lemon Posted October 11, 2007 Posted October 11, 2007 Hello, I am new to this forum. As a disclaimer, my post may appear unfocused. That is because I've been through a lot lately. Recently, I have decided to purge all traces of christianity from my life because it has brought nothing but frustration, heartache, and pain. In fairness though, I do not yet know if it was christianity in and of itself or what I have been taught about it. I say this because somethings I am told by christians are based not on evidence within the bible but opinions. Let me start from the beginning: I didn't become a christian out of a desire, but fear chased me to church. I had an intense fear of hell, fear that I had committed the unpardonable sin, thus I ran to church. Eventually I got saved, filled with the holy spirit, baptized, the whole nine yards. Yet, I could not shake the fact that I was there because of fear and not because I wanted to be. As time went on, my walk became more genuine. As soon as my walk became genuine, the shit hit the fan. I was taught and told things that just didn't sit right with me. The first of which was that I could not wear pants or make-up because it was unchristian. I really believed that I would go to hell for engaging in such. Not only that, but I could not wear braids or wear my hair natural. I am black and let me make it clear that this was a black church teaching that nonsense about hair. All of this left me feeling way too restricted and even less feminine. Other young ladies my age were concerned with men, career, etc, but I was worried about pants. Speaking of men, I didn't have many relationships because "unsaved men" were off limits. When you barely find saved men, there is nothing left for a lady to do but be alone. NO MORE! Unfortunately, it doesn't end there. I had the "opportunity" to listen to a black preacher who claimed that God purposely allowed slavery because of paganism in Africa. He went on to say that an NOI muslim read his book about his views and got saved. Although I accepted that on the surface, it angered me deep down inside. I wondered, "why would God punish black people for that when there were and are many cultures who don't embrace christianity? Today, no group in the US is more into god than black people (just watch any award show and you will find a black celebrity thanking god for an award, who cares that the video or music is the most ungodly thing on earth). This issue lingers with me even to this day. But I still decided to give god a chance. Next, there is the book of Job. I must admit that I cannot stand that book. How could a god agree to let satan torture a man (taking his children, health, etc) just to prove Job will not reject him? In other words, god needed to boost his ego. After sending Job into one tragedy after the next, Job decides to ask God questions. God's response was something along the lines of: Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? You mean to tell me that God allowed a man to suffer tremendously and could only come up with that arrogant response? I mean give Job a break, he was traumatized. Needless to say. I tried to give god another break. I thought, perhaps the story of Job isn't meant to be taken as historical fact, but as fiction to teach a lesson. That I could deal with. But again, the story continues. Tithing: I was a faithful tither, giving a tenth (and sometimes more) of my increase whether income or gifts. I gave and gave and gave. The windows of heaven never opened and I have always seen a curse on my finances. I was led to believe that tithing was mandatory until I actually studied the issue for myself. I will never tithe again, but I lost a lot of money after years of that yoke. What really drove a wedge between God and I is the issue of faith. As a child, and until recently (I'm 33), I was made to believe that a miracle took place in regards to my health. I am a carrier for a genetic disease that was supposedly healed when I was a kid. I was tested last year and lo and behold, I am still a carrier. Christians believe (and according to the bible) that without faith, it is impossible to please God. I would go on to say that 90% of people could not please God and the remaining 10% are still "waiting for their promises"....holding onto faith,hhmmm. I am still waiting to meet one person who ask in faith in Jesus' name and received whatsoever they asked for. If you lose a leg or an arm, it will not grow back no matter how much faith you have. Not everyone's entire household will be saved (according to Acts). In spite of all of this, I was still willing to give God a chance. I finally became pregnant after a couple of years of trying. Each visit, I thought I saw God relieve my fears by keeping my baby safe. Everything was going great until I hit approx 18 weeks. Sadly, my child died in the womb and I was forced to endure delivering a dead but beautiful boy. I named him Joshua, but I should have named him "christian" because with his death, my christian walk died too. I can finally say that I want absolutely nothing to do with the biblical god. How much can one person take? The strange thing is, I feel free and at peace. I love it. Because of my conversion roughly 16 years ago, I don't know that I can truly throw christianity out the window but I CAN and WILL surpress it. There has always been a part of me that detests the god of the bible and my recent tragedy brought that to light. It is sad because I had actually been getting back to God during my pregnancy. So I have decided that while I may not go around trashing God (I have no need to, so why waste my precious energy?) I will no longer acknowledge him in my life or in the world. I guess you can say that I am indifferent. So I have decided to chat with more ex-christians to see if the xtian "worldview" offers the path that I desire. This is all still a process for me. That is only a small part of my story and I hope I didn't bore anyone.
Mongo Posted October 11, 2007 Posted October 11, 2007 Lemon, (Interesting handle. I love lemon anything.) What an amazing story AND it has the ring of truth unlike the insipant testamonies I used to listen to during "Testamony Night" at the PAOC. You have remarkable recall and clarity of your travels. Did you commit the sin of reading secular materials or did you make that amazing mental journey alone? BTW - sorry to hear of your mis-carriage/still birth. Welcome! Mongo
Japedo Posted October 11, 2007 Posted October 11, 2007 Lemon, Welcome to Ex-C. Thank you for sharing your story, it is very heartbreaking to read on so many levels. First let me say that I'm extremely sorry to hear of the devastating loss you've suffered. I think the more you look for answers the more free you will become of the prison of dogma. It is a very long hard road. It is extremely hard to look past fears and dogma we have all been indoctrinated to believe with every fiber of our being. Fear has a way of sometimes paralyzing us and preventing us from looking past what we've been taught. The Christian mentality gives all the glory to god for every little thing that goes right and in turn all the blame to man for every single little thing that goes wrong. It is a never ending lose lose situation you see. It is this mindset that keeps people stuck, it keeps people oppressed for fear of something worse happening if they dare to look outside of what they were taught. This fear has been so deeply ingrained in us that it's part of our everyday thought process. People will always suffer, not because of a god or belief or lack their of, but because it is the nature of the way things are. Tragedy has no bounds nor limits. Not one group of people no matter what their belief or lack there of is 100% protected from it, because it is all part of being human. There are self appointed leaders who of course capitalize on this and use it greatly to their advantage. People in general always want to do right, fear and manipulation however causes them to be taken advantage of and used by those who are able to sell the fear. I wish you much luck on your road to freedom and looking for answers. I honestly hope you find what you're looking for. I also look forward to reading more of your posts.
R. S. Martin Posted October 12, 2007 Posted October 12, 2007 I don't like the story of Job, either. Look at all the people who suffered. It's not just him who suffered. All the kids who died. All the masters and herders and servants who died--all because god was testing one precious person. One person is not worth that much. I know that sounds cruel and harsh but excuse me! Job is but one man among many humans. All those others were human, too! And then, just how realistic is it that he got TWICE as many of each as he lost??? Like, he lost ten kids. And they were already full-grown adults when they got killed in that storm. Exactly how old was their mother when they were born? It seems he had only one wife. So did she bear him twenty more kids? This is the kind of question I was not allowed to ask. And I was supposed to believe that the Bible is true. And if I want to be part of the family I have to profess to believe it. This forces a person to lie. I did that for many years. No more. I have no family. I am finding new family. You look like a promising new member. Welcome!
Dhampir Posted October 12, 2007 Posted October 12, 2007 It's like god, in that story, is the type of person who thinks one can replace children as readily as one might replace a hamster. And like the sudden replacement of full-grown adults with infants is some sort of reward! Fuckin' a, man! Even a child lover would have to be pissed off by that! Anyone else ever question the true value god places on human life by way of that story? I'm sorry for your loss.
lemon Posted October 12, 2007 Author Posted October 12, 2007 It's like god, in that story, is the type of person who thinks one can replace children as readily as one might replace a hamster. And like the sudden replacement of full-grown adults with infants is some sort of reward! Fuckin' a, man! Even a child lover would have to be pissed off by that! Anyone else ever question the true value god places on human life by way of that story? That is why I hope this was meant to be a fictional story. I plan to have another child whom I will love forever. But he/she cannot replace the child I lost. Children cannot replace other children.
ShackledNoMore Posted October 12, 2007 Posted October 12, 2007 Hi Lemon, and welcome. You've found a lot of things that don't add up about christianity. You're in good company. You'll find nonsense about stuff like hair and pants in quite a few churches, black and white alike. Not only that, but the pet taboos can differ from sect to sect or church to church (I even know one lady who claimed it was a sin to drink soda from a bottle). The line of crap from your pastor is shameful. Of course there's no way he could have a good answer for why he didn't punish non-xian cultures the world over. So what makes more sense: a flourishing slave industry tarnishing the world with its atrocities or this xian god arbitrarily singling out African pagans (who just happened to be an accessible target for the slave traders) for punishment? This was one of several waves of of abominable bloodshed and violence carried out under the auspices of the cross. It's ludicrous that the supposedly perfect and all Good bible god has the maturity of a six year old and has no compunctions about unleashing his torture on Job, not to mention what he did to Job's family. But it doesn't stop there! The bible, the OT in particular is loaded with god's escapades as a bloodthirsty tyrant. You look at healing, miracles, accounts of angels and demons. All you find are scams. Welcome to reality. The things you've noticed don't add up for a reason. If they had been true then they would have added up. Keep challenging, keep asking questions. There's not only a lot that doesn't make sense about god's morality, there's a crudload of stuff that doesn't align with science, that's inconsistent and/or contradictory within the bible, and that betrays obvious pagan roots of xianity. You have no retribution to fear from god, because it doesn't add up, it's simply not true. And reality can give us an opportunity to truly embrace life rather than living in fear-driven servitude to the whims of the church.
Dhampir Posted October 12, 2007 Posted October 12, 2007 It's like god, in that story, is the type of person who thinks one can replace children as readily as one might replace a hamster. And like the sudden replacement of full-grown adults with infants is some sort of reward! Fuckin' a, man! Even a child lover would have to be pissed off by that! Anyone else ever question the true value god places on human life by way of that story? That is why I hope this was meant to be a fictional story. I plan to have another child whom I will love forever. But he/she cannot replace the child I lost. Children cannot replace other children. From what I understand, the story of Job likely borrows from more ancient stories, but although it never happened of course and is therefore fictional, I see no reason to conclude that it was meant to be anything other than literal.
Ouroboros Posted October 12, 2007 Posted October 12, 2007 ...That is only a small part of my story and I hope I didn't bore anyone. Not at all. Awesome post, and welcome to our site. We can related to the things you say. And I can tell you a new world is about to open up for you. I can promise you it will not be easy (ouch!), because seing truth and seing the world the way it really is, is painful and can cause a lot of conflicts in your life, but it's also rewarding because you will feel free. The feeling (and it grows over time) is like you had a brain transplat and your head is working the way it should. It's like the world starts to make sense (even though religion doesn't)... If you know what I mean... I think Job is the oldest story in the Bible, and I suspect it has roots in pre-judaic religions.
pitchu Posted October 12, 2007 Posted October 12, 2007 Welcome, Lemon. You've been through way too much at the hands of ghouls. Rest here.
South2003 Posted October 12, 2007 Posted October 12, 2007 Lemon, WC to Ex! Yes, I remember being a part of the cult (Apostolic faith - Jesus only) and women were not allowed to adorn themselves in no way whatsoever! This included getting a damn pedicure :angry: Our heads had to be covered, dresses long and over our knees. I am a black female Atheist and for 18 yrs I lived in turmoil crippled with fear of a vengeful gawd. Sunday after Sunday what was preached from the pulpit was how this god is pissed off because of this and that but behind closed doors, these same self righteous, pew warmer, foaming at the mouth, tongue speaking, tribal dancing fundies lived a life that was disgraceful and scandalous. Their ethics was off the meter. I got sick of it all and with the "whys" coupled with my inquisitive mind I decided 3 yrs ago to let it go. The history of religion, the church and the fact that a god whatsoever didn’t do a damn thing to make it self known, drove the nails in the coffin for me. All my “whys†started adding up….there are No gods, never have, never will be. There is no holy spittle living inside of our cardiovascular system directing traffic in your life.
oladotun Posted October 12, 2007 Posted October 12, 2007 Hello Lemon, Your story is very interesting and one that I can relate to on so many levels, even though the particulars of my case may be a little different. I am a 35 year old black man who has become totally dissilusioned with religion (yes, including Christianity - even though I know Christians love to say "Christianity is not a religion, it is a relationship" but most of them say this to sound cute by trying to exclude themselves from being perpetrators of bondage which they are.) Before I continue, let me recommend a book called "Unchristian" by David Kinnaman. It may not change your mind about "god" but it will help you see that you are not alone in your feelings. The bottom line for me also came because I realzied that practically everything I had done as a saved, born-again, spirit-filled believer was motivated by fear . Fear fo hell, fear of falling out of favor with God, fear of losing blessings, fear of displeasing the church leadership and being called a heretic..fear, fear, fear. I started to question some of the wildly held beliefs that Christians hold to (like the question of why God allows suffering, if it is because of sin, then why did he let Job suffer? So don't give me that crap about all suffering is because of some hidden sin, because Job was supposed to be the most righteous man on earth)..I realized that Christians for the most part do not like to be challenged and when you point out contradictions in the Bible that don't make sense, they call you a heretic. Here I was at this church being counselled for my depression by a "minister" who admitted to me that he was gay (even though he was married) and still struggled with his sexuality (and his wife had no clue) but he had the audacity to get mad at me and "break off fellowship" with me because I told him that his explanation for what I should do in an oppressive job was ludicrous. He had told me that I should simply "thank God, because there are other people out there without jobs." I had just gotten this job, and the working conditions and bosses there were terrible, cussing out employees, making people work obsence hours even in over 100 degree heat. I told this minister who was giving me this advice that I know understood why people leave the church, hypocrirsy is one thing (living the life of a "straight man when you are actually gay and married and haven't even told your wife") but when Christians add this burden to people's already complicated lives, they do the people whom they are tryingto serve no justice at all. I asked him, "if a woman who had been praying for a husband for years finally got married only to realize that the man she married was a wife-beater, would you tell her to simly "thank God for her husband" because so many women out there aren't married?" When I told him this, he got mad, refused to talk to me anymore, and told me in an email that I was rude and taking his words out of context. I told him that I knew the real reason why he was mad was because I had exposed him for the phony person that he was - leading a minintry in church when he knew he was leading a lie as a closet gay man who was trying to act straight. And I asked him, if it is not a big deal, your gayness, why haven't you told your wife, but instead chosen to tell another man who is coming to you for help. He had no answer, but instead said that I was being rude..so he had to break off fellowship with me. Fundamentalistic Christianity is one of the biggest scams on out planet. It uses fear as its main tool. We get people scared that if they don't tithe, they will not be blessed, so they bring their money in droves. We make them scared that if they don't obey out rules (based upon the denominations interpratation of the Bible) they will go to hell, so they needlessly try and obey ..it goes on and on.. I have not gone to church in several months now. I have no desire to be there, because I don't have time for the pretense. Christians don't want the truth, they want what tickles their ears and their carnal desires..
Guest Tree of Life Posted October 21, 2007 Posted October 21, 2007 Lemon!! My sistah! Do you know how much I wish I had met another Black woman going through the process of "losing salvation" like we have? I wish I could give you a hug...I know I needed and NEED one now! I am soo soo sorry to hear of your loss. I don't know what stage you are at now, whether you give up on the whole God concept or not, so pardon me if I speak presumably. But I do truly believe that if ever there was a "devil", what you have been taught was this mythical creature's doing. If the "pit of hell" were ever real, Christianity as you and I knew it told us lies "from the pit of hell." I truly believe that the Creator, whomever or whatever you imagine this Deity to be, is not the condemning, critical, condescending a**hole from the Bible. You and I are from a strong people who have a destiny that Christianity cannot contain or explain. Your power and spirit far exceeds the teachings of the Bible, and as such, they fall drastically short. Hence is the problem. You are one of few whose spirit cannot be contained and restricted by lies and falsehoods. The path to truth is difficult and lonely. But it is worth it. If the Creator had a "design", it was for you to be free---and to live in beauty, truth, and complete PEACE. Find it where you can,and when you do, don't question it. Just take it,because that is the true purpose of life. I feel as though we are kindred spirits. I am soo uplifted by your testimony, although it has been an arduous journey for you. You need and deserve what Christianity didn't offer you. We both do.
pitchu Posted October 21, 2007 Posted October 21, 2007 I admit that I'm at a loss to know the cruelties and hardships (suffered under Christianity) that are particular to African-Americans. I want to know, though. It seems a little presumptuous of me to start a thread on this topic, but if anyone on this thread who has experienced that brand of insanity wants to start a thread, or wants to suggest that I do so, please know it would be helpful, always, to understand more.
lemon Posted October 22, 2007 Author Posted October 22, 2007 Thank you all for the warm welcome. Being able to admit to my true feelings regarding the bible is liberating indeed. Not sure that I can truly embrace atheism, but I'm not making a decision one way or the other right now.
ShackledNoMore Posted October 22, 2007 Posted October 22, 2007 Thank you all for the warm welcome. Being able to admit to my true feelings regarding the bible is liberating indeed. Not sure that I can truly embrace atheism, but I'm not making a decision one way or the other right now. There are many ex-c's who are not atheists. And the whole deconversion process--the time leading up to it, questioning, and the post-processing afterwards usually takes a lot longer than conversion. It just takes longer to use our minds to take on the tough questions than it does to be spoon fed prescribed answers from a church system.
michie_s Posted October 23, 2007 Posted October 23, 2007 Hey Lemon, Welcome to ex-c! I too am and black woman who has left xianity behind, although most of my family still adhere to the beliefs in some form or another. Yes..it has been a hard journey because the lies of xianity is so prevalent in the black community and is used to enslave and subjugate us even today - by our own much the less! I meet very few black people that are non-christian, so we are few but growing in number I hope. I can relate to the hair story as I wore locs for the last few years that I attended church and it was a constant struggle for it to be accepted as just an individual choice rather than a sign that I had backslid or had turned into a Rastafarian! Does "nappy" hair make you holier? I've been out just over 4 months now and let me tell you the freedom is unbelievable. No more stupid idiotic rules about our hair, clothing, dating, music, books, friends etc...etc...etc...! And most of all no need to depend on a invisible spirit to tell us how to think and direct every aspect of our lives. Having let go of one label I don't think you have to pick up another as yet. At first I did not know how to define myself and found much wisdom here about not feeling pressured to rush into anything. I too call myself indifferent although I'm leaning closer to atheism the longer I'm out of xianity and the more I learn what a sham it is. I'm truly sorry for your loss, and I hope that you will find the compassion and understanding needed to heal here. Know that you are among brothas, sistas and friends! Edit: Oops..almost forgot, welcome too Tree Of Life!
South2003 Posted October 23, 2007 Posted October 23, 2007 Welcome Lemon, I am a black female atheist whom after questioning gave up the cult all together. I didn't straddle the fence - I don't like to be lied to oh no! And what was most painful for me was to find out that there was no personal gawd looking after me when I was a child when I was sexually abused. The thoughts that went through my mind knowing that a "god" supposedly was watching while all this was happening, oh my and did nothing to prevent it. Three yrs ago, I posted my testimony on exchristian.net and a few fundies came on to testify (lol) of the love of dejesus (puke). Until I told them to go ask their god while it/she/he watched, what it/she/he was doing? They didn't come back. Put up or shut up is my mantra. Speaking about mega-chruches, I was in them all up my knees with the shit. The Crefllo Dollar, T.D. Jakes, Myers, Eddie Long (I'm getting a headache), Junita Byumn, just to name a few. It took me 18 yrs for me. I left the christian cult and it has now been 3 yrs since then. It was and still is ......the best decision I've made in my life. It was worth it! I refuse to have a system belittle me 1) as a woman 2) as a minority 3) as a human being. Hang in there and do come back and post some more. ~South2003~
lemon Posted October 23, 2007 Author Posted October 23, 2007 Welcome Lemon, I am a black female atheist whom after questioning gave up the cult all together. I didn't straddle the fence - I don't like to be lied to oh no! And what was most painful for me was to find out that there was no personal gawd looking after me when I was a child when I was sexually abused. The thoughts that went through my mind knowing that a "god" supposedly was watching while all this was happening, oh my and did nothing to prevent it. Three yrs ago, I posted my testimony on exchristian.net and a few fundies came on to testify (lol) of the love of dejesus (puke). Until I told them to go ask their god while it/she/he watched, what it/she/he was doing? They didn't come back. Put up or shut up is my mantra. Speaking about mega-chruches, I was in them all up my knees with the shit. The Crefllo Dollar, T.D. Jakes, Myers, Eddie Long (I'm getting a headache), Junita Byumn, just to name a few. It took me 18 yrs for me. I left the christian cult and it has now been 3 yrs since then. It was and still is ......the best decision I've made in my life. It was worth it! I refuse to have a system belittle me 1) as a woman 2) as a minority 3) as a human being. Hang in there and do come back and post some more. ~South2003~ The megachurches (and any type of church that preaches the same God's gonna do this for you garbage) are what I detest the most. You make an interesting point about the abuse and a god not preventing it (I was abused myself). It's the sitting and watching that bothers me the most. As for Juanita Bynum, look at the horror she is experiencing now...at the hands of her "bishop" of a husband. I am not saying this to make fun of her abuse, but to prove a point. What good does it do to be "equally yoked" as preached by many of these churches?
Guest Tree of Life Posted October 23, 2007 Posted October 23, 2007 Pitchu, great idea! I posted a forum entitled "Christianity and the African-American/Black experience under "Ex-Christian Life." For everyone to share and learn together about how religious dogmas can effect cultures differently.
oladotun Posted November 7, 2007 Posted November 7, 2007 Lemon!! My sistah! Do you know how much I wish I had met another Black woman going through the process of "losing salvation" like we have? I wish I could give you a hug...I know I needed and NEED one now! I am soo soo sorry to hear of your loss. I don't know what stage you are at now, whether you give up on the whole God concept or not, so pardon me if I speak presumably. But I do truly believe that if ever there was a "devil", what you have been taught was this mythical creature's doing. If the "pit of hell" were ever real, Christianity as you and I knew it told us lies "from the pit of hell." I truly believe that the Creator, whomever or whatever you imagine this Deity to be, is not the condemning, critical, condescending a**hole from the Bible. You and I are from a strong people who have a destiny that Christianity cannot contain or explain. Your power and spirit far exceeds the teachings of the Bible, and as such, they fall drastically short. Hence is the problem. You are one of few whose spirit cannot be contained and restricted by lies and falsehoods. The path to truth is difficult and lonely. But it is worth it. If the Creator had a "design", it was for you to be free---and to live in beauty, truth, and complete PEACE. Find it where you can,and when you do, don't question it. Just take it,because that is the true purpose of life. I feel as though we are kindred spirits. I am soo uplifted by your testimony, although it has been an arduous journey for you. You need and deserve what Christianity didn't offer you. We both do. It is interesting, because it seems like there are more and more black people out there who have "lost their salvation" but are scared to admit it publicly because of the stigma attached to being an atheist or agnostic...
lemon Posted November 7, 2007 Author Posted November 7, 2007 It is interesting, because it seems like there are more and more black people out there who have "lost their salvation" but are scared to admit it publicly because of the stigma attached to being an atheist or agnostic... It's true. Even my brother expresses relief at "letting go of God". I wasn't sure if it was his true feelings or PTSD (he was a marine with 2 tours in Iraq). But, he has recently passed all of his psych evaluations so he must be sincere about a lack of belief.
oladotun Posted November 8, 2007 Posted November 8, 2007 It is interesting, because it seems like there are more and more black people out there who have "lost their salvation" but are scared to admit it publicly because of the stigma attached to being an atheist or agnostic... It's true. Even my brother expresses relief at "letting go of God". I wasn't sure if it was his true feelings or PTSD (he was a marine with 2 tours in Iraq). But, he has recently passed all of his psych evaluations so he must be sincere about a lack of belief. Good for your brother. This is a common sentiment from those who have seen the horrors of war, I even read an article about it in a popular news magazine recently.
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