Why Believe Anything?

[GraphicsGuy]

For some reason I have been reluctant to take the full plunge and say that I don't believe in any god/higher power period. I tend to consider myself as a "skeptical agnostic" and lean heavily towards non-belief rather than belief. One of my Facebook friends describes his situation very well in his "religious views:"

 

"Functionally atheist, but technically agnostic"

 

Agnostic, of course, is having the point of view that you have no proof of the existence or non-existence of a god(s). Definitely how I feel, but is there really any point to this "fence-sitting" on the issue?

 

My parents and most of my extended family members are...hmm...open-minded Xians I guess. My mother doesn't even particularly believe that the Bible is the specific word of god (certainly not literally at least). She believes that it is most symbolic, metaphorical, that the meaning behind the words is more important than the words themselves.

 

My father is a former pastor, raised very fundamentalist, but certainly more concerned with people than with doctrine now. He is a full-time prison chaplin and never wants to officially pastor again. I keep discovering all these new things about him lately. He admires Charles Darwin (has for decades) and has no problem with evolution being fact. He actually encourages me with my skeptics group and my hard line of questioning. He says the church needs a wake up call to the reality of the world instead of hiding behind their religious rhetoric.

 

I have other extended family - aunts, uncles, cousins - who are also asking questions and definitely not rabidly adhering to their original non-flexible ways of thinking.

 

I apologize for this seemingly incoherant babble, but this is part of the lead up into my question.

 

So, what I am trying to understand is why believe in god or any form of Xianity at all? If you alter your Xian beliefs so much that a fundy wouldn't even consider you a Xian, why believe at all? If you believe that hell isn't real, why believe at all? If you believe that god truly is loving and all-accepting, why believe at all?

 

Does faith matter at all when it is altered so drastically?

 

I tell my family members flat out that I don't know what to believe at this point in my life, but that thought is becoming more and more, "I don't know WHY I should believe anything." I am more at peace with myself than ever before in my life...then again, perhaps peace with oneself is what matters here. Faith still brings peace to them, whereas for me it brings chaos into my life.

 

Thoughts?

[hereticzero]

Faith is a personal thing Christians have made into a mandatory doctrine. I cannot have faith in something that comes from a brutal religion like Christianity.

[Skiergirl24]

I think, if you are at peace with not believing in anything, and that makes sense to you, then you should go with that!

 

I am agnostic and looking for evidence of a being. I have not found anything concrete. And I am running into brick walls. Everyone who believes in God (or most anyway) have a set of rigid beliefs :Christianity, Judaism, Muslims etc. They all have books with creation stories, rules and regulations, prophets etc. That is not the type of God I am looking for. I am looking, simply, for a higher power of some sort. I think, if there is a God, he or she is not the God of the Bible, the Quran or the Torah. One thing that I keep coming back to is Aristotle's concept of the "unmoved mover." (Metaphysics). This is it in a nutshell:

 

Aristotle's argument for the existence of the unmoved mover is this:

 

There exists movement in the world

Things that move were set into motion by something else

If everything that moves was caused to move by something else, there would be an infinite chain of causes. This can't happen.

Thus, there must have been something that caused the first movement.

This first cause cannot itself have been moved, or the infinite chain would start over again.

Thus, there must be an unmoved mover.

 

 

There are a lot of arguments against this theory and I can understand the basis of those arguments. But for me, the one thing that I keep coming back to is that I just don't think the world happened by chance. I think there is some force behind all of this. But that is all I really believe.

[Vigile]

If you're like me you will just wake up one day and realize you are an atheist.

 

Sounds like your dad is a very cool guy.

[GraphicsGuy]

Faith is a personal thing Christians have made into a mandatory doctrine.

 

You're right, Heretic. They've made it so mandatory that it just becomes completely ingrained into their existence. Perhaps that is why it's so hard to let go of in some cases. It becomes the very grounding for your personality - it's hardwired. Wow, maybe I was lucky...my core beliefs were just shattered into a million pieces...the final step of saying, "Fuck it all!" was the easy part. Going after Xians on mad rampages crying, begging, pleading for sensible answers was the most difficult.

 

I think, if you are at peace with not believing in anything, and that makes sense to you, then you should go with that!

 

Yeah, perhaps just being comfortable, at peace, is what really matters overall. As a Xian I put myself through hell. The mental self-torture alone made life completely unbearable. If comfort is the issue, then maybe fence sitting is okay. Some days I'm convinced there's nothing out there, other days I'm wondering if there might be (hmm...though never convinced that there is...).

 

If you're like me you will just wake up one day and realize you are an atheist.

 

Sounds like your dad is a very cool guy.

 

Just "woke up" an athiest, huh? Well, I certainly won't reject the possibility of it happening...

 

As for my dad, yeah, he's certainly turned into a different person over the years. There were times he was as fundy as many Xian pastors. Really though, the credit goes to my mother for him turning out the way he is. Without her bucking the system and questioning and refusing to be the typical Xian wife (pastor's wife especially) AND without her huge level of tolerance and patience there is no way he'd be like he is today.

[Vigile]

LOL, well, keep in mind I was an agnostic for a number of years first. My simple statement doesn't betray the hard work that went in before. It is true though, one day I just realized that I don't believe in gods anymore. I realized that evidence for them is less than evidence for a Santa and I had to conclude that I just don't believe. I'm not agnostic about Zues; never have been. I'm not agnostic about the Toothfairy; haven't been since I was 6. I'm not agnostic about deities. I don't make a claim, I just don't believe because there are no valid reasons I can find that make it reasonable to do so.

[upstarter]

I think it's a continuum. I think, if you asked, you'd find that a lot of former xtians will tell you that they moved from faith to some form of agnostism, to atheism, or they sit somewhere on the continuum.

 

It's hard to shake it off in one big moment. We spent our lives, our childhoods especially (some of us) being taught that the world was a certain way. That God was in charge and he wanted us to live a certain way and he'd take care of us. So then we wake up and say, so much of this stuff is bullshit and harmful and hateful, I'm not going to buy it anymore. But part of us says, hmmm... okay but maybe that God who is going to protect me and care for me, maybe he's still there. It's comforting to cling to that. I did, for years. I'd say things like, well I'm not a Christian anymore but I still think "there's something out there", or "I believe in God, I just don't think he is really all that interested in me and my little life."

 

But slowly, through reading and drifting farther from the xtian world, I realized I didn't need the comfort of believing in a supreme being anymore. And like you said, I think because I was raised as a fundy, there was only one way to be a believer, so really why cling to any of it.

 

Does the label really matter? If you are voting with your feet, and doing what you can to keep the fundy right from causing harm in the world, is it hurting anyone if you secretly believe there might be a God? I don't think so. Will you function differently in life if you decide there really isn't a God?

 

Personally I felt freed by finally just letting it all go. But that's my personal journey.

 

Heather

[Amethyst]

If you think about it, religious people are the ones who have made labels a big deal, not secular types. They just want to lump everyone into a box so they can point fingers and say who's going to hell and who isn't. The label doesn't really matter that much. It's how you treat other people that does.

[Mythra]

I think one of the toughest things is accepting the atheist label - it carries a lot of baggage with it - especially if you come from a religious background.

 

Graphicsguy - sounds like you're taking a similar track in your thinking that many of us did. You have to sneak up on the "no god" idea, until one morning you wake up and it hits you - "THERE IS NO GOD" - and you wonder why it took so long to figure it out.

 

I don't really like the atheist banner much - although I guess that's what I am now. I just think of it as the fact that I reject all supernatural claims - unless I see convincing evidence to the contrary. Funny thing is, I don't feel much different than when I was a religious freak. Haven't grown any fangs, horns, or tails.

 

Literally every "supernatural" phenomena I've found has a natural explanation, if you look for it, including god.

 

Oh, and I agree with Vigile - your dad sounds like a very cool guy.

[SWIM]

I really don't think you should "believe" anything at all without proof. Speculation is fun though, but not to everyone. To some it makes them more confused, I guess because some *need* to believe in something.

[R. S. Martin]

Does faith matter at all when it is altered so drastically?

 

I tell my family members flat out that I don't know what to believe at this point in my life, but that thought is becoming more and more, "I don't know WHY I should believe anything." I am more at peace with myself than ever before in my life...then again, perhaps peace with oneself is what matters here. Faith still brings peace to them, whereas for me it brings chaos into my life.

 

Thoughts?

 

A number of thoughts.

 

1. I was coming up with all kinds of defenses for why one could or should believe when faith is altered. Then I realized that there is no obligation. The thing going on in my head is the argument that people who do believe this kind of Christianity are real Christians even though fundamentalists don't accept them as such. Fundies are, from a historical perspective, the newbies. The more traditional ones like the Lutherans and RCC have been around for centuries and can hardly be denied the Christian label. The fundamentalist movement is about one century old.

 

2. No if you don't want to believe you certainly don't have to.

 

3. For many years I didn't know what I believed. I identified as Christian because the cost of deconversion was too great to do it without being absolutley sure. However, I had no idea what I believed. I just hid behind a facade of religious behaviour and people thought I was a strong believer.

 

4. Are you asking whether peace with oneself is what matters? It was THE bottom line with me. Maybe you are younger than I was by the time I made the break, but the need for peace with myself was practically a life and death issue by the time I did it.

 

You have strong family support, which is making things much easier for you. However, I still think peace with oneself is surely a good barometer to go by. I feel deeply saddened by the choices made by some of my siblings. Like me, some of them felt a dissatisfaction with the church we were born into. However, they were dumbed down by others so that they gave up their desires for "greener pastures." Surrendering conflict does give one a sense of peace, but surely nothing is better than the deep inner peace of being one's true self.

 

5. For those of us who find the term atheist carries too much baggage, I think we can say "I'm not religious." My siblings never asked if I was atheist; they assumed I was and treated me accordingly, even though I had come to no such conclusions or decisions at the time. All I had said was that I did not believe in the God who led the Israelites out of Egypt. That was all they needed to hear. What they didn't know was that I had not believed in that kind of God for decades. I'd probably been an agnostic deist for decades but didn't know enough philosophy to descibe it. However, I like the term "I'm not religious."

[Dhampir]

My take on agnosticism is that in 99% of cases it is a worthless term. Anyone that calls their self an agnostic, might as well call their self a human being. Why? Because although agnosticism is an avowed position, if you probe anyone, believer or atheist, long enough, you will find an admitted uncertainty somewhere, regarding the existence of god. Which means that EVERYONE is agnostic.

 

So, I find that an avowed agnostic is actually more aptly described as a 'weak' atheist. At that point, some other reason is needed to call ones self an agnostic, and I find that reason is usually emotional, or just convenient, as in " I don't want the social stigma of atheism" or something like that.

[Amethyst]

5. For those of us who find the term atheist carries too much baggage, I think we can say "I'm not religious." My siblings never asked if I was atheist; they assumed I was and treated me accordingly, even though I had come to no such conclusions or decisions at the time. All I had said was that I did not believe in the God who led the Israelites out of Egypt. That was all they needed to hear. What they didn't know was that I had not believed in that kind of God for decades. I'd probably been an agnostic deist for decades but didn't know enough philosophy to descibe it. However, I like the term "I'm not religious."

 

Agree with Ruby, I like that term and generally use it because it covers all the bases.

[GraphicsGuy]

If you think about it, religious people are the ones who have made labels a big deal, not secular types.

 

Thanks for everyone's replies!

 

I liked what Amethyst said about "labels" - it certainly seems true. What does it really matter WHAT you believe when it comes to day to day living? The religious sector are the only ones going around asking, "Do you believe in Jesus?" Xians specifically of course. Has anyone ever had a Muslim or other religion try to convert them? I haven't...

[SWIM]

If you think about it, religious people are the ones who have made labels a big deal, not secular types.

 

Thanks for everyone's replies!

 

I liked what Amethyst said about "labels" - it certainly seems true. What does it really matter WHAT you believe when it comes to day to day living? The religious sector are the only ones going around asking, "Do you believe in Jesus?" Xians specifically of course. Has anyone ever had a Muslim or other religion try to convert them? I haven't...

 

 

Only people who ever tried to convert me were door to door morons and JW.

 

On the rare occasion I talk to them, they leave wishing they had not come in the first place, and NEVER come back... hehe

 

Of course, showing them my gun collection in a polite way while basically expaining they are full of shit helps...

 

[R. S. Martin]

My take on agnosticism is that in 99% of cases it is a worthless term. Anyone that calls their self an agnostic, might as well call their self a human being. Why? Because although agnosticism is an avowed position, if you probe anyone, believer or atheist, long enough, you will find an admitted uncertainty somewhere, regarding the existence of god. Which means that EVERYONE is agnostic.

 

So, I find that an avowed agnostic is actually more aptly described as a 'weak' atheist. At that point, some other reason is needed to call ones self an agnostic, and I find that reason is usually emotional, or just convenient, as in " I don't want the social stigma of atheism" or something like that.

 

I've sat in on real life atheist/agnostic discussions where feelings ran high. Someone mentioned on this thread about religion being so strong on labels. If I remember correctly, this is by no means the first time you denigrate agnosticism. There are people on these forums who feel very strongly about identifying as agnostic. I disagree with some of the definitions littering the air (this includes some of yours as well as some others) but isn't that one big reason we left religion behind--to get rid of the labels that divide?

 

I've seen people professing the same things under different labels. I had to bite my tongue pretty hard and remind myself about what is important in life. I decided peace between humans was more important than what imaginary labels we pin onto our lapels. I think it's okay if you want to identify as a weak atheist. I probably come across as anything from nearly believer to strong atheist, depending what is being discussed and who I am being compared to. In my opinion, whether or not god exists is beside the point, call me what you like.

[R. S. Martin]

5. For those of us who find the term atheist carries too much baggage, I think we can say "I'm not religious." My siblings never asked if I was atheist; they assumed I was and treated me accordingly, even though I had come to no such conclusions or decisions at the time. All I had said was that I did not believe in the God who led the Israelites out of Egypt. That was all they needed to hear. What they didn't know was that I had not believed in that kind of God for decades. I'd probably been an agnostic deist for decades but didn't know enough philosophy to descibe it. However, I like the term "I'm not religious."

 

Agree with Ruby, I like that term and generally use it because it covers all the bases.

 

Hey Amethyst! what goes around comes around, right? I think you and I have been in this kind of discussion on here before this and I might have learned this response from you. Who knows?

[R. S. Martin]

If you think about it, religious people are the ones who have made labels a big deal, not secular types.

 

Thanks for everyone's replies!

 

I liked what Amethyst said about "labels" - it certainly seems true. What does it really matter WHAT you believe when it comes to day to day living? The religious sector are the only ones going around asking, "Do you believe in Jesus?" Xians specifically of course. Has anyone ever had a Muslim or other religion try to convert them? I haven't...

 

Yeah, I think there's more important stuff to worry about in life than the god question. I think there was a time when everybody believed in a divine realm because that was how people's minds and understanding of reality worked. But now-a-days we take things apart analyze everything. Scholars say fundamentalism could not have existed before the 1800s because the mindset for such black and white analytical thinking did not exist. I think perhaps some of us are moving toward a more holistic kind of mindset where the god question just doesn't matter anymore. The fundies don't like that. They want to keep things all neatly organized in their cubby-holes. I know lots of people are far better read than I am but right now I am reading eighteenth century Enlightenement stuff and I find it--enlightening. The issues they dealt with. It was as though they had finally found The Answers--Science with its predictable Numbers and Rules was going to control the Superstions and Fleeting Shadows with their Ghosts. Society could be understood in patterns and natural laws. All the sciences were burgeoning new and exciting stuff three hundred years ago.

 

Today...been there, done that. Disillussioned by a century of almost constant warfare, our Western Civilization, such as it is, has lost much of it haughtiness. We KNOW we don't have the answers to the world's problems. The fundies are not convinced. In fact, they are convinced that THEY do have The Answer, just like our West European forebears in general. The defining characteristic for them is right doctrine. Somehow, moral character is attached to right doctrine. Blind, dogmatic doctrine automatically generates the kind of personality that makes this world a better place. Listen fundy! that is the kind of question philosophers were wrestling with in 1750. Wake up and look at your calendars.

 

Sorry if this is off-topic. I think it is some of the philosophy behind the scenes.

[Dhampir]

I'm not trying to denigrate the term so much as attempting to show that as a definition of a person, it is really invalid, because it applies so much more universally than people seem to realize. Doesn't matter how much of a believer you are, doesn't matter how much of a non-believer you are, the term still applies, and therefore, to avow one's self of it is the same, in my estimation at least, as trying to pick the "human" out of the line up of people.

 

Even when I was wavering between belief and non-belief, it grated against me to ever have to call myself agnostic for that reason.

 

There are people on these forums who feel very strongly about identifying as agnostic.

I'm sure, They don't realize that the term atheist says exactly the same thing, the ones among them that continually assert that "I don't know and you don't either". All's I'm sayin' is it's superfluous. Not that I'm going to fight anyone to change, but I will continue to say it, until convinced otherwise.

[R. S. Martin]

I'm not strong enough in philosophy and the etymology of these specific terms to convince you otherwise. However, I know your definitions disagree with some of the things I've read in articles in places like Internet Infidels or the Secular Web. I also learned from exC members who have been atheists for twenty or thirty years that agnosticism and atheism look at the god question from two totally different perspectives, not on a spectrum from belief to unbelief as many people seem to think.

 

I've read articles that mention weak-strong atheism, or hard-soft atheism. Some articles use agnostic to describe atheism. Or atheist to describe agnosticism. There's solid arguments behind all positions. The whole caboodle makes my head spin. I have yet to see an authoritative author who supports your argument. I'm not sure all of these authors are considered authoritative by the atheist community. You may want to do your own research.

 

If you need a place to start your search click on my sig.

[Dhampir]

I know a lot of what the 'authorities' say about the subject, but my conclusions are what I have taken away from the term itself. Of course there's more to it than what I have written so far, but a good deal of the general gist can be taken away from what I already have.

[michie_s]

I have only been out of xianity since June although I think I stopped believing months before that. People on this site gave me great advice about not trying to rush into identifying myself as one thing or another in terms of where I stood in my non-belief, so I just let it go in the beginning.

 

At this point in time, although I have not been out long, I think I'm probably closer to atheism than anything else. Likely because I spent so much time as a fundie studying the bible and being completely engrossed in xian lifestyle that when the "scales fell off" - to use a xian euphemism - it was a shock to my system and I knew that I could never go back or believe in the existence of any kind of god again. I've also spent lots of time researching the history of xianity and other religions that I see them all for what they are - myths and fables!

 

So even though I have not made the leap in declaring myself so, I think I am in my mind! Maybe it is the stigma associated with atheism that I'm not ready to face yet (the rest of my family and most of my friends are still xian) but probably I'll wake up one day and it will be a non-issue. In the end I think it's what you are comfortable with. Hope that helps!

[R. S. Martin]

Michie_s, thanks for sharing more about yourself. I've seen your name on here time and again. This helps me get a better sense of who you are. I guess you would have been seeking to know who you are yourself, right? Same here. Maybe this has been said on this thread before, but this might be where you're at, too, graphicsguy. Like it's a process. There are so many issues to work through, and so many levels. Psychological as well as theological and social. Deconversion is no child's play.

[GraphicsGuy]

Yeah, thanks for the replies. I think I've somewhat decided that it is about comfort, peace with oneself. The label doesn't matter - though I may use one to aid the feeble-minded believers when necessary.

[R. S. Martin]

Yeah, thanks for the replies. I think I've somewhat decided that it is about comfort, peace with oneself. The label doesn't matter - though I may use one to aid the feeble-minded believers when necessary.

 

Hey congats, graphicsguy! Sounds like you're finding your feet, so to speak. You're becoming one of us.