There were two ways the ancients knew it was round: 1. The shadow the earth casts on the moon during an eclipse. 2. Ship hulls would disappear the further out to sea they were.

Columbus didn't discover the world was round. He was trying to find a faster trade route to India. This is a myth popularized by Washington Irving's fictional book, "The Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus" in the 19th century.

By proving the earth went around the sun, Galileo supported Copernicus' theories. He proved the Bible wrong, not by the fact that the earth goes around the sun, but that there isn't a Heaven above the clouds. The Bible teaches that is exactly where Heaven and God exist.

[mwc]

Where does the Bible say Heaven is?

 

I don't know. I guess I don't know the Bible all that well after all.

If you have never taken the time to read the Book of Enoch please do so. It will give you great insight into these things.

 

Even though it's not part of the bible it was still read a great deal and is even quoted by the author of Jude.

 

mwc

[R. S. Martin]

Taph said:

 

Where does the Bible say Heaven is?

 

I don't know. I guess I don't know the Bible all that well after all.

 

I was taught that Columbus discovered that the world was round in 1492. And that someone was persecuted because he said the earth was not the center of the universe but moved around the sun. Aren't these things true?

 

 

No. The earth not being flat was first proposed in 600 BC, but it took a lot more time to be common knowledge. There were two ways the ancients knew it was round: 1. The shadow the earth casts on the moon during an eclipse. 2. Ship hulls would disappear the further out to sea they were.

Columbus didn't discover the world was round. He was trying to find a faster trade route to India. This is a myth popularized by Washington Irving's fictional book, "The Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus" in the 19th century.

By proving the earth went around the sun, Galileo supported Copernicus' theories. He proved the Bible wrong, not by the fact that the earth goes around the sun, but that there isn't a Heaven above the clouds. The Bible teaches that is exactly where Heaven and God exist.

 

I always thought heaven was supposed to be above the sky but I don't know if the Bible specifically teaches that or not. I sort of lose confidence in the stuff I think I know when some of this stuff is solidly refuted. What I can't get into my head is how could anyone believe that there is a heaven literally above the clouds if they believe in a spheric earth? In a flat, three-tiered universe, yes, but in a round earth revolving through space and nobody knows which side is up....where exactly would heaven be? Oh I know--I always imagined up. But in my mind God was always outside the universe. The Bible said God holds the universe in the palm of his hand so I assumed God was outside the universe and big enough to hold it in his hand. Quite an awesome God we serve. That's what I thought and I liked the idea.

 

But god failed to answer The Question and I gave him forty years in which to do it. Forty years seems to be the ultimate time for anything in the Bible--forty years in the wilderness for the Israelites. Moses was forty years old when he got smart enough to leave Egypt and after another forty years God called him. Waiting forty years for God to explain to me how the Plan of Salvation worked--and getting no answer--that pretty well proved to me that he doesn't exist. Then I was exposed to scientific facts that blew god right out of the equation and basically sealed what doubts remained. Today I find myself able to talk as if God existed to avoid offense if that is required but I find it seems really silly to actually believe in god. I guess that means the deconversion process is pretty much complete.

 

How did Galileo prove to anyone that heaven and God were not above the clouds?

 

Anyway, if what you are telling me is true, then Hannam is still lying through his teeth. I understand he claims the personal honour of discovering that Columbus did not prove that the earth was round, etc. Maybe my brain's not working..I dunno.

 

Mwc, I have the book of Enoch. Got it maybe 20 years ago. Tried reading it and couldn't make head or tails of it back then. I don't have time to read it these days. If there is something in it that I should know, could you summarize it for me and tell it in a few sentences? Thank you.

[Mythra]

In one of Carl Sagan's online videos (I think it's the one where he's at the Library at Alexandria) - he talks about how knowledge was set back 1,000 years - largely due to the christian influence.

 

He talks about the Greeks knowing the earth was spherical as early as Pythagoras (570? BCE) . Eratosthenes not only knew the earth was spherical, but actually came very close to calculating the actual circumference. And this was around 250 BCE.

 

So, if Columbus rediscovered a spherical earth, it was only because religion made it flat for 1,400 years.

 

Here is a pretty good Wikipedia article on it:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth

[R. S. Martin]

Mwc, I have the book of Enoch. Got it maybe 20 years ago. Tried reading it and couldn't make head or tails of it back then. I don't have time to read it these days. If there is something in it that I should know, could you summarize it for me and tell it in a few sentences? Thank you.

 

Just now I was looking at one of the sites Tex gave and it says 1 Enoch is one of the evidences for a flat earth in the Bible. So I guess that is why you said to read Enoch.

[R. S. Martin]

In one of Carl Sagan's online videos (I think it's the one where he's at the Library at Alexandria) - he talks about how knowledge was set back 1,000 years - largely due to the christian influence.

 

He talks about the Greeks knowing the earth was spherical as early as Pythagoras (570? BCE) . Eratosthenes not only knew the earth was spherical, but actually came very close to calculating the actual circumference. And this was around 250 BCE.

 

So, if Columbus rediscovered a spherical earth, it was only because religion made it flat for 1,400 years.

 

Here is a pretty good Wikipedia article on it:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth

 

I read that article. Also a few other links. And guess what--I found out what M&Ms are. Smarties. Apparently in German-speaking lands there are discussions about the earth not being spherical but shaped like Smarties--or like M&Ms for Americans.

 

I am really curious what kind of muddled history or folk legend leaked through to me. So I was told that long ago people thought the earth was flat. Didn't take no brains to believe that. Then I heard that very long ago, way before Christ's time, the ancients knew that the earth was round but it got "lost" or forgotten. Then all of this had to be rediscovered. And, based on what I learned in school from about 1963 onwards, it seemed like our generation was the first truly enlightened one to walk the earth.

 

(These days we're not so sure anymore. I like this less cocky attitude.)

 

All of this more or less corresponds with what people are saying in this thread. I wonder if it was this crazy fiction Taph mentions that sent people for a loop so that it got taught as history. I am quite sure I was taught by my teacher that Columbus got the bright idea that the earth was round because he would sit on the dock and watch the ship's hull disappearing as it sailed away, then the sail, and finally the tip disappeared. And when they came back, it was the reverse. The wikipedia article tells me it was Aristotle two thousand years earlier who had that insight.

 

For me, when we're talking about recorded human history, two thousand years here or there makes a difference, but I dunno--maybe for some people...if it didn't happen last year or yesterday it's all in the long ago and far away...Seems to me I have blood relatives who couldn't care less about things like this. I don't quite get it...Might that be more reason not to take them too seriously about matters of hell and the likes?

 

I mean, if they can't tell the difference between Aristotle and Columbus....

[Taphophilia]

Ruby,

 

They had a concept of celestial spheres, with earth being in the center. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_spheres

 

Columbus believed the earth was a third smaller than it is. It was expensive and time consuming to travel by land to India and China for spices and silk. In Columbus time, the spices that an average grocery store carries would ransom a king. They didn't have refrigeration. They preserved food with spices. Spices were an expensive and much in demand commodity much like gasoline is today. He thought that by sailing west, he would find an easier passage to the east. He'd been peddling his idea all around Europe trying to get a sponsor to prove he was right. He died believing he was. He thought the West Indies were islands off the coast of China. It wasn't until after his death it was proved otherwise.

 

Learning that the history I was taught as a child wasn't history but was, in fact, myth, helped me in my deconversion. It was easier, though not a piece of cake, for me to accept what I had been taught was truth about Christianity was also a myth.

[ShackledNoMore]

And -

 

When christians cite the "circle of the earth" verse in Isaiah, the word "circle" is gwx, transliterated "chuwg". This is a circle, like a pizza.

 

The Hebrew word for sphere or ball is rwd, transliterated "duwr"

 

So, when christians say the bible calls the earth a circle don't let em snow you.

Yeah, heh heh.

 

When I was in my early teens, in the height of my time as a xian, this verse was cited to me as "proof" that the bible claimed that the world was round.

 

Of course I knew nothing about Hebrew, but even then it sounded like they must have been on something like crack to use this verse for that argument! It doesn't take a PhD, or a technologically advanced society to fathom the difference between a circle and a sphere, especially if the explanation is being inspired by an inerrant god.

[Guest namaste]

When I was a child, my mother had a hard time convincing me that the earth was round and that it moved. We had no TV so all I had was her word for When it. I started looking at the clouds and I noticed that they moved. She said, no, that was not evidence of the earth's movement. Finally, with enough persuasion and also some information from the teacher at school--and perhaps some diagrams, I accepted it as reasonable. Then I started reading the Bible.

 

I forget the exact words but I clearly got the impression that the writers thought the earth was flat. I commented on this and then I was told that long ago people believed the earth was flat. I accepted that. It made sense. I stored the information for forty-odd years and never had reason to raise the issue. Then this past year I casually pulled it out in discussion with Christians. I assumed everyone knew what was so obvious to me that I had long ago stopped keeping track of the verses--that the Bible writers assumed that the earth was flat.

 

I got a sharply defensive response, a demand for a proof text, as though I had crossed some sacred boundary. I was stunned. Hadn't these people been reading the Bible??? Then, just a few weeks ago, on James Hannam's website where he is advertizing his book God's Philosphers I was "shocked out of my skin" to see a professed scholar "proving" that the Christian Church had never believed that the earth was flat, and that no scientist had ever been persecuted for critiquing it. I contacted him via email and the correspondence is posted on here.

 

In his words (from his book on his website):

God's Philosophers

debunks many myths about the Middle Ages. Medieval people did not think the earth was flat, nor did Columbus 'prove' that it is a sphere. Everyone already knew. The Inquisition burnt nobody for their science nor was Copernicus afraid of persecution.

I am sure a lot of people thought otherwise. It also seems highly suspect that this information is only "uncovered" now that fundamentalists have so very much to lose. Past generations of fundamentalists have accepted that the earth is round. Anyone who travels in a jet knows that the earth is round. It is a fact that cannot be denied these days except perhaps by a person like me whose feet have never been further from solid ground than the top of the CN Tower in Toronto. Yet I would also have to deny all the history and other stories of travel I know.

 

Everything we know is based on a "round world" world view. But the Bible clearly assumes otherwise and this is costing the fundamentalists some serious concern. I assume they were not aware of this problem in their theology until nonfundamentalists used it to undermine their obstinate stance on creationism. I really don't know. All I know is that I have always thought that everyone knew that the Bible assumed a flat earth.

 

I have finally found a list of verses that leave the impression that the biblical writers thought the earth was flat, and I maintain that is what they thought. It's in An Evaluation of Biblical Cosmology by J. P. Holding (yes, I found this site because our poor little petermoore made such trollish posts about J.P. Holding). I will be accused for taking it out of context. I don't care. Holding is "proving" that these verses don't mean that the earth is flat. I don't care that I am saying the opposite. All I care is that there is a list of the verses that seem to prove my point.

 

Just now I read his brief conclusion. I will copy it below. I am impressed that he allows even for a hair-breadth possibility of misinterpretation. Apparently the evidence is not as solid as he would like. He says:

Conclusion

 

It must be admitted outright that SOME of the items listed here COULD be interpreted as giving a false cosmology - but it is also possible to interpret them other ways. The Bible lacks specifics in this regard (i.e., precise distances and descriptions - as were often offered up by the pagans), and so leaves the answer, "Does the Bible teach bad cosmology?", quite ambiguous in a few places. But for the majority of the cites we have seen, there is no such ambiguity, merely misinterpretation by skeptics and/or poetry. We are justified in our assertion that there is no proof that the Bible teaches a false cosmology.