The O S A S Question

[R. S. Martin]

It seems a lot of people on these forums come from once saved always saved churches and their families say one of two things when they deconvert. Either they say:

 

1. You never were a true Christian, or

2. This is just a phase. You haven't deconverted.

 

At least, that is the connection I make. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm not sure what the text is for eternal security but I found one in my readings. The one this author gave is John 10:27-29:

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

²⁸

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any

man

pluck them out of my hand.

²⁹

My Father, which gave

them

me, is greater than all; and no

man

is able to pluck

them

out of my Father’s hand.

That passage says nothing about us choosing to walk away, or coming to the realization that the whole thing is bullshit. All it says is that Satan or the anti-Christ or some other enemy doesn't have the power to delude Christians against their will.

[Casey]

This may be a bad analogy, but suppose you had been a Nazi right from the start of the regime in Germany. You'd been through the lot, been blinded by the BS, mesmerised by the constantly repeated slogans and so on, to the point where you'd joined the Waffen SS. Now you fight in that outfit for 3 or 4 years and you have acquired all the signs and tokens of gang membership, all the orders and decorations you could want, including the Knight's Cross. However, even though you were blinded by the BS at the start, that same 3 or 4 years of combat has opened your eyes. You know the war can no longer be won, you know your Fuhrer is mad, and you know the General Staff knows it too. You also know the end is inevitable, no longer a matter of "if" but "when".

 

Yet you have to keep these nagging doubts to yourself. It would be funny if it weren't so serious. If you were to voice any of these doubts to any still-convinced Nazi but a fellow veteran (and even they can't all be trusted), guess what they would say? Some jumped-up fanatic without even a single combat decoration would just say, "You were never a True Nazi to begin with!" And whatever you might say would make no difference whatsoever, they would keep saying exactly that until you were dancing at the end of a rope. It's rather understandable if you would prefer to keep your mouth shut and soldier on, isn't it? Which is of course why so many did just that, right to the bitter end.

 

Now flip forward sixty-odd years. Although you as a christian don't have any of the orders and decorations mentioned above of course, you still have the same conviction of sin, the same conversion, the same "gifts of the spirit", etc etc etc. Although you are not at all a military veteran you have experienced the christian life and over the course of time, you have found it to be based on bunkum. All those "experiences" you've had, all those "gifts of the spirit" are merely illusions brought on by careful manipulation when you were vulnerable to such techniques.

 

Of course if you voice your doubts, your erstwhile fellow cult members will say, "Oh, you were never a True Christian anyway". Again it makes no difference what you say. They mightn't kill you but you will be ostracized, made into an outcast, perhaps even disinherited. This prospect is just as bad as death to many believers, so again, is it any wonder they prefer to shut their mouths and soldier on?

Casey

[Ex-COG]

It seems a lot of people on these forums come from once saved always saved churches and their families say one of two things when they deconvert. Either they say:

 

1. You never were a true Christian, or

2. This is just a phase. You haven't deconverted.

 

At least, that is the connection I make. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm not sure what the text is for eternal security but I found one in my readings. The one this author gave is John 10:27-29:

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

²⁸

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any

man

pluck them out of my hand.

²⁹

My Father, which gave

them

me, is greater than all; and no

man

is able to pluck

them

out of my Father’s hand.

That passage says nothing about us choosing to walk away, or coming to the realization that the whole thing is bullshit. All it says is that Satan or the anti-Christ or some other enemy doesn't have the power to delude Christians against their will.

My church did not teach the doctrine of eternal security. They held the belief that God gave us free will to the extent that we were totally free to turn our backs on Jesus. It's true that, as in the verse you quoted, no man could pry you from your position in Christ, but as you point out it doesn't prohibit someone freely walking away on their own.

 

I've always wondered when, how and where the doctrine of eternal security was formed. I know that most Baptists believed in it, but I don't know if that belief was with them from their earliest years or was introduced later, just as the rapture teaching was adopted by most Baptists in the late 1800's/early 1900's.

[R. S. Martin]

Casey, I see your point but I think it comes from a certain world view only. Like Ex-COG, I come from a church that strongly believes that the once-saved-always-saved doctrine is heresy, a false doctrine straight from the devil himself, designed to lead people astray. A false security.

 

My eyes have been opened since I'm on these forums. Apparently it's not so secure after all for deep thinkers and genuine conscientious people. Like Ex-COG, I'm not sure what scripture it's based on. And if it's based on the text I quoted in the OP, then no one can rightfully make the argument that it's impossible to leave.

 

The argument Casey presents can be made only on mad emotionalism if you ask me. I intentionally insert the word mad because the only way it would be possible for me to arrive at such a conclusion would be if I was so raving mad that I couldn't think straight and wouldn't care who I hurt and that would be beyond extreme. I'm thinking of your True Nazi analogy. I would have to practically be out of my mind. And that is the literal meaning of mad, I think.

 

However, if people were never presented with any other way of thinking, and never made a habit of critically thinking about anything they were told to believe about the world and reality and God, they would probably not have to be in sure dire straights to come to such outrageous conclusions. They never learned to discipline their brain in the first place and have little intellectual control to lose. Perhaps the argument can be made that such people operate on mad emotionalism as a norm--I don't know. I wouldn't want to be in their skin for any price. I like to be awake and aware. And knowledgeable.

[mwc]

That passage says nothing about us choosing to walk away, or coming to the realization that the whole thing is bullshit. All it says is that Satan or the anti-Christ or some other enemy doesn't have the power to delude Christians against their will.

But if we apply the parable of the prodigal son then you may never really walk away either. You might just be on a bit of a walkabout. You are backslidden and still a xian despite what you like to tell yourself. This makes it impossible to ever be truly apostate. The hope is that you return before you meet your ultimate demise.

 

mwc

[R. S. Martin]

Perhaps there are different interpetations of the story of the Prodigal Son. He was gone for a significant period of time. During that time he was lost to the family. If he had died during that time he would have been lost. Yet....

 

His brother knew what kind of life he had led while away from the family. So the family must have known where he was. Thus he wasn't totally lost never to be heard of, it seems. But he was lost to them in that he was not in communication with them. He was not in their social or business circles. If he had died in that state, I am quite sure my former church would have been convinced that he would have gone to hell. And in the regular Greco-Roman family he would probably have been lost to the family as well in more levels than just death. More on this below.

 

There is a verse in Mark 3 about blaspheming the Holy Spirit:

 

²⁸

Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

²⁹

But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation

This verse has been discussed at some length on these forums. For those who don't know, some people have taken this as the Blasphemy Challenge and intentionally blasphemed the holy spirit in order to liberate themselves from religion. For those people who say it is impossible to deconvert, I don't know how they will deal with that. I guess they will argue that you never were a true Christian to start off with. QUESTION: Why did the Holy Spirit delude them into thinking you were if you really weren't? Must be that they don't have the Holy Spirit either. BUT....

 

There is also a verse about the person who has tasted the glories of the kingdom of heaven and turns his back on them; it would be better for that person never to have been born than to backslide. I think that is how that verse goes. Here it is in Hebrews 6--I see I had the wording a bit off:

 

⁴

For

it is

impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

⁵

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

⁶

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put

him

to an open shame.

⁷

For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by

^#_ftn1

whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 

⁸

But that which beareth thorns and briers

is

rejected, and

is

nigh unto cursing; whose end

is

to be burned.

There is no room for doubt. The person who rejects the salvation through Jesus is as bad as the earth that dares bring forth thorns and briars after all the care the gardener gives it. That person is fit only to burn in hell just like the thorny briars on the trash heap.

 

It's pretty darn clear that it is possible to have at one time been a True Christian Trade Mark, and then to deconvert completely. Christians who say otherwise obviously haven't read their Bibles or cherry pick like crazy. Maybe they just explain away what they don't like. It's there--in black and white.

 

Back to the Prodigal Son. People who want to use that as their proof text for how we can't get out of our families might want to educate themselves about the rules of dignity of the Pater Familias of the Greco Roman head of the family. Pater Familias was the father of the family, head of the household. The way Jesus describes the one in the story of the prodigal son makes him out to be totally silly--a bit touched in the head, so to speak. And I guess that's the point of the story. Talk about being the fool for Christ.

 

The real life Pater Familias wasn't like that. He was a dignified Man who had been trained from early childhood how to be a Man. How to run a household complete with slaves. This had to be done in a way that would not provoke subordinates to rebel, but would rather make them want to serve you and also allow you to get all you could out of them. You had to treat them right. You had to exercise your authority. With dignity. With tact. Authoritatively.

 

He would NOT hitch up his skirts, run like a kid to meet his son while he was yet a far off, and hug him and slobber all over his face, then have an impromptu feast for him before he even apologizes for his immature behaviour, frivilous spending, and ignoble return. I side with the older son who complained about the unfair treatment. He had reason to be ashamed and angry with his father. Dad never appreciated him. But when precious baby brother comes slinking back things start to happen. Yeah right.

 

In the family of the regular dignified Pater Familias, I think we can imagine family members being excommunicated as described in 1 Cor. 5. The Prodigal Son would probably have had to be grateful if he were allowed a position as servant with his father, as he anticipated in the story of the Prodigal Son. And if he had died in his life of wantoness he would have probably not been owned. If he had been given a position as servant, would he have been officially and legally owned? I doubt it. He would probably not have had part of the legal inheritance. I suspect this was a major part of the obedience son's disgruntlement.

 

If Dad treated his baby brother this way immediately upon his return, he would be sure to include him in his will despite having already given him his share. What's more, the older son may have worked toward property improvement during his brother's absence to enhance his own inheritance. Now this.

 

This would complicate life for the older son, perhaps for life. Had this younger brother died while gone, he would have disappeared from memory. He would have been as though he had never existed. After the old man died, perhaps he would have been taken off the records. Unless the old man, who seems to be an unpredictable person, had made some stipulation in his will. This is guesswork on my part. I am not quite sure exactly what obligations they performed to the dead but there were some.

[mwc]

His brother knew what kind of life he had led while away from the family. So the family must have known where he was. Thus he wasn't totally lost never to be heard of, it seems. But he was lost to them in that he was not in communication with them. He was not in their social or business circles. If he had died in that state, I am quite sure my former church would have been convinced that he would have gone to hell. And in the regular Greco-Roman family he would probably have been lost to the family as well in more levels than just death. More on this below.

Maybe it falls into that "god knows all things" category? So even though the guy was gone they still knew what was going on? The all-seeing narrator allows that.

 

 

This verse has been discussed at some length on these forums. For those who don't know, some people have taken this as the Blasphemy Challenge and intentionally blasphemed the holy spirit in order to liberate themselves from religion.

Not even xians know what it is to "blaspheme" the HS though. And, you're right, they quickly pull the "not a xian" card. The HS isn't the one that fooled you. I'm guessing it was you/Satan that deluded you.

 

I just knew you'd pull Hebrews out...

Hebrews 6

[snip]

There is no room for doubt. The person who rejects the salvation through Jesus is as bad as the earth that dares bring forth thorns and briars after all the care the gardener gives it. That person is fit only to burn in hell just like the thorny briars on the trash heap.

But when it comes to a contradiction who wins?

 

As for all you said on Pater families, I'd have to say that it does fit the theology, depending on the view but mostly we want to show that "god" is a nice guy that is pining for us (before he judges and burns a large percentage of us). As far as outside reading is concerned I remember reading some early xian writings that have people falling away but they are told that they can repent as long as the church doesn't fully form while they are in a sinful state (otherwise there's no more chances). Paul also speaks of how his little churches keep falling away from his teachings while he, and his, are away but he allows them to reform too.

 

mwc

[lemon]

There is a verse in Mark 3 about blaspheming the Holy Spirit:

 

²⁸

Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

²⁹

But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation

This verse has been discussed at some length on these forums. For those who don't know, some people have taken this as the Blasphemy Challenge and intentionally blasphemed the holy spirit in order to liberate themselves from religion. For those people who say it is impossible to deconvert, I don't know how they will deal with that. I guess they will argue that you never were a true Christian to start off with. QUESTION: Why did the Holy Spirit delude them into thinking you were if you really weren't? Must be that they don't have the Holy Spirit either. BUT....

 

In all honesty, I laugh at the blasphemy challenge because to me, it is simply hilarious. Of course, I am not trying to insult anyone who has taken the "challenge". But from what I gather from all the verses concerning it, one would have to be faced with undeniable proof before they could possibly blaspheme the holy spirit.

 

Regarding OSAS, that doctrine is something that I only heard of recently believe it or not? Could it have something to do with xtians making excuses for unchristian behavior...i.e. sin all you like, you are under grace, always saved.

[lemon]

There is a verse in Mark 3 about blaspheming the Holy Spirit:

 

²⁸

Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

²⁹

But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation

This verse has been discussed at some length on these forums. For those who don't know, some people have taken this as the Blasphemy Challenge and intentionally blasphemed the holy spirit in order to liberate themselves from religion. For those people who say it is impossible to deconvert, I don't know how they will deal with that. I guess they will argue that you never were a true Christian to start off with. QUESTION: Why did the Holy Spirit delude them into thinking you were if you really weren't? Must be that they don't have the Holy Spirit either. BUT....

 

"In all honesty, I laugh at the blasphemy challenge because to me, it is simply hilarious. Of course, I am not trying to insult anyone who has taken the "challenge". But from what I gather from all the verses concerning it, one would have to be faced with undeniable proof before they could possibly blaspheme the holy spirit.

 

Regarding OSAS, that doctrine is something that I only heard of recently believe it or not? Could it have something to do with xtians making excuses for unchristian behavior...i.e. sin all you like, you are under grace, always saved."

 

Apologies, I just placed quotes around what I posted.

[Mythra]

During my (long) affliction with christianity, I attended various churches that took (vehement) stands on both sides of the OSAS - aka UES (Unconditional Eternal Security) issue. Seems like there was more than ample scriptural support for both positions. (typical of the unchanging, uncompromising, uncontradictory WORD OF GOD).

 

Here are a few more verses that were used to support OSAS:

 

Hebrews 10:10- And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

 

1 Peter 1: 3-5 - Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade

 

Romans 8:38 - For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

Just get your name written down in the Lamb's Book of Life, and you're home free.

 

But, of course, God being God - knew we were going to eventually turn on him - so he never wrote our name in there to begin with.

 

Which brings me to reiterate a salient point - GOD TOOK MY MONEY UNDER FALSE PRETENSES. I want a refund.

[mwc]

Just get your name written down in the Lamb's Book of Life, and you're home free.

 

But, of course, God being God - knew we were going to eventually turn on him - so he never wrote our name in there to begin with.

Sure he did. He just keeps two sets of books.

 

mwc