Jun Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Jun,I stated that I belive in God. You said that there is no God. So, mine is a belief which does not have to be proven as it is just my belief, but you state as a fact that there is no God and a fact must be proven or it is no fact. So, you are the illogical one, not me. Ha ha. Christians like to play this game, makes them feel secure in their empty "faith." The overwhelming evidence points to there being no such thing as "God." Well, you can't prove that leprechauns don't exist, so the "fact" is that they do! It is easy to prove to yourself that God is imaginary. The evidence is all around you. Here are 50 simple proofs: Try praying Statistically analyze prayer Look at all historical gods Think about science Read the Bible Ponder God's plan Understand religious delusion Think about Near Death Experiences Understand ambiguity Watch the offering plate Notice that there is no scientific evidence See the magic Take a look at slavery Examine Jesus' miracles Examine Jesus' resurrection Contemplate the contradictions Think about Leprechauns Imagine heaven Notice that you ignore Jesus Notice your church Understand Jesus' core message Count all the people God wants to murder Listen to the Doxology Ask why religion causes so many problems Understand evolution and abiogenesis Notice that the Bible's author is not "all-knowing" Think about life after death Notice how many gods you reject Think about communion Examine God's sexism Understand that religion is superstition Talk to a theologian Contemplate the crucifixion Examine your health insurance policy Notice Jesus' myopia Realize that God is impossible Think about DNA Contemplate the divorce rate among Christians Realize that Jesus was a jerk Understand Christian motivations Flip a coin Listen when "God talks" Realize that a "hidden God" is impossible Consider Noah's Ark Ponder Pascal's Wager Contemplate Creation Compare prayer to a lucky horseshoe Look at who speaks for God Ask Jesus to appear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kratos Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 None of this proves that God does not exist. It is like me saying that I know that Australia does not exist. How do I know this? Because I have never been there or seen it with my own eyes. But, what about all the people who say that they have seen it and can testify that it exists? What about all of the books written about Australia? Doesn't matter because I have not seen it or experienced it because I am the only measure of truth that I trust. I cannot prove God exists by my experiences and you cannot prove that He does not exist by your lack of experiences, right? My experiences prove His existence to me because they are my experiences, but that means nothing to you. Though your lack of these experiences do nothing to disprove the validity of mine, they are enough for you to "know" there is no God. So, you go ahead and feel validated in your unbelief of God and I will continue to know there is no Australia. So what is the point? Kratos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolution_beyond Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 None of this proves that God does not exist. It is like me saying that I know that Australia does not exist. How do I know this? Because I have never been there or seen it with my own eyes. But, what about all the people who say that they have seen it and can testify that it exists? What about all of the books written about Australia? Doesn't matter because I have not seen it or experienced it because I am the only measure of truth that I trust. I cannot prove God exists by my experiences and you cannot prove that He does not exist by your lack of experiences, right? My experiences prove His existence to me because they are my experiences, but that means nothing to you. Though your lack of these experiences do nothing to disprove the validity of mine, they are enough for you to "know" there is no God. So, you go ahead and feel validated in your unbelief of God and I will continue to know there is no Australia. So what is the point? Kratos You are assuming that none of us here have ever had any spiritual experiences of any kind. Well, my friend - I have had plenty of experiences of God. I had a very close relationship with him. I took time to try and figure out exactly who or what this person was - and because he seemed to be so different from the religions that chose to speak in his name, I rejected the religions and carried on walking with and talking to this God I had discovered. And I trusted God. My searching had revealed to me what God was really like - and how he was different to what the church preached. So I carried on questioning and seeking because that had always got me closer to my God. Now I am an atheist - that is where my questioning and seeking took me. And now I know that some 'experiences' are not what they seem. Some experiences come from your own ideals, your own ethics and your own yearning for connection with the Universe. All those things are valid - the ideals, the higher sense of ethics than what humans tell you, the yearning for a sense of connection with the Universe. All those things are still very important to me. But now I know that they come from me and not from any outside source. Now I know that my experiences were not from God after all - but from my own feelings and reasonings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 So what is the point? What is the point of what? You mean, what is the point that you have a million Christian forums out there and all talk about how wonderful their delusion is and how better it is compared to someone else's delusion? But then you get your curly hair in a twist because there's a website for Ex-Christians to gather and rant about their experience and thoughts about life and religion? Do you propose that this website is invalide because there's no point in talking about these things, because no one can prove anything, and hence we shouldn't exist... but yet you think that all the other Christian websites have a validity to exist in the light of the same argument? Or is it something that I miss here? Are you that kind of bigot that claims that you have more rights than everyone else? Are you? What is the point of you coming here? There's something missing here... this topic was about the validity of the Christian theology about Hell, and not God's existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kratos Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 I never said nor do I believe that your forum is not valid or should not exist. I came on this thread to state that I do believe in God, but not in Hell as it is taught in Christianity today. I was then accused of being the one who created the existence of God which I have denied. I see a point in discussing the non-existence of Hell as I do so on most of the Christian forums unless I get banned. In fact, I find that the myth of Hell and a God who created an eternal torture chamber for His disobedient and unbelieving children as the greatest hinderance to the furthering of His Kingdom that the enemy has ever contrived. I just find being asked to prove that God exists is futile. If you know Him, then you know He is real. And, if you do not, then you cannot know He is real. Kratos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 Kratos, I'm glad to hear that you don't support the view of Hell. That's a great step forward, since it just doesn't add up with all the different properties God is supposed to have. During my process from full blown radical extremist and fundamentalist to full grown pragmatheist, I had a phase (though short one) where I came to the conclusion that Hell just couldn't be true. I could somewhat understand the view that really, really evil and bad people would go to Hell, but I just couldn't imagine that some native aborginial in Austrialia 500 years ago will go to Hell just because he didn't know about Jesus. I understood that God must have a greater plan than to allow people be tortured for eternity based on God's failure to deliver his message in time to everyone. If God fails, why should humans be punished? If you believe because you feel so, I have no argument. Your feelings are just your feelings and that's it. I can tell that at least you have realized the futility of proving either way and that's a mature view of faith. Question for you about something I don't understand: what constitutes a "Christian" if you're not saved from an eternal punishment? Is it just that you believe Jesus died and was resurrected, but for what purpose was he if not to save you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kratos Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 I believe that Christ came to save all. A Christian is one who already knows and accepts this. IMO. Eventually, according to the Bible and my beliefs God will include all of mankind in Christ and God will be all in all. Eventually, again according to the Bible and my beliefs, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God. So, all will be Christian, I suppose, but the meaning of the word will no longer be associated with man-made religion as it is today. The difference between my beliefs and those of orthodox Christianity is I believe when the Bible says that He came to be the Savior of all men that He meant just that and no one will be excluded. In order for this to happen, salvation must be available after death in this life and I believe that it is. I do not believe that God will force anyone to serve Him against their free will nor do I believe that He expects anyone to serve who they have not known or believed in. In an age to come, He will reveal Himself to all and they will bow willingly when they see Him as He is. Paul described himself as a man born out of season and an example of how God will save to the uttermost. He was as against Christianity as you could get on his way to kill Christians when Jesus appeared to him and he came up off the ground calling Jesus Lord and willing to serve him. This is how I think it will be when He reveals Himself to all. Even the hardest heart will melt when He is clearly seen. I hope this is clear and sorry for the bad original start. Kratos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 None of this proves that God does not exist. It is like me saying that I know that Australia does not exist. How do I know this? Because I have never been there or seen it with my own eyes. But, what about all the people who say that they have seen it and can testify that it exists? What about all of the books written about Australia? Doesn't matter because I have not seen it or experienced it because I am the only measure of truth that I trust.So you won't believe unless you see it with your own eyes? Sounds about right, even though there's an error in your argument...I cannot prove God exists by my experiences and you cannot prove that He does not exist by your lack of experiences, right? My experiences prove His existence to me because they are my experiences, but that means nothing to you. Though your lack of these experiences do nothing to disprove the validity of mine, they are enough for you to "know" there is no God. So, you go ahead and feel validated in your unbelief of God and I will continue to know there is no Australia. So what is the point? Kratos And the error? You can verify the existence of Australia for yourself, without having to rely on subjective experiences. You can travel to where people say Australia is, you can see, feel, smell, hear and taste firsthand the fact there's land there, you can talk to the people living there, you can experience for yourself the fact that there is land there that people call Australia... Can you do that with God? Can you travel to where people say he is? Can you see, feel, smell, hear, taste him... firsthand? Can you talk to the people who live with him? If not, then you're holding God to a much lower standard of proof than anything else. Meanwhile, I CAN prove that the God you are talking about doesn't exist... Read the OT, take in all the crap God does. Understand that it's YOUR God doing all that. Read the NT, take in all the stuff they blame on Satan. Understand that your God has done much much worse. Understand also that Satan, throughout the Bible, is doing only what God wants him to. Take in the fact that this loving God you have is the opposite of the God from the Bible, the Christian God. That loving God you believe in? He doesn't exist... Only the evil, cruel, capricious, vengeful, jealous, angry monster of the Bible is there, and that's how I can prove your God doesn't exist. I just find being asked to prove that God exists is futile. If you know Him, then you know He is real. And, if you do not, then you cannot know He is real.Read the URL for this site... read the lovely banner at the top of every page on this forum... Done that? Good... We've been there, we knew him, we knew he was real... and then we came to the realisation that he's not real at all. He's like Santa Claus... something to scare people into behaving, to scare them into doing what they're told. We knew him... and that's how we know he isn't real at all. *waits for the "but you didn't really know him" excuse... like anyone can ever know what was happening in our minds* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 Paul described himself as a man born out of season and an example of how God will save to the uttermost. He was as against Christianity as you could get on his way to kill Christians when Jesus appeared to him and he came up off the ground calling Jesus Lord and willing to serve him. This is how I think it will be when He reveals Himself to all. Even the hardest heart will melt when He is clearly seen. And Paul is the person who came up with some of the most divisive, appaling garbage in the Bible... Pauls heart didn't melt, he was still an evil-minded bastard who rewrote the entire NT so that it conformed to his wishes, not Jesus. You did know that, didn't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 I hope this is clear and sorry for the bad original start. Thanks for the clarification. It was edifying. And apology accepted. Just know that this crowd is a rought/tough/hard-nosed crowd. We don't budge easy and we go full force when in conflict. Don't expect mercy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 thats good to know, then maybe I am just being sensitive sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 Kratos, IF there is no Hell, who and what is the 'enemy'? Where did this 'enemy' come from? Also... if there is no Hell, then what purpose 'salvation'? What are we being saved from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kratos Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 Kratos, IF there is no Hell, who and what is the 'enemy'? Where did this 'enemy' come from? Also... if there is no Hell, then what purpose 'salvation'? What are we being saved from? Obviously there are many different views out there so I can only give my own. Satan (which literally means "adversary") is the enemy of man. He is a created being like all others and was created for this purpose in mind. He is not opposite and co-equal to God. Nor is he God's enemy that surprised Him through an attempted coup. Jesus said that Satan was a murderer and a liar from the beginning. We are being saved from where we have fallen into carnality. God created man with the intention of us becoming in His image and His likeness. But, man was created innocent and unaware of good and evil. This is obviously not in the image of God as He surely understands the depths of both good and evil. So, unlike the way orthodox Christianity teaches it, the fall and man becoming mortal and subject to death was a part of the process of our coming to maturity and becoming like God. Satan and evil and sickness and death and pain etc. are just God's weight machines in this cosmic gym we call life. God desires us to grow up strong and good and spiritual. But to do so, we have to learn about and overcome weakness and evil and carnality. To use a natural example, if a person is bedridden or in a coma, their natural muscles will quickly atrophy and become useless. On the other hand, if a coach or a father wants to help a young athlete to become strong and a champion, they must bring them to sources of resistence and encourage them to push against pressure and they will grow stronger. God provided Satan and demons and sickness and pain to be overcome by faith as we learn to live by our spirits and the strength of the Kingdom of God within. They are not "of God" in the sense of needing to be accepted, but they are of God in the sense of having been provided to overcome and to grow stronger in the process. As always, this is only meant as the truth that I understand today. It is not meant to be the absolute truth or anyone else's truth. Just what I believe today on my journey out of darkness and into the light. Kratos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jun Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 None of this proves that God does not exist. It is like me saying that I know that Australia does not exist. How do I know this? Because I have never been there or seen it with my own eyes. But, what about all the people who say that they have seen it and can testify that it exists? What about all of the books written about Australia? Doesn't matter because I have not seen it or experienced it because I am the only measure of truth that I trust. I cannot prove God exists by my experiences and you cannot prove that He does not exist by your lack of experiences, right? My experiences prove His existence to me because they are my experiences, but that means nothing to you. Though your lack of these experiences do nothing to disprove the validity of mine, they are enough for you to "know" there is no God. So, you go ahead and feel validated in your unbelief of God and I will continue to know there is no Australia. So what is the point? Kratos CrazyTiger has summed up all I could say in response to your delusions. Belief in something which, to all attempts at locating it and proving it, cannot be proven is to me pretty illogical. I ask, do you believe in Zeus? Or Hercules? Or dragons? Or talking snakes? Talking donkeys perhaps? These are all mythical creatures and beings created by various people from different cultures and religions throughout history. Why do you choose to believe your fictional characters over those of other cultures and religions? What makes you so sure that Zeus or Apollo or Izanagi or the Flying Spaghetti Monster aren't the real supernatural creators of the univers? Where is your logiacl sense of enquiry? Where is your testing and trying to understand why there are so many other beliefs and religions and ideas? Why don't you have an open mind? When new discoveries in science and history, archeology are made what do you do? Do you say, "Oh that doesn't fit with the teachings about my "God" and his religion, so it's not true?" If you know Him, then you know He is real. And, if you do not, then you cannot know He is real. That is the same as me saying that I know fairies exist, because well........I know. You have convinced yourself without any evidence, without any reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 As always, this is only meant as the truth that I understand today. It is not meant to be the absolute truth or anyone else's truth. Just what I believe today on my journey out of darkness and into the light. ... that's a very strong statement from a Christian... allow me to be impressed for a moment... ... moment over... Maybe we do have an opening to be able to converse about things after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jun Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 Satan (which literally means "adversary") is the enemy of man. He is a created being like all others and was created for this purpose in mind. He is not opposite and co-equal to God. Nor is he God's enemy that surprised Him through an attempted coup. Jesus said that Satan was a murderer and a liar from the beginning. Ha ha ha ha ha ha hahahahahaha! Ah, but is he a Sith Lord? Does he wield a lightsabre? I bet in a duel he couldn't beat Darth Vader! Hail Satan! Hail Satan! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 So...God created evil as a test. This begins to sound like we're God's lab rats, and Kratos is painting over the ugly bits with the 'salvation' malarky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jun Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 Yes but a test for what? To see how well humans will do against the temptation of evil? And if they fail he can then toss the losers into hell? This whole religion sounds so preposterous. It makes me ashamed to admit that I once was so stupid to have believed so hard in this fantasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jubilant Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 Obviously there are many different views out there so I can only give my own. Satan (which literally means "adversary") is the enemy of man. He is a created being like all others and was created for this purpose in mind. He is not opposite and co-equal to God. Nor is he God's enemy that surprised Him through an attempted coup. Jesus said that Satan was a murderer and a liar from the beginning. Can you show us biblically, where Satan lied and murdered? Because in the Bible, it would appear that God is the liar and murderer...not to mention, jealous, vengeful, impatient, etc. God created man with the intention of us becoming in His image and His likeness. So he created us to be jealous, vengeful, impatient, boastful, self-worshipped, murderers, liars, cheaters, etc.? Can you show us biblically, where, outside of the whole sweet Jesus story (which I find appalling and disgusting and sick), that God exhibited traits of PURE and TRUE love? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jun Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 Can you show us biblically, where Satan lied and murdered? Because in the Bible, it would appear that God is the liar and murderer...not to mention, jealous, vengeful, impatient, etc. Hear hear! An extremely good point. All of the torture, warfare, destruction etc in the bible is attributed to "God's" wrath. No where does Satan cause any harm or death. And Jesus said, "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." And, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. Satan it seems is pretty quiet, unassuming and peaceful. Hail Satan! Hail Satan! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 Thats where the different thought processes really come into play to me In my view man is twofold carnal or the old man and spiritual or the new man so yes in those verses Jesus is dividing between the old and new and there will be no peace to the old but he also said, my peace I give to you not as the world gives......that is the newmans peace...the spiritual man to me the entire bible is written on an allegorical level about these inner kingdoms and men the old , the new the dead, the living the carnal, the spiritual all die in adam, all made alive in Christ the letter of the word, the spirit of the word the law, the spiritual law anyways, that is what that is about to me in my current understanding sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jun Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 The idea of suffering after death is found among the pagan religious teachings of ancient peoples in Babylon, Egypt and India which predate your Christian rubbish by centuries. Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs depicted the "nether world . . . as a place full of horrors, . . . presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness." Sound familiar? As for the word "hell." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, unabridged, under "hell" says: from old English; helan to conceal. The word "hell" thus originally conveyed no thought of heat or torment but simply of a 'covered over or concealed place.' In the old English dialect the expression "helling potatoes" meant, not to roast them, but simply to place the potatoes in the ground or in a cellar. As for the term gehenna, which appears 12 times in the Greek bible, it is from the valley of Hinnom where the disposal of dead bodies was carried out. This was a vile place littered with the remains of burned and chared bodies. Look it up, here - http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_origins_o...e_word_hell.htm And here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna Notice how Christianity and their "holy book" is falling apart, the number of faithful believers slowly dwindling under scholarly research and scientific discovery? One only need to investigate the older religions to see that Christianity is no more than a copy of earlier beliefs from several sources all thrown together in one book. The reason I believe why there are so many inconsistencies. Hail Satan! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 Can you show us biblically, where Satan lied and murdered? Because in the Bible, it would appear that God is the liar and murderer...not to mention, jealous, vengeful, impatient, etc. Hear hear! An extremely good point. All of the torture, warfare, destruction etc in the bible is attributed to "God's" wrath. No where does Satan cause any harm or death. It makes me think that Christians are the liars about Satan. Maybe the whole truth is reversed? Satan is the good guy and Yahweh is the murdering and lying bastard, and we have 2 billion Christians today and whole countries that enforce the Christian faith. It must be quite hard to be a Satanist in this world... what was that phrase again? Jesus said something about the camel through the eye of a needle, and to follow him was a narrow path... what could be harder today than to follow Satan? It's a piece of cake to become a Christian, heck it opens up a career in the political world and it gives you a chance to start tax free organizations, while Satanists are the ones persecuted. And with this evidence that Christians lie about Satans character, and obviously not even the Bible really justify or support those lies, one has to wonder... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 Paul described himself as a man born out of season and an example of how God will save to the uttermost. He was as against Christianity as you could get on his way to kill Christians when Jesus appeared to him and he came up off the ground calling Jesus Lord and willing to serve him. Okay Kratos - this is a place where we call people on shit. So I'm calling you on this. 1. Tell me where Paul personally gives an account of this event. (hint - check Galatians - but the details are all missing) 2. Tell me where Paul went directly after his conversion, and for how long. 3. Tell me whether Paul "heard a voice, but saw nothing" or whether Paul "saw a light but heard nothing" careful now - where you look in the book of Acts will determine the correct answer to this one. 4. Tell me when the book of Acts was written. Just trying to keep you on your toes, dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South2003 Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 Satan (which literally means "adversary") is the enemy of man. He is a created being like all others and was created for this purpose in mind. Oh, finally a True Christian spoke the truth! Finally, a fundie does agree that its god created evil as said in Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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