Pretentiousness

[pitchu]

I really would appreciate others' thoughts on this.

 

Maybe it's because I've fought a sense of fraudulence for so many years ("If people knew your beginnings they'd question your accomplishments," I would tell myself) but I'm now to a point where I'm disgusted nearly to nausea by what seem to me to be people's false presentations of themselves.

 

Airs and artifice of all sorts grate on me so terribly... like effortful modesty, grudging tolerance, apologetic erudition, transparent pseudo-sophistication, to name only a few.

 

I expect to find pretension among Christians (though it still irritates me), because pretension and pretending go hand-in-hand, but I'm finding it in the freethinking community, too. Atheists like Christopher Hitchens, with his unearned arrogance, and Noam Chomsky's monotone mumbling of great truths, as though he's not in charge of his mind or his mouth but is instead experiencing on-high channeling, drive me 'round the bend.

 

Here at Ex-C there are so many varieties of authentic people -- beautiful flat-out take-me-or-leave-me people -- you'd think I could be more kind if one or two whom I view as pretentious pop up, but I can't seem to put a lid on it.

 

Stop me before I kill.

[Fweethawt]

I think you're just pretending to be pissed about this...

 

 

 

 

 

Seriously now... What do you mean by, "apologetic erudition" in the context you used it in above?

 

Would that be people who refuse to admit that something they've read, learned, studied and embraced could be wrong?

[HuaiDan]

I can't even be bothered *sigh*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dave]

I really would appreciate others' thoughts on this.

 

Maybe it's because I've fought a sense of fraudulence for so many years ("If people knew your beginnings they'd question your accomplishments," I would tell myself) but I'm now to a point where I'm disgusted nearly to nausea by what seem to me to be people's false presentations of themselves.

 

Where is it written that people MUST act in a way that you think they should?

 

That is not my question, but it comes straight from someone that was Humanist of the Year awhile back; the late Dr. Albert Ellis

 

Quote:

 

12 Irrational Ideas That Cause and Sustain Neurosis

 

1. The idea that it is a dire necessity for adults to be loved by significant others for almost everything they do -- instead of their concentrating on their own self-respect, on winning approval for practical purposes, and on loving rather than on being loved.

 

2. The idea that certain acts are awful or wicked, and that people who perform such acts should be severely damned -- instead of the idea that certain acts are self-defeating or antisocial, and that people who perform such acts are behaving stupidly, ignorantly, or neurotically, and would be better helped to change. People's poor behaviors do not make them rotten individuals.

 

3. The idea that it is horrible when things are not the way we like them to be -- instead of the idea that it is too bad, that we would better try to change or control bad conditions so that they become more satisfactory, and, if that is not possible, we had better temporarily accept and gracefully lump their exis tence.

 

4. The idea that human misery is invariably externally caused and is forced on us by outside people and events -- instead of the idea that neurosis is largely caused by the view that we take of unfortunate conditions.

 

5. The idea that if something is or may be dangerous or fearsome we should be terribly upset and endlessly obsess about it -- instead of the idea that one would better frankly face it and render it non-dangerous and, when that is not possible, accept the inevitable.

 

6. The idea that it is easier to avoid than to face life difficulties and self-responsibilities -- instead of the idea that the so-called easy way is usually much harder in the long run.

 

7. The idea that we absolutely need something other or stronger or greater than ourself on which to rely -- instead of the idea that it is better to take the risks of thinking and acting less depen dently.

 

8. The idea that we should be thoroughly competent, intelligent, and achieving in all possible respects -- instead of the idea that we would better do rather than always need to do well and accept ourself as a quite imperfect creature, who has general human limitations and specific fallibilities.

 

9. The idea that because something once strongly affected our life, it should indefinitely affect it -- instead of the idea that we can learn from our past experiences but not be overly-attached to or prejudiced by them.

 

10. The idea that we must have certain and perfect control over things -- instead of the idea that the world is full of probability and chance and that we can still enjoy life despite this.

 

11. The idea that human happiness can be achieved by inertia and inaction -- instead of the idea that we tend to be happiest when we are vitally absorbed in creative pursuits, or when we are devoting ourselves to people or projects outside ourselves.

 

12. The idea that we have virtually no control over our emotions and that we cannot help feeling disturbed about things -- instead of the idea that we have real control over our destructive emotions if we choose to work at changing the musturbatory hypotheses which we often employ to create them.

 

(From The Essence of Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy, by Albert Ellis, Ph.D. Revised, May 1994.)

[HuaiDan]

Why 12? Why not 11 or 13? 12 is a pretty pretentious number.

[SWIM]

Unless you know everyone personally, what makes you think they are being pretentious? I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, and make my determination of "like or dislike" based on the content of their writings, their viewpoints, etc etc, not based on who they are, where they are, or where they say they have been. So far I have not really seen anyone in these forums that appear to be "full of it" except maybe the apologists that come by trying to "save" us here.

 

But, in all fairness I have not been here really long enough to see what you are saying, have not read every post etc etc.

 

I run across sheer arrogance surfing atheist stuff on youtube quite often though, and it is truly irritating.

[mwc]

"Grant me the courage to change the things I can change, the serenity to accept those that I cannot change, and the wisdom to know the difference."

 

I much prefer "Serenity Now!" from Seinfeld (although, as noted in the episode "Serenity now. Insanity later." ).

 

mwc

[Dave]

Why 12? Why not 11 or 13? 12 is a pretty pretentious number.

Not at all. They can all be boiled down to three irrational ideas:

 

1. the world is not fair and it MUST be.

2. the world does not act like I believe it MUST.

3. I deserve better.

 

Or pick your own, from one to 100. It doesn't matter. It is not something you MUST make yourself upset over.

 

Notice the "MUST"? The whole thing about REBT is to get rid of the demanding thoughts that entail MUSTerbation. Try not to use thoughts that contain a must, ought, should, need, and so one. Those are, usually, based on emotions instead of reality.

 

The thing is, that if you do not like REBT - you do not HAVE to use it.

[pitchu]

Seriously now... What do you mean by, "apologetic erudition" in the context you used it in above?

 

Would that be people who refuse to admit that something they've read, learned, studied and embraced could be wrong?

No, that would be people who insist on mock-humbly downplaying the shit-load of their accumulated "wisdom" which they've just dumped on you.

*****

 

HuaiDan Posted Today, 10:15 AM

I can't even be bothered *sigh*

Exactly!

*****

 

Dave, the funny thing is... I read Dr. Ellis's list and responded to it by imagining how wonderful it would feel to give the list to them!

But thanks for it; it's good.

*****

 

Michael, I use the same determinants you mention in order to make my judgments and, as I said, I truly find almost everyone at this site to be authentic and authentically enjoyable. Why the few phonies in my current experience make me berserk, I don't yet know. I'll have to look at Ellis's list often, I guess, to keep the creeping tendrils of neurosis cut back...

*****

 

...Or else, mwc, just enjoy my serenity now and deal with my insanity later --

[Dave]

Dave, the funny thing is... I read Dr. Ellis's list and responded to it by imagining how wonderful it would feel to give the list to them!

But thanks for it; it's good.

It's only for you. What I mean by that is that list is for one to work on themself, not figure out what is wrong with the rest of the world.

If you did use that on others, you'd never get anything esle done. We're all screwed up.

[LithaB]

Why the few phonies in my current experience make me berserk, I don't yet know. I'll have to look at Ellis's list often, I guess, to keep the creeping tendrils of neurosis cut back...

*****

 

My mother taught me that the people you find most unbearably annoying are probably exhibiting the traits you most despise in yourself. So if you are coming unglued over people whom you perceive to be pretentious pitchu, it could be that you are feeling like a phony yourself on some level. If you can make peace with yourself on that level it will be much easier to be tolerant of others with the same issues.

[woodsmoke]

My mother taught me that the people you find most unbearably annoying are probably exhibiting the traits you most despise in yourself. So if you are coming unglued over people whom you perceive to be pretentious pitchu, it could be that you are feeling like a phony yourself on some level. If you can make peace with yourself on that level it will be much easier to be tolerant of others with the same issues.

 

Meh.. I think that's true to some extent, but not universally so.

 

As an example, I can't stand people who possess great athletic ability and do everything in their power to make sure the whole world knows about it. I'm not athletic in the least--my talents, such as they are, lie mostly in intellectual pursuits--and I have a fairly healthy estimation of my own intelligence. However, while I don't play at false modesty, I've never felt compelled to judge the perceived "inferiority" of those around me and subsequently inform them of my decisions.

 

I suppose Mom already said it best; I just don't like pretentious people. That has nothing to do with any subtle/subconscious pretentiousness in myself.

[pitchu]

My mother taught me that the people you find most unbearably annoying are probably exhibiting the traits you most despise in yourself. So if you are coming unglued over people whom you perceive to be pretentious pitchu, it could be that you are feeling like a phony yourself on some level. If you can make peace with yourself on that level it will be much easier to be tolerant of others with the same issues.

:ohmy:

[HuaiDan]

Why the few phonies in my current experience make me berserk, I don't yet know. I'll have to look at Ellis's list often, I guess, to keep the creeping tendrils of neurosis cut back...

*****

 

My mother taught me that the people you find most unbearably annoying are probably exhibiting the traits you most despise in yourself. So if you are coming unglued over people whom you perceive to be pretentious pitchu, it could be that you are feeling like a phony yourself on some level. If you can make peace with yourself on that level it will be much easier to be tolerant of others with the same issues.

 

 

Sounds a bit abrasive to me, like you're accusing Pitchu of the pretentiousness that she so despises. Examining your words a bit more closely, "on some level," then you're not really committing to calling Pitchu pretentious at all. "Some level" can be anything. For example. I can't stand dishonesty. I'm a little dishonest sometimes, everybody is. I know how I feel when I'm dishonest, it makes me feel sleazy and self-serving, so those who display dishonesty more predominantly in their lifestyles I feel have a more base character, and display a higher tolerance for their own sleaziness. So yes, I am dishonest "on some level". It helps me recognize what I don't like about dishonesty in others.

 

So, I have to disagree somewhat. Yes, despising a personality trait may indeed suggest that you possess it yourself on some level, but in no way does it make that trait predominant in your character. Despising it merely means we wish to overcome it in our own personality, whatever level at which we possess it, and we wish others would strive to do the same.

[Onyx]

I try to keep pretentiousness limited to the literary level, not at a personal level. That is, my tolerance for pretentiousness ends with a fictional novel. I can read the most difficult novels without being annoyed (There was an exception, though) because I know it's not real and it's there to be solved like a puzzle but when I see a person exhibiting the same traits as the aforementioned novel without bothering to be auto-satiric about it, I instantly want to put the torture rack on them. Hypocritical I know but I never act like a barbarian on this opinion in real life.

 

One example I had in my life recently, when I was on a Deviant Art chatroom, I met this arrogant fucknit which kept on calling me retarded and used some supremely superflous words. I was pretty pissed off but I didn't fight him on it. I then heard him blathering on about (I remember the entirety of it due to trying to understand it and this is the short version!)

"The polymodalities of the angst ridded anarchic revolutionary minds against the monomanically repressive coporatist orwellian dictatorial mindframes should with well sheered intentions, prevail without the oceanic opposition which prevents these omni-important aims which will establish a platinium age of well afforded freedoms." *Phew*

Even an English PhDer could not have possibly understood these fucking waste-words!

 

Then he kept on dismissing me. I decided to annoy him with intentional magnifying and mirroring him and he lashed out at me for being so pretentious. I simply told him not to be a jerkwad next time and I then talked in simple English and ignored him for the rest of the session.

He was gone.

 

So there, I'm not much of a pretentious person and if I feel pretentious, I write it down then edit it later. No worries there, matey.

[pitchu]

I have never, ever, thought of you as pretentious, Onyx, and I doubt anyone else at this site has, either.

[HuaiDan]

"The polymodalities of the angst ridded anarchic revolutionary minds against the monomanically repressive coporatist orwellian dictatorial mindframes should with well sheered intentions, prevail without the oceanic opposition which prevents these omni-important aims which will establish a platinium age of well afforded freedoms."

 

Translation:

 

Because of the inherent diversity of the oppressed (revolutionaries), with good intentions they should be able to overcome their oppressors, but it won't be an easy task.

 

I think. Chomsky would be proud. Which is why I can't read Chomsky either, Pitchu.

[Vigile]

I pretty much have a hard time with most British literature I've been exposed to for this very reason. Keep in mind my exposure is limited, so this is not an indictment of all English writers; I just haven't found any I liked enough to encourage me to keep on looking.

 

I wonder though, are the English just more pretentious or do they just come across to Americans that way? In other words, do Americans judge the English more pretentious because we have a different standard for what constitutes the adjetive?

 

I get the feeling Americans many times come across as cowboys from the British perspective.

[Legion]

Interesting rant Pitchu.

 

I know that I am probably pretentious at times. I try to mitigate it using various tactics, but I know that I must still be so at times.

 

I know some people though who might think me pretentious for daring to discuss something other than fucking, fighting, or food.

[LithaB]

Sounds a bit abrasive to me, like you're accusing Pitchu of the pretentiousness that she so despises.

 

In her original post, pitchu states

Maybe it's because I've fought a sense of fraudulence for so many years ("If people knew your beginnings they'd question your accomplishments," I would tell myself)

 

I merely took her at her word, and agreed that it may be a case of projection.

[Amethyst]

One example I had in my life recently, when I was on a Deviant Art chatroom, I met this arrogant fucknit which kept on calling me retarded and used some supremely superflous words. I was pretty pissed off but I didn't fight him on it. I then heard him blathering on about (I remember the entirety of it due to trying to understand it and this is the short version!)

"The polymodalities of the angst ridded anarchic revolutionary minds against the monomanically repressive coporatist orwellian dictatorial mindframes should with well sheered intentions, prevail without the oceanic opposition which prevents these omni-important aims which will establish a platinium age of well afforded freedoms." *Phew*

Even an English PhDer could not have possibly understood these fucking waste-words!

 

Onyx, it appears as though this person you quoted just looked up a bunch of words in a thesaurus and then pasted them in to appear intelligent and then added a few made up ones just because they wanted to.

 

Monomanically, repressive, coporatist, orwellian, and dictatorial all mean approximately the same thing. Oceanic has nothing to do with oppression, for how can an ocean oppress? And how can an aim be omni-important? It's either important or it's not, it can't be all important. And sheer has to do with wind...intentions can't logically be well sheered. And I even looked up polymodality and it wasn't in the dictionary. Gah!

[pitchu]

I'll elaborate, to end any confusion.

 

My battle against (and eventual victory over) feelings of fraudulence began with my telling elaborate killer lies about myself when I was a kid so that I could cover up the fact of the wretched poverty of my family. No friends were allowed over, so, within the sophistication level of 7- to 10-year olds, this was a pretty easy achievement. My pretensions soon knew no bounds and, at a certain point, I was unceremoniously unmasked by a friend's mother who asked me for the details of when and how my family and I planned to take her daughter with us on our annual summer vacation to Hawaii.

 

In the ensuing years, and through many moves to many cities, my family's economic status improved, as did my level of acceptance among my peers, but I still felt I could never fully be myself (whatever that meant) around other people.

 

When, in my 30's, I entered the world of musical theater as a writer, the feelings of fraudulence returned, coupled with recurring nightmares wherein I'd be pointed out by actors onstage and jeered as I rushed out of the theater. I believed that, whatever my ability as a writer, my talent could never overcome the outrageous fact that I was a female, with a Christian background, born in California to Dust Bowl immigrants and that I was now working and socializing among, mainly, monied male New York Jews. (And their wives or boyfriends, of course.)

 

I was anguished over my unsuitability for that world and I simply did not know what to do.

 

The whole problem was solved for me when I unwittingly referred to a trip I'd once taken in an RV. Eyes lit up around me and other people at the party were motioned over to hear my story. Well, it actually was a good story -- one of our RV group had an absolutely stiff leg from a war wound, and that leg in the aisle led to several strange mishaps -- but as I was telling all this, I realized that, far from being judged "lower class" for taking an RV vacation, I was being viewed as an American Exotic in their very midst.

 

From that point on, I could, with great relief and authentic dignity, simply say I didn't understand something being discussed because I was Poor White Trash. (Rim shot!) It didn't matter. What my personal bio was didn't matter. My work mattered.

 

So, this is a long way 'round to saying that maybe my agitation with pretentiousness comes out of my own hard lesson with it, and my frustration with those who can't seem to trust that being who they really are is plenty good enough for other people who are authentic. At 65, I'm seeing life as something that needs to be lived as an actual self-admitted person... and as way, way too short to fuck around with.

[pitchu]

I pretty much have a hard time with most British literature I've been exposed to for this very reason. Keep in mind my exposure is limited, so this is not an indictment of all English writers; I just haven't found any I liked enough to encourage me to keep on looking.

 

I wonder though, are the English just more pretentious or do they just come across to Americans that way? In other words, do Americans judge the English more pretentious because we have a different standard for what constitutes the adjetive?

 

I get the feeling Americans many times come across as cowboys from the British perspective.

 

I guess I see British style and manner as "quaint" rather than pretentious -- I mean, I think those quirks are pretty much authentic because they've had them for lots of centuries. Do you have a hard time with Shakespeare, Vigile? -- some of that stuff is pretty earthy...

 

Interesting rant Pitchu.

 

I know that I am probably pretentious at times. I try to mitigate it using various tactics, but I know that I must still be so at times.

 

I know some people though who might think me pretentious for daring to discuss something other than fucking, fighting, or food.

 

Maybe people whose discussions are that limited just don't know what to do with you, LR, or they might be intimidated.

 

There's a difference between pretentiousness and earnestly trying to get more out of social interaction.

[Vigile]

No, I dig Shakespeare when I'm forced to wade through it. It's the 19th and 20th century writers that make me cringe. Give me Kerouac, Pirsig, or Heller any day of the week over a Joyce or Woolf though.

 

Maybe this betrays my RV roots, I don't know, but I'll be damned if they are not just better writers.

 

And just so I don't come off as ethnocentric, I'd pit a dozen top French writers, Spanish writers, South American writers against the top dozen British writers any time, any place.

 

Again, it's all just my opinion, but I think their something to be said about putting raw humanity in art. This stiff upper lip stuff just buries true humanity in a grave of pretentiousness and/or fear of exposing true humanity.

 

I mean, can you imagine an English writer bleating on about the fact that he can't get it up anymore the way that Houellebecq does? Has any modern English writer ever captured the entire scope of human emotion and experience in a Genesis-like epic the way that Márquez was able to do in Solitude? Wouldn't an English writer be destroyed by critics if he/she were to pen pure hell-bent-for-speed hedonism, with run on sentences and last-gasp exhaustion that leaves the reader feeling dirty and spent the way that On The Road did?

 

It's all just personal preference and personal opinion of course , but I like it raw and English writers come across to me as scrubbed and tidy.

[Alice]

So, this is a long way 'round to saying that maybe my agitation with pretentiousness comes out of my own hard lesson with it, and my frustration with those who can't seem to trust that being who they really are is plenty good enough for other people who are authentic. At 65, I'm seeing life as something that needs to be lived as an actual self-admitted person... and as way, way too short to fuck around with.

 

In light of this - maybe a way to deal with your frustration, would just be to have in mind that the one not yet trusting that who they really are is good enough - just hasn't had their epiphany moment yet?

 

 

It's all just personal preference and personal opinion of course , but I like it raw and English writers come across to me as scrubbed and tidy.

 

That's coz we are all scrubbed and tidy

 

Just have to tell somebody and here seems like as good a place as any - I've just booked tickets to go to a performance of Macbeth with my daughter, starring .... wait for it ... Patrick Stewart

 

I am so excited I can hardly breathe (in a very restrained kind of way)