Deva Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 I am bringing up this topic because once again a Christian on this site has brought up this idea that salvation is somehow a "free gift". I heard this all my life growing up, and I would like to ask any and all Christians out there to explain exactly how this is a gift and how it is free in view of the fact that if this gift is not accepted, there is hell as a penalty. How do you reconcile this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 It's neither 'free' nor a 'gift'... the price of the gift is submission to a Demon God, and if you decline it then the god has you tortured 'without end'... If that's a 'free gift' then 'protection rackets' should be praised, not prosecuted under RICO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 and I reconcile this by 'cognitive dissonance' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 The term "free" rather implies that you don't have to do anything to receive it, doesn't it? God: "Here's my gift to world!" People: "Thanks!" God: "A-a-ah! Wait! You've got to earn this gift first! Repeat this prayer, read this book and do everything it says!" People: "What if we don't?" God: "Then I'm taking the gift back and you'll burn for eternity!" People: "Not much of a choice, is it?" God: "My way or the highway." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 The term "free" rather implies that you don't have to do anything to receive it, doesn't it? God: "Here's my gift to world!" People: "Thanks!" God: "A-a-ah! Wait! You've got to earn this gift first! Repeat this prayer, read this book and do everything it says!" People: "What if we don't?" God: "Then I'm taking the gift back and you'll burn for eternity!" People: "Not much of a choice, is it?" God: "My way or the highway." Kuddos VERY well put. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 I'd say, being pretty good at English, speaking almost like a native, 'Free' implies 'No Cost' and 'Gift' implies something you get you don't do anything to get. Otherwise it's a 'prize' (you got it by skill) or you've bought it, either by barter (you do this, I'll give you this) or payment (You give me one tenth of your Gross salary, and I'll give you this...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 It's a "free gift" in that it's some thing you never wanted, never asked for, can't send back or throw away. But it's "free" so take two. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 Ever seen the cartoon 'The Cat Came Back'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted October 18, 2007 Author Share Posted October 18, 2007 It occurs to me that this idea of a free gift must be fairly recent in the history of Christianity. Probably like so much of the independent Baptist doctrine I was raised with, it came from the 19th century. Any ideas on its origin? I can't imagine a Catholic saying this, but of course I may be wrong. Anyway, I just hate the expression. I also hate this tract my mother gives out called "God's Simple Plan of Salvation". Jeez. Nothing about real life is simple. In the same category with the free gift. A person must be very simple minded to believe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 Whoever said there's no such thing as a free lunch was, by and large, right... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted October 19, 2007 Author Share Posted October 19, 2007 Whoever said there's no such thing as a free lunch was, by and large, right... You got that right, Gramps, everytime we go into a restaurant, my mother has to leave one of these damn simple salvation tracts for the waiter/waitress. More trash for them to throw out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 Ever seen the cartoon 'The Cat Came Back'? Now that you mention it...I have. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 Not only that...the "free gift" salvation is no different than "free gifts" you get from those mail order scams. First everything seems simple...."enjoy your gift! Yay! You're Saved! See you in heaven!" Theeeeen little conditions start popping up...."You've sinned? You need to ask forgiveness! Don't you talk with god regularly (gotta start praying so you can now have a relationship)?" Okay....seems a minor task, but then...... "Are you sure you're saved? Better get rededicated (saved...take 2)....just in case!" Theeeeen comes the tasks...."You want all your friends and family in heaven with you...right? Better make sure they are "okay" (saved)." That increase...."Let's follow the example of Jesus and go Witness to strangers at the Bowling Alley!" Under obsevation...."I've noticed you never bring anyone to church with you. And where were you last week anyway?" Until you are so wrapped up you miss the most important part of the con where they actually take your money...."You give 10 percent to god....right? Nothing you have is worth having if you aren't tithing....and doesn't god deserve it? Surely it's the least we can do for our salvation." But wait! Salvation was a "free gift" remember?!! But by now the mark is so snokkered.....they're already pulling out the wallet to fork over hard earned money to a punk who says one 20 to 30 minute speech a week and gets free housing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 Ever seen the cartoon 'The Cat Came Back'? Now that you mention it...I have. mwc I rest my case... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arseniajoaquin Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 Salvation is free in the sense that it costs us nothing unlike the Lord Jesus who shed His blood to acquire His church. Salvation is free but it is not automatic as many people believe. An individual has to do the things required for salvation. There are 12 elements of salvation - Grace of God, Blood of Christ, Gospel, Preaching, Faith (with obedience), Change of Mind (or repentance), Confession of Jesus, Baptism into Christ, Holy Spirit, Church of Christ, Good Works, Faith, Obedience and Hope until Death. Our part are the 6 - faith, repentance, confession of Jesus, baptism into Christ, good works, and faith, obedience and hope until the end or death. These are all in the Holy Bible. Good works are enumerated. If we lack any of these elements, we would not be saved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 Who was Jesus being sacrificed to and why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemon Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 Salvation is free in the sense that it costs us nothing unlike the Lord Jesus who shed His blood to acquire His church. Salvation is free but it is not automatic as many people believe. An individual has to do the things required for salvation. There are 12 elements of salvation - Grace of God, Blood of Christ, Gospel, Preaching, Faith (with obedience), Change of Mind (or repentance), Confession of Jesus, Baptism into Christ, Holy Spirit, Church of Christ, Good Works, Faith, Obedience and Hope until Death. Our part are the 6 - faith, repentance, confession of Jesus, baptism into Christ, good works, and faith, obedience and hope until the end or death. These are all in the Holy Bible. Good works are enumerated. If we lack any of these elements, we would not be saved. Not sure if you are a real christian or another parody. But I'll go with the former. How does a God expect anyone to have faith in light of what the modrn world experiences regarding religion? We have church scandals, priest sex abuse, twisting and misusing of the bible. There are people who literally go into a panic whenever they try to enter a church. But, your God expects us to have faith? One thing my clear it up for me: What exactly does your God want us to have faith in? Is it simply believing that he exists? As for baptism, so much for those who were converted and died quickly thereafter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted October 19, 2007 Author Share Posted October 19, 2007 Salvation is free in the sense that it costs us nothing unlike the Lord Jesus who shed His blood to acquire His church. Salvation is free but it is not automatic as many people believe. An individual has to do the things required for salvation. There are 12 elements of salvation - Grace of God, Blood of Christ, Gospel, Preaching, Faith (with obedience), Change of Mind (or repentance), Confession of Jesus, Baptism into Christ, Holy Spirit, Church of Christ, Good Works, Faith, Obedience and Hope until Death. Our part are the 6 - faith, repentance, confession of Jesus, baptism into Christ, good works, and faith, obedience and hope until the end or death. These are all in the Holy Bible. Good works are enumerated. If we lack any of these elements, we would not be saved. You have just illustrated my point. If there are all these things to do, how is it free? Lets say that Jesus did something. But still then we have to do something else. So it costs us something too. Its therefore not free, is it? Or what definition of "free" do you have? It seems like a bunch of conditions and strings attached to me. Please explain this more fully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted October 19, 2007 Author Share Posted October 19, 2007 Until you are so wrapped up you miss the most important part of the con where they actually take your money...."You give 10 percent to god....right? Nothing you have is worth having if you aren't tithing....and doesn't god deserve it? Surely it's the least we can do for our salvation." But wait! Salvation was a "free gift" remember?!! But by now the mark is so snokkered.....they're already pulling out the wallet to fork over hard earned money to a punk who says one 20 to 30 minute speech a week and gets free housing. Raven, your entire post was an excellent summary of this so-called "free gift". Took me a long time to comprehend that the church wanted my money but they sure weren't going to return any of it if I were to lose my job or get sick or something like that. Hell, the most they were going to do is pray for me or possibly visit me in the hospital while I go broke and probably lose my house. I want my money back! Give me the cold hard cash! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arseniajoaquin Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 Salvation is free in the sense that it costs us nothing unlike the Lord Jesus who shed His blood to acquire His church. Salvation is free but it is not automatic as many people believe. An individual has to do the things required for salvation. There are 12 elements of salvation - Grace of God, Blood of Christ, Gospel, Preaching, Faith (with obedience), Change of Mind (or repentance), Confession of Jesus, Baptism into Christ, Holy Spirit, Church of Christ, Good Works, Faith, Obedience and Hope until Death. Our part are the 6 - faith, repentance, confession of Jesus, baptism into Christ, good works, and faith, obedience and hope until the end or death. These are all in the Holy Bible. Good works are enumerated. If we lack any of these elements, we would not be saved. Not sure if you are a real christian or another parody. But I'll go with the former. How does a God expect anyone to have faith in light of what the modrn world experiences regarding religion? We have church scandals, priest sex abuse, twisting and misusing of the bible. There are people who literally go into a panic whenever they try to enter a church. But, your God expects us to have faith? One thing my clear it up for me: What exactly does your God want us to have faith in? Is it simply believing that he exists? As for baptism, so much for those who were converted and died quickly thereafter. If we have faith like a grain of mustard, we would not be troubled with what we experience and see regarding other people or religion. We have to stick with the Holy Bible. God resurrected His Son and God wants us to believe that there will be resurrection in the last day and all will be resurrected to face judgment - either to go to heaven to live with God forever or to be thrown into hell with Satan to suffer everlasting punishment for disobedience to God during their lifetime here on earth. We should study the Holy Bible very well. Answers are all there. We should not rely on what other people say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted October 19, 2007 Author Share Posted October 19, 2007 We should not rely on what other people say. Actually the first sensible thing I have seen you write this morning. As for the rest of it, I am so glad it is complete nonsense. I cannot comprehend how you can somehow live with a god that throws most of humanity into hell for what they do or don't do in their short span of life on earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShackledNoMore Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 Take a look at the obligations you laid out as our part of the deal to receive our free gift: faith, repentance, confession of Jesus, baptism into Christ, good works, and faith, obedience and hope until the end or death. Even from your list, and I hasten to add that this list WILL vary depending on which xian you ask, there are concrete actions required that have major ramifications. While good works is a good thing whether you are a xian believer or not, if you're doing it ONLY to try to please some god you believe requires it, then you are spending time, effort, and possibly money as payment for your salvation, not because it's an admirable thing to do. Faith and repentance. The cost here is philosophical, isn't it? Faith requires you to just not question certain things. You do get easy answers and a superficial assurance (I know that you would not say that the promise of an eternity in heaven is superficial, but you can't question whether it's reasonable to believe in heaven because of that pesky matter of faith). Repentance means you have to adopt a philosophy that we are all vile and evil. Not a healthy thing, especially since empirically, xians who have repented do not behave better than non-believers. Then there is obedience. This may leave you susceptible to hoaxters: "The bible says to tithe, and god wants you to give your money to my church." It may require you to take up a gun, join up with your country's military, start killing people, and maybe be killed yourself, if you happen to believe that this is what god is telling you to do. The idea of a "free gift" is quite a lure, and it is commonly used by both secular scammers and religions (particularly, I think, many sects of xianity), but xianity is anything but a "free gift." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1_individual Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 It's only "free" if you place no value on your life. -Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 Salvation is free in the sense that it costs us nothing unlike the Lord Jesus who shed His blood to acquire His church. You say it costs nothing, however this is a lie. It's not free, at least be honest. Hell is quite the gun to the head. Hell forces people under duress and fear. It is coercion in the highest form. It costs you everything including, but not limited to ones sanity. If someone broke into your house, and put a gun to your head and said... Your money or your life, would you be giving that money of 'free will'? Your god is an abuser with a gun to the head of love me or suffer. Adore me or burn. Christianity is a dogma that detests people and always has the sliding scale as to who the real Christians are such as the rest of your post. Everyone of you cultist creates hoops to jump thru. It is lawyer speak and so twisted and convoluted that no thinking person can follow it. It goes against all logic, reason and sanity. Salvation is free but it is not automatic as many people believe. An individual has to do the things required for salvation. There are 12 elements of salvation - In other words the read the fine print to your not so free gift... . God is not responsible for fulfillment of the offers. ... Other restrictions apply. Read the Terms and Conditions for the offer. ... Void where prohibited, going outside said conditions and/or terms is subject to eternity to burning with out end for the rest of time, for being the lowly worthless piece of shit I always knew you were. You Christians are a hoot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemon Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 Salvation is free in the sense that it costs us nothing unlike the Lord Jesus who shed His blood to acquire His church. Salvation is free but it is not automatic as many people believe. An individual has to do the things required for salvation. There are 12 elements of salvation - Grace of God, Blood of Christ, Gospel, Preaching, Faith (with obedience), Change of Mind (or repentance), Confession of Jesus, Baptism into Christ, Holy Spirit, Church of Christ, Good Works, Faith, Obedience and Hope until Death. Our part are the 6 - faith, repentance, confession of Jesus, baptism into Christ, good works, and faith, obedience and hope until the end or death. These are all in the Holy Bible. Good works are enumerated. If we lack any of these elements, we would not be saved. Not sure if you are a real christian or another parody. But I'll go with the former. How does a God expect anyone to have faith in light of what the modrn world experiences regarding religion? We have church scandals, priest sex abuse, twisting and misusing of the bible. There are people who literally go into a panic whenever they try to enter a church. But, your God expects us to have faith? One thing my clear it up for me: What exactly does your God want us to have faith in? Is it simply believing that he exists? As for baptism, so much for those who were converted and died quickly thereafter. If we have faith like a grain of mustard, we would not be troubled with what we experience and see regarding other people or religion. We have to stick with the Holy Bible. God resurrected His Son and God wants us to believe that there will be resurrection in the last day and all will be resurrected to face judgment - either to go to heaven to live with God forever or to be thrown into hell with Satan to suffer everlasting punishment for disobedience to God during their lifetime here on earth. We should study the Holy Bible very well. Answers are all there. We should not rely on what other people say. Faith like a grain of mustard sead? Those seeds are quite small which means anyone could have that kind of faith. So if anyone has that type of faith, it stands to reason that people not being troubled by the actions of others or their experiences simply could not be true. Are saying that your God doesn't expect people to be troubled by bad experiences? Something tells me that you didn't quite mean what you said or at least not the way you "worded" it. I'll give you time to clarify before I go any further on that point. You also mention that we must study the Holy Bible well. I have and plan to do so again. Believe it or not, I spent a lot of time debating atheists and others. Of course that is not what led to me trying to purge xtianity from my life but oh well...It was studying the bible that led me to question. With that said, could you please tell me how old Ahaziah was when he began to reign? I ask since you appear to have "studied the holy bible very well". I also have tons of other questions if you'd like to go through them with me (perhaps in another thread or feel free to visit my myspace thread). 2 Kings 8:24-26 (King James Version) 24And Joram slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David: and Ahaziah his son reigned in his stead. 25In the twelfth year of Joram the son of Ahab king of Israel did Ahaziah the son of Jehoram king of Judah begin to reign. 26Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel 2 Chronicles 22 1And the inhabitants of Jerusalem made Ahaziah his youngest son king in his stead: for the band of men that came with the Arabians to the camp had slain all the eldest. So Ahaziah the son of Jehoram king of Judah reigned. 2Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Athaliah the daughter of Omri. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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