Guest end3 Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 Hans, Sorry, same redneck from West Texas. There are parts of the Bible in which I am am not versed. To the best of my understanding, the people kept choosing other than what God had suggested. If they had done what He had said, I think we would be walking with Him under that covenant. Satan's fault. I would say the new covenant is less burdensome. I don't thing the first convenant was a mistake by Him. We all hold a part, not the whole, so that would offer many aspects to one truth. Why do I pick up my children when they can't reach the water fountain? Why the two stage plan? I don't know. DL, My grammar is lacking, I am sure. What I meant is the "saved" person, as a testament to their faith, would help you. Testament and payment and condition are not the same I think. The def. that I was using was: testament - something that serves as tangible evidence or proof. Like the leaves moving is tangible evidence that the wind is there. The way I think it should be is: "saved" people, as a testament to their faith, will want to serve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 Maybe therein lies the answer. Only room enough for a handful. "In my mansion are many rooms!"... "about a whole 3 of them." "It's tight I know, but we can squeeze a couple in each..." Maybe Jesus wasn't that good carpenter? Or ... No! I know why!!! They have no wood in Heaven! They used it all up for the arc! No more gopher wood, only goofy wood left. And you can't build any good mansions with goofy wood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted October 20, 2007 Author Share Posted October 20, 2007 DL, My grammar is lacking, I am sure. What I meant is the "saved" person, as a testament to their faith, would help you. Testament and payment and condition are not the same I think. The def. that I was using was: testament - something that serves as tangible evidence or proof. Like the leaves moving is tangible evidence that the wind is there. The way I think it should be is: "saved" people, as a testament to their faith, will want to serve. This probably is true in a tight knit church community where they all believe the same things. I think they do help each other out. But this holds true for any close group of believers-- Muslims, Hindus, Amish, etc. They do take care of their own, I grant you that. But it is not proof of the truth of their belief. The price is also very high - it is not free. They must support their community and are not allowed to dissent from their beliefs or they are shunned or thrown out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 "GH, Don't you think the return of Chirst was proof that the things He said were true? If you choose this (to believe, have faith in that direction, and sacrifice the same), that this (new body) will be the result? Seems as though this conversation will lead to "show me a Heaven". Maybe the only way that can be accomplished is in brief glimpses, (in part), of what Heaven is like, and that would be the works from the heart, like tears in a rainstorm GH, the ones with salt in them." 1) Are you a Trinitarian? 2) I don't think that Josh got better after being dead... if he ever existed at all, then after the singularly wussy 4 hours on the cross, I think he got buried, and unless he wasn't dead in the first place, there he stayed, and he ended up in some ossuary box when his flesh had rotted. 3) the Message of the Gospels largely contains stuff that isn't possible to communicate in Aramaic (the language Josh would have spoken, not Greek) if you can't say it in Aramaic, then Josh didn't say it... bit of a killer that one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 Hans,Sorry, same redneck from West Texas. There are parts of the Bible in which I am am not versed. To the best of my understanding, the people kept choosing other than what God had suggested. If they had done what He had said, I think we would be walking with Him under that covenant. Satan's fault. I would say the new covenant is less burdensome. I don't thing the first covenant was a mistake by Him. We all hold a part, not the whole, so that would offer many aspects to one truth. Why do I pick up my children when they can't reach the water fountain, or get a stool. Why the two stage plan? I don't know. So, since only a handful can be considered true christians, then this "new" covenant is not working out so well, wouldn't you agree? How is it "less burdensome"? If you don't believe and do everything correctly, then you go to hell. No, that's not burdensome at all is it? There is no "plan" at all, can you not see this? The bible was put together long after the original authors died, and they were translated and edited by the early roman catholic church, the "plan" was to rule the world through religion, it was never a plan or blueprint from going to heaven. The only reason you believe this is because someone taught you to be christian. You would not have chose it on your own accord. Why? Because it is full of contradictions and false science. If you were raised in the middle east, you would likely be muslim, you do realize this don't you? DL,My grammar is lacking, I am sure. What I meant is the "saved" person, as a testament to their faith, would help you. Testament and payment and condition are not the same I think. The def. that I was using was: testament - something that serves as tangible evidence or proof. Like the leaves moving is tangible evidence that the wind is there. The way I think it should be is: "saved" people, as a testament to their faith, will want to serve. Payment and condition negates "free" in the "free" gift. You used a reference to supporting this web site in one of your posts. Lets look at that a second. You do realize that there are a lot of members here that are not donating right? Well, they still get to post don't they? Now, look at the "free" gift of salvation. If it were truly "free" then ALL people would go to heaven. The one's that believe and have faith, and pray, would get the same spot in heaven as all the people in this web site would. It is not rocket science. No matter how you juggle words, there is nothing "free" about the gift at all. And besides, if you are right and christianity is for real, then the BLAME for us not believing rests squarely on the shoulders of the original bible writers, and the editors/translators that followed. The BLAME also rests on all the false preachers that steal and lie, or screw kids. You cannot blame a cross section of people for not believing when the data they are given is corrupted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jubilant Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 Jews and Messianic Christians do not interrupt it as a New Covenant but a REnewed Covenant. Besides, how can the Christians say that the "New" Covenant is in effect when the people God made the deal with haven't accepted yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 Complete side bar... End3 is a speaker of American English as a first language? Ye gods and little fishes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 I see God as a blob I cannot describe. I see Yeshua as a man. I see the Holy Spirit as a Presence with us now, but different than Jesus. God the Father with the people before, Jesus with the people for a time, and the HS with us now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 Free gift my rear end... When it's given to you only if you give something in return, and when it's taken away from you because you stop giving something in return, it's most definitely something you're having to pay for... It's not free, it's not a gift and it's insane the way people keep claiming it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 Jub, I feel if we could understand all the reasons for the "rules" of the old covenant, we would understand they are the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 Michael, I don't know if I will get to the understanding ya'll share. I think regardless of the works, if you believe, you "get to post". It is not an "and" statement, because if it were, no, not one, would make it. CT, So in practice, we are human. Sure we only give to who we want.....what's the revelation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 So it's heretic cum making it up as you go along... pretty much par for the course... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 GH, Please put it out there in some simple language. What is the problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 Michael,I don't know if I will get to the understanding ya'll share. Sure you will. If you start thinking for yourself, instead of letting a flawed man-made book guide you. I think regardless of the works, if you believe, you "get to post". It is not an "and" statement, because if it were, no, not one, would make it. Now you see the big problem with christianity. *If* you adhere to the bible, you will see there are *many* requirements for getting into heaven, so many in fact that NO NOT ONE can make it. That's what makes christianity so hopeless, it makes it impossible to get to heaven. IF you think you have salvation as a free gift, then you aren't really a christian, you have *invented* your own sect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 CT,So in practice, we are human. Sure we only give to who we want.....what's the revelation? You don't seem to understand... it's GOD who's only giving to who he wants. Are you saying that God's only Human? Or is it more a case of God throwing a hissy fit and trying to guilt you into being his friend? It's very obvious, once you think about it, that Salvation is not free, it's not a gift, and is in fact nothing more than a rationalization used by people who just don't want to admit that the god they worship is simply a tantruming bully... and one that has no way of backing up his threats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted October 20, 2007 Author Share Posted October 20, 2007 I see God as a blob I cannot describe. I see Yeshua as a man. I see the Holy Spirit as a Presence with us now, but different than Jesus. God the Father with the people before, Jesus with the people for a time, and the HS with us now. end3- You realize the above statement is heretical, don't you? You are not describing the trinity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 So someone educate me, what is the difference in what I described as to my belief, as opposed to the Trinity...that's how it has developed in my brain and heart. CT, I was being saracastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 Deva says it pretty well... I'll let her explain your religion to you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 Maybe it's my grammar again, one God, three forms, one father I cannot describe. one son, who is the father, in the form of a man, and one spirit, who is the father, in "wind" or "water" form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 So someone educate me, what is the difference in what I described as to my belief, as opposed to the Trinity...that's how it has developed in my brain and heart. CT, I was being saracastic. I did a little data-mining for you, here is what I found: The word "Trinity" comes from the Latin noun "trinitas" meaning "three are one." "Trinity" expresses the belief that God is one Being made up of three distinct Persons who exist in co-equal, co-eternal communion as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. End3, the above is what differs from what you wrote, its the co-equal part, you show differences. The doctrine or concept of the Trinity is central to most Christian denominations and faith groups, although not all. Among churches that reject the doctrine of the Trinity are The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, Christian Unitarians, the Unification Church, the Christadelphians, and Oneness Pentecostals, as well as others. Although the term "Trinity" is not found in the Bible, most Bible scholars agree that its meaning is clearly expressed. Here is the link where that data came from. http://christianity.about.com/od/glossary/...itydoctrine.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted October 20, 2007 Author Share Posted October 20, 2007 So someone educate me, what is the difference in what I described as to my belief, as opposed to the Trinity...that's how it has developed in my brain and heart. I don't have a lot of time to present this so please do some reading. You are describing separate gods, existing at different times. Also, you say the Holy Spirit is different than Jesus. The doctrine of the Trinity - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity The Nicene Creed - I believe in one God the Father Almighty, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 End3 is a Tarsean Christian... three gods... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted October 20, 2007 Author Share Posted October 20, 2007 Maybe it's my grammar again, one God, three forms, one father I cannot describe. one son, who is the father, in the form of a man, and one spirit, who is the father, in "wind" or "water" form. It's not the grammer. There is a very plain difference in your two statements. Your first statement was: "I see Yeshua as a man. I see the Holy Spirit as a Presence with us now, but different than Jesus. God the Father with the people before, Jesus with the people for a time, and the HS with us now." Now, in the statement quoted at the top of the page (posted later), you are saying something different. Sure you are only one person, end3? You still have a problem with heresy saying the father is in the "form of a man." Unfortunately, if we get off into a discussion of the nature of the Trinity, we have derailed this thread. I still want to hear an explanation of how salvation is a gift and how it is free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 CT,I was being saracastic. Sarcasm does not convey well in written form... hence the rather wide use of smilies and such things as </sarcasm> Of course, the sarcasm would only have worked had you said "So in practice, God is human. Sure he only gives to who he wants.....what's the revelation?" but even then, my point still stands. God is a tantruming bully trying to scare people into being his friend... kinda sad really. Salvation is like Hanks $1m... which you only get by Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 Maybe it's my grammar again, one God, three forms, one father I cannot describe. one son, who is the father, in the form of a man, and one spirit, who is the father, in "wind" or "water" form. OK then who was God (Josh) killed to appease... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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