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Goodbye Jesus

Christians: Put Up Or Shut Up!


Checkmate

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Put up (provide verifiable evidence) or shut up (keep your retarded “beliefs†to yourself and leave the rest of us alone).

 

 

Do feel it necessary to provide "verifiable evidence" for everything you believe?

 

 

Ok... here is my "put up":

I have reason to believe that things exist.

I have reason to believe that all things that are, are real.

I have reason to believe that matter and energy are simply different forms of the same "reality".

I have reason to believe that neither matter nor energy can be created or destroyed, only transformed.

I have reason to believe that two substances can not occupy the same space and time.

I have reason to believe that all energy that exists has ALWAYS existed. Always. Always.

I have reason to believe all matter that exists has ALWAYS existed in either the form of matter or energy.

I have reason to believe that time and eternity are human conceptual inventions to explain our experience.

I have NO reason to believe that all energy and matter which have existed unendlessly decided to change their form and substance without any outside force applied.

I have NO reason to believe that an outside force could possible exist in this universe... all that can exist is what energy and matter have always existed.

I have reason to believe, nevertheless that SOMETHING caused a change in the infinite existence of energy to transform itself into what I have reason to believe exists, today.

 

I have reason to call the SOMETHING God.

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I have reason to believe that neither matter nor energy can be created or destroyed, only transformed.

Well, I have to disagree there. Matter can be created and destroyed. The law of conservation of mass really only apply to chemical process, while in relativity and quantum mechanics we have a completely new understanding. We do have conservation of energy, but not necessarily conservation of mass. At least that is my understanding.

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I have reason to believe that neither matter nor energy can be created or destroyed, only transformed.

Well, I have to disagree there. Matter can be created and destroyed. The law of conservation of mass really only apply to chemical process, while in relativity and quantum mechanics we have a completely new understanding. We do have conservation of energy, but not necessarily conservation of mass. At least that is my understanding.

 

I am talking about mass... I think I implied that any loss in matter is from transformation into energy.

 

All that exists in the universe is EITHER energy or matter. (Even ideas or thoughts) When something stops being matter it is because it became energy and vice versa.

Please don't get me started on quantum physics... I have as repulsive reaction to it as you do religion.

In fact, I firmly am of the opinion that QP is simply the "religion of science", with as much empirical support and evidence as Kaballa.

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I am talking about mass... I think I implied that any loss in matter is from transformation into energy.

 

All that exists in the universe is EITHER energy or matter. (Even ideas or thoughts) When something stops being matter it is because it became energy and vice versa.

Ah. You say the "sum of mass and energy is constant." Which I can agree to.

 

Please don't get me started on quantum physics... I have as repulsive reaction to it as you do religion.

In fact, I firmly am of the opinion that QP is simply the "religion of science", with as much empirical support and evidence as Kaballa.

What! That's my religion! Don't dizz my religion, bro'! ;)

 

Ok, I'll try not to bring up quantum with you.

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  • 1 month later...

Regarding evidence for God's existence or activity - especially what would be considered as 'miraculous' events - there's no doubt that miracles that supercede the laws of physics are no longer occurring. But that simple fact would only be your self-imposed limitation on how God works, and it would certainly not be evidence that God is no longer active. When He left planet Earth, Jesus commanded His disciples to take the Gospel of forgiveness of sins in HIs name "TO THE REMOTEST PART OF THE EARTH" and His promise to them was "I WILL BE WITH YOU UNTIL THE END OF THE AGE."

 

So we ask ourselves - has this truly taken place? Have the followers of Jesus Christ fulfilled this command? The answer is an obvious "YES"

 

So what?

The prime directive of Christianity is to expand and dominate all other forms of spiritual belief.

Corporate systems and political parties have the same goal, to expand and dominate.

One sees this very same agenda exhibited by political operatives such as Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and a host of others.

 

And wherever Christianity has spread, it has delivered a beneficial effect to that culture[

 

The same claim can be made for Wal-Mart and McDonald's.

These corporate powers have spread and delivered "beneficial" effects to the cultures they infiltrate.

They put out loads of corporate advertising to back up their claims, just as Christianity does.

 

As Gamaliel sadi to the Jewish Sanhedrin in Book of Acts, "Leave these men alone - or you will be found fighting against God."

 

Apparently God is also backing Wal-Mart and McDonald's, because they have spread all over the world.

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Palace Chan - the evidence for Orthodox Christianity is solid. The Gospels and Book of Acts were certainly written from eye witness accounts - as is evident when you read them. Though the release of the final written books was anywhere from 20 - 60 years later, there were still many people alive who lived through those days of Jesus Christ and His Apostles. So any attempt by fisherman from Galilee to pass off bogus history would have been readily disputed.

 

Apparently some of the official stories were disputed.

The New Testament is filled with complaints about false teachers spreading lies.

You're assuming the "history" that finally made it into the Bible is accurate because it's in the Bible, which you assume is perfectly reliable.

 

Rather, Jewish historians like Josephus and Eusebius confirmed the Biblical writers, and the amazing spread of the Gospel would have been easily diffused by simply proving their accounts to be false.

 

They may have recorded stories that they heard but they weren't eyewitnesses to Jesus.

The resurrected Jesus never appeared to the public and only appeared to cult members, so it would be difficult to establish anything from an objecive viewpoint.

 

This examination of historical fact is the reason why so many other writings were rejected by the Early Church from being placed in the Bible.

 

The canon of the Bible was voted into being by councils of high ranking male clerics, none of whom lived anywhere near the time of the alleged "history".

 

Many speak of "Lost Books of the Bible" - but there is no such thing! These books were read, examined, and rejected by the Early Church becasue they taught false doctrine, or contained bogus events, or had obvious geographical or historical errors - many of the books just had weird stories with no factual basis. SO they're not lost books - they're rejected books, and for good reason.

 

On what basis should the incredible event of dead people rising out of their graves and strolling into Jerusalem, to be seen by many, be accepted as historical fact?

 

But evidence for the resurrection goes beyong the solid Biblical record, also being based on facts known about Roman rule of its provinces, how the Roman legions operated in executions (the Jews stoned, while the Romans crucified), how Roman soldiers were put to death if they slept on their watch (can you imagine the Roman Empire NOT punishing severly any soldier sleeping on the job - is that the way to rule the world?), etc. History is solidly behind the historicity of the Bible.

 

Yet, there is no contemporary recording of a famous, miracle working god-man called "Jesus of Nazareth" outside of cult writings.

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Within Biblical Christianity, salvation is a gift from God based on the Person & work of Jesus Christ, who is Himself God Incarnate. NO amount of good works can procure salvation - we receive salvation by God's grace through Faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord & Savior.

 

The phrase "Biblical Christianity" is subjective.

Plenty of believers claim to be partakers of Biblical Christianity and have reached far different conclusions regarding doctrine.

According to the god-man in Matt 25, some good works are required for salvation.

 

Therefore, any good works we do are conducted as obedience to God's command to love our neighbors. We don't merit any portion of our salvation, but rather we act from gratitude - and seek to be merciful to others.

 

Not according to Jesus. At least some good works are required or salvation is forfeited.

 

But also, any thought that public & secular institutions have accomplished more than Christian charities "might" only be true if you're limited to very recent history in Western Europe and North America. Throughout the past 1500 years and all over Planet Earth, Christian charity has reached millions of people - from the care given during the Black Plague, to the tons of aid and care given in Indonesia after the tsunami - even after they were forced to remove Christian symbols from the packages (like the Red Cross), to the multiplied thousands helped in southern Sudan by Christian groups.

 

Charity is not automatically an indication of moral superiority.

It can be done to curry favor with a "God".

The agenda to expand and dominate doesn't limit itself to good or evil actions.

If "good" works can help expand the kingdom, that's what will be used.

I rather doubt that the natives in South America and Central America would have applauded the accomplishments of the Spanish Christian invaders.

If I remember correctly didn't they actually bring some disease and force natives into slave labor such as mining for gold and silver? They were just as much Christians as any living today.

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Frankly, I have not read this entire thread (sorry), but I did see some talk in the last few posts about the historicity of the Bible, particularly the Gospels and the book of Acts. I have seen people talking about them being obviously from eyewitness accounts. However, if this is the case, they were quite poor eyewitnesses because they blatantly contradict each other. If, on top of this, one considers that many believers believe that god inspired the authors, then the question remains as to why these contradictions are so glaringly apparent.

 

Let's look at the Gospel accounts of the supposed resurrection of Christ. Here is a snippet from a web site that is simply retelling the story of that famous Easter morning when Christ supposedly arose from the dead. The story is told using verses from the Gospels:

 

When the sun was coming up (Matt. 28:1) while it was still dark (John 20:1), Mary Magdalene (John 20:1) or Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (Matt 28:1) or "the women" [note the plural] (Luke 24:1) went to the tomb. There was an earthquake, and an angel came down and rolled the stone away (Matt. 28:2) from the entrance of the tomb and sat on it, even though it had apparently already been rolled away when Mary Magdalene had got there (John 20:1, Mark 16:4, Luke 24:2). The reason for the visit was to anoint the body with spices (Mark 16:1, Luke 24:1) or just to look at the tomb (Matt. 28:1), take your pick.

 

When she or they, take your pick, arrived, she/they witnessed the earthquake and angel coming down from heaven (Matt. 28:1), or they walked into the tomb to discover a young man dressed in white sitting on the right (Mark 16:5) or two men in bright shining clothes (Luke 24:4), take your pick.

 

At this point, John says that Mary had run back to fetch Peter and another disciple. The other gospel writers make no mention of Mary taking leave of the tomb to go back and get any of the men at this point.

 

If/when she/they returned, the angel (Mark 15:6) or the angels (Luke 24:5) is/are quoted by the gospel writers as having said one of three things. Either "He is not here, he is raised, just as he said." (Matt. 28:6) or "He is not here, he has been raised." (Mark 15:6, Luke 24:6) or "Woman, why are you crying?" (John 20:13).

 

So the woman or women ran from the tomb to tell the disciples (Matt. 28:8) or they left, too terrified to say anything to anyone (Mark 16:8), take your pick.

 

Mary Magdalene saw Jesus appear to her and decided he'd been resurrected (John 20:14-18). Or the women, having left the tomb and thinking things over, were sure that Jesus' body had been stolen, so they tried to bribe the soldiers guarding the tomb to tell them where the body had been taken (Matt. 28:11-15).

 

And we can stop there. No need to continue. And this is just looking at one supposed historical event ... the supposed indisputable resurrection of Christ.

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  • 1 month later...
Hey!!

 

I got an e-mail from God!!

 

Seriously!!

 

 

~Dear White_Raven,

Please extend my warmest salutations to your friends at Ex-Christian.net. I see Checkmate wants to see something real, be assured (and pass these assurances along to him) that I fully intend to get right to that miracle he asks for. Been pretty busy with this toothless broad who lives on grilled cheese sandwiches. Tried to send her a sign that she needs to broaden her diet, but she sold it on eBay. Also been tied up with the whole vegetative state, right to life thing. You guys are lucky....the matter is over for you. But now I've got this chick up here, and let me tell ya, healing a spirit that's been trapped in a shell it's lost all control of screaming for release for 15 years....let's just say there are some persistent issues to work out. Oh...and sorry about that whole Hurricane Katrina thing, my bathtub overflowed while I was trying to convince Schiavao she was not, in fact, a purple pineapple.

Anyway...I'd tell you about more current stuff, but I don't want you to get in trouble with "someone" who thinks I appointed him. What is this? The middle ages? Though we were done with all that 'divinely annointed' shit. Anyway, let's just say I'm trying to keep this nut from destroying civilization for the next year. You know this is one dangerous freak, right? He's almost consciously trying to bring about WWIII because he thinks Revelations was a prophesy for the future, when in fact, the author was just on shrooms. I sent Lewis Carroll down there as a hint....but I don't think anyone got it.

 

Anyway...very busy....ask Checkmate what type of miracle he would like, and I'll try to gt back to him ASAP. Gotta go...Schiavao is bobbing for goldfish in the toilet bowl again.

Laters!

God

 

LMAO!!! Can I put this on my blog? (Because you referenced Lewis Carroll). This is priceless!

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Out of this the one thing that strikes me most is the power of God thing. Where????? What does he do????? It is so obvious that believers are forced to make excuses for his lack thereof. I honestly find it rather sad. I mean seriously, babies in church dumpsters on frigid nights as service is going on, doesn't that tell them something?

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  • 4 months later...

I suppose I'm the only one who didn't know this juicy bit of history but I've got to post it. It's about David Hume:

 

Well-educated Edinburgh ministers vetoed Hume's candidacy for a philosophy chair in 1745 when he was seen as undermining the grounds of religious belief;
others futilely contemplated excommunicating him in the 1750s from a church he did not attend
. (emphasis mine)

 

How absolutely desperate must Christians be! To live and let live apparently is not good enough for them???

How about when they dug up the body of John Wycliff and burned his body before scattering his ashes in the Thames?

 

I presume that was to prevent him from being bodily resurrected. Wholly shit. (sic)

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Regarding evidence for God's existence or activity - especially what would be considered as 'miraculous' events - there's no doubt that miracles that supercede the laws of physics are no longer occurring. But that simple fact would only be your self-imposed limitation on how God works, and it would certainly not be evidence that God is no longer active. When He left planet Earth, Jesus commanded His disciples to take the Gospel of forgiveness of sins in HIs name "TO THE REMOTEST PART OF THE EARTH" and His promise to them was "I WILL BE WITH YOU UNTIL THE END OF THE AGE."

 

I really dislike arguing Theology with Christians, but I can't let this pass.

 

There are at least a couple of failed prophecies regarding Jesus' return. Matthew 16:28, Matthew 24:34. And regarding Revelations, define "soon".

 

As for actions benefitting the poor, Those are people, doing what they know to be right. Whoever has done better or worse has no bearing on the truth. If God were doing it, there would be no poor, but then Jesus never expected to do much for the poor.

 

John 12:8 "You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me." That's because he died. Sounds kind of different from "I WILL BE WITH YOU UNTIL THE END OF THE AGE."

 

Whatever. He's dead. Get over it.

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Palace Chan, I only glanced over the first link. All this "historical evidence" assumes that the New Testament was written as a sort of on-the-spot eyewitness news report. Nothing could be further from the truth. Granted, in spots it may read like this to the uneducated, but it is not that type of a narrative. These stories were written many years after the purported events and the accounts are contradictory. Just because someone says they saw something or believe something happened is not grounds enough to accept it, especially something contrary to the laws of nature, like the purported resurrection. What we have are written accounts cooked up 30 40 or 50 years after the alleged event. How reliable can they be? How do we know that it isn't all fiction? As for how Jesus died, people can and do speculate until the cows come home exactly how it happened. None of us were there, why worry about it?

I learned this when I read accounts of other humans being bodily resurrected. Like Mohammed and Caesar Augustus. The latter was witnessed by the Entire Roman Senate! How's that for a reliable bunch of witnesses?

 

But then, unless you believe that these last two gentlemen rose bodily into the heavens, why believe that Jesus did?

 

I only used two examples, but there are, I think, about a dozen.

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And regarding Revelations, define "soon".

 

 

It just occurred to me that in relative terms from a literalist perspective soon has done gone and past. In geological terms 2000 years is but a heart beat. In Adam and Eve to present terms, 2000 years represents a major chunk of time and no one can quibble or play semantics with this fact; at least not with a straight face.

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  • 1 month later...
  • Super Moderator

Shouldn't new member, FormerThings, be wearing the True Believer icon?silverpenny013Hmmm.gif

 

It appears as though he is promoting his own website where he is espousing his own (quasi)-xtian/jewish/something-or-other beliefs. (hellandjustice.com)

 

http://followingthea...a-bshem-adonai/

 

 

 

 

EDIT: Thanks, mod(s)!

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Christian Responses to Atheist Robert Ingersoll

 

http://hellandjustice.com/robert_ingersoll.htm

 

There, I put up now you can shutup!

 

"A fool has said there is no God" - King David

Wow. We're approaching the 2-year anniversary of this thread, and I'm still getting THIS shit for a reply? :loser:

 

You don't read or comprehend much, do you? You've put up nothing. I asked for a miracle and you give me the same tired excuses. With a side order of insult. ("Fool.")

 

Don't give me bullshit excuses. Don't give me links to your favorite Christian site that spews hate and hackneyed drivel instead of answers (proof). And most of all, don't prance in here full of the arrogance of the Pharisees, slinging bullshit bible verses around, and then run away as if you've proven anything.

 

You're a delusional, insecure nitwit whose safety blanket is being threatened. And just like a child, all you can think to do is pout, throw a tantrum and claim victory in a contest you haven't even BEGUN to play.

 

Your god isn't real. Your religion, like all religions, is bullshit. And YOU have nothing to support your claims except tired rhetoric, insults and threats of damnation if I don't believe in the Bogey Man.

 

Please stop wasting my time.

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It appears as though he is promoting his own website where he is espousing his own (quasi)-xtian/jewish/something-or-other beliefs. (hellandjustice.com)

 

http://followingthea...a-bshem-adonai/

 

 

 

 

EDIT: Thanks, mod(s)!

 

It also appears that if she is the owner of the site and the one writing the information, ....then he is a she :wicked:

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There, I put up now you can shutup!

Thank you for demonstrating the moral bankruptcy of the Christian position. It's always nice to be reminded that I made the right decision in brooming your dead-guy-on-a-stick cult to the curb.

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  • 1 month later...

"I'm tired. I'm tired of all the yapping and yakking, back and forth, he said, she said, bullshit of Evangelical, Liberal and Fundamentalist Christians. I'm tired of all the baseless assertions, suppositions and mind bending rationalizations." ~ Checkmate

 

I can't agree more. I just quit a church because of this very same thing. The ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran church Association) voted recently to accept gay clergy into the church. My church (the church I had been going to) decided to withdraw from the ELCA because of this. We decided to withdraw from the church.

 

It's not that I don't agree with everything the church teaches, I don't...it's just that I can't put up with a church that is so unaccepting and ridiculous that it goes against its own teachings of "Love they neighbor," and "Do unto others," that I so believe in!!! I'm not a Christian, per se, but I do believe in God.

 

I think Christians need to get a sense of humor!!! A great example of this comes in a movie I saw the other day: "... and on the 7th Day, God Rocked!" I watched it with a bunch of friends of mine (Netflix), and half of them were Christian. Now, I thought it was hilarious. It was a pun on the church, and it basically put "the church" down for its seriousness, and pokes fun at Chrisitanity and Christian music. It was awesome!! However, a group of people we were with thought it was offensive...that they weren't portraying Christians in a positive light. However, one Christian in the group made a good point: "Get a sense of humor!" Jesus would not want us to be so stuffy that we could not enjoy a good spoof of Christian music...especially if it was realistic! I just want to offer options to people. People can be good and Hindu...good and Muslim...good and Atheist...etc. People have a choice to believe in what they believe in, and like the Christian church tells us, we need to be accepting, loving, and non-judgemental towards each other. Amen!

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It's not that I don't agree with everything the church teaches, I don't...it's just that I can't put up with a church that is so unaccepting and ridiculous that it goes against its own teachings of "Love they neighbor," and "Do unto others," that I so believe in!!! I'm not a Christian, per se, but I do believe in God.

The teachings you mention are universal. They were written in stone before there was a Hebrew religion, and they span all cultures and religions.

 

If you believe in God because of the teachings, you might consider that the teachings are important for society, but we are the ones that should teach and adopt the best civilization has to offer. Religion has claimed that moral high ground underservingly, and it is through the study of other societies that we learn what humanity really means.

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  • 4 weeks later...
Guest Christian Boy

I am Christian Boy and I am new to this webpage. I trying to find out what's the big deal you have with Christianity.

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Hi Christian Boy. Are you also new to Christianity? It seems like more time spent with the Bible, and a little common sense, would answer your question.

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I am Christian Boy and I am new to this webpage. I trying to find out what's the big deal you have with Christianity.

How about for starters the vile evilness of the god you worship?

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This is kind of like a private club. Why did you stop by?

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