mwc Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 My father-in-law is dying in Texas now of cancer and I flew down to see him last week. He has seen many of his family members in dreams and visions including my nephew who died in my home of cancer 5 years ago. It is hard to watch. He is a Christian, but family is what matters at these times. I'm sorry to hear this. I really did not come here to convert anyone as I gave that up years ago. I just wanted to understand you all. Some of the posters here kept insisting that there are no concrete experiences that prove out Christianity as real and this is why I shared my real experiences that are beyond just belief in a holy book. You are the one who said maybe that you are not supposed to know God now and I agreed. Of course we insist in "proof." When someone stops by with various claims we want some evidence of some sort. You provided the only thing that is ever offered...subjective evidence. It was good enough for Saul in Acts. It was good enough for my grandfather and it was good enough for you...but unless you can transfer that into my head directly or get jesus to make an appearance at my house...it simply isn't good enough for me at this point. Too many people have these experiences not only with jesus but with all sorts of things...like Elvis sightings and whatnot. It's good enough for the people that see Elvis (and maybe my aunt who still loves Elvis) but not me. To claim I should somehow accept that Elvis is still alive based on your sighting is really pushing the importance of your sighting. Don't you think? A little hard evidence isn't too much to ask to accept Elvis is really alive. The same goes for jesus and should be easier for a "god." I found myself on the defensive concerning the truths that I hold dear in my life. Your beliefs are your own and none of my business. I never called any of you insane or arse holes for your beliefs. I respected them though they are admitedly not my own experiences. I don't really understand why the fact that family is important when dying proves no God or no Heaven, but I do appreciate you sharing your life. My idea of Heaven is far from orthodox, but that does not matter either. True. You never called us names. The level of of respect is debatable (I noted a level of condescension right off but perhaps that's just the way you happened to write...but it does lead to name calling on a site designed for ex-c's looking to recover from the cult in general). As to my example. It's important to note that I was a full-fledged xian when my grandfather died so I figured I would just see him "later." Of course I can no longer do that since I don't believe in that "later" aspect. The point would be that when his mind was allowed to do the thing a dying mind does best, which is protect itself, it didn't seek comfort in the thing that brought him comfort the bulk of his life which was "jesus" but the simple times on a farm with his family. Why? Why not the ultimate comfort in the universe? Where was "god?" You see pictures of "jesus" hugging the infirmed and providing the aid to the sick but not here. I could attribute the visions to "god" and say that he knew what would be best but the cold hard facts are that his mind did not look forward to heaven and "god" and "jesus" but it looked back to family. It didn't take comfort it stories from a book but in the reality that was his life. Anyway, that's why it matters. It seems what to me was defending what I believe appeared to you as trying to attack your beliefs. I acknowledged that if all I had was a belief and an old book I would probably be on your side of this issue. My "road to Damascus" experience is what it took for me to believe. That is all. I was never one to believe anything without proof and God knew that and gave me what I needed. Jesus said to Thomas that the ones who believe without seeing are the more blessed so my testimony is not one of superior Christianity, but of a hard-hearted unbeliever who would have taken his own life if Jesus had not entered my room that day. Don't forget that Thomas wasn't denied his evidence. I literally begged for anything and got nothing. To want evidence is not a crime according to the story. Read the gospels again. You'll see the twelve hung around jesus for 1 to 3 years (depending on the author). They failed to "believe" time and again and were chastised. Ultimately it took literally seeing with their own eyes for them to finally believe the whole thing (except Thomas in one version who needed to touch the holes). Think about that. The twelve revered apostles needed to SEE with their own eyes the resurrected jesus before they finally believed once and for all. His hand-picked messengers on earth who lived with him and watched him perform miracles didn't have true belief until that time... ...all I get is a book...and I may get some form of punishment if I don't believe it irregardless of textual/historical "problems." Is that fair? Is that reasonable? Is that "just?" I think I should get what the twelve got. Or even Saul. To be denied for no other reason than "god doesn't do that anymore for some reason" just doesn't seem to be a good enough explanation. My "faith" should not be any different than "Peter's" or "James'" or anyone else's and yet, apparently, the "standard" was raised shortly after "jesus" went back "home." I'm sorry if I don't agree with the policy. I don't need to be "more blessed" I just want the same deal. Not to diminish your personal experience but you saw jesus because you already knew of jesus. You say you were an unbeliever but that doesn't mean you weren't aware of the whole concept that "jesus saves" and so forth (unless you grew up under a rock or in some remote country where jesus was never preached...ever). Your mind worked hard to save you and it's a good thing it did. If this is the only way you can keep yourself alive then I guess you should keep on with it but you should seriously consider a life without jesus. Not that I want you to deconvert but simply to consider the idea that he's not keeping you alive somehow (since that's sort of how I read that...you minus jesus equals suicide). You can be a good, happy person without jesus and you can be one with jesus. That's all. These are the facts as I know them. They are not given to convice anyone else. But, I cannot lie just to fit in. No one's asking you to lie. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Well it is very new to me to be in a room full of people where most all really dislike what I believe in and is teaching me alot. I don't know if "dislike" is the right word. There is usually a very strong knee-jerk reaction to any new xians that come by. Our first impressions aren't usually the best. This place has changed me for the better in just a short time. If I went up to the folks that attend the church my husband works at and shared what Ive learned here and how its changed me they probably would be like, wow, that is awesome, till I mentioned where I learned it and by whom. Then the crap would hit the fan. I find that so sad and I intend to live my life honest, if I get the chance to share what is happening in me I will and deal with the fall out then. We've been a number of xians dirty little secrets...don't worry we won't tell. But the point is, I believe all mankind is like a garden, and Im going digging and nothing any longer is going to hold me back! For some reason the anger and such here has not had a negative effect on me and I think its because I am supposed to be here, its like Antlerman said , when you are ready it will come to you. Uh oh. Don't listen to him. Next thing you know he'll be all "Think about this" and "Ponder that." That's his game...thinking. Twisted bastard. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 You all have demonstrated throughout that you have no concern for my feelings or my thoughts, but for my conscience sake I need to clear the air. I have no expectation that any will accept this, but I need to say it. The fact that you NEED to say it to us is the reason you are getting the treatment you have. It's some kind of crazy don't you think that you feel the need to come into the house of perfect strangers and make proclamations about their lives, drag them back through the same muck they spent years escaping, and then tell them self rightously that your pearls of wisdom are being wasted on swine? And yes pumpkin, we understand how parables work. We're not offended by your metaphor, just amused by it the way an adult is amused by the silly things a toddler might say. I should have just refused to answer the question of how I know that God is real instead of just believe that He is. I should have just stayed silent instead of sharing my experiences. This was my error and no one else's fault, but my own. Why? Because your faith is so delicate that it can't stand the light of criticism being shined down on the reasons for it? I determined a long time ago that if I were to believe something then I was going to try it by fire first. If it burned up in the flames I tossed it aside like the old rag that it was. Seems to me that your faith didn't survive very well here, yet you clung to it anyway because you determined you were right before you proved you were right. No one learns anything with that kind of attitude little lamb. Remember what your 4th grade teacher told you? Never assume because you make an ASS out of U and ME? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kratos Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 MWC, I do not believe that it is unreasonable to expect proof. I mean how could I say that when this is what it took for me. I was raised Catholic so knew the whole Jesus story, but I had left as soon as my parents divorced at 12 and I was old enough to tell my mother "No, I ain't going to your church cause I don't believe". I was 28 with my .38 on the pillow and ready to check out when I just in desperation looked up and said "If you are real and care, you better do something now or I am out of here". This is when He came into the room and spoke to me. I covered my head from the light on the bed and slid onto the floor and stayed that way for hours after He left utterly terrified. Like Paul, I saw the light through my arms and heard the voice, but would not look at Him. In the 24 years I have been a Christian, I have only shared this maybe a half dozen times as it is too personal and I always hated the thought of someone mocking it. Why I share it here, I don't know. Anyway, I do not expect anyone to believe by my experience. The only reason I came here on this thread is I go everywhere I can tring to remove the damnable heresy of Eternal Torment from those who will listen. I do not believe that people will be punished for not believing what God has not proven to them. This is why I believe that the Bible clearly teaches that every knee will bow and every tongue will swear unto salvation when He reveals Himself in the age to come. No one will have a hard time believing when they clearly see. I know that as Paul knew that. I never went around killing Christians, but I was as much an unbeliever as he was when I saw and heard and bowed and confessed. This is how He saves to the uttermost. IMO I do not expect Him to do any less for anyone else. It just may not be in this life. I have no idea why He reveals to some now and to others later, I just am so glad that I now know He is no respector of persons and He will one day do for all what He did for me. You may not be able to believe now without proof, but one day He will show Himself to you and you will believe. At least, this is my belief now. LOL I have no problem believing that I could live the rest of my life if I did not believe in God. I did it for more years than I have believed. I just meant at the moment when He came to me it saved me from suicide. Kratos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 I do not believe that people will be punished for not believing what God has not proven to them. That certainly makes your beliefs much more palatable. Don't worry, none of us left the faith because we could no longer tolerate the hell doctrine. Rather we left in spite of it. It took me a while to work out my old fears of "what price will I have to pay if I'm wrong?" I now understand how that line of reasoning is invalid and I have no more residual fears of hell. Others here on working through the process or have completed the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_funkenstein Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 MWC, I do not believe that it is unreasonable to expect proof. I mean how could I say that when this is what it took for me. I was raised Catholic so knew the whole Jesus story, but I had left as soon as my parents divorced at 12 and I was old enough to tell my mother "No, I ain't going to your church cause I don't believe". I was 28 with my .38 on the pillow and ready to check out when I just in desperation looked up and said "If you are real and care, you better do something now or I am out of here". This is when He came into the room and spoke to me. I covered my head from the light on the bed and slid onto the floor and stayed that way for hours after He left utterly terrified. Like Paul, I saw the light through my arms and heard the voice, but would not look at Him. In the 24 years I have been a Christian, I have only shared this maybe a half dozen times as it is too personal and I always hated the thought of someone mocking it. Why I share it here, I don't know. The human mind is an amazing thing. Did you know for example that what you see with your eyes is not a faithful representation of the world as it appears before you? Not at all - it is a model that your brain creates based on very limited information given to it by your eyes. That's right - your brain creates your reality. It sounds like you were under quite a great deal of emotional and psychological stress at the time that you say you were ready to take your own life. Perhaps you didn't really want to die. Perhaps you really needed a reason to live. And so, you created one - one which you've lived by for the last 24 years. I don't doubt that you saw what you saw, but you must ask yourself the question. Was it really there? Just out of curiosity, were you falling asleep or just coming out of sleep at the time of your vision? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 I've been reading up on NDEs for the past few weeks, with a view to an article I'm considering for another place... One of the stand out stories to me was the narrative of a 7 year old boy who was 'dead' for 20 minutes. He had the whole 'into the light' and the long tunnel, thing, then was met by Raphael, and told to return since it wasn't his time... Thing is it wasn't Raphael, heavenly host, it was Raphael the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle... the one who uses the Sai... Now, I'm not saying the boy's vision wasn't real to him, but it does give an insight into how the human brain will create images of comfort when it's shutting down or under a lot of stress... Like HAL singing 'Daisy' as his mind was almost gone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Well Ive always thought nde's curious since culture seems to very much influence them. Also Im sure you all have noticed that all those paintings of Jesus from folks that say they have seen him never look like its the same person. I had an appearance of Jesus in a dream once and later on I was surfing the internet and ran accross a picture painted by a mormon lady of Jesus, never had seen it before but there was the man from my dream. I dont honestly believe that proves that is what he actually looks like but rather it was just another witness to what was being shared with me in my dream was a very valid and timely instruction. I do agree that the mind can do all kinds of things. I watched a hypnotist on this one show and he hypnotized this one person and then told them he was heating a quarter and it was red hot, of course he didnt, then placed it on their forearm and they screamed and it fell off while leaving a red circle on their arm. I do believe there is real experiances but I also believe that our mind is a very powerful organ that can see and cause us to believe all kinds of things. I know in art I have learned that our eyes will fill in the blanks like someone up there said. You are trained how to really see as an artist. Because as soon as you see a tree, your mind begins filling in the details so you have to train yourself to stop and really look, finding all the shades of light and dark and patterns. very interesting stuff, and I cant explain to anyone how I still believe even knowing as much as I do in opposition to my beliefs but somehow I do but I know many others have explanations for it and to them Id say the exact thing they say to me, I would have to have some kind of proof and for some reason its not convincing enough sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 For some reason the anger and such here has not had a negative effect on me and I think its because I am supposed to be here, its like Antlerman said , when you are ready it will come to you. Uh oh. Don't listen to him. Next thing you know he'll be all "Think about this" and "Ponder that." That's his game...thinking. Twisted bastard. mwc Hey! It's not all just analytic thought with me, but there is lots of that too. It's my personal holy grail to find the balance point. Working on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kratos Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Dr. Funk, I was wide awake when this happened and for the rest of the night after this happened. My life was totally changed immediately by the experience, but I am sure that there are many scientific explanations for what happened to me that will satisfy those who do not believe. I really have no problem with that as all must understand as they can. Like Sojourner said, I have not had sufficient evidence to convince me that what happened to me was not real or what continues to happen to me is not real. It still works for me and this is valid just as it stopped working for you and this is valid, too. Kratos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted October 31, 2007 Author Share Posted October 31, 2007 Dr. Funk, I was wide awake when this happened and for the rest of the night after this happened. My life was totally changed immediately by the experience, but I am sure that there are many scientific explanations for what happened to me that will satisfy those who do not believe. I really have no problem with that as all must understand as they can. Like Sojourner said, I have not had sufficient evidence to convince me that what happened to me was not real or what continues to happen to me is not real. It still works for me and this is valid just as it stopped working for you and this is valid, too. Kratos You do know, that most NDEs look *very* real to the person experiencing them right? Also, that NDEs vary greatly in content, even a child seeing a mutant teenage turtle. Some people even go to hell in an NDE (my dad did). The mind *IS* capable of playing for you a virtual reality that you *will* believe. Under extreme stress, and suicidal, it is not suprising you had some sort of vision to me. Not suprising at all. But the difference is I see what you had as a halucination, you see it as reality. When it's all said and done, halucination is the most probable and likely reason for the event. What did it "say" to you? If you don't mind sharing? I bet before you answer, it said something already on/in your mind already. Am I wrong? Think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Well Ive always thought nde's curious since culture seems to very much influence them. Also Im sure you all have noticed that all those paintings of Jesus from folks that say they have seen him never look like its the same person. Very good point. It's like a documentary I saw about UFO fans. People who claimed being abducted and taken to Mars to meet the aliens. In the same conference, one person's experience was that the aliens were dark black, while the other person's experience was that they were extremely white... You would think one of them is lying... but if one of them is right, which one would it be??? That's why it's easier for an outside (3rd person) to put belief to pause and wait for more information. I had an appearance of Jesus in a dream once and later on I was surfing the internet and ran accross a picture painted by a mormon lady of Jesus, never had seen it before but there was the man from my dream. I dont honestly believe that proves that is what he actually looks like but rather it was just another witness to what was being shared with me in my dream was a very valid and timely instruction. Was he white? Or did he look like a short, dark person with short hair? If not, then I wonder if it might have been an apparation of the devil instead... very interesting stuff, and I cant explain to anyone how I still believe even knowing as much as I do in opposition to my beliefs but somehow I do At least you're honest about it. I admire that more than being right. Lying to oneself doesn't benefit the search for truth. No one can claim to have the final answer, but also no one can claim they are looking for the truth while they intentionally keep themselves in darkness. You're doing the right thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Dr. Funk, I was wide awake when this happened and for the rest of the night after this happened. My life was totally changed immediately by the experience, but I am sure that there are many scientific explanations for what happened to me that will satisfy those who do not believe. I really have no problem with that as all must understand as they can. Like Sojourner said, I have not had sufficient evidence to convince me that what happened to me was not real or what continues to happen to me is not real. It still works for me and this is valid just as it stopped working for you and this is valid, too. Kratos finally... we can have a rational exchange of beliefs, simply because we're now on the same level with the experience being 'subjective'... whether the subjective points to some daimonic reality, or is just a symptom of living inside the flesh computer we do is a point that I've looked at with interest for many years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kratos Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Dr. Funk, I was wide awake when this happened and for the rest of the night after this happened. My life was totally changed immediately by the experience, but I am sure that there are many scientific explanations for what happened to me that will satisfy those who do not believe. I really have no problem with that as all must understand as they can. Like Sojourner said, I have not had sufficient evidence to convince me that what happened to me was not real or what continues to happen to me is not real. It still works for me and this is valid just as it stopped working for you and this is valid, too. Kratos You do know, that most NDEs look *very* real to the person experiencing them right? Also, that NDEs vary greatly in content, even a child seeing a mutant teenage turtle. Some people even go to hell in an NDE (my dad did). The mind *IS* capable of playing for you a virtual reality that you *will* believe. Under extreme stress, and suicidal, it is not suprising you had some sort of vision to me. Not suprising at all. But the difference is I see what you had as a halucination, you see it as reality. When it's all said and done, halucination is the most probable and likely reason for the event. What did it "say" to you? If you don't mind sharing? I bet before you answer, it said something already on/in your mind already. Am I wrong? Think about it. Michael, I don't mind answering your question since you are not interested in any way in my ministry or calling. I have never shared this experience from the pulpit and only to friends because I feel it would be "prostituting" the experience to use it for profit or to exalt myself in other's eyes. In this case, it is just unrelated people rationally exploring an incident with no spiritual consequences so I do not mind. What was on my heart though I did not say it out loud was that I needed a purpose or a hope to be worth living for another day. Like I said, I immediately fell on my face belly down on the bed and covered my head, but it did not seem low enough so I slid onto the floor still convering my head. Then, He said " When you are ready, I will send you to the nations to share my gospel". And, no, this was the farthest thing from my mind to expect. For one thing, I was raised Catholic so a liturgical priesthood was all I knew of ministry. The other thing was I was not a good person who just was not saved. I was a sinning sinner if you know what I mean. I had been using drugs since I was 14 and lived in LA and was a gang banger and a drug dealer. If I thought God was real, I sure did not think He would save me and I really never thought He would want me to be a minister for Him. My friends and brothers almost split a gut the next day when I said I was going to be a preacher, but it was a future and that was what I needed at the time. I did go overseas on a teaching mission the first time only a year later to South Africa, but I do not think this word has been fulfilled in my life at this time. After 24 years, I still think that I am not ready in the way that He meant. For example, I have only embraced the salvation of all for about a year and this is vital to understanding the real 'good news' or gospel. It really does feel good to get this out in the open even if some will continue to see me as a potential serial killer for the experience. Christians could never discuss this rationally without making it either a point of exaltation or one of contention. Kratos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Wow John I appreciate you sharing that, glad Im here to read it. Im not sure how long Ive known you from other forums and I dont recall ever reading that on them. There are things that logic and rational thinking can try as it might to explain away but for the one with the experiance it cannot be done. This is why to me, and your experiance is a perfect example. It is not always OUR faith that brings about experiances of God in our lives but the faith OF the Son of God within a man that rises to the surface and changes our lives. This also explains to me why folks that have turned their backs on belief still have experiances. When we are not faithful HE IS and HE doesnt deny Himself! It is not our own faith that carries us over the finish line if you will but His. Thats how Ive come to see it. And it wouldnt matter how much of an athiest one becomes that faith of the Son is still alive and kicking within and will still acknowledge the Father of the whole Creation and will still bring one back Home. This is what I believe and its a powerful belief, I know its real, because that faith has carried me beyond my own. I simply acknowledge it where as others dont. God is simply no respector of persons. We might not can explain all the ugliness in the world but every person does experiance some level of faith in their lives, Ive heard it everywhere I investigate, you can reckon it to some universal conciousness or the brains activities or whatever but that wont change what it really is and who's it is to me. I will never leave you nor forsake you He really does stick closer than a brother sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 and then the long dark night of insane gibberish descends once more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 I do not believe that it is unreasonable to expect proof. I mean how could I say that when this is what it took for me. I was raised Catholic so knew the whole Jesus story, but I had left as soon as my parents divorced at 12 and I was old enough to tell my mother "No, I ain't going to your church cause I don't believe". I was 28 with my .38 on the pillow and ready to check out when I just in desperation looked up and said "If you are real and care, you better do something now or I am out of here". This is when He came into the room and spoke to me. I covered my head from the light on the bed and slid onto the floor and stayed that way for hours after He left utterly terrified. Like Paul, I saw the light through my arms and heard the voice, but would not look at Him. In the 24 years I have been a Christian, I have only shared this maybe a half dozen times as it is too personal and I always hated the thought of someone mocking it. Why I share it here, I don't know. Anyway, I do not expect anyone to believe by my experience. I fully believe you experienced that. I've experienced something very similar. A point in my life of great crisis; an event that took me to the edge of death; a cry of desperation for help out into the utter darkness; white light suddenly appearing everywhere, in an instant driving everything else out that tormented me; a complete cessation of time; infinite peace, infinite love, infinite knowledge, infinite awareness, infinite power, infinite grace and compassion, all in only a sliver of an inconceivable infinity that lay beyond that; and then a gentle voice of infinite compassion and awareness speaking only my name, conveying my life's story before my eyes in an instant of utter timelessness with the knowledge spoken without words to my mind that I was never alone, that was loved beyond all knowledge. Shall I continue? Rising from this vision I felt all the pain of my heart come gushing out of the deepest part of my soul in a torrent of tears, being both afraid and amazed at what had just happened. Two days later, I began what began my lifelong search for understanding of this. Being raised in a Christian culture, seeking out a minister seemed the most appropriate beginning. I openly shared my experience with wonder and puzzlement in my voice, to the stolid looks of the minister who gave little response. The following day I spoke to another, this time a Catholic priest, who likewise sat with a blank stare and his offering what I learned later to be the typical Catholic response of asking if I had anything to confess. I left feeling discouraged, lost, and confused, yet with this knowledge in my heart. Suddenly, without any warning or indication, the entire Universe opened to me before my eyes, as if a great curtain opened in an instant. I suddenly saw for the first time in my life - color. The world was full of color, with vibrant greens and blues everywhere! The World was full of light and love and color, and permeated everything as a sort of living joy that surrounded me, moved through me, and began flowing out of the most unimaginably deepest part of my being out into the world in a sort of song, as can only be described as utter, living love. I saw people walking by me, and rather than feeling darkness and shame in my heart and averting my eyes away as in my past, instead I felt pure love and joy. No thoughts of darkness were in me anywhere at that moment, and I felt truly alive for the first time in my life. From this point began the life-long quest of mine that I stumbled about to build upon, again making the mistake of looking for answers from ministers. Two years later, and no further towards finding answers I happened upon a very charismatic Biblical literalist whose convictions of truth inspired me. I was caught into the snare, and found myself convinced somehow that all this was somehow God calling me to serve him in the ministry. I enrolled in Bible College and graduated top of my class with a degree in theology, all the while being ripped apart inside by the conflict of what was in my heart, and what was being portrayed about God. You can read the rest of my story I posted here two years ago if you are interested: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=6730&hl= The point is, to this day I still embrace what I experienced. I still accept it as real. I however do not believe it says anything about a particular theology about a particular God from a particular religion. I'm planning to share my thoughts on what this means to me in another thread I'm having with Ruby in the Arena forum here called, "Evidence of the Heart". So I'll save my thoughts for there, as they are going to get long - very long. (be patient as my time is limited these days for awhile) P.S. In my testimony link I included above, I skipped over the first part of what I mentioned here. I didn't feel comfortable at that time to mention it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Grandpa That is one of the most distasteful works of art Ive ever seen, good thing I dont associate Jesus with statues and paintings and such or that would have really gotten to me. sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Side bar: Grandpa Harley's take on why bad things happen to good people... God's busy OK, having expended my puerile streak, let the serious stuff recommence... Humorous, but kind of sucks seeing it following my post right before it. Possible to remove? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Wow Antlerman, I really loved reading your words. You are such a poet. The fact that you are an athiest is astounding to me but like I said above, where you see that as other than God in you, I hear it differently. And I love the fact that you are committed to people, and you actually inspire me in my own place of knowing even though you dont share the same belief. I wish we could all come to that place. What a wonderful, incredible place this would be if we committed ourselves to inspiring one another without having to box others into our particular views. I just really respect you alot! sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Wow Antlerman, I really loved reading your words. You are such a poet. The fact that you are an athiest is astounding to me but like I said above, where you see that as other than God in you, I hear it differently. And I love the fact that you are committed to people, and you actually inspire me in my own place of knowing even though you dont share the same belief. I wish we could all come to that place. What a wonderful, incredible place this would be if we committed ourselves to inspiring one another without having to box others into our particular views. I just really respect you alot! sojourner Thank you for your comments. There are reasons why I am an atheist, and its hard to really explain simply, but I'll try a little here which probably won't say much. Essentially it has to do with the balance between the rational and the aesthetic nature of all humans. I have both pretty strongly in me, and I find that the aesthetic side (perceptions and experience of beauty) is expressed in languages that go beyond the language of commerce which we all share to deal with the mundane things of life. But the aesthetic, human's response to the world, takes on many forms. One of which is mythology; stories of super humans, gods, and mythical beings are languages of what is in the heart of humans, our ideals, hopes, aspirations, etc. It goes beyond this, but to the short of it, the language of God in religion is out of place for me. Though it may have once inspired in its original cultures, it has becoming stained by the insistence of the religious on its factuality. Now my rational mind is in conflict with that particular language of myth used to express the aesthetic. You see? I feel these experiences are a part of the human experience, and there’s nothing wrong with using a language system to express that. But the language system that has the symbolism connected to the physical reality of this world, does both the language and human beings a great disservice. Rather than making modern humans free to appreciate transcendent beauty as part of their humanity, the religious are requiring a violation of the rational mind in order to use that language! To me the word “spiritual†means being whole. Being whole means fully experiencing both a rational view of the world, while appreciating its beauty with the heart. When I hear you see God in my life, coming from you I appreciate it. It's your language of expressing what you feel in your heart. When I hear it from other people who have an agenda to convert, then I hear someone with ulterior motives who judges me as lost and in darkness. I hardly consider myself lost. I am always seeking to embrace a higher existence, and if I need to dump a language system that is broken for me, the real question should be what is it in the end am I serving? Is it what you call God? Then we are of the same heart, and there should be no divisions, or judgments of others. This is why I am repulsed by the evangelist who judges by exterior labels rather than deeds of the heart. They serve their religion, not "God". Does that help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Antlerman Yes it does help. Because I care about you and not an agenda I could even not call it God in your presence if it bothered you. To me its God, to you its life without having to involve a personal God if you will and is available to all men. We agree on it being within all mankinds experiance. I think God is working in all men as the bible says He poured out His spirit on All men. I have no doubt thats true. Where as you see it as life at work in all men........Honestly Antlerman, this would get me totally hung as a heretic not only in churches but even in some universalist camps and they are much more liberal then churches. I dont have a problem or a need to change you and feel you need to be 'saved' if you will. To me God is at work in you. And I know that you see it totally different. And Im sure lots of christians reading this want to string me up right now lol thing is if I really believe what I say is alive in me, and I do, then I can rest in that knowing and not feel I have to go out and convert everyone. Although of course I want to share what is life in me just as you share what is life in you. Whether we call that life God or not Antlerman, I think we can both agree we recognize the same life within each of us. I hear you, and I know you hear me. sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Side bar: Grandpa Harley's take on why bad things happen to good people... God's busy OK, having expended my puerile streak, let the serious stuff recommence... Humorous, but kind of sucks seeing it following my post right before it. Possible to remove? No sooner said than done... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 GH, is that your ill tempered cat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 No, this is my ill-tempered cat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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