Robbobrob Posted October 22, 2007 Posted October 22, 2007 OK, let's follow the dots here..... Satan (Lucifer, the Devil, whatever your favorite title for Evil is) rebels in Heaven, loses, and is thrown into Hell. Hell is not a prison for the fallen angels, apparently they are allowed free, unfettered access to the Earth to interfere with Huma affairs. Now, if you do not pledge alliegence to God (and please, pick the "right" one, or is it 3?) you too will be sent to Hell. But: Humans can not leave Hell like Satan can. Why? Maybe because He is Ruler of Hell.....He loses the war, but gains his own territory? Where can I get a gig like this.....it would be like (on a much smaller scale, evil-wise) if we could have stopped Hitler from killing himself, and for "punishment" we gave him, oh, let's say, Guam to rule to his hearts content....and we'll send all our criminals, homosexuals, drug users, and other malcontents for him to torture....... BUT, why, if Satan rebelled, would he follow God's directions about how to rule Hell, including the torture of Human Souls? Why would he follow such rules set by the enemy? Doesn't the very fact that Satan does exactly what God wants him to do in Hell speak volumes about the fact that Evil has been and always will be under God's control....Biblcally speaking? If I, a "lowly Human" ran Hell, the last thing I'd do is allow my enemy, God, to dictate how I ran my kingdom. Why would Satan, who is second in power to God in all the universe, run Hell as God wants it. I don't get it.
smellincoffee Posted October 22, 2007 Posted October 22, 2007 The Christian idea of "the Devil" is absurd. In their mythology, God has this guy in charge of "praising" him, but the Devil becomes prideful and has to be kicked out. Why did God make this schmuck? He's not human; he can't be saved. Free will isn't even in the picture. "Now" the Devil is fighting this war against God, knowing he's going to lose. How stupid is this guy? He had to have been designed with stupidity in mind to be that stupid. If you read Isaiah 13 and 14, though, you'll see where the Christians messed up. The "I Wills" of Isaiah 14 are the verses they use to show how Lucifer rebelled and such. The problem is that if you read those verses in context -- both those chapters -- you'll see that the verses apply to the Babylonians. This isn't a metaphor; the Chaldeans are mentioned specifically. I suppose in Isaiah's eyes, the Babylonians were vainglorious, proud, and usurping God's role on Earth...the same thing they said of Egypt, and the same that Christians say of old Rome. The New Testament devil is completely baseless; he's a new creation and contradicts Satan's role in the Hebrew scriptures as an agent of God who works on humanity's behalf by tempting us so we can grow stronger by overcoming temptation.
GraphicsGuy Posted October 22, 2007 Posted October 22, 2007 There's absolutely nothing in the Bible to suggest that Satan is "in charge" of hell or that he and the demons make this their place of residence. It's Xian mythology that comes from way, way back. I used to argue with Xians about this even when I was Xian. There's no basis for it. Even Revelation says hell was prepared for the devil and his angels. Of course, Revelation also implies that hell is an open pit at God's feet where the smoke of the peoples' torment rises forever and ever...
mwc Posted October 22, 2007 Posted October 22, 2007 Actually, Tartartus, the lowest, worst place of Hades is where the "fallen" angels were supposed to have gone. It's mentioned all of once in the NT. The Lake of Fire is where everyone, including the "fallen" angels wind up. Prior to that you have both the personifications of Death and Hades (meaning not the places but the gods themselves) running around doing things in Revelation. This is embarrassing in the xian theology to have other gods so they get glossed in the translations. Then the places Death and Hades give up their dead so that they can go into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death. The funny thing about this is that it follows, rather closely, Egyptian mythology from the Coffin texts. There is a Lake of Fire. They referred to it as the second death (the one after your human/physical death). There's even the serpent Apophis (ie. The evil one/the devil) that must be destroyed in his battle with the "sun" (Ra). The whole thing. Whoever wrote the original Revelation "borrowed" this (most likely while living in Egypt) and then a xian came along a mucked with it later. The reason none of this theology makes sense is because they were plagiarizing a theology from nearly two thousand years earlier and trying to make it fit their nonsense religion in the process. Had they been a little more adept at writing they might have pulled it off. mwc
GraphicsGuy Posted October 22, 2007 Posted October 22, 2007 Damn...I wish I'd known more of that background when I was arguing about it!
R. S. Martin Posted October 23, 2007 Posted October 23, 2007 I don't know how accurate this is but I like the writings of the satirist Lucian of Samosata, who lived approximately 125-180 CE. In my opinion, he gives us some insight on how people saw things when the NT was being written. In his Dialogues of the Dead we get to see the Place of the Dead. It's an entire book, all online, chapter by chapter. In the first chapter there is a conversation where the Master of the Place of the Dead gives messages to his servant for the people up on the earth. The next few chapters are between dead people. Some of them are reliving the lives they had on earth. Others don't like listening to the same old stories all the time and kick up a rokus. The Master doesn't like the bickering. All the dead people seem to be males. No fires. No gods. No tree or river of life. No devils--horned or unhorned, with or without pitchforks. So I'm thinking, if this is the wildest stories a satirist could come up with a century after Jesus was supposedly preaching, then maybe Jesus was out of his mind, as his family claimed--what with his visions of fire pits where rich men ended up because they didn't share their feasts with the poor. The Master of the Place of the Dead sent a message via his servant up to the earth to the poor people that the poor and rich are alike down there, so the poor will be quite comfortable in the presence of the formerly rich. This is really tame compared to the Christian hell and I think folk here might like to know about it. Apparently the Christian hell was not the only alternative to heaven in Mediteranean Mythology of the time.
mwc Posted October 23, 2007 Posted October 23, 2007 Of course, Revelation also implies that hell is an open pit at God's feet where the smoke of the peoples' torment rises forever and ever... Just before the sixth hour is the portrayal of the Judgment hall. This is the only representation of the Judgment of the dead in any of the Books of the Netherworld. Osiris is enthroned on a stepped dais and the blessed dead stand on the steps of the dais. The enemies who are consigned to the "Place of Annihilation" lie beneath their feet. Does this sound familiar? This is from the "Book of Gates." mwc
sojourner Posted October 23, 2007 Posted October 23, 2007 This is my first post on the forum as a brand new member so be gentle haha I have a big problem with eternal torment and hell too and I believe in God - just not the mean nasty God that would make Hitler and Stalin look like nice guys. I think the first post in this thread should be preached in more churches haha perhaps people would begin to think......nver know......could happen sojourner
mwc Posted October 23, 2007 Posted October 23, 2007 This is my first post on the forum as a brand new member so be gentle haha I have a big problem with eternal torment and hell too and I believe in God - just not the mean nasty God that would make Hitler and Stalin look like nice guys. I think the first post in this thread should be preached in more churches haha perhaps people would begin to think......nver know......could happen Well, so then you don't want the xian god preached but some different "god" (or the gnostic xian god perhaps). Which "god" would this be and what churches would this "god" be preached in? What do you want people to "think?" Just thought I'd ask since it wasn't clear from your post. BTW, welcome aboard. mwc
sojourner Posted October 23, 2007 Posted October 23, 2007 Hi I just think athiests or ex-christians bring up very good points that most church goers need to hear and need to be challanged by because in all honestly at least to me, the hateful vendictive God that will roast people forever for not pronouncing his name correctly to me is only held by those that never really think....never take apart what they believe, what they parrot and preach to others. personally Im enjoying reading this site and I do believe in God kept
Astreja Posted October 23, 2007 Posted October 23, 2007 Hi, Sojourner! I, too, have big, big problems with the concept of nasty, vindictive gods. Why are so many believers so willing to slander their chosen deity by describing it as a torturer? That doesn't sound like the behaviour of a "supreme being".
sojourner Posted October 23, 2007 Posted October 23, 2007 Hi Astreja nice to meet ya! I think so many of us just wanted so much to be part of a group, to be accepted, to belong somewhere and are easily led to believe whatever we find that goes with the territory.....I know I was a christian for 20 years before I questioned eternal torment! Can you believe that? What a clone Id become, just believed what ever was preached to me and trusted that they knew what they were talking about. I ignored half of the bible. You know the verses that would say things like , All died in Adam, All made alive in Christ! Or that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the World, especially of those that believe. anyhoo, I think we just parrot for so long, a child does that you know, just repeats what he has learned. But someday we actually begin having an original thought and it shocks us and entices us and leads us to begin to question some things but many will get afraid and run back to the familiar pew and dare not listen to those thoughts cause we might......omgod.......end up deceived or a heretic outcast no longer able to belong to our group we love so much. Or perhaps end up an ex-christian like many here at this forum. However, I will be honest, I am reading deeper spirituality if you will out of some of the ex-christians on this forum then you would hear in a pew in most churches on any given sunday. go figure Just my take on it sojourner
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