The Doctrine Of Hell

[Mythra]

Hi Kratos. Welcome to ex-c.

 

Nice to see you have enough sense to know that hell is nonsense.

 

We'll have to work with you on the rest.

 

[Ouroboros]

Well, some of the idea of Hell as a place of cleansing and punishment through fire comes from Zoroastrianism which is an older religion, maybe even older than Judaism.

 

Here's a thought I had about Hell and the furnace of fire it's supposed to have to punish the unbelievers.

 

When a person is burning, he'll survive just for a minute or two before he suffocates on the flames or just go into a shock and later die. God have to resurrect him in the same body, but will that body feel pain when all the nerve endings are burnet away? Or does God give the person a new body that will then burn and he'll die again? How long will it take for 10 Billion people to burn and get a new body every 5 minutes before the pile has built up to such hight that it reaches Heaven? Could it be that everyone eventually will get to Heaven since Hell will slowly pile up of dead bodies and ash?

 

Another alternative is that God keeps the victims alive in Hell to feel the torture. Meaning, he has to intentionally and willingly keep them alive to feel the pain. Is that a loving God?

 

Yet another explanation exists, it could be that the whole "Hell" story is allegorical and not to be intended to be taken literally, and when we're in a completely new ball park of discussion, where most literalists, fundamentalists and extremeists feel completely lost.

 

To Hell with Hell

[crazy-tiger]

Hello all,

 

First post so it may as be a controversal one, right? I am another Christian who believes in the fair and loving God that Jesus came to reveal as Father. I do not believe in the picture of God that was adopted from the Greeks and the Romans who created an eternal torture chamber for His disobedient children. Their God's were based on imperfect humanity and were vengeful and cruel.

You haven't read the Old Testament, have you?

 

 

Frankly, Ol' Yahweh makes the Greek and Roman Gods look pathetic on the cruel and vengeful front.

So to sum up. God = Yes..................Hell = No

 

Kratos

Let me guess... you believe in the sweet and innocent happy Gramps type Yahweh? Sorry, but he never existed... just the evil, cruel, vengeful, capricious, dispicable, unholy monster of the OT.

 

 

 

Sucks, doesn't it?

[Jun]

I am another Christian who believes in the fair and loving God that Jesus came to reveal as Father.

 

Fair? What's fair about a "God" that destroys everything because he can no longer control it? I'm referring of course to the supposed 40 days and nights of floods, where your "God" destroys everything for being the very things he created in the first place. You believe that your "God" is omnipotent, can see the future right? Then why did he need to send a flood to wipe out everything that was misbehaving? Surley he saw that coming? And still on that point, if it was man that was misbehaving - not bowing down to "Him" and what-not - why destroy EVERY LIVING THING? If "God" is omnipotent he could just snap his fingures and all of mankind would be dead, everything else would still be here to continue on. He could then start again and correct his obvious mistake. Hang on, it was a mistake it seems. "God" made a mistake! So, if "God' makes mistakes, how can he be omnipotent? Perhaps he's just a lesser "God?" Perhaps not a "God" at all?

 

Loving? Yep, he shows so much "love" that he allows disease, malformations, birth defects, viruses,.................hang on. If man is created in the likeness of "God," then why does man's genes sometimes play-up to create malformaties? Or birth defects? I guess he buggered it up again! He didn't get it right 'cause there are still problems.

 

Sorry to say that the more one looks around at nature and all that is in existence - there doesn't seem to be anything that points to creation by an intelligent being. Rather it appears that nature and all in existence is here by chance, by clever evolution. If an "intelligent being" or "God" is responsible for creating all around us, then he isn't perfect, isn't omnipotent, and certainly isn't in control.

[Kratos]

Thank you for the welcomes despite the anger that comes with it.

 

You all just prove what I have been saying for years that the God that religious Christianity teaches is no one that is to be desired. This is the whole reason that Jesus was sent was to reveal the Father to those who could not understand Him to be anything but angry and vengeful. Jesus said that if you had seen Him then you know the Father and if you know how a good father here on earth would act then you can rightly understand the Father.

 

Anyone remember Jesus killing anyone or making anyone sick? No, He healed the sick and raised the dead.

 

So, you all can take Hell and the Lake of Fire and the flood parable as literal happenings as those who do not know God do and it will be easy to continue to hate Him and those who believe in Him. Or you can try to know Him as He is as revealed by the Son. Your choice.

 

Kratos

[Ouroboros]

So, you all can take Hell and the Lake of Fire and the flood parable as literal happenings as those who do not know God do and it will be easy to continue to hate Him and those who believe in Him. Or you can try to know Him as He is as revealed by the Son. Your choice.

I picked the third option, to realize that we don't know, and belief is just a belief and not knowledge. What I do know is that I exist, and the world exist, but if there is a God or not is beyond our ability to know, and after losing my belief, then why forcing myself to believe something I don't believe? I can't make myself believe Santa Claus exist, so I can't make myself believe God exist either. They're on the same playing field in my mind.

[Jun]

Thank you for the welcomes despite the anger that comes with it.

 

Reading back, I can't see any anger.

 

Anyone remember Jesus killing anyone or making anyone sick? No, He healed the sick and raised the dead.

 

And you know this how? Can you offer any evidence that these miracles occured besides your "holy book?" No. So it never happened. As far as I'm concerned "Jesus" never existed. All that we read of "Jesus" was attributed to earlier miracle workers and prophets in other Pagan religions and adopted into your bible as the works of this "Jesus." Because an ancient book says something happened doesn't mean it did or else we would have to all believe in the writings contained in the Rig Vida, Koran, Kojiki, Bhagavad Gita..........etc.

[Astreja]

It is not the fault of God if somebody is thrown to hell.

If Hell exists... Yes, it is indeed the fault of your god. Whoever wields the power also has the responsibility. As your god supposedly has infinite power, it has infinite responsibility. It should send itself to hell... Or send no one.

[Jun]

So, you all can take Hell and the Lake of Fire and the flood parable as literal happenings

 

Ah, so you are saying that these things aren't real or didn't happen and are just parables? Just stories? So the virgin birth then is just a story? And the Burning bush? And the ten commandments given to Moses? All are just stories?

 

So how does one know which stories of your "holy book" represent actual happenings, and which are parables?

 

..........it will be easy to continue to hate Him...........

 

We don't "hate" "God." That is the same as saying we "hate" the tooth fairy! "God" doesn't exist, it's all in your imagination. One can't "hate" something which is imaginary. You have created "God" to solve the probelms that you are too weak to solve yourself. The things that you assume are out of your control you assign to "God."

[Kratos]

You must think that I am both very old and very powerful if you think that I created God. I am only 52 years old so how do you explain all those that believed in God before me? You are not making sense, but why would that matter? Your belief that there is no God is something that you believe by faith since it cannot be proven and faith without proof like yours is illogical.

 

Kratos

[Ouroboros]

You must think that I am both very old and very powerful if you think that I created God. I am only 52 years old so how do you explain all those that believed in God before me? You are not making sense, but why would that matter? Your belief that there is no God is something that you believe by faith since it cannot be proven and faith without proof like yours is illogical.

 

Kratos

You only can understand religion, faith and the concept of God through words. Words are created and defined by man. So hence God is defined by man. You create your image of God, and your image of God is not the same as your neighbors. We all have our favorite version of God.

 

Belief in God requires no proof. Belief in God requires only belief in the God you believe in. You don't obey 100% of the commandments in the Bible. You don't understand 100% of what the Bible says. And you probably don't agree 100% to all what your pastor teaches. And yet you call yourself a 100% Christians. How can that be?

[Jun]

You must think that I am both very old and very powerful if you think that I created God.

 

You are creating "God" through your belief that he exists, just as Muslims and Hindus create their gods throught their belief that they exist.

 

.........how do you explain all those that believed in God before me?

 

How do you explain all those who believed in Zeus centuries before your "God" was written about? Or the few million or so who believe that Brahma is the ONLY real "God." It's called delusion. An idealistic religion based upon man's need for something supernatural to explain that which he can't bring himself to understand or accept.

 

And belief in a supernatural man in the sky is logical?

[Kratos]

Han,

A Christian is one who has made Jesus their Lord. I am a Christian because I belong to Christ. This is what I have chosen to do. It has nothing to do with understanding 100% of the Bible or obeying 100% of the commandments. I can be the stupidest and the least obedient servant on earth, but does that make me less of a servant? As far as what another man believes, whether pastor or not, it is irrelevant. My faith is my own.

 

Jun,

I stated that I belive in God. You said that there is no God. So, mine is a belief which does not have to be proven as it is just my belief, but you state as a fact that there is no God and a fact must be proven or it is no fact. So, you are the illogical one, not me.

 

Kratos

[Robbobrob]

Jun,

I stated that I belive in God. You said that there is no God. So, mine is a belief which does not have to be proven as it is just my belief, but you state as a fact that there is no God and a fact must be proven or it is no fact. So, you are the illogical one, not me.

 

Kratos

So, if Jun changes his terminology from fact to belief, then that will make him more logical? You state there is God. Jun states there is no God. The proof is on you, not Jun. Can't prove a negative. So, it is up to you to either prove the positive, or admit that either of you could be right. Or stay in your illogical thought process.

[crazy-tiger]

Thank you for the welcomes despite the anger that comes with it.

Where? No anger around, unless you want to pretend it's there...

You all just prove what I have been saying for years that the God that religious Christianity teaches is no one that is to be desired.

No kidding... but it's the same God as in the OT.

This is the whole reason that Jesus was sent was to reveal the Father to those who could not understand Him to be anything but angry and vengeful.

You really haven't read the OT, have you?

Jesus said that if you had seen Him then you know the Father and if you know how a good father here on earth would act then you can rightly understand the Father.

Point me to any father who would curse all of creation because 2 people disobeyed him ONCE! Point me to any father who would commit mass genocide because his offspring haven't turned out the way he wanted them to. Point me to any father who would control the minds of some of his offspring, making them disobey him, simply so he can punish them for disobeying him even though he WANTS them to disobey him.

 

You really have no idea what you're talking about.

Anyone remember Jesus killing anyone or making anyone sick? No, He healed the sick and raised the dead.

Isn't Jesus God in Human form? Then see above for Jesus killing people.

So, you all can take Hell and the Lake of Fire and the flood parable as literal happenings as those who do not know God do and it will be easy to continue to hate Him and those who believe in Him. Or you can try to know Him as He is as revealed by the Son. Your choice.

 

Kratos

Just make sure you're reading the Bible the right way... because I can guarantee you're not.

[Ouroboros]

Han,

A Christian is one who has made Jesus their Lord. I am a Christian because I belong to Christ. This is what I have chosen to do. It has nothing to do with understanding 100% of the Bible or obeying 100% of the commandments. I can be the stupidest and the least obedient servant on earth, but does that make me less of a servant? As far as what another man believes, whether pastor or not, it is irrelevant. My faith is my own.

Then your view of God is your own. God is defined and have the character of your opinion, your view, your thoughts, your reasoning, your ideas... and you think you're saved based on what you think is required for you to be saved. Do you notice all the "you"-s in there?

 

The view of God is a personal thing, and the question is, if God has 5 billion faces or there are 5 billion gods?

 

You create God after YOUR image.

 

--

 

Is God omnipotent? Not all religious people believe that.

 

Is God omniscient? Not all religious people believe that.

 

Is God omnipresent? Not all ... etc

 

Is God... and so on

 

So if there isn't a one single consensus to God's character, how can you know you're right about your opinion?

[Guest end3]

Sorry for not reading all the posts of this thread, but is hell not just a "place" of secondary purification.

[sojourner]

Sorry for not reading all the posts of this thread, but is hell not just a "place" of secondary purification.

 

Hi end3 nice to meet ya

 

which hell? The bibles have translated a whole mess of words as hell then they came along and created eternal punishment in this hell so everytime someone reads hell they would insert in their minds - the place of eternal torment.

 

there are several words that got translated as hell - the one used most if i recall correctly simply means grave, unseen, veiled

another means - the place a place where the angels that sinned are bound

gehenna was the city dump

 

Tentmaker.org has a great page on what the hell is hell and alot of great info on how the bible translators mucked things up to promote a doctrine that could be used to control the masses with fear.

 

Universalists are split on the topic of whether there is a place of correction after this life, many believe there is and that the lake of fire is none other than God Himself and His messengers that He has made flames of fire, having already been changed and consumed.

 

Others believe that one is simply freed at death from everything that was blinding them to Gods great love and they are whole at death.

 

and of course, there are more views between all that.......you may already know all this since I dont know you yet but wasnt sure if that is what you were asking or were you simply commenting on what you believe? not sure

 

sojourner

[Vigile]

Sorry for not reading all the posts of this thread, but is hell not just a "place" of secondary purification.

 

Yes, we know, it's the bad, bad place in the fairy tale you believe.

 

Now good night little lamb. Baby Jesus is gonna keep you safe while you sleep.

[Guest end3]

Hello soj,

Nice to meet you as well.

I have not studied hell much, but a casual look at it suggests the fire of God, which would be similar to the different harvests... barley, wheat....firstfruits, stubborn fruits, called out fruits? Thanks

[Ouroboros]

Sorry for not reading all the posts of this thread, but is hell not just a "place" of secondary purification.

Ah, so it's a place of fire? What kind of fire? Real, physical, painful fire, like the fire that burns flesh to a crisp in a few minutes? Where do the people get their bodies from when they're dead? Will God create a body for them so they can feel the pain and when they're burn to ash he recreates them again so they can feel more pain and do so every 10 minutes for eternity? Is that your "loving" God you believe in?

[Guest end3]

alright Hans,

If it is a decision, then why would I not accept the consequences of my decision? Two, I can't answer for the mechanism...see Moses glowing face

[Grandpa Harley]

It's an especially poor doctrine since Jews have no version of it... and it's not a supportable idea in Aramaic (one of my favourite game over facts)

[Guest end3]

Gotta go guys, pick a thread and I will return. thanks

[Ouroboros]

alright Hans,

If it is a decision, then why would I not accept the consequences of my decision? Two, I can't answer for the mechanism...see Moses glowing face

Because a correct decision requires a full investigation and thorought thought before you make that decision. You don't want to make it based on feelings only do you? So, right now I'm in the spot where you can convince me that God, Heaven and Hell and Jesus exists, and so far, all these Christians coming to this website have not given a good proof to God's or Hell's existence.

 

You want a decision to be informed, isn't that right? Do you just pick a political party based on which hairdo they have, or is it based on what they say? Do you look into it and learn about it first? So far I think we know more about Christianity than you do, and yet you think we're uninformed?

 

So the decision isn't made yet. My decision is that I'm uninformed and undecided until more facts are given. I don't know if God exist, but I don't believe he exists. My decision has to be made from what I know and not what I feel or believe. So what do I know about God's existence? Nothing. I don't know if he exist or not. I don't believe that he does, but I don't know either. So if you want me to make that important decision, then you have to ask your God to prove to me beyond any reasonable doubt that he exists, and he hasn't yet... many years later after I asked him to.

 

Basically you want me to make a decision based on what YOU feel, and not one what I know or don't know. That's the plot of the scam, isn't it. Just to believe because you believe, and nothing beyond that.

 

End3, I'm gonna give you a decision that is very important for your eternal life. Blarg is the God of the Underworld, and he will only spare you pain and eternal suffering if you accept his free gift of Szlyxt. If you don't accept Szlyxt you will be toasted in the largest pizza oven ever in existence. And he's righteous in doing so, because you are the one deciding to go to the oven and refuse to accept his free gift. Glory to Blarg. Amen.