The Doctrine Of Hell

[Evolution_beyond]

Hi EB

But was this pressure put on you by God or was it put on you by denomination you belong to? By the preachers that told you, you must do this or that in order to get to heaven because if you don’t do this or that you will spend an eternity of torment in hell?

 

This pressure was still there - a long time after I'd stopped believing in Hell. The pressure was simply a result of feeling that I had to measure up to something, had to try and perfect myself, be all 'spiritual' or whatever. Even though I believed in a God who didn't even see mistakes as sins, but simply as mistakes and loved everyone unconditionally, welcoming us all home when we die. Even though I had rejected the idea of hell and come to believe in a far greater and more loving deity, I still saw my imperfections next to that perfect being - and so put a lot of pressure on myself to aim for more than is humanly possible perhaps. Perfectionism like that can have the reverse effect and make you a worse person.

 

I don't know who to blame for it actually. Maybe it is a result of leftover guilt from my childhood faith, which did teach about hell - plus my parents were very repressive about certain things (eg. sex). But even if you can blame the denomination I was raised in or the parents I was raised by - it still shows that for people raised like that the best thing for them is to give up God altogether because, as my case shows, even a more positive and 'groovy' faith can be twisted by residual pressures into something unhealthy.

 

On the other hand though - emotional, psychological or ethical reasons are not the main reasons for my becoming atheist anyway. After a while I realised that I was being overly sentimental about clinging onto supernatural beliefs and not being quite as rigorously rational as I liked to believe. The rational point still stands - there is no evidence for a God, or even a conscious Universe. So why believe in such things? If I had documented evidence of unicorns then I would believe in those beasts but until then I tend to default to the position that things for which I have no evidence are likely to be fictions and not real. Why is God any different?

 

Also I find it slightly uncouth to dress the Universe up in human clothes. Why not suppose that the Universe simply is - and that things really are nothing more than they appear to be?

[pneuma]

*sigh*

 

Please explain the C-vitamin gene deficiency that humans have, and that we share with some of the monkeys. It's a hereditary genetic defect that was caused by a retrovirus long time ago, and the only way we can share it with these apes is because of hereditary reasons. And if I recall correctly we share about 20 such endogenous retrovirus changes to our DNA. It's not probably at all that the same genetic defects affected us and the apes exactly the same way. How do you explain those genetic defects through creationism?

 

Listen, evolution is the best model to explain a truckload of observed phenomenon in the world. Creationism does not.

 

Just take this little thought experiment:

 

There are in round numbers a million different species in the world. Now, Noah could not have fitted a pair of each species in the Ark, so the explanation is usually that he only too pairs of "one kind", and lets use dogs as an example. There's hundreds of sub-species of dog, like dalmatians, poodles etc. They all have different genetic encoding to give them their unique look and behavior.

 

This genetic difference is not something human could accomplish. It can only be happening through mutations, and non-destructive mutation to be more precise.

 

So now, let me hear your explanation how Noah could not bring all different kinds of dogs on the Ark, and yet they exist today. Did God have a second or third time creation? If so, why doesn't the Bible even hint that this happened? The only rational explanation is mutation.

 

Second thing you should know, they have tested mutations in laboratories. They usually use fruit flies. They've seen (by testing the DNA) that the offspring over time changes DNA encoding. Now isn't that a PROOF that mutations, non-destructive kind, that changes the species does happens? What else do you need?

 

And next thing, can you explain Ring Species through creationism? Seriously. Look it up, and try to understand what it means, and how it can be explained with a flood and Noah and Creationism.

 

Your "theory" is obsolete and doesn't fit observed facts and phenomenon, and it's very sad that a few uneducated and radical religionists managed to spread this idea-virus. One of them Ken Hovind is in prison now for LYING to IRS! Think about it. When the front figures of a movement are lying to office of the government, do you really think they will bother to tell you the truth? Granted that if they lied once it doesn't mean they lie all the time... oh, wait, not that's exactly what Way of the Master wants you to think. If Ken Hovind lied once to someone, then he lies all the time, and he's your head figure together with Ken Ham (who is in trouble because his home church accuse him of fraud). So, yes, your theory is solid, like liquefied toxic mud.

 

Hi Hans this is the discussion I am having with an atheist on another board.

Here is the link if your interested.

 

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=96.0

 

Also you’ll note if you read the link is that I believe in a type of evolution.

Man was created an animal, probably a type of ape, which would explain the closeness of our dna to that of monkeys. And we are to be changed from that old creature into a new creature in Christ Jesus.

 

 

 

Eh, no, it doesn't fit the definition of the word "parable". A parable is a story. What he did was using colorful language to give a distinct idea intense focus, and sure, we can interpret it as "love less", but unfortunately there are cults that use this verse to force their followers to cut of any kind of communication with their loves ones and family. This verse has been misused, and I do wonder why God couldn't foresee this specific problem?

 

Yes a parable can be a story but is also dark saying hard to be understood.

Also the scriptures tell us that He/Jesus opened not His mouth except in parables.

And this is one of the areas I have had trouble explaining to the traditional Christians as they to want to take what is a parable and make it literal, because if it is a parable it does away with their belief in an eternally tormenting God, thus they argue for a literal translation of the scriptures.

[pneuma]

Well, in this day and age, with the varying definitions of what it means to follow Christ (which you yourself pointed out) it is NOT self explanatory to me. So what is your authority? It sure isn't the Bible.

 

As to the scholars mentioned, please crack some books, educate yourself and do some research. What I have said is nothing new. To start with you might look at the works of all the scholars listed at the bottom of the page here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar

 

You still haven't answered my original questions to you, which were - How do you square intellectual honesty with your calling yourself a "Christian," since throughout history that word has meant something other than your definition?

 

Why not admit honestly that you are just making stuff up and using the stuff that you find attractive, and calling it Christian?

 

Hi Deva

I have answered your question Deva, but will try again.

Taking with a couple of Jehovah witnesses, they were telling me that they are the only witnesses of Jehovah and I laughed and said I to was a Jehovah witness because I also witness for Jehovah, they got all bent out of shape because I don’t belong to their church so they said I cannot be a Jehovah witness and left.

The point is Deva if I must belong to a certain church to be called a Christian then I am not a Christian because I then would not be following Christ but of a churches teachings.

Christian means follower of Christ not follower of some man made church doctrine.

And I don’t follow any church doctrine. So who is a Christian Deva? One who follows Christ or one who follows the doctrines of some particular church?

 

You deem me not to be a Christian because……?

[pneuma]

This pressure was still there - a long time after I'd stopped believing in Hell. The pressure was simply a result of feeling that I had to measure up to something, had to try and perfect myself, be all 'spiritual' or whatever. Even though I believed in a God who didn't even see mistakes as sins, but simply as mistakes and loved everyone unconditionally, welcoming us all home when we die. Even though I had rejected the idea of hell and come to believe in a far greater and more loving deity, I still saw my imperfections next to that perfect being - and so put a lot of pressure on myself to aim for more than is humanly possible perhaps. Perfectionism like that can have the reverse effect and make you a worse person.

 

I don't know who to blame for it actually. Maybe it is a result of leftover guilt from my childhood faith, which did teach about hell - plus my parents were very repressive about certain things (eg. sex). But even if you can blame the denomination I was raised in or the parents I was raised by - it still shows that for people raised like that the best thing for them is to give up God altogether because, as my case shows, even a more positive and 'groovy' faith can be twisted by residual pressures into something unhealthy.

 

Hi EB I understand this all to well, as I to have been there and still am to some degree.

We can never be perfect in and of ourselves, so to try to be perfect is coming to the Father by works of the law, which according to scripture makes no one perfect.

The only way to be perfect is for Christ to take the reigns and become the head of our body, He is the one who makes us perfect and not of ourselves.

John the Baptist said I must decrease that He/Christ might increase and then John was beheaded. The spiritual implication here is if we keep our own head we will never decrease that He/Christ might increase.

The whole of scripture is about Christ in us our hope, not about hope in ourselves. Try as we might by our own strength and we will always fail EB.

 

 

On the other hand though - emotional, psychological or ethical reasons are not the main reasons for my becoming atheist anyway. After a while I realised that I was being overly sentimental about clinging onto supernatural beliefs and not being quite as rigorously rational as I liked to believe. The rational point still stands - there is no evidence for a God, or even a conscious Universe. So why believe in such things? If I had documented evidence of unicorns then I would believe in those beasts but until then I tend to default to the position that things for which I have no evidence are likely to be fictions and not real. Why is God any different?

 

Also I find it slightly uncouth to dress the Universe up in human clothes. Why not suppose that the Universe simply is - and that things really are nothing more than they appear to be?

 

Well for myself I see God in creation, but I know many who don’t and just like Thomas who refused to believe until he saw the nail scared hands did not believe God will show all men the same, and then their unbelief will be turned in belief.

 

 

 

To all, I just wanted to say I won’t be posting much anymore here (may stop in from time to time) as I don’t want to be a bug or add anymore hurt to you guys then what you have already experienced.

 

It was nice meeting you all, even my grumpy friend Grandpa, I know saying God bless will mean nothing to you guys but it means something to me so

 

God bless

[Grandpa Harley]

So, having been handed his ass he fucks off...

 

Good riddance to extremely bad rubbish... If he breeds then it's proof there is no god....

 

He doesn't actually get how dumb

 

Man was created an animal, probably a type of ape, which would explain the closeness of our dna to that of monkeys. And we are to be changed from that old creature into a new creature in Christ Jesus.

 

Which means that his precious OT text were written by great apes, not humans...

 

Nutcase...

[Grandpa Harley]

and as to 'God bless'... I hope you die.

[Evolution_beyond]

Hi EB I understand this all to well, as I to have been there and still am to some degree.

We can never be perfect in and of ourselves, so to try to be perfect is coming to the Father by works of the law, which according to scripture makes no one perfect.

The only way to be perfect is for Christ to take the reigns and become the head of our body, He is the one who makes us perfect and not of ourselves.

 

Sorry but this just seems like crazy talk to me. How does one let Christ 'take the reigns'? By becoming a christian? How come I don't see any evidence of christianity making people into better people - but quite the contrary? What does 'Christ taking the reigns' mean anyway? Do I have to sacrifice my own reasoning, my own free will, my own feelings and become a kind of robot controlled by Christ? That sounds like the worst thing that anyone could do and would more likely result in someone being a robot slave to the church. I find the morals of christianity to be highly suspect and so I don't see christianity as a path to becoming a better person.

 

Well for myself I see God in creation, but I know many who don’t and just like Thomas who refused to believe until he saw the nail scared hands did not believe God will show all men the same, and then their unbelief will be turned in belief.

 

So we should just believe things on faith, without any demand for evidence, or at the very least rationality? So what's to stop me becoming a Jehovah's witness, a mormon, a moslem, a devil worshipper, an african witch-doctor, an aztec or whatever? There must be some kind of rational means to decide between different faiths - if it's faith without questioning then all religions become equally valid. But if you need rationality to decide between faiths then why stop there? Why not pick apart all faiths to see if they stand up to reason. Well, that's what I've already done, which is why I'm an atheist now.

 

But if I should follow my heart rather than my brain - then I'll go right ahead and worship Shiva, the hindu god who is far, far better than the christian god imho.

 

To all, I just wanted to say I won’t be posting much anymore here (may stop in from time to time) as I don’t want to be a bug or add anymore hurt to you guys then what you have already experienced.

 

It was nice meeting you all, even my grumpy friend Grandpa, I know saying God bless will mean nothing to you guys but it means something to me so

 

God bless

 

Oh well, I guess you won't be answering any of my new questions then. That's a shame because the conversation was just getting interesting. And by the way, you've not yet caused me to get upset or annoyed - so why are you leaving?

[Deva]

Hi Deva

I have answered your question Deva, but will try again.

Taking with a couple of Jehovah witnesses, they were telling me that they are the only witnesses of Jehovah and I laughed and said I to was a Jehovah witness because I also witness for Jehovah, they got all bent out of shape because I don’t belong to their church so they said I cannot be a Jehovah witness and left.

The point is Deva if I must belong to a certain church to be called a Christian then I am not a Christian because I then would not be following Christ but of a churches teachings.

Christian means follower of Christ not follower of some man made church doctrine.

And I don’t follow any church doctrine. So who is a Christian Deva? One who follows Christ or one who follows the doctrines of some particular church?

 

You deem me not to be a Christian because……?

You have not answered my question. It was: What makes you a follower of Christ?

 

I can understand the JW's anger. It is the height of dishonesty to claim you are a JW when you do not subscribe to their beliefs.

 

I never specified belonging or not belonging to a church. I only asked why you call yourself a follower of Christ. We don't seem to be able to communicate.

 

It doesn't matter much to me whether you consider yourself a Christian or not, but in my opinion it is dishonest to describe yourself as such when you do not believe in the Nicene creed or subscribe to any of the beliefs about Christ which historically would be called "Christian."

 

Don't hurry back, we won't miss you.

[Japedo]

Yes He uses the word hate in a PARABLE which is a dark saying hard to be understood, so therefore to take it literally as to hate our parents is obviously an error in understanding of the parable.

 

I'm sorry. You failed the quiz.

 

 

 

Luke 14

 

 

23And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

 

24For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

 

25And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,

 

26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

 

27And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

 

28For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?

 

29Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,

 

30Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.

 

31Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?

 

32Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.

 

33So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

 

34Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?

 

35It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 

Oh I get it, He's not really saying to hate yourself or others?

 

 

Isn't the story saying you actually can love no one other then him? Sorta like the abusive husband does. One can not be his follower unless they meet his requirements, which is to hate your family, yourself, to bear a cross like he did and to forsake all you have.

 

How is this suppose to be interpreted any other way then how it sounds?

[Ouroboros]

Hi Hans this is the discussion I am having with an atheist on another board.

Here is the link if your interested.

 

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=96.0

 

Also you’ll note if you read the link is that I believe in a type of evolution.

Man was created an animal, probably a type of ape, which would explain the closeness of our dna to that of monkeys. And we are to be changed from that old creature into a new creature in Christ Jesus.

Ah, okay. I will read that thread later, but your admission here that you believe in (somewhat) evolution calms me down a bit. Now I won't chew you out as much.

 

You have a very odd version of view off it though, but I will let it pass.

 

Here's something that's also interesting, the DNA sequence is very similar to the one of the mouse (not exact same DNA, but the the loci is to large parts the same for the genes), so genetically and in mathematical probability we are also related to mice. That's why they use mice to test chemicals, drugs etc, because mice are easy to breed and you get an 70-80% accuracy of the test, but of course the DNA isn't an exact match so it won't prove the drugs efficiency unless a real test is done. But again, we are related to the mice too.

 

 

Yes a parable can be a story but is also dark saying hard to be understood.

Also the scriptures tell us that He/Jesus opened not His mouth except in parables.

And this is one of the areas I have had trouble explaining to the traditional Christians as they to want to take what is a parable and make it literal, because if it is a parable it does away with their belief in an eternally tormenting God, thus they argue for a literal translation of the scriptures.

I never heard that parable would be defined that way, but I will let that pass too. I guess I'm in a good mood today.

 

In your debate with fundies, tell them: "Literalism kills the spirit of the Word".

 

My point though is usually that sure, literal interpretation is bad, but the problem I have is that how can you be sure that your personal interpretation of the Bible is more correct than someone else's?

[pneuma]

Sorry but this just seems like crazy talk to me. How does one let Christ 'take the reigns'?

 

Hi EB

He will draw you to the Father, this is not something that you do, it is something He will do.

 

By becoming a christian?

 

In short yes, but a Christian is not one who follows any churches doctrine, a Christian is one who follows Christ period.

 

 

 

How come I don't see any evidence of christianity making people into better people - but quite the contrary?

 

Because they are not following Christ, but mans doctrine of what they believe is Christ.

If one views God as a malicious evil tormenting God they become what they deem Him to be. History is replete with people who view God in this way, they killed thinking to do God a service. Just look at the Catholic Church and all the atrocities they committed in the name of God. Why? Because they view God as an evil tormenting God who will eternally torment His own creation.

 

 

 

 

What does 'Christ taking the reigns' mean anyway? Do I have to sacrifice my own reasoning, my own free will, my own feelings and become a kind of robot controlled by Christ? That sounds like the worst thing that anyone could do and would more likely result in someone being a robot slave to the church. I find the morals of christianity to be highly suspect and so I don't see christianity as a path to becoming a better person.

 

No you don’t have to sacrifice your own reasoning or feeling EB, the scriptures tell us God will reason with us, this tells me that He will use reason in order to make us see.

 

 

So we should just believe things on faith, without any demand for evidence, or at the very least rationality?

 

NO, that not what faith is, although that is what the churches tell us faith is.

Scripture defines faith this way “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE/PROOF of things not seenâ€

God will give us the PROOF of things we cannot see or understand.

 

 

 

Oh well, I guess you won't be answering any of my new questions then. That's a shame because the conversation was just getting interesting. And by the way, you've not yet caused me to get upset or annoyed - so why are you leaving?

 

Well I came back to answer yours and Hans questions EB, and I am glad I have not annoyed you or cause you any unrest, but from some of the responses I get I know that I am bugging others here and that was not my intent when I came here. (fuck off and leave) is pretty clear to me some do not want me here.

So if you are really interested in the way I see things we can speak through pms or you can stop by tentmaker as I post there also. Either way take care EB.

[pneuma]

Ah, okay. I will read that thread later, but your admission here that you believe in (somewhat) evolution calms me down a bit. (IMG:http://www.ex-christian.net/style_emoticons/default/FrogsToadBigGrin.gif) Now I won't chew you out as much.

 

You have a very odd version of view off it though, but I will let it pass.

 

I know and not many agree with me on it, especially the orthodox christian, I have been taken to tasks many time by Christians because of my views on it.

 

Here's something that's also interesting, the DNA sequence is very similar to the one of the mouse (not exact same DNA, but the the loci is to large parts the same for the genes), so genetically and in mathematical probability we are also related to mice. That's why they use mice to test chemicals, drugs etc, because mice are easy to breed and you get an 70-80% accuracy of the test, but of course the DNA isn't an exact match so it won't prove the drugs efficiency unless a real test is done. But again, we are related to the mice too.

 

Well I would think because man is an animal also that our dna would be closely linked to other animal also.

 

 

I never heard that parable would be defined that way, but I will let that pass too. I guess I'm in a good mood today. (IMG:http://www.ex-christian.net/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

 

In your debate with fundies, tell them: "Literalism kills the spirit of the Word".

 

My point though is usually that sure, literal interpretation is bad, but the problem I have is that how can you be sure that your personal interpretation of the Bible is more correct than someone else's?

 

Well you’ll either hate this answer or laugh at it Hans but its because what I see is based on reason. If there is a God who created all of creation it is unreasonable to say He will eternally torment 99% of it.

[Ouroboros]

Well you’ll either hate this answer or laugh at it Hans but its because what I see is based on reason. If there is a God who created all of creation it is unreasonable to say He will eternally torment 99% of it.

No, neither laughing or hating it, I agree. If there is a God (notice the "if") Hell can't exist, at least not in this kind of world. If it was setup in a different way, they might have existed some Hell, but there's too many inconcistencies and contradictions to allow it.

 

I used to like to build things with Lego when I was a kid. It would be unreasonable if I built two different version of the same thing, and one of them were faulty and I would take that one and put it in the oven to melt it, and when it was melted I would build a new one, just as faulty and put it in the oven to melt it again, and keep on doing this for the rest of my life. The answer is to that stupid "lego builder"... stop making that faulty design and get on fixiing it and make a good design and just forget the bad ones. Learn from the mistakes, don't dwell in them and torture your own creation. The idea of the "Vindictive God" is a very stupid God image and very destructive to our planet.

[Deva]

Well I came back to answer yours and Hans questions EB, and I am glad I have not annoyed you or cause you any unrest, but from some of the responses I get I know that I am bugging others here and that was not my intent when I came here.

 

Don't flatter yourself. Someone like myself that has worked their way out of a fire and brimstone religion is not easily angered or annoyed. However, I must say your refusal to answer a straight question is a bit frustrating.

[SWIM]

I used to like to build things with Lego when I was a kid.

 

Ever notice how close LEGO is to the word LOGO? Be carefull not to spell out words with the lego blocks, it will end up being scripture, then you will have to battle the church to get it included in the bible... More trouble then it's worth, just leave the legos alone...

 

hehe

[Ouroboros]

I used to like to build things with Lego when I was a kid.

 

Ever notice how close LEGO is to the word LOGO? Be carefull not to spell out words with the lego blocks, it will end up being scripture, then you will have to battle the church to get it included in the bible... More trouble then it's worth, just leave the legos alone...

 

hehe

If I get one of those gray plates you can build upon, I can call myself a Lego Fundamentalist.

 

I just got the Star Wars Lego game for the Wii. It's SOOO MUCH FUN. No brain needed, just run around and swing your light saber.

[SWIM]

I used to like to build things with Lego when I was a kid.

 

Ever notice how close LEGO is to the word LOGO? Be carefull not to spell out words with the lego blocks, it will end up being scripture, then you will have to battle the church to get it included in the bible... More trouble then it's worth, just leave the legos alone...

 

hehe

If I get one of those gray plates you can build upon, I can call myself a Lego Fundamentalist.

 

I just got the Star Wars Lego game for the Wii. It's SOOO MUCH FUN. No brain needed, just run around and swing your light saber.

 

 

That sounds like fun, I have a Wii, really great at golf and bowling on it. I have to check that out, I like easy games. I also have "Call Of Duty" but I don't think the original designers intended it for Wii. Kinda really hard to beat, and the hand to hand combat can wear you out, pushing and hitting them swinging your arms around LOL.

[Evolution_beyond]

Either way take care EB.

 

Ok. You take care too.

 

It seems we've finally reached the point where I have no further questions.

 

Your faith seems to be a positive one, so I have no real quarrel with it. All the best in your continuing life journey

[SWIM]

Well I came back to answer yours and Hans questions EB, and I am glad I have not annoyed you or cause you any unrest, but from some of the responses I get I know that I am bugging others here and that was not my intent when I came here.

 

Don't flatter yourself. Someone like myself that has worked their way out of a fire and brimstone religion is not easily angered or annoyed. However, I must say your refusal to answer a straight question is a bit frustrating.

 

 

Kinda dodges questions and issues with very weak responses eh?

[Deva]

Well I came back to answer yours and Hans questions EB, and I am glad I have not annoyed you or cause you any unrest, but from some of the responses I get I know that I am bugging others here and that was not my intent when I came here.

 

Don't flatter yourself. Someone like myself that has worked their way out of a fire and brimstone religion is not easily angered or annoyed. However, I must say your refusal to answer a straight question is a bit frustrating.

 

 

Kinda dodges questions and issues with very weak responses eh?

 

Yeah, Michael, but he is not nearly as irritating as his collegue, "women have their place" Kratos over in the Colosseum.

[Grandpa Harley]

My bringing that up did somewhat damage his credibility...

[JayL]

I do not believe that it is unreasonable to expect proof. I mean how could I say that when this is what it took for me. I was raised Catholic so knew the whole Jesus story, but I had left as soon as my parents divorced at 12 and I was old enough to tell my mother "No, I ain't going to your church cause I don't believe". I was 28 with my .38 on the pillow and ready to check out when I just in desperation looked up and said "If you are real and care, you better do something now or I am out of here". This is when He came into the room and spoke to me. I covered my head from the light on the bed and slid onto the floor and stayed that way for hours after He left utterly terrified. Like Paul, I saw the light through my arms and heard the voice, but would not look at Him. In the 24 years I have been a Christian, I have only shared this maybe a half dozen times as it is too personal and I always hated the thought of someone mocking it. Why I share it here, I don't know.

 

Anyway, I do not expect anyone to believe by my experience.

I fully believe you experienced that. I've experienced something very similar. A point in my life of great crisis; an event that took me to the edge of death; a cry of desperation for help out into the utter darkness; white light suddenly appearing everywhere, in an instant driving everything else out that tormented me; a complete cessation of time; infinite peace, infinite love, infinite knowledge, infinite awareness, infinite power, infinite grace and compassion, all in only a sliver of an inconceivable infinity that lay beyond that; and then a gentle voice of infinite compassion and awareness speaking only my name, conveying my life's story before my eyes in an instant of utter timelessness with the knowledge spoken without words to my mind that I was never alone, that was loved beyond all knowledge. Shall I continue?

 

Rising from this vision I felt all the pain of my heart come gushing out of the deepest part of my soul in a torrent of tears, being both afraid and amazed at what had just happened. Two days later, I began what began my lifelong search for understanding of this. Being raised in a Christian culture, seeking out a minister seemed the most appropriate beginning. I openly shared my experience with wonder and puzzlement in my voice, to the stolid looks of the minister who gave little response. The following day I spoke to another, this time a Catholic priest, who likewise sat with a blank stare and his offering what I learned later to be the typical Catholic response of asking if I had anything to confess.

 

I left feeling discouraged, lost, and confused, yet with this knowledge in my heart. Suddenly, without any warning or indication, the entire Universe opened to me before my eyes, as if a great curtain opened in an instant. I suddenly saw for the first time in my life - color. The world was full of color, with vibrant greens and blues everywhere! The World was full of light and love and color, and permeated everything as a sort of living joy that surrounded me, moved through me, and began flowing out of the most unimaginably deepest part of my being out into the world in a sort of song, as can only be described as utter, living love.

 

I saw people walking by me, and rather than feeling darkness and shame in my heart and averting my eyes away as in my past, instead I felt pure love and joy. No thoughts of darkness were in me anywhere at that moment, and I felt truly alive for the first time in my life.

 

From this point began the life-long quest of mine that I stumbled about to build upon, again making the mistake of looking for answers from ministers. Two years later, and no further towards finding answers I happened upon a very charismatic Biblical literalist whose convictions of truth inspired me. I was caught into the snare, and found myself convinced somehow that all this was somehow God calling me to serve him in the ministry. I enrolled in Bible College and graduated top of my class with a degree in theology, all the while being ripped apart inside by the conflict of what was in my heart, and what was being portrayed about God.

 

You can read the rest of my story I posted here two years ago if you are interested: http://www.ex-christ...wtopic=6730&hl=

 

The point is, to this day I still embrace what I experienced. I still accept it as real. I however do not believe it says anything about a particular theology about a particular God from a particular religion. I'm planning to share my thoughts on what this means to me in another thread I'm having with Ruby in the Arena forum here called, "Evidence of the Heart". So I'll save my thoughts for there, as they are going to get long - very long. (be patient as my time is limited these days for awhile)

 

P.S. In my testimony link I included above, I skipped over the first part of what I mentioned here. I didn't feel comfortable at that time to mention it.

 

 

 

Wow! That is a genuine 'born again' experience as far as I can tell !