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Goodbye Jesus

The Doctrine Of Hell


SWIM

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just my two cents

 

I know many will disagree and thats ok, Im fine with that.

 

 

Sojourner,

 

Thanks for sharing that.

 

As an xtian I was never one to receive visions, dreams or revelations.

 

I sence that your underlying desire/belief is that, for lack of better words, "we all get along" and be "one with creation" and hence one with each other. Does your experience allow you to embrace (accept as equals or partners) people of all faith? Atheists?

 

As an atheist, I find myself on the outside. Party pushed out and partly pushing away from others. Atheists can also form their own "special" group and self-isolate like religious people. It doesn't further world peace eh?

 

Mongo

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just my two cents

 

I know many will disagree and thats ok, Im fine with that.

 

 

Sojourner,

 

Thanks for sharing that.

 

As an xtian I was never one to receive visions, dreams or revelations.

 

I sence that your underlying desire/belief is that, for lack of better words, "we all get along" and be "one with creation" and hence one with each other. Does your experience allow you to embrace (accept as equals or partners) people of all faith? Atheists?

 

As an atheist, I find myself on the outside. Party pushed out and partly pushing away from others. Atheists can also form their own "special" group and self-isolate like religious people. It doesn't further world peace eh?

 

Mongo

 

Do I accept people of all faiths or all faiths of all people?

I know what has changed my life and become life to me. Let me put it this way, can I converse with a buddhist and not feel I have to evangelise him and that though he is saying many of the same truths I believe that he is somehow deceived and lost and needs to be saved and I am the one sent to tell him though he has great understanding and truth he needs to get born again? At this point in my life I can honestly say when I hear truth no matter the vessel or what or whom they serve I honor that truth and I believe God has given it to them no matter who they are and what they believe. Now that would presume that i know truth, well the only truth I know is what is truth revealed to me haha so all I can say is when I hear that same truth through anyone I recognize it and believe its origin is the same God who is all truth to me.

 

I hear that same truth in many posts here that Im reading.......so to me God is speaking here thru the folks here whether they would term that voice as Gods or not.

 

yes athiests are just as much become a special seperate group as other groups huh? This is my first time to really talk much with athiests. Before this time in my life I just believed athiests were simply unsaved heathens that needed to be evangelised. I didnt talk to them cause who knows, I might be led astray by them and have my faith shipwrecked....

 

but in all honestly it doesnt seem to matter where I go read and get to know folks anymore cause everywhere I go we just all are the same to me. Humans on a voyage of discovery becoming what and who we are

 

kept

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At this point in my life I can honestly say when I hear truth no matter the vessel or what or whom they serve I honor that truth and I believe God has given it to them no matter who they are and what they believe.

And that is something special... this is something that is so very rare amongst Christians. (going by the type I run into anyway)

 

I am, quite frankly, in shock. For the first time this year, I've met a Christian who's not insisting that they have the Truth, that only they "know" what's what, and that we're all gonna burn for being a polyp on the anus of life.

 

 

 

I'm going for a coffee... I need to recover. :twitch:

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Well here we go into what will be termed possibly as emotionalism or mysticism but this is how it happened in my life. Id been a christian for many years, when suddenly one night alone in my living room my heart was literally overwhelmed with love for all creation, not just for the select or the elect or for those that thought and looked and acted like me, it was a miracle in my life. For the first time in my life I was actually in love with the entire creation! I cannot explain it any other way but in my own heart and mind I knew that God was nothing like what Id been taught. Many things happened to confirm this belief and its been 7 years now and this belief grows within my spirit and sustains me. Just like some seem to be sustained on the belief there is no God, I am sustained by the belief that God is working in all mankind and behind the scenes passionately in love with every cell in His great creation.

 

Why do you believe he is passionately in love with all things in creation? There are horrors in all levels of lifeforms. From fire ants engulfing a puppy, to lions eating it's prey alive, there are many things in nature that point to:

 

a: no god exists at all

b: god is passive, silent and none intrusive, be it love or hate.

 

How is he working "behind the scenes" or working "at all" for that matter? Hatred abounds, religious intolerance abounds, wars abound... Seems if anyone at all is working behind the scenes it is the "devil", or nothing at all.

 

So you say the acts of ants and lions are natural? So could you say then are the acts of man. Mankind has struggled with it's ability to think on it's own. We worshiped the Sun and Moon, plants, forests, mythical creatures. We as a species have killed each other, even burned each other alive in the name of god. Why? Is it "evil" that caused these things, or fear and ignorance?

 

 

I then went to the bible that I had parroted for years and began to see this great belief on every page, because as you might agree, whatever we believe we tend to see everywhere. Id had a great paradigm shift and now all I could see everywhere was this wonderful God working in the midst of sometimes a very chaotic world. Even the worst things that I would hear and see I suddenly saw differently, as temporary sufferings and lacks in us of that great love manifesting in our lives. For if we really grasped this love, we wouldn't hurt each other, we really would love our neighbors as ourselves. But as long as we live in an us and them mentality, as long as we separate ourselves in our beliefs and thoughts from the rest of mankind or a group then how can we love them as ourselves?

 

Do unto others as you would have done to you, is NOT biblical, it is first grade level social common sense. We know this instinctively because we live in a great pack know as mankind. It is not so much out of love, but survival. We separate ourselves into smaller packs too, different levels of intellect, different religions etc etc. Within the smaller "packs" or communities if you like that word better, "do unto others" philosophy has teeth. Since others are near you, you can *expect* vengeance if you rail against someone, and you can at least mildly expect an easier life by doing "good". It is a social mechanism, not an act of love.

 

truth to me is we are all of one lump. We all have great capacity for evil and good, no exceptions to me. We all are the same. There just isn't a separate class of folks, the haves and the have nots. In my understanding God is at work in all mankind.

 

What is Evil and Good?

 

Isn't "evil" just another word for "damaged"? Think about it. Why do people do what we call "evil"? In science there is really no such thing as good and evil, there is merely what "is". People do alleged evil because of various malfunctions. Brain damage, psychological damage, misdirection among other things. Example, most serial killers have different MRIs then normal people, they have turbulent histories, sexual abuse, physical abuse etc. Poor genes, or just plain random genetic defects cause it too. Some people seem evil for the "fun" of it, but deep deep down there is always a reason (cause and effect). So if EVIL people are in fact "evil" due to explainable problems within them, then are they *really* evil, or are they ILL in some way?

 

Just like GOOD. It "feels good" to do good, (selfish reason), we can benefit from doing good (going to heaven, or getting the favor returned someday). Folks do it worrying about karma too. Compassion is a big player in the "good" camp. But compassion is merely the ability to put oneself in an other's shoes, it does not mean you are being "good" it means you can relate, and you know you wouldn't like the situation, so you help out, in order to relieve some sort of proxy anxiety.

 

IMO good and evil are merely concepts of reality and do not really exist. They are descriptors for destructive vs non-destructive behaviour.

 

 

I may seem very religious to you all when saying this but speaking for me I feel as if religion is the most repulsive thing there is. Is responsible for almost every war ever fought. Is responsible for most of the hatred and strife in the world. Is responsible for most of the condemnation and shame people feel. I want it all out of me and my hope is that all that will be left is love. I see this love in a good God and in Jesus Christ.

 

Yet when being *repulsed* by religion, you EMBRACE it. Look at the last sentence of that quote. You are identifying yourself as christian, while in the same paragraph rejecting religion... Did you *invent* your own form of christianity? If so, *why* include jesus in your belief structure? What makes you believe there is enough truth in the bible to make you *accept* jesus, but *reject* the majority of it's contents? Is it fear or pascal's wager? There is no evidence, bible or otherwise, that jesus even existed, much less had anything more to do with god, then say you or I. You only get the *jesus* stuff from religion.

 

to me when the bible talks about a separation like the sheep and goats, and such, it is speaking about those religious and hateful evil natures that can hide within men being separated from what they really are to be in their own minds, blinded to the good seed that is within them that is destined to bear the fruit of love for all. Gods seed to me is in everyman, everyman is capable of the greatest good and the deepest love because he is made in Gods image. Likewise because of ignorance of this truth and religion that would tell man otherwise many walk not in who God has created them to be but in a false identity that they have been taught to believe is them. They cant see Him yet within their own being but that doesn't mean He is not there.

 

The *evil* nature in man is sometimes defined as the primal, animal instincts in man. When *unchecked* it is like the primal urge to procreate causes (along with other problems) rape, date rape and porno addiction. It's not *evil* it is a desire gone unchecked, unstopped for various reasons, but there are *reasons* it is not just raw *evil*.

 

 

I know many will disagree and that's ok, I'm fine with that. I understand by reading what little I have read here that many here see the great good that is within them of human origin and chalk it all up to being human. I simply see it as being God living in mankind, whom are His house, His home and dwelling place.

 

 

Funny how you *know* many will disagree with you. Think about it, why do you *know* this? Perhaps the common sense you are suppressing is somehow making it to your conscious mind?

 

Why would god *live* in mankind, when the universe is without measure? What about the animals? The fish? The insects? The plants? If you look at the *really* big picture, then god must be not only dwelling in everything everywhere throughout the universe, like the "Force" from starwars, or he does not exist, or he is impassionate like a third party observer.

 

Did I give you some food for thought? Not attacking you, just sharing some of my own *two cents*.

 

;)

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Did I give you some food for thought? Not attacking you, just sharing some of my own *two cents*.

 

;)

 

Ah... and there it is... atheists pushing away from theists.

 

So, go easy folks, Sojourner is the kind of xtian we should embrace not push away.

 

My **two cents**.

 

Mongo

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Well here we go into what will be termed possibly as emotionalism or mysticism but this is how it happened in my life. Id been a christian for many years, when suddenly one night alone in my living room my heart was literally overwhelmed with love for all creation, not just for the select or the elect or for those that thought and looked and acted like me, it was a miracle in my life. For the first time in my life I was actually in love with the entire creation! I cannot explain it any other way but in my own heart and mind I knew that God was nothing like what Id been taught. Many things happened to confirm this belief and its been 7 years now and this belief grows within my spirit and sustains me. Just like some seem to be sustained on the belief there is no God, I am sustained by the belief that God is working in all mankind and behind the scenes passionately in love with every cell in His great creation.

 

Why do you believe he is passionately in love with all things in creation? There are horrors in all levels of lifeforms. From fire ants engulfing a puppy, to lions eating it's prey alive, there are many things in nature that point to:

 

a: no god exists at all

b: god is passive, silent and none intrusive, be it love or hate.

 

How is he working "behind the scenes" or working "at all" for that matter? Hatred abounds, religious intolerance abounds, wars abound... Seems if anyone at all is working behind the scenes it is the "devil", or nothing at all.

 

I see Him behind the scenes if you will in that I hear God speaking thru folks that dont believe in Him. When I see kindness I attribute it to His love working thru mankind. Where as you would attribute it to mankind alone, correct?

 

So you say the acts of ants and lions are natural? So could you say then are the acts of man. Mankind has struggled with it's ability to think on it's own. We worshiped the Sun and Moon, plants, forests, mythical creatures. We as a species have killed each other, even burned each other alive in the name of god. Why? Is it "evil" that caused these things, or fear and ignorance?

 

To my understanding where I am currently, until this great love of God manifests thru out all creation we will bite and devour one another. Where I differ from most christians is that to me that love is there, just in seed form where it is not manifesting yet.

 

I then went to the bible that I had parroted for years and began to see this great belief on every page, because as you might agree, whatever we believe we tend to see everywhere. Id had a great paradigm shift and now all I could see everywhere was this wonderful God working in the midst of sometimes a very chaotic world. Even the worst things that I would hear and see I suddenly saw differently, as temporary sufferings and lacks in us of that great love manifesting in our lives. For if we really grasped this love, we wouldn't hurt each other, we really would love our neighbors as ourselves. But as long as we live in an us and them mentality, as long as we separate ourselves in our beliefs and thoughts from the rest of mankind or a group then how can we love them as ourselves?

 

Do unto others as you would have done to you, is NOT biblical, it is first grade level social common sense. We know this instinctively because we live in a great pack know as mankind. It is not so much out of love, but survival. We separate ourselves into smaller packs too, different levels of intellect, different religions etc etc. Within the smaller "packs" or communities if you like that word better, "do unto others" philosophy has teeth. Since others are near you, you can *expect* vengeance if you rail against someone, and you can at least mildly expect an easier life by doing "good". It is a social mechanism, not an act of love.

 

Whether it is social mechanism to you or flows out of God to me, I term it love whereas you term it social mechanism and when it flows out of me to you it is totally human in origin and 101 where as when it flows out of me to you or you to me it is Gods love to me.

 

truth to me is we are all of one lump. We all have great capacity for evil and good, no exceptions to me. We all are the same. There just isn't a separate class of folks, the haves and the have nots. In my understanding God is at work in all mankind.

 

What is Evil and Good?

 

Isn't "evil" just another word for "damaged"? Think about it. Why do people do what we call "evil"? In science there is really no such thing as good and evil, there is merely what "is". People do alleged evil because of various malfunctions. Brain damage, psychological damage, misdirection among other things. Example, most serial killers have different MRIs then normal people, they have turbulent histories, sexual abuse, physical abuse etc. Poor genes, or just plain random genetic defects cause it too. Some people seem evil for the "fun" of it, but deep deep down there is always a reason (cause and effect). So if EVIL people are in fact "evil" due to explainable problems within them, then are they *really* evil, or are they ILL in some way?

 

Just like GOOD. It "feels good" to do good, (selfish reason), we can benefit from doing good (going to heaven, or getting the favor returned someday). Folks do it worrying about karma too. Compassion is a big player in the "good" camp. But compassion is merely the ability to put oneself in an other's shoes, it does not mean you are being "good" it means you can relate, and you know you wouldn't like the situation, so you help out, in order to relieve some sort of proxy anxiety.

 

IMO good and evil are merely concepts of reality and do not really exist. They are descriptors for destructive vs non-destructive behaviour.

 

To me good and evil on one level are no more than man trying to live up or down some ideal or belief, it is good if man tries to be kind, loving and such, it is bad if man tries to be unkind and such. That is one level of good and evil and is just nothing in the scheme of things, it will vanish, its temporary to me, depthless.......the good as well as the evil and in the bible if you will, is part of the same tree of knowledge but is not part of the tree of Life.

 

But true good is God. And true evil is simply where God is not manifesting His good to my current understanding.

 

 

I may seem very religious to you all when saying this but speaking for me I feel as if religion is the most repulsive thing there is. Is responsible for almost every war ever fought. Is responsible for most of the hatred and strife in the world. Is responsible for most of the condemnation and shame people feel. I want it all out of me and my hope is that all that will be left is love. I see this love in a good God and in Jesus Christ.

 

Yet when being *repulsed* by religion, you EMBRACE it. Look at the last sentence of that quote. You are identifying yourself as christian, while in the same paragraph rejecting religion... Did you *invent* your own form of christianity? If so, *why* include jesus in your belief structure? What makes you believe there is enough truth in the bible to make you *accept* jesus, but *reject* the majority of it's contents? Is it fear or pascal's wager? There is no evidence, bible or otherwise, that jesus even existed, much less had anything more to do with god, then say you or I. You only get the *jesus* stuff from religion.

 

Yeah, I told you in the first sentance you would see me as religious afterall even though to me it repulses me. lol To you I will seem ignorant and still religous Im sure, but to me I hear in many of you all truth that can only come when religion begins to fade away, and that is what I liked in what I was reading on this forum. oh well, its like this, in my case, cant hang with the christians either very well but I guess for some reason I thought perhaps because of the wonderful freedom in many of you , maybe just maybe you could see some of that same freedom in me. lol And just maybe you could see there are some christians out there that arent all caught up in religious exercises but really do have something in common with you all that have left it behind.

 

to me when the bible talks about a separation like the sheep and goats, and such, it is speaking about those religious and hateful evil natures that can hide within men being separated from what they really are to be in their own minds, blinded to the good seed that is within them that is destined to bear the fruit of love for all. Gods seed to me is in everyman, everyman is capable of the greatest good and the deepest love because he is made in Gods image. Likewise because of ignorance of this truth and religion that would tell man otherwise many walk not in who God has created them to be but in a false identity that they have been taught to believe is them. They cant see Him yet within their own being but that doesn't mean He is not there.

 

The *evil* nature in man is sometimes defined as the primal, animal instincts in man. When *unchecked* it is like the primal urge to procreate causes (along with other problems) rape, date rape and porno addiction. It's not *evil* it is a desire gone unchecked, unstopped for various reasons, but there are *reasons* it is not just raw *evil*.

 

Even the bible would agree with that, it says all men are beasts......on one level we are. But we are much much more as well. Spiritual beings created in Gods image.

 

I know many will disagree and that's ok, I'm fine with that. I understand by reading what little I have read here that many here see the great good that is within them of human origin and chalk it all up to being human. I simply see it as being God living in mankind, whom are His house, His home and dwelling place.

 

 

Funny how you *know* many will disagree with you. Think about it, why do you *know* this? Perhaps the common sense you are suppressing is somehow making it to your conscious mind?

 

Well by reading some posts what I meant was that anything that I would chalk up to God you all would chalk up to man.

 

Why would god *live* in mankind, when the universe is without measure? What about the animals? The fish? The insects? The plants? If you look at the *really* big picture, then god must be not only dwelling in everything everywhere throughout the universe, like the "Force" from starwars, or he does not exist, or he is impassionate like a third party observer.

 

Did I give you some food for thought? Not attacking you, just sharing some of my own *two cents*.

 

;)

 

I know you are not attacking me, and I appreciate you taking the time to just talk to me and be respectful.

 

I have been beaten up by enough christians that I am well aware how mean some can be and in fact years ago I was just like that too. Ready to slice and dice all in the name of Jesus. So I totally expect that some of that familiarity will cause many of you to lump me in a category of hateful christians that are out to set you all straight.

 

sojourner

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I know you are not attacking me, and I appreciate you taking the time to just talk to me and be respectful.

 

I have been beaten up by enough christians that I am well aware how mean some can be and in fact years ago I was just like that too. Ready to slice and dice all in the name of Jesus. So I totally expect that some of that familiarity will cause many of you to lump me in a category of hateful christians that are out to set you all straight.

 

sojourner

 

Oh well, you can bring a horse to water, but....

 

Anyway, welcome to ex-c. Perhaps someone else can explain it all better, I don't feel inclined to do a multi-segmented reply to what I feel was pretty much already clearly explained, with the main points all dismissed/ignored/rejected. It's all up to you. I think you are here because you are on the brink of loosing your religion. I know this is blunt, but I see no other motive to be here with only a *very* tiny bit of religion, exposing what little of it you have left to atheist.

 

You *must* have known on some level you would get a response similar to mine.

 

I wish you luck on your journey, and I am well aware it does not happen overnight.

 

Good luck to you.

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Ok, thats fine and quite acceptable to still chat if you ever want to, if you see me that way, seriously and there is some truth to that too. for sure I am being set free from much religion and may have much more to go than I currently am aware of. And you all may be exactly the ones to help me get there.

 

what I differ on, is being set free from religion is not necessarily being set free to unbelief in God

 

I believe at this time that one can become free of religion and still believe in God

 

thanks

 

sojourner

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what I differ on, is being set free from religion is not necessarily being set free to unbelief in God

 

I believe at this time that one can become free of religion and still believe in God

 

 

Actually, I am not totally an atheist. Sounds hard to believe after reading what I write, but it's true. Too many things of a spiritual nature that still puzzle me to this day have occured for me to dismiss the *possiblity* that there is something *more then meets the eye* out there.

 

What do I believe then? *Nothing*.... But but you said you were not an atheist... (pardon me anticpating your answer). I speculate. I free-think. No box for god, and I *am* open to the possiblity that it does not exist at all. I have no proof, I feel *if* there is a god it is passive, sexless (no he or she) and is far, far beyond our current ability to understand. Kind of like a puppy staring up at a scientist's chaulkboard, the puppy may find the equations "interesting" but the brain inside the puppy is not capable of learning it, no matter how it struggles and trys.

 

Proof is needed for the word *belief* to kick in. Untill *proof* is given, I will always be in speculation mode.

 

Cheers :)

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Sojourner - I like you ;)

 

I was a liberal form of christian too (long time ago now) - and I've been on a long journey of spiritual/philosophical discovery. The whole New Age trip and looking into paganism, hinduism and buddhism along the way. After leaving christianity behind I was eager not to actually get involved in the religious practises or organisation but I did a lot of searching on a philosophical level (the level of beliefs).

 

Eventually, earlier this year, I stripped away the last vestige of religious belief and my pantheism (as it had become) became atheism (although I do call myself a pan-atheist sometimes :) )

 

I don't think there is any harm in spiritual beliefs that are peacefull and accepting of those who are different and that are open to questions, doubts and rationality.

 

The time may come in the future when you can let go of theism and realise that it is not as scarey as you feared to lose belief in an afterlife and that the Universe and life won't lose any of their wonder or beauty when released from pointless anthropomorphism and accepted on their own terms. On the contrary, the wonder will increase and the experience of no longer believing in a God watching your every move is a happy and liberating one.

 

On the other hand, that time may not come - and it may be me who realises he is wrong. After all I don't know there is no God - it's just that there is no need to believe in God to explain reality. But it is not as certain as my conviction that if there is a God he cannot be like the conventional Christian one. So I could in theory be proved wrong about my atheism, but I suspect that it would be my previous "the Universe is conscious" pantheism that turns out to be true rather than a more anthropomorphic God.

 

In any case, enjoy the journey (and welcome to Ex-C)

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TY Evolution,

 

I too have ventured into all kinds of belief systems, from newage, hinduism and well hodge podge, but only after 20 years as a christian alone that would never have dared look into those things for fear of being deceived. Im sure many a christian probably thinks that is what happened afterall lol. I was shocked mostly by the very real evidence that everyone out there in other belief systems werent void of experiances and wisdom that was very spiritual and very much akin to my own in christianity. That was ummm enlightening I should say and very challanging. Im still reeling in some ways from that and still some things are falling off me.

 

I have no idea why Im really here, I hope that you all will just endure me lol till I figure it out.

 

perhaps we will learn from each other , it could happen, never know

 

sojourner

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God is righteous and God has spoken and those who did not obey God during their lifetime on earth will be thrown to hell on the last day when God will judge all the living and the dead. God would not be righteous if He will take all people, good and bad, obedient to Him and disobedient to Him, to heaven to live with Him forever. The earth is like fire where gold is passed seven times to make it pure. For those who believe, the Holy Bible is the Word of God and it is the truth. It is up for everyone of us to believe or not to believe.

 

In what way is it righteous to throw a human being in hell for eternity because he didn't believe for the short span of a lifetime, even a long lifetime? How is that right?

 

According to what you say, most of the earth's population that ever existed is going to hell. How does that make you feel?

 

How would God be righteous if He will take both the obedient and the disobedient to heaven to live with Him forever? And fight in heaven? God has spoken and He will give the reward of everlasting life with Him in heaven to those obedient and punish the disobedient in hell. It is not impossible to obey God and studying and understanding the Word of God is the answer to the problems. I am very sad to see people going to hell and the best thing I can do is to preach the Word and help people understand the Word of God.

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God is righteous and God has spoken and those who did not obey God during their lifetime on earth will be thrown to hell on the last day when God will judge all the living and the dead. God would not be righteous if He will take all people, good and bad, obedient to Him and disobedient to Him, to heaven to live with Him forever. The earth is like fire where gold is passed seven times to make it pure. For those who believe, the Holy Bible is the Word of God and it is the truth. It is up for everyone of us to believe or not to believe.

 

In what way is it righteous to throw a human being in hell for eternity because he didn't believe for the short span of a lifetime, even a long lifetime? How is that right?

 

According to what you say, most of the earth's population that ever existed is going to hell. How does that make you feel?

 

How would God be righteous if He will take both the obedient and the disobedient to heaven to live with Him forever? And fight in heaven? God has spoken and He will give the reward of everlasting life with Him in heaven to those obedient and punish the disobedient in hell. It is not impossible to obey God and studying and understanding the Word of God is the answer to the problems. I am very sad to see people going to hell and the best thing I can do is to preach the Word and help people understand the Word of God.

 

The religious belief in a hell and a heaven (or several layers of hells and heavens) are way older than your Christian dribble. They are man-made, fictional realms devised to coerse people into correct (or at least preferred) behaviour. If you truly believe that there are realms of fire for bad people and realms of peace and happiness for good people after you are dust, you are truly deluded. Do you believe too in leprechauns? Fairies? Talking donkies - oh wait, that's in the bible so you believe in those. How about talking snakes - oh wait, you believe in those too, ok how about dragons and flying chariots - o heck, you believe in those too................

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I am very sad to see people going to hell and the best thing I can do is to preach the Word and help people understand the Word of God.

Uh... Arsenia... You do realize that preaching here is counterproductive to your cause? Every time you quote from the Bible or dump some ridiculous apologetic in front of us, it gives us yet another opportunity to debunk your religion. Those who have already deconverted are reassured that they made the right decision, and the undecided move one step closer to tossing Christianity on the trash heap.

 

By the way, I myself have already chosen Hell. Read this.

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How would God be righteous if He will take both the obedient and the disobedient to heaven to live with Him forever?

So righteousness has to do with obedience?

 

Who is God obedient to so he can be righteous too?

 

Or is it that "righteousness" is simply defined by what God say it is? And if it is so, then he can make "disobedience" to be just as righteous as anything else. After all, doesn't he want people to go to Heaven? And doesn't he want people to use their free will?

 

Free Will includes disobedience. If Free Will mean to always obey, wouldn't that be the behavior of a slave or a robot? Is that what God wants? Robots?

 

Do you treat your kids that way? You only love them and accept them as family if they do everything you tell them to do, and if they chose anything different than what you want, you will disowe them?

 

Basically what you're saying is that God is powerless and can't do anything. God is bound to his own idea of righteousness and can't break free from that bondage. Hence your God is powerless and weak.

 

And fight in heaven?

What about Satan before the fall? Was that fight in Heaven or somewhere else?

 

God has spoken and He will give the reward of everlasting life with Him in heaven to those obedient and punish the disobedient in hell. It is not impossible to obey God and studying and understanding the Word of God is the answer to the problems. I am very sad to see people going to hell and the best thing I can do is to preach the Word and help people understand the Word of God.

Have you been in Hell? How can you say you "see" people go to Hell unless you really see people go to Hell? Or is it that you only talk about imagining how people go there?

 

Aresnia, do you believe in the words "do to others what you want them do to you"? If you do, and what you're doing right now is preaching and trying to convert us, would you like us to go to your Church and preach and try to de-convert people in your church? If not, why do you then do what you don't want us do to you? Hypocrite!

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I am a translator of the Holy Bible from Greek to English as spoken and those who did not obey God during their lifetime on earth will be thrown to hell on the last day when God will judge all the living and the dead. God would not be righteous if He will take all people, good and bad, obedient to Him and disobedient to Him, to heaven to live with Him forever.

 

So miss *translator" tell me then, how you define the term "Unconditional Love"? You are saying god would NOT be rightous if he loved and accepted everyone, whom he also knew in advance would be born and do what they do. (If anyone can see the future, god's your guy right?) Wouldn't he be a sadistic bastard for letting people be *born* knowing they were going to eternal hell? Better to not exist right?

 

Logic please miss translator.

 

God gave us the freedom to choose. God loves all of us. But God does not force anybody to obey Him. And He has spoken - those who obey will go to heaven to live with Him forever but those who disobey will go to hell. There are children of God and there are children of Satan. It is not impossible to obey God. And the Lord Jesus said If you love me keep my commandments. It is not the fault of God if somebody is thrown to hell.

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Oh, didn't you know the Greek Hades/Hell is a Myth, while Christian Hades/Hell is not! ;)

 

Nuh-uh...Ahuramazda's hell is the only true hell, everything written about hell afterwards is a myth! :P

Glory! Another believer!!! Angra Ahriman will have a field day with all those false Christians.

 

Here's yet another angle that is confusing: if God's intention was to let humans have a choice to go to Heaven or Hell, and Free Will was the big deal. Basically it is a big test to see if we want to believe in God or not, and we're rewared if we do, and punished if we don't, then I must ask, Why did God create Satan to tempt us? Why not just create humans, and no angels or demons or devil, but just humans and then tested our dedication? Why did he make it harder on purpose? Only explanation is that he doesn't want anyone to believe, he wants everyone to suffer and fail. So Christianity is just another attempt from God to make a joke out of us... or God just simply doesn't exist.

 

The clay cannot complain to the potter, whatever the potter does with the clay. God is the Potter and we are the clay. All of us have created something in our life and we did what we wanted to do. The author does whatever he likes to his characters. Those who are parents understand if they have disobedient children. If the God in the Holy Bible doesn't exist, who created us and everything in the world?

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How would God be righteous if He will take both the obedient and the disobedient to heaven to live with Him forever? And fight in heaven? God has spoken and He will give the reward of everlasting life with Him in heaven to those obedient and punish the disobedient in hell. It is not impossible to obey God and studying and understanding the Word of God is the answer to the problems. I am very sad to see people going to hell and the best thing I can do is to preach the Word and help people understand the Word of God.

 

Maybe God sees and understands all the confusions, pain, fear and psychological mechanisms that caused that person to be bad. And maybe he heals and renews that person so that they can get into heaven. Maybe he always does this because he is unconditionally loving and forgiving. Maybe he does this because he created all the urges and mechanisms that cause people to go wrong sometimes. Maybe he does this because he gave us Free Will for the purpose of being able to learn, explore and grow - so there is no sense in punishment, only improvement.

 

Have you ever thought of any of that? How come I can imagine a God who is morally better than the God you profess? Doesn't that make you wonder whether this notion of Hell is a false man-made doctrine?

 

God, if he exists, would not be like human beings - and maybe human beings just can't understand an unconditional, all-knowing love and so they have to make God seem petty and vengeful instead. It is man-made error you worship, not God.

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If the God in the Holy Bible doesn't exist, who created us and everything in the world?

 

Geeze, there's a thought provoking, unanswerable question...

I see the light. It MUST have been the god of the holey bible.

 

I bet there isn't one person here who can answer such a tough question...

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If the God in the Holy Bible doesn't exist, who created us and everything in the world?

 

Why does it have to be a who? Why does there have to be a reason or explanation for life? Why can't Christians just be happy that they are indeed alive, right here right now, for a few brief decades before becoming dust? Why do they have to dwell on the impermanence of life and make up stories just so that they can feel better about death? Creating fictional stories, gods, demons, "sins" etc... will not change that fact that we are born and we die - never to return. Rejoice in the now of life, something truly precious and worth celebrating.

 

Quite clearly, from reading through the bible, one can see that man alone has greater morals than the "God" of Israel.

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God gave us the freedom to choose. God loves all of us. But God does not force anybody to obey Him. And He has spoken - those who obey will go to heaven to live with Him forever but those who disobey will go to hell. There are children of God and there are children of Satan. It is not impossible to obey God. And the Lord Jesus said If you love me keep my commandments. It is not the fault of God if somebody is thrown to hell.

Yet the Bible states very clearly that God has plans for each of us and that we cannot do anything to change those plans... which means we have no free will, no freedom to choose and it's all God's choice as to who goes to hell or not.

 

If God is the one making the choice, and the Bible makes it clear that it is, then it's all God's fault if someone gets thrown into hell, since that's God's plan for them.

 

Seriously, the whole free will argument goes against the Bible. It's only used so that Christians can blame us for what God created us to do so God can be innocent of the evil it does... and it doesn't work.

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The clay cannot complain to the potter, whatever the potter does with the clay. God is the Potter and we are the clay.

Listen. Look at it from this perspective:

 

You have a potter who makes a pot. The pot is beautiful and he puts it on a shelf for everyone to see. So far everything is fine.

 

Then the potter makes a pot that doesn't look so good, and he breaks it and throws it away. That's okay too.

 

But now, the Bible describes a different kind of potter. God doesn't just break the bad pot away, but he starts to stamp on it, burn it, slam it, ram it, curse at it and jump on it for eternity. That to me shows that he has an tantrum rather than a just mind.

 

Your God will punish for eternity, the clay that he intentionally made bad. That's a sign of a mad-man.

 

All of us have created something in our life and we did what we wanted to do. The author does whatever he likes to his characters.

That's okay too, but the thing you created in your life that you didn't like, did you go to the extreme and punished that "thing" for the rest of your life?

 

Does the author burn all the books and write books after books about how much he wants to torture the characters in his books? And then burns the books again and the write more books and spill his anger over the characters HE made up?

 

Those who are parents understand if they have disobedient children.

Okay.

 

So what do you do if you child is disobedient?

 

My apporoach is ONE punishment that is limited in time and size. I talk to them.

 

What does God do? God doesn't talk to the person, but to someone else 2000 years ago, and then he gives one ETERNAL punishment in FIRE.

 

Do you see a slight difference in how large the resolution is between these two?

 

So tell me, do you really put gasoline on your kids and put them on fire? Are you as cruel as God? I don't think so. I think you show more mercy and love than God.

 

Please humor me, tell me, do you stone your unruly kids? That's Biblical. But yet I'm certain that you don't do it. Why? Do you intentionally disobey God because you show more love than him? Does your love to your family go before obedience? Shame on you! You're disobedient to God and tell us to convert. Hypocrite!

 

If the God in the Holy Bible doesn't exist, who created us and everything in the world?

Bob did.

 

You see your question is wrong since you plant the word "created" in there. You assume it was created and by that you ask "who". The universe just "IS" just like your God supposedly just "IS". If you can believe that God can exist without time, and for eternity and outside of space, then I can believe there is a infinite multiverse that have existed for eternity. It is not much different from your belief, the only difference is that I don't believe this multiverse to be "thinking", it is not sentient, it just "is".

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God gave us the freedom to choose. God loves all of us. But God does not force anybody to obey Him. And He has spoken - those who obey will go to heaven to live with Him forever but those who disobey will go to hell.

Don't you see how unloving and cruel this is? It's the sign of a crazy person! God is CRAZY!!!

 

I would never dream of building a robot where I put in the possibility for it to make it's own choices and when I disagree with its choice I put it under some robot-torture for the rest of my life. It is how a person with serious mental issues would act. You're describing a Devil! That's what the Devil would do (if he existed).

 

There are children of God and there are children of Satan.

Wrong.

 

It is not impossible to obey God.

Do you stone your unruly kids? It is the law of God. So do you?

 

And the Lord Jesus said If you love me keep my commandments.

So do you stone your unruly kids? Do you love him that much?

 

It is not the fault of God if somebody is thrown to hell.

Of course not. It wasn't God's fault that he created man with a free will, and it wasn't God's fault that he created Satan who rebelled. And it sure wasn't God's fault that he created Hell.

 

God suffers from MPD.

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Hello all,

 

First post so it may as be a controversal one, right? I am another Christian who believes in the fair and loving God that Jesus came to reveal as Father. I do not believe in the picture of God that was adopted from the Greeks and the Romans who created an eternal torture chamber for His disobedient children. Their God's were based on imperfect humanity and were vengeful and cruel.

 

So to sum up. God = Yes..................Hell = No

 

Kratos

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God is the Potter and we are the clay.

 

I believe in the potter / clay thing too.

 

Except it's human beings who are the potter. And God is the clay.

 

He came into existence in the minds of men. And he is molded on a daily basis in a billion different ways to be what anyone wants him to be. And the bible is a wonderful book to find support for whatever god fits the bill.

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