Paranormal Experiences...what Do You Think?

[PoeticLicence]

I'm a de-converting Christian, a skeptic and a person with a strange, seemingly paranormal experience. In my coming out process, I find the situation that I experienced has thrown a bit of a wrench in the works. Although I'm not opposed to the idea that other realms may well exist without a god to govern them, I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around what happened and the implications of it ... or even if there are any.

 

I've attached a brief explanation of what happened and would appreciate thoughtful dialog.

StrangeExperience.doc

[Jun]

Most interesting.

 

Have you been to the American Association of Electronic Voice Phenomena? Here - http://www.aaevp.com/

 

Or perhpas check out Etheric studies - http://etheric-studies.aaevp.com/

[HuaiDan]

Let's do away with that word 'paranormal' and just stick to a word that will make it all easier to grasp, 'metaphysics'. Metaphysics is just physics we don't understand yet. Ever hear of 'God of the Gaps'? Let me give you an example. Things like lightening and mental illness were, in ages past, attributed to the anger of the gods, and possession by evil spirits, respectively. The realm of god was the realm of the gaps in man's understanding of the natural universe. Those gaps keep shrinking as man's understanding grows, much to the consternation of religionists everywhere. The spirit realm grows more and more impotent as we are empowered by reason and logic.

[Jun]

I agree with HuaiDan.

[PoeticLicence]

Most interesting.

 

Have you been to the American Association of Electronic Voice Phenomena? Here - http://www.aaevp.com/

 

Or perhpas check out Etheric studies - http://etheric-studies.aaevp.com/

 

Thanks.... I just went and poked around both of these sites for a few minutes during coffee. I'll dig further later today and I appreciate you posting them.

[PoeticLicence]

The spirit realm grows more and more impotent as we are empowered by reason and logic.

 

I was with your post right up until that last phrase. The BogeyMan certainly has experienced his share of impotence as little boys have gained the courage to look behind closet doors and under beds to find nothing but hockey sticks and dust bunnies. However, in woman's quest for knowledge and understanding over the ages, with her numerous attempts at accurate celestial and spiritual nomenclature, the human race still finds itself asking the same, age old questions. Only now, with the advance of technology, sometimes when we ask these questions, we seem to pick up inexplicable recordings from this odd somewhere/someplace called a "god gap".

 

I'm afraid I don't see how reason and logic (whom I court on a regular basis) make this realm any less there, any less real, or any less captured on my hand held recorder. Might reason and logic, with further exploration, only help to somehow connect with a realm that, while defies our PRESENT logic, may indeed find a home in a new and advanced metaphysical logic?

 

(I appreciate your post. Well done. I am welcome further dialog.)

[Piprus]

At this point you simply may not have enough information for an explanation, other than old clocks can do strange things. No pendulum attached, but a wound-up spring? Worn gears? Vibrations from all the people in the room, enough to trip a worn mechanism that had been wound up and idle for a long time, straining against itself? Just possibilities....but no proof of anything unnatural.

[R. S. Martin]

First, confession: I haven't had time to read the attachment but I read the posts. I think Piprus has an excellent answer.

 

Through formal courses in various disciplines I searched diligently for evidence of the existence of God. (That was after forty years of attending church regularly and reading the Bible since about age ten and coming up totally empty.) For a few years I thought I was onto something. The numinous in Rudolph Otto held promise. However, over time it did not hold. Then I read about the "God spot" on the brain that can be stimulated to artificially produce religious experiences without drugs. Other evidence convinces me that some people can stimulate this spot at will, and that religious ritual stimulates it for the majority of the human population, regardless of religion. That freed me up to deconvert from god belief.

 

Another thought also occurred to me, that has also been mentioned in this thread. Very many things that in the past have been attributed to God have been explained by science so that we now know there are natural reasons for them rather than supernatural. There is no reason to think that there won't be natural explanations for the few remaining items in the future.

 

I'm afraid I don't see how reason and logic (whom I court on a regular basis) make this realm any less there, any less real, or any less captured on my hand held recorder. Might reason and logic, with further exploration, only help to somehow connect with a realm that, while defies our PRESENT logic, may indeed find a home in a new and advanced metaphysical logic?

 

Yes, but I think there will be a natural explanation for it.

[SWIM]

Well, I have an earthly explanation that you may not like:

 

It was blanketed in dust a quarter inch thick and dead as a freakin’ door knob. He removed the back panel to show that the pendulum wasn’t even attached anymore. Yep. Dead we concluded. Dead, that is, til we began to photograph it. A couple flashes of the bulb and bong! It starting chiming as we stood!

 

When the back was opened, the temperature and air pressure equalized with the room. The dust forming a effective "seal" trapped the air PSI an humidity level from the last time it was opened, which in all probability was quite different.

 

Like old music boxes ( a favorite among ghost stories), the springs can retain tension. A DRAMATIC change in temp. or humidity, can cause micro movement, triggering a more encompassing movement. Range of movement may be limited by the springs, rusted cogs in the gears etc etc.

 

"The simplest explanation is most commonly the most probable explanation."

 

Tremors in the woods floors (common in old houses) can also trigger micro movement, that explains the " I was walking by it when suddenly etc etc.

 

Food for thought.

[Guest oldblackeyes]

Are you sure you aren't just being had, that seems like the most likely explanation to me. Also I think youre likely to be more suggestible at the moment. You said yourself you were pretty emotional and I think its pretty natural to be looking for something to fill the gaping hole x-tianity leaves behind.

[HuaiDan]

The spirit realm grows more and more impotent as we are empowered by reason and logic.

 

 

 

I'm afraid I don't see how reason and logic (whom I court on a regular basis) make this realm any less there, any less real, or any less captured on my hand held recorder. Might reason and logic, with further exploration, only help to somehow connect with a realm that, while defies our PRESENT logic, may indeed find a home in a new and advanced metaphysical logic?

 

(I appreciate your post. Well done. I am welcome further dialog.)

Reason and logic take away the realm's sovereignty. The landscape may be real or imaginary, but when illuminated by the light of reason, a whole new picture emerges. Certainly fear of the unknown isn't a realistic worldview. Skeptical caution is much better.

[dr_funkenstein]

Without knowing the first thing about string theory, I wonder whether it supports the idea that consciousness can exist as another dimension of the universe, and perhaps phenomena such as ghosts, telepathy, etc are functions of consciousness crossing over other dimensions such as space and time.

 

Meh I'm just dreaming really.

[HuaiDan]

Without knowing the first thing about string theory, I wonder whether it supports the idea that consciousness can exist as another dimension of the universe, and perhaps phenomena such as ghosts, telepathy, etc are functions of consciousness crossing over other dimensions such as space and time.

 

Meh I'm just dreaming really.

Now there's a hypothesis that can be tested by real or thought experimentation. Perhaps, yes, metaphysical phenomena might be examples of perception transcending the normal 4 dimensions we experience, reaching into the 5th and 6th dimension. Exactly how might we test this?

[Guest Marty]

Not sure what to make of your story. I can say that as far as the recording goes, that mystifies me. Could you maybe post a clip of the phrases?

 

Microphones are only designed to 'hear' the same frequencies as humans, that is 20Hz to 20,000Hz. Cheap dictation mics (like what you were probaly using) will be most sensitive to the speech range, between 400Hz and 8kHz. A mic is nothing more than a thin diaphram that converts changing air pressure into a small voltage.

 

You said you were using tape to record this interview? It was not a mini disc or similar digital recorder? A tape recorder takes the voltage supplied by the mic and converts it into an analogous magnetic field that changes in response to the changing voltage. As the tape runs by the head, the magnetic field re-alligns the iron particles on the tape to match the field at that point in time. If you heard no whispering in the room at the time of the recording, then that sound was not part of the changing air pressure the mic picked up.

 

Cassettes (especially mini cassettes) have terrible specs as far as fidelity goes. In fact cassettes are the worst out of any consumer medium yet. It has a terrible noise floor and the tape moves so slowly (REALLY slow in mini cassettes) that getting anything recorded clearly is almost impossible using stock components. Some soft sound recorded inside the noise floor (maybe some family members whispering something in the next room?) may be played back distorted in some way or have most of the identifing aspects masked by the hiss and room noise. What you heard (or think you heard) could be any number of anolomies common to anaolg tape. My first guess is that it is what is called "print through".

 

Because tape is wound on top of itself, what you just heard is wound on top of what was heard right before that, on and on untill the end of the tape. Tape is designed to be magneticly sensitive, so sounds can "jump over" to other layers of tape if things are recorded loud enough. It will sound soft and far away, and is often garbled or distorted in some way, because what you are hearing is not the whole sound, just parts of it that were "strong" enough to skip over a layer or two of mylar backing.

 

If you listen to the Led Zeppelin song "Whole Lotta Love" at the breakdown at the end, you can hear an example of some print through on Plant's Voice. The lines "way down inside/Woman, you need it" come before the actual line as sung by Plant, because the tape was stored rewound to the top. Since it is quiet in this section, you hear the print through. They must have liked it, because they amplified it and drowned it in effects.

 

This was a professional recording on great analog gear, so it may be a poor example of what you heard captured on cassette tape with a dictation microphone, but I think it shows how analog tape can act in strange, sometimes "ghostly" ways. There are of course a few other things that could have happened with the recorder, maybe even a combination of a few. Without hearing what you heard, I'm only guessing.

 

 

EDIT:

 

Where the print though happens is also dependent on how fast the tape is traveling. The Led Zep song was most likely recorded at 15 inches per second, although it may have been at 30 ips. It was a "happy accident" that it happened in time to the music. The slower the speed, the farther away from the "parent" sound the ghost can be. Cassettes have a standard play speed of 1 7/8 ips (special dictation machines may run slower) and mini cassettes at 0.937 ips! The faster the tape goes, the better high frequency info gets recorded, and better general overall sound quality, due to more iron oxide encoding the voltage.

[Jun]

How interesting Marty. Would you have an opinion on EVP recordings and the Association of EVP?

[PoeticLicence]

All these theories here are wonderful! Much food for thought.

 

My first thought is that we all may possibly share in common an underlying, and perhaps subconscious link in our heads from a possible "spirit" or other realm to the necessity of a god. Don't be offended. It's just a thought. What I'd like to suggest, and quite possibly another poster touched on this, that maybe it is possible to have another realm and even entities living there and still have no god. After all, if we humans can evolve and live on this planet without one, who's to say another realm isn't the same in that regard. Might it have evolved as well?

 

Bottom line is, there are voices on that dang tape and I insist upon claiming my sanity. If I could figure out how, I'd put it on here for you to hear it although I suspect your arguments or offerings would remain the same. It could be that there ARE voices on that tape and that there IS another realm that we are largely ignorant to, (although suspect of) and that there is still no god governing it. No god creating it. No god maintaining it and yet exists and frankly, I don't think that should threaten any belief system that has eradicated itself of a god. In fact, just the opposite! It opens up the universe even more.

 

Seems to me that as I continue through my de-conversion, I'm finding that a life with NO god has significantly more infinite possibilities. I truly don't want to trade one "box" type thinking (my xtian box) for another just as restricting box...that is now simply transformed to an non-theist one. This I am speaking only to myself. No one need read into it that I'm pointing my bony little finger at anyone find themselves in a snit.

 

You've all shed light in one way or another here.... YAY! It truly is fun to think outside of my old box ... but I'm just now learning it!

[godlessgrrl]

I suspect that EVP is a form of pareidolia.

 

Human brains are hard-wired to recognize patterns, particularly faces (but not only faces). The tendency is so ingrained that we find patterns even where they don't actually exist: in woodgrain on doors, in grilled cheese sandwiches, and in white noise on . It doesn't mean one is crazy by any means; to the contrary, I'd probably take it as a sign that my brain was working just fine.

 

As for explanations of ghosts or other odd phenomena, I suspect that such things have more to do with human biochemistry interacting with ubiquitous EM energy than with any actual supernatural realm. I suppose paranormal entities are possible, but until I see conclusive, empiric, reproducible evidence of their existence, I'm satisfied to explain the cause of weird happenings with the phrase "I don't know" or "nobody knows yet."

 

Your mileage may vary.

[PoeticLicence]

Ok... not THAT seems to make sense to me. I'd been pondering this just yesterday ... although i didn't know this had a name. Now I know. You know those hidden pictures with images drawn in? I can do those in a snap. What puzzles me is that every one else who's heard these recordings hears what I hear. That's the only thing that snags me in this explanation. But as I said, it makes the most sense to me thus far.

[Rev R]

Pareidolia seems like the most plausible explanation for EVP. Of course there is also the possibility of hoaxing.

 

Other phenomena such as hauntings and apparitions. Well I'm sure that folks are experiencing something but I'm not so quick to buy into the explanations given. I find it quite humorous that skeptics are often told that they need to be more open minded, that this phenomena is unexplained. Yet often in the next couple of sentences the "believer" will give a clear and definitive explanation.

[dr_funkenstein]

Without knowing the first thing about string theory, I wonder whether it supports the idea that consciousness can exist as another dimension of the universe, and perhaps phenomena such as ghosts, telepathy, etc are functions of consciousness crossing over other dimensions such as space and time.

 

Meh I'm just dreaming really.

Now there's a hypothesis that can be tested by real or thought experimentation. Perhaps, yes, metaphysical phenomena might be examples of perception transcending the normal 4 dimensions we experience, reaching into the 5th and 6th dimension. Exactly how might we test this?

 

There was a small study done on the idea of telephone telepathy - the feeling you get when the telephone rings and you know who's calling.

 

Here's an article about the study.

 

Perhaps more studies could be done of this nature showing that the consciousness of an individual can be linked to a group consciousness.

 

Theoretically, our brains and the neurochemical activity that goes on inside them are the mechanics behind a phenomenon we all experience as consciousness. What I'm suggesting is that consciousness is a special thing in the universe, and that it may exist as a plane or dimension, just like spatial dimensions and time. If this were the case, then one could posit that the consciousness of an individual is in fact linked to the consciousness of a group, and that the more closely interrelated any two given individuals are (because of shared experience, shared thought - who knows?) the more prominent the link can be.

 

When we see schools of fish and flocks of birds moving as a unit, could it not suggest that on some level that group of individuals is in fact functioning as a unit? Even in our own bodies, our cells can be seen as individual units, and yet we group them together and think of this conglomeration of cells as "me", and we have a singular consciousness that governs them. Might not the same idea apply on a larger scale?

 

I really wish I understood more about string theory and quantum mechanics because maybe in those fields of study lies the key to understanding the nature of consciousness.

[Jun]

I suspect that EVP is a form of pareidolia.

 

Human brains are hard-wired to recognize patterns, particularly faces (but not only faces). The tendency is so ingrained that we find patterns even where they don't actually exist: in woodgrain on doors, in grilled cheese sandwiches, and in white noise on . It doesn't mean one is crazy by any means; to the contrary, I'd probably take it as a sign that my brain was working just fine.

 

As for explanations of ghosts or other odd phenomena, I suspect that such things have more to do with human biochemistry interacting with ubiquitous EM energy than with any actual supernatural realm. I suppose paranormal entities are possible, but until I see conclusive, empiric, reproducible evidence of their existence, I'm satisfied to explain the cause of weird happenings with the phrase "I don't know" or "nobody knows yet."

 

Your mileage may vary.

 

I did not know that there was a name for it. Cool. It was a thought that had crossed my mind.

[PoeticLicence]

If we're onto something with the concept of a collective consciousness, that would - at least to some extent - explain that sense of knowing when we come in connection with another person who poses a threat or just doesn't quite seem right. It might explain, so called, "Words of Knowledge" that we ex-charismatics liked to say was the voice of God or the "gift of discernment. I wish you knew more about this stuff, too! So you could explain it to me!!

[SWIM]

If we're onto something with the concept of a collective consciousness, that would - at least to some extent - explain that sense of knowing when we come in connection with another person who poses a threat or just doesn't quite seem right. It might explain, so called, "Words of Knowledge" that we ex-charismatics liked to say was the voice of God or the "gift of discernment. I wish you knew more about this stuff, too! So you could explain it to me!!

 

 

The collective consciousness theory scares me very much. If, due to unknown scientific reasons, there is a mass telepathy on some subconscious level that influences us all, then the majority belief becomes reality. In other words, if the whole world thinks you are going to hell, well, there you go pitchfork and all, because the power of the *collective" alone created it. Also an apparition like the *devil* would also be called into existence.

 

But then again, if there *was* a collective consciousness, the force of this power alone would have instigated a one world religion by now, the power of the many overcoming the will of the few. So it is this reason that I don't think the theory has merit. Of course, I am speaking of a collective consciousness triggered by and energized by *living* human minds, not dead folks.