Jubilant Posted October 16, 2007 Posted October 16, 2007 If we are to believe the Christian myth, one can conclude that its God was HOPING that his earthly creation would do better than the mess he created in heaven. Why not have created Jesus in heaven...oh, thats right, Jesus is God. If God is all-knowing (as evangelicals believe), knowing that there would be a rebellion in heaven...why create the rebellious angels in the first place?
Mythra Posted October 16, 2007 Posted October 16, 2007 Isn't it funny? Some of these questions never came up when we were christians. How many times did you read the Genesis account of the flood - and read that God regretted he had made mankind. And never once did it occur to us that it would not be possible for a God who knew every detail of the past, present and future to suffer regret. Same thing the with fall of Satan from heaven. The guy turned on God - evidently surprising God in the process - and got kicked out of heaven along with 1/3 of all the angels. I find it odd that we swallowed such things and never critically looked at them. Even if you take the fall of Satan account to be a metaphor, it still is contradictory to the idea that yahweh knows the end from the beginning.
Ouroboros Posted October 17, 2007 Posted October 17, 2007 I think the big question is: Does God regret creating Satan?
☆ TexasFreethinker ☆ Posted October 17, 2007 Posted October 17, 2007 I have similar questions about heaven... Is god going to take away the free will of those who go to heaven? If not, why is everyone going to start behaving (and stop all sinning) in heaven when everyone sins on earth? If god has to take away free will to guarantee a sinless heaven won't he just have a bunch of robots worshipping him up there? And if he's going to end up with a bunch of robot worshippers for eternity why did he allow free will for six thousand years (a blip in eternity) on earth knowing that he was just going to have to take it away again?
Deva Posted October 17, 2007 Posted October 17, 2007 "If god has to take away free will to guarantee a sinless heaven won't he just have a bunch of robots worshipping him up there? " Would the robots ever know they didn't have free will?
Jubilant Posted October 17, 2007 Author Posted October 17, 2007 Damn, TFT, you posted almost exactly what was going through my mind this morning...coincidence or a *divine* message? LOL My thoughts were also along the lines of...if examined critically (as Mythra pointed out, something most of us did not do while Christians) how are Angels any different then Jesus? Wouldn't they have been *bred* from God himself? Sons of God? Yet they supposedly sinned? No human interference to fuck it all up in heaven. This is supposed to be a place where troubles do not exist, where there is peace? Yet there was a war? Of course, we ALL know NOW that the whole story of Satan's Fall is a complete misinterpretation of Isaiah 14 in that it is about the Babylonian King.
Jubilant Posted October 17, 2007 Author Posted October 17, 2007 I think the big question is: Does God regret creating Satan? Yeah, really...nothing in the Buybull about that one! I find it odd that we swallowed such things and never critically looked at them. Even if you take the fall of Satan account to be a metaphor, it still is contradictory to the idea that yahweh knows the end from the beginning. Me too Mythra. It is beyond contradictory for that matter...at least IMHO.
Robbobrob Posted October 17, 2007 Posted October 17, 2007 Satan sinned, so sin is possible in Heaven. Therefore God can be in the presence of sin. Interesting. There is no safe place in all the universe, physical or spiritual, that does not have good and bad things happen.
L.B. Posted October 17, 2007 Posted October 17, 2007 There are all kinds of instances in the Bible where: Almighty 'god' acts just like the gods of other pantheons Almighty 'god' gets blindsided by things an omniscient being would have seen Almighty 'god' seems to have the same geo-political and military goals as any earthly nomadic warring tribe Fact is, the bible, upon re-reading it several times more since deconverting, always looks more and more like the Bronze-Age OT superstition and religio-political NT dominionism and syncretism that have been shown to be the actual historical realities. Funny how so many people want to believe that the bible of the Xtians is somehow filled with all the perfect and over-achieving examples of faith, yet the real world of ours today is so far short of that. BZZZZT! Wrong! Thanks for playing... the biblegod and his cronies are the perfect mirror image of the shit that exists today in biblegod's name, and vice versa.
Robbobrob Posted October 17, 2007 Posted October 17, 2007 So below, so above. Same shit, different plane of existence.
mwc Posted October 17, 2007 Posted October 17, 2007 Same thing the with fall of Satan from heaven. The guy turned on God - evidently surprising God in the process - and got kicked out of heaven along with 1/3 of all the angels. No, no, no... "Thy will be done. On earth as it is in heaven." His will is always done in heaven. The rebellion and fall was his will. He willed Satan to puff up with pride. He willed Satan to lead a rebellion against him. He willed Satan to be defeated. He willed Satan and his followers to fall. He willed them into our domain. He willed the most dangerous creature(s) ever to exist into existing and then he willed them into the same residence as the two most innocent creatures ever created and did not warn them. He put the hungry snake in with the little white mice to watch what would happen...then blames the white mice. mwc
Robbobrob Posted October 17, 2007 Posted October 17, 2007 Same thing the with fall of Satan from heaven. The guy turned on God - evidently surprising God in the process - and got kicked out of heaven along with 1/3 of all the angels. No, no, no... "Thy will be done. On earth as it is in heaven." His will is always done in heaven. The rebellion and fall was his will. He willed Satan to puff up with pride. He willed Satan to lead a rebellion against him. He willed Satan to be defeated. He willed Satan and his followers to fall. He willed them into our domain. He willed the most dangerous creature(s) ever to exist into existing and then he willed them into the same residence as the two most innocent creatures ever created and did not warn them. He put the hungry snake in with the little white mice to watch what would happen...then blames the white mice. mwc Blaming the victim....Serves Adam and Eve right running around in the all-together. Course, they were fine UNTIL they realized their mistake, and tried to cover themselves...only proves God is a pervert.
South2003 Posted October 17, 2007 Posted October 17, 2007 If God is all-knowing (as evangelicals believe), knowing that there would be a rebellion in heaven...why create the rebellious angels in the first place? When I was a fundie, I asked the same questions along those lines. All I got was: “Well, the Iceman had a mother!†:49:
South2003 Posted October 17, 2007 Posted October 17, 2007 Is god going to take away the free will of those who go to heaven? If not, why is everyone going to start behaving (and stop all sinning) in heaven when everyone sins on earth? Better yet, will there be free will in Hell? or will we just be robots too. Cool! We won't know that our tails are on fire…hehehe. Oh I salivate at the thought of those fundamentalips being robots worshiping that tyrant of a god. Only every now and then when the heaven lights up they, (the fundamentalips), get a short circuit and realize that their tyrant god is using them as butt plugs.
South2003 Posted October 17, 2007 Posted October 17, 2007 QUOTE(HanSolo @ Oct 16 2007, 06:43 PM) I think the big question is: Does God regret creating Satan? Yep, nothing at all about that in the holey bib. Seems that the ssssssssssserpent was kept around to kick JOB's arse.
mwc Posted October 17, 2007 Posted October 17, 2007 If God is all-knowing (as evangelicals believe), knowing that there would be a rebellion in heaven...why create the rebellious angels in the first place? It's as I said. The "rebellion" (which never happened as has already been pointed out...but I digress) was to kick start the whole thing in the garden. Heaven had no free-will but earth did so "sin" had to originate somewhere and since he could force us to sin he forced someone else to do so and "infected" earth with the disease (Talking Snake/Satan as Typhoid Mary?). Anyhow, he knew we'd all become infected and need the "cure." All part of the plan. When I was a fundie, I asked the same questions along those lines. All I got was: “Well, the Iceman had a mother!†:49: I am so sorry your mom drank. mwc
South2003 Posted October 17, 2007 Posted October 17, 2007 Blaming the victim....Serves Adam and Eve right running around in the all-together. Course, they were fine UNTIL they realized their mistake, and tried to cover themselves...only proves God is a pervert. NO No no! you got it all wrong: Eve tasted her apple and gave some to adam. They discoverd SEX.
South2003 Posted October 17, 2007 Posted October 17, 2007 I am so sorry your mom drank. Actually, the pastor did! :wink:
Robbobrob Posted October 18, 2007 Posted October 18, 2007 Heaven had no free-will but earth did so... Which begs the question, if Heaven has no free will, how did Satan have Pride or Rebellious thoughts? It is not even robot level of being we are talking about if there is no free will, more like animatronics. Was God just playing with his angel action figures? It makes less than no sense, as much as Satan changing from God's Attorney General in the book of Job, to the great deciever and enemy of God by the book of Revelations. Even Jesus's rebuke of Satan in the Gospels makes sense if Satan was still part of God's Vice Squad. "You can't arrest me, you work for me...."
Jubilant Posted October 18, 2007 Author Posted October 18, 2007 Excellent point Robborob! Too bad we aren't having any Christians tackle this subject, I'd be interested in hearing their point of view. Well-versed they are in debating earthly issues of the Bible (even though they are wrong) but this area is something most haven't even considered, let alone discussed.
Deva Posted October 18, 2007 Posted October 18, 2007 It makes less than no sense Bingo!! Right answer. Yet all we hear from xians is "free will" "free will". It is NOT the answer to the problem of a corrupt and evil god as presented in the Bible. God invented sin in the first place, if not, how could it ever exist?? Let's have some Christian get on here and explain it.
mwc Posted October 18, 2007 Posted October 18, 2007 Which begs the question, if Heaven has no free will, how did Satan have Pride or Rebellious thoughts? It is not even robot level of being we are talking about if there is no free will, more like animatronics. Was God just playing with his angel action figures? Well that's the problem. Of course the xian "solution" to this would be that "god" didn't force Satan to do any of this but simply allowed it to happen. He just stood back and picked his nose while a rebellion rose up that would set in motion all these events. Somehow this seems to absolve their god of all responsibility. I would agree with them 100% too...if their god was a 5 year old and not the most powerful being EVER. I could understand a child not wanting to stand up to a rebellious clan of angels. Even I would not want to do that. But for this particular deity, who spoke the entirety of creation into existence, it would be a simple matter to say "The rebellion is over" and it would be over. Case closed. So he not only didn't act against the rebellion, but he didn't speak against it because HIS WORDS BECOME REALITY (especially in heaven, where again, his will is always done). This would also mean that there are places where his will isn't always done. Earth for one. So all that junk in Revelation. Maybe, just maybe, all that stuff that takes place on earth where the "bad guys" lose? Maybe that doesn't happen? Sure, it's a "prophecy" but there are places where those didn't work out before (ie. conquest of Tyre and Egypt laid waste). Jesus should have kept his mouth shut with that prayer since it gives away a lot about the way things "work." mwc
GraphicsGuy Posted October 18, 2007 Posted October 18, 2007 Let's assume for the moment that God is real and he is all-knowing: He purposely creates Lucifer knowing full well that he will rebel and become evil. Can we not then say that God himself created evil? He purposely creates a "perfect" world knowing full well it will fall into chaos. Can we not assume that everything is as he wanted it to be? If this is the case then how can there not be sin in heaven? What is to stop a HUMAN from rebelling against God after 10,000 years of eternity? What Xians call "sin" is often just the general hardship and strife of life. If you don't have hardship, if you don't have risk, if you don't have DEATH, how can you have growth of any kind? All you get from a utopian society is stagnation... However, Xians don't seem to be willing to accept this line of thinking. To them God would never create evil. To them Adam and Eve screwed up utopia for the rest of us. To them we lost our "fountain of youth" when the Tree of Life was taken to heaven. But if God is all-knowing, what other conclusions can there be?
Jubilant Posted October 18, 2007 Author Posted October 18, 2007 Why didn't he, being all-powerful and all, simply destroy Satan and the rebellious angels? Why not destroy Adam and Eve instead of letting them multiply? He could've started all over again, right? He is almighty God after all.
GraphicsGuy Posted October 18, 2007 Posted October 18, 2007 Perhaps God can't admit to making mistakes, but is also unwilling to "unmake" anything he's made. Maybe he did screw up, just said, "fuck 'em," and is off taking care of some alternate universe...
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